LCA News and Discussions

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Jun 2010 00:22

^^ Can some1 say OUTSOURCE!!!! ISRAEL ELTA comes to mind!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2010 01:48

A development partner (DP !!!!!) for "detailed design, development and realisation".

Long, long way to go to be self reliant?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jun 2010 01:52

They should hook up with ELTA for their 2052 front-end and do the backend processing at LRDE. The article says they are looking for antenna development. That is the biggest challenge in AESA radars!

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jun 2010 02:01

This is very disappointing.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 25 Jun 2010 03:44

I have a question, what will LRDE develop if it is expecting its development partner to do a "detailed design, development and realisation" of:
(a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna,
(b) transmit/receive modules/groups,
(c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface,
(d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and
(e) array calibration/BITE among other areas

maybe develop the software?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 25 Jun 2010 03:55

babbupandey wrote:I have a question, what will LRDE develop if it is expecting its development partner to do a "detailed design, development and realisation" of:
(a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna,
(b) transmit/receive modules/groups,
(c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface,
(d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and
(e) array calibration/BITE among other areas

maybe develop the software?

Processing the signals obtained from the antenna is no easy task. It has to identify the targets amid clutter and present them on the display and identify the most serious threats. It will also have to interact with the weapons suite and send appropriate target locations, and probably guide them to the target too. All these are no easy tasks too.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2010 04:05

^^^

The software could have some commonality with other "types" would they not? (Just curious, not related to the LiveFist post.)

Coming to the post and it's content, the issue seems to be hardware related. And even more, the issue seems (to me) that India expected some break through via either ToT or offsets. I am inclined to believe that they did not get that help, thus this timely move.

?????????????

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 25 Jun 2010 04:11

There we go, moaning and bitching again.

All this means is that DRDO/ADA doesn't want the development of an AESA antenna to be a stumbling block for LCA MarkII. It doesn't mean that they aren't developing the AESA antenna tech on their own, or that eventually the LCA radar would be completely indigenous.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Jun 2010 04:20

^^ Got any Proof for the above statement, that DRDO will have a completely indigenous antenna or is WORKING on one???

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 25 Jun 2010 04:40

putnanja wrote: Processing the signals obtained from the antenna is no easy task. It has to identify the targets amid clutter and present them on the display and identify the most serious threats. It will also have to interact with the weapons suite and send appropriate target locations, and probably guide them to the target too. All these are no easy tasks too.

So basically LRDE is concentrating on developing the software portion of AESA and getting the hardware done by the third party.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 25 Jun 2010 04:49

here is one more image of lca AESA, from aero india, in one corner it is clearly written that this is aesa for tejas,,it has about 876 t/r modules check it out...

http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iGO4cv1GqO0/S ... G_1074.JPG

please someone make this image smaller

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Jun 2010 05:05

man its never going to stop is it ? When they try everything on their own and take time, people bitch and moan. When they seek assistance and help to overcome that and meet timelines, people still bitch and moan..I wonder what people who claim to be "disappointed" were expecting..everything ready and just waiting to be tested and integrated perhaps ?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 25 Jun 2010 05:16

I think it's high time somebody posted an objective report of how much of AESA will be indigenous and try to give a break up. How of software will be Indian and how much imported, how many components will be imported and what is the complexity of development of that imported hardware.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 25 Jun 2010 05:17

saptarishi wrote:here is one more image of lca AESA, from aero india, in one corner it is clearly written that this is aesa for tejas,,it has about 876 t/r modules check it out...

please someone make this image smaller

I think we have already discussed this image earlier, thanks for posting it here though. It serves as a ready reference

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jun 2010 05:42

An exclusive first-time account of India's indigenous AESA radar effort for the Light Combat Aircraft -- never before seen images, schematics, graphics and more. Also a post on the phased-array radar effort for India's indigenous AEW&C platform. Both posts coming up later today.

This is what with Aroor goaded us. Ok there is new to be seen images, but where is the story on first-time account of indigenous AESA? He seems to got his hands on few ppt pics and rather than making an detailed attempt on a particular subject he just moved away sharing few pics with little justification for all the hype he created...and finally he linked this to DP creating an impression that all that indigenous is nothing but inviting bids for the AESA...

another journalistic misdemeanour.......

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 25 Jun 2010 05:52

LCA completes another 19 test flights

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Jun 2010 05:57

Kartik wrote:man its never going to stop is it ? When they try everything on their own and take time, people bitch and moan. When they seek assistance and help to overcome that and meet timelines, people still bitch and moan..I wonder what people who claim to be "disappointed" were expecting..everything ready and just waiting to be tested and integrated perhaps ?

as the good Air Marshall said, if you promise us the moon, and can't deliver after years of countless R&D, people will rightly bitch and moan (case in point DOES NOT point to LCA, or ARJUN as we all know how many times the ASR was changed!)

Umm, not entirely TRUE! Seeking assistance is ONE thing, and BUYING/INTEGRATING a THIRD party hardware is ANOTHER.. It's a completely different thing when they can't even decide on what engines to use on LCA, hence simulated testing with both models to NOT affect any more delays??? (this will definitely be a political decision aas technologically they both qualify). AESA a crucial technology, which every country(Russia, France, Europe) except the good ol' USofA is playing catch-up and have not YET mastered to it fullest potential(Sweden not included for obvious reasons) and India aiming for an AESA radar possibly achieving it in LCA MKII is commendable to say the least, should absolutely have a concurrent effort of develop their OWN indigenous HARDWARE capability for radars... Making the SMALL/LOW POWER T/R Modules are the HEART of AESA (does not mean that Software means nothing, infact it is the brain that makes the Heart beat! amongst millions of other things) but, if you give me a bs excuse like in order to meet the deadlines, they need to tie up with a foreign vendor I PERSONALLY don't buy that!!! But then again to each to it's own., we all know where you stand with LCA and rightly so If I may add... I personally think getting CONSULTANCY either by the Yehudis, or ze Francios, would have made a lot more sense, because the learning curve would have been tremendous and having started the AESA program (as far as I know and to give DRDO the benefit of the doubt) in 2007 (might have been earlier) and having a product up and running by 2012/2013 means a total of 5/6 years which include R&D, Tech demonstration, and a Production version which seems capable to atleast reach IOC....

This is what my "disappointment" was expecting!!!

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 25 Jun 2010 06:27

Range of radars

The LRDE was roundly criticised for not successfully developing, in collaboration with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, the multi-mode radar for the Light Combat Aircraft Tejas. But the Israeli radar now being fitted on the Tejas has an antenna designed by the LRDE – the slotted waveguide array antenna. The LRDE is also undertaking the design and development of the active electronically scanned array (AESA) technology. The AESA technology allows ships and aircraft to broadcast powerful radar signals while they themselves remain under stealth. The AESA’s basic building block is the TR module, a self-contained, miniaturised transmitter and receiver that makes up one of the AESA antenna elements. In a bid to develop the AESA, the LRDE has developed L and S band TR modules.

According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE’s LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have already been launched. Ramesh also disclosed that the LSTAR (Long-range Solid State Active Phase Array Radar), which is a sort of a forerunner to India’s Airborne Early Warning and Control System programme, has been approved by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification, integrated and tested on ground-based systems, and qualified for airborne applications. And a production agency, Astra Microwave, has been identified for it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jun 2010 06:33

saptarishi wrote:here is one more image of lca AESA, from aero india, in one corner it is clearly written that this is aesa for tejas,,it has about 876 t/r modules check it out...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iGO4cv1GqO0/S ... G_1074.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iGO4cv1GqO0/S ... G_1074.JPG

please someone make this image smaller

You can make the image smaller yourself by just posting a link rather than an inline image.

It is quite irritating to have to scroll to see an image

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Jun 2010 07:05

babbupandey wrote:I think it's high time somebody posted an objective report of how much of AESA will be indigenous and try to give a break up. How of software will be Indian and how much imported, how many components will be imported and what is the complexity of development of that imported hardware.

Why don't you take up this task?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 25 Jun 2010 07:15

LCA's Naval version set for launch
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ch/399328/

LCA's Naval version set for launch
BS Reporter / Chennai/ Bangalore June 25, 2010, 0:00 IST

The first Naval prototype (NP1) of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in partnership with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), is set for launch on July 6 this year.

The Naval version of the LCA (Navy) capable of operation from an aircraft carrier, is touted as the only carrier borne aircraft in the light category, which can be deployed in various operational role equipment like the beyond visual range (BVR) missile, anti shipping missiles, conventional bombs, air defence guns and drop tanks.
According to a statement from Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Nirmal Verma would be the Chief Guest at the function to mark the ‘Roll-Out’ of LCA, post which the aircraft will be ready to undergo various system integration tests including ground runs, taxi trial and flight.

“The event ‘Roll-Out’ is a significant milestone when the aircraft is brought out of the HAL’s Aircraft Research and Development Centre (ARDC) design hangar (where the aircraft is actually assembled part by part), and is now ready to undergo the phase of systems integration tests leading to ground runs, taxi trials and flight,” it said.

The LCA (Navy) is the first indigenous effort to build a complete ‘air element’ for the Indian Navy. The aircraft would be flying with the GE-F-404-IN20 engine, and is specifically designed for ski jump take off and arrested landing, with high landing loads compared to its Air Force counterpart.

“The main aim of LCA (Navy) NP1 and its Fighter counterpart (NP2) is to prove itself with its technologies incorporated as a formidable platform to be a suitable replacement to the ageing fleet of Sea Harriers at a later date in a derivative MK2 configuration with a higher thrust engine and optimised mass”, the statement said.

This aircraft, with considerable technology and punch for years to come, is being designed to operate from the future indigenous aircraft carriers the Navy plans to acquire.

In 2003, the government accorded the formal sanction to start the Naval version of the LCA, which aim at replacing the MiG series of aircraft currently operated by the IAF.

The first stage of development includes design and fabrication of one Trainer and one Fighter, NP1 and NP2 respectively, along with a shore based test facility (SBTF) at Goa, to simulate carrier take off and arrested landing.

A complete airframe called Structural Test Specimen required for structural testing is also being tested as part of the programme.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 25 Jun 2010 10:31

What I gather from the news is that the LRDE developed modules were not up to the mark, and it was deemed impossible to rectify/qualify them by the 2014 deadline. Hence the DP route. And my instincts tell me that we are going to buy the 2052 system with some form of ToT.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2010 10:43

ToT and DP do not mix well. To meet a deadline the prior should be a better fit. Thr latter will work too, however, the challenge of making something that is not quite mature work properly will remain.

No matter what seems like this is a rec for our Mk-II, which by itself is very good news.

They will make it for sure.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 25 Jun 2010 11:27

Kartik wrote:man its never going to stop is it ? When they try everything on their own and take time, people bitch and moan. When they seek assistance and help to overcome that and meet timelines, people still bitch and moan..I wonder what people who claim to be "disappointed" were expecting..everything ready and just waiting to be tested and integrated perhaps ?

Whatever, Kartik. Before you bitch and moan with an equally common viewpoint, and one that anyone with a brain can comprehend, as Kanson pointed out some tremendous liberties were taken by said journalist on describing the AESA. Everyone knows how important the Tx/Rx modules are to an AESA. They are still not "indigenous".

Added later: Since you asked a question about what "people" were expecting then this person should answer. I was expecting a Tx/Rx module. Software, as important as it is in an AESA - I'm not denying that, can be improved gradually. Mrinal has mentioned earlier that a lot has been already been achieved and Aroor's post seems to tangentially acknowledge that with a meagre "radar has begun development in the country". The Tx/Rx module is to the AESA as the single crystal blade is to the Kaveri.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Jun 2010 12:20

Gurus help me understand, what is the effort involved in reusing the work done on XV2004 on the LCA specific AESA?

Last chaiwala reports placed the XV2004 system in advanced stages of trails. How different are the fighter based AESA or the one mounted on copters?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 25 Jun 2010 13:47

I agree with Kansonji. I don't know what has happened to Mr. Shiv Aroor....Nowadays, He seems to more interested in getting visitors to his website.
His new report on the AESA has nothing new to say. This thing about the Development Partner is nothing new. He himself broke that story some months ago. So, why sing the same old song by writing cheesy headlines.
The same thing happened with his previous posts where he claimed to present exclusive details about India's UAV programme. And what he did exactly. He just posted the slides from Mr. PS Krishnan's presentation on UAV's.

I am really disappointed

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 26 Jun 2010 02:34

India Thought Leaders : Ownership Feeling Among Tejas Users Has Increased, Says ADA Chief
Aviation Week

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 26 Jun 2010 02:39

VIDEO: Kaveri Turbofan Demonstrating Dry Thrust & Afterburner - http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/06/vi ... g-dry.html

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 26 Jun 2010 02:44

babbupandey wrote:I have a question, what will LRDE develop if it is expecting its development partner to do a "detailed design, development and realisation" of:
(a) antenna panel constisting of main antenna, guard antenna and sidelobe cancellation antenna,
(b) transmit/receive modules/groups,
(c) RF distribution network consisting of RF manifold/combiners, RF interface,
(d) antenna/beam control chain consisting of T/R control and T/R group control, and
(e) array calibration/BITE among other areas

maybe develop the software?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 26 Jun 2010 03:33

share the joke sir...

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 26 Jun 2010 03:52

Juggi G wrote:India Thought Leaders : Ownership Feeling Among Tejas Users Has Increased, Says ADA Chief
Aviation Week

Now there's a brilliant interview. What a joy to read!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 Jun 2010 07:36

What a great manager/lead he is ... reminds me of the Dr.Satish Dhawan/Kalam episode

I don’t want to comment on the media, though at times we did think of putting [in] a firefighting plan to counter one-sided remarks in the press. Later, we decided against it, knowing that it would divert our focus from the main goal. Yes, we had difficulties as we were attempting to do something that has never been done in this country. Yes, we slipped because we had to face many challenges from different quarters while mastering technologies. But don’t forget the fact that my team took the blow but finally delivered.

Fit case for a Padma Bhushan/Shri

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jun 2010 09:03

Vishal Jolapara wrote:VIDEO: Kaveri Turbofan Demonstrating Dry Thrust & Afterburner - http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/06/vi ... g-dry.html

Is that a 3D vectoring nozzle in the end?

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Jun 2010 09:22

^ Nope that is the nozzle throat opening up with increase in thrust , no change in the direction of the thrust itself.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 26 Jun 2010 09:32

Not much different from a 3D nozzle though.
I suppose the difference is that there is more leeway for movement on a 3D nozzle and the direction of the thrust can be changed as opposed to narrowing/widening the exhaust stream.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Jun 2010 13:03

A.W.: So far LSP-4 has flown and what is the road ahead?

P.S.: The next one in line is LSP-5 and it will fly in the first week of August this year with slight modifications to the cockpit. We are confident of flying LSP-7 in September 2010 and the final LSP-8 in December 2010, paving way for the initial operational clearance (IOC). We are making LSP-6 a complete experimental platform. LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be flown by user pilots for user evaluation and feedback. HAL will begin the series production by the first quarter of 2011.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Jun 2010 14:50

On LSP-6 they may want to test new technologies developed in due course for Tejas Mk2 on a similar platform to get feedback from users in actual flying conditions rather then putting it all on new Mk2 prototypes and over a period of time when systems are upgraded on Mk1 they would flight qualify on identical test platform rather then on operational types , so a experimental platform makes sense.

steve · Post by **steve** » 26 Jun 2010 15:23

We are making LSP-6 a complete experimental platform........LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be flown by user pilots for user evaluation and feedback

So LSP 5 will the the last and final configuration aircraft of the LCA development in MARK 1 version.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... 236996.xml
Aviation Week

The next one in line is LSP-5 and it will fly in the first week of August this year with slight modifications to the cockpit

A.W.: Can you elaborate on the cockpit modification?

P.S.: It will be [a] rearranged and modified cockpit to increase the comfort levels of the pilot. The layout changes will make the glass cockpit more pilot-friendly and even enhance its night-flying capabilities.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 Jun 2010 08:40

Ski-jump take-off for light combat aircraft Tejas

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Jun 2010 08:55

^ Looks like it is the same one meant for training Mig-29K pilots in Dabolim (Goa).