Libyan War

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2011 00:11

GD, how many instances has the F-15 crashed due to mechanical failure?

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Mar 2011 00:19

Ammunition from DPRK?

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 23 Mar 2011 02:14

Whats shocking is that the helicopter sent to pick up the F15 pilots shot at those who rescued them. One is badly injured in hospital and a child had to have his leg amputated. These people who were shot at are still singing the praises of ameicans.

rescuing pilot
Tuesday 22 March 2011

EXCLUSIVE: Six villagers in a field on the outskirts of Benghazi were shot and injured when a US helicopter landed to rescue a crew member from the crashed jet, reports Lindsey Hilsum.

Channel 4 News International Editor, Lindsey Hilsum, says that the villagers were shot when a US helicopter picked up the pilot who had ejected from the F-15E Eagle plane after it experienced a mechanical failure.

The US aircraft crashed on Monday night and was found in a field outside Benghazi and landed in rebel-held territory.

The local Libyans who were injured in the rescue mission are currently in hospital. They are the first confirmed casualities of allied operations, almost four days after operations began. At the time of writing, no one had died as a result of the gunfire.

the local Libyans do not seem resentful, they still want the coalition forces to keep operating.
Lindsey Hilsum

Lindsey Hilsum has been in the hospital where some of the injured were taken. She has spoken to the father of a young boy who expects to have his leg amputated due to a bullet wound.

Gauging the reaction of locals in the area, she said: "the local Libyans do not seem resentful, they still want the coalition forces to keep operating."

Both crew members ejected and have now been flown out of Libya by US personel, according to a US military spokesman.

He said the crash was "not due to enemy or hostile actions."

The pilot and a weapons officer were aboard the fighter jet, having set off from from Aviano Air Base in Italy. On experiencing the mechanical difficulties, both pilots ejected safely, but suffered minor injuries.

The pilot was rescued by the US helicopter soon after crash landing and opposition rebels recovered the weapons officer, taking "took good care of him" before coalition forces picked him up some time later.

Channel 4 with video

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Mar 2011 03:22

Amirkhan military typically fire first and ask questions later - their tactics are pretty collateral damage heavy. In this case it might have just been that the air crew saw civilians, didn't know they were hostile or not, and fired just in case. For other examples, just look at how the US military/contractor convoys drive through urban areas in Iraq and their rules of engagement. This is the exact opposite of how IA or the UK military operates. Note, the absence of any condemnation in the report - instead we have more psy-ops of how "no one died" and "locals want ops to continue". I am sure a statement will be trotted out "regreting the incident" but justifying it as something inevitable in hostile enemy territory (which is true). However, now if it were some non-NATO military involved there, you could expect Amirkhan to clamour about poorly trained, trigger happy military and how they are shooting at women and and chopping off childrens' legs.

saip · Post by **saip** » 23 Mar 2011 03:34

According to CNN it was the Harriers that dropped 'non lethal' bombs between the approaching civilians and the downed crewman meant as a warning but the civilians got hit by shrapnel.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Mar 2011 05:32

Germany pulls out of NATO operations in Mediterranean

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2011 05:44

Dilbu wrote:
Ammunition from DPRK?

The box also says "Beajing" below Tripoli.

Or is it bearing?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Mar 2011 06:13

All those flights to evacuate 30,000,000,000,000 million PRC citizens from Libya should have been flying in a lot of ammunition (rather than empty) to make it a good last minute business for China, no ? UK and Russia also got their cut over the many years on equipment sold.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 07:45

heavy hitters for GMTI ops to track moving surface units being flown in for A2G phase .. these far outrange and outperform the RAF Astor and French Horizon systems looking at the sheer size of the beast.

from kursed twitter:

# FMCNL USAF E-8C Joint STARS as FEMUR 14 tail nr 00-2000 currently wkg 5598.0 kHz GANDER AOC heading 47N 20W probable heading #Libya about 3 hours ago via Echofon

# FMC the Netherlands FMCNL FUN, just noticed PYTHON 99 an E-8C Joint STARS tail nr 92-3289 was overhead #Spain this afternoon at FL330, I guess heading Morón LEMO about 3 hours ago via web

# FMC the Netherlands FMCNL Currently two E-8C Joint STARS airborne, both Oceanic near Canada, FEMUR 14 tail nr 00-2000 and WHIP 14 tail nr 95-0122 heading #Libya?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 07:51

that che guevara thing is worthy of T-shirts worldwide.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 23 Mar 2011 08:13

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2 ... tial-costs

CNN report shows an AIM-120 AMRAAM mounted on the crashed F-15

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Mar 2011 08:28

saip wrote:According to CNN it was the Harriers that dropped 'non lethal' bombs between the approaching civilians and the downed crewman meant as a warning but the civilians got hit by shrapnel.

USMC Harriers I guess. What are "non-lethal" bombs and why in God's name would you drop bombs to deter civilians given the large radius of shrapnel?

shiv, That says Bearing but ofcourse its via Beijing.

Singha saar, While listening to Malta ATC from apphice, caught a flight of two being vectored straight to Tripoli.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 10:05

this conflict has definitely made me aware of a lot of stuff I didnt know about available on the internet like that ATC feed and flightradar24.

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 23 Mar 2011 13:08

Singhaji is right there is no discipline at all. Rebels are firing MANPADs horizontally like RPGs and vice versa.

Manpads with their proximity fuse are real dangerous when used like this I guess.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Mar 2011 13:48

^^ dont forget they are tribal desert mards with full ideological fervour

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Mar 2011 14:01

^^^

LM,

Didnt you mean Desert raakit maards.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 14:13

some of the photos could just be posed for western reporters.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 17:00

day4 debrief
http://cencio4.wordpress.com/2011/03/23 ... ned-day-4/

track of a canadian refueler near malta
http://cencio4.files.wordpress.com/2011 ... ro01_2.png

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2011 18:14

What is India's strategy to deal with the kind of attack that is being carried out in Libya?

Can the Arjun tank survive an air attack of the type near Benghazi?

What about our radar installations?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 18:50

one allied air attack on regime forces at entrance to strategic x-road of adjabiya which rebel forces ran back from yesterday when attempting to retake it.
without SF units and 1-800-B52 service these 50 sorties the allies are able to put daily is hardly going to have any impact.

for this, the allies need to be clear in their own minds whether they want to press home the attack and get the regime out, or just do some damage and waste money on a years long NFZ, economic sanctions etc.

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 23 Mar 2011 18:55

Libya is the new Iraq and it comes with lots and lots of oil.
I understand that what the US reason for military action against Libya is , but what I don't agree with is the way it is taking place.
Bringing peace to a country does not mean tearing it down.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 19:06

why do you say they are tearing it own ? so far only military targets are hit, stuff like water and power plants and refineries are left intact. the libyan navy has not been attacked but asked to stay in port.

does not look like any intent to tear the country's economy apart.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Mar 2011 19:20

pranav, no tank is going to survive a 500lb LGB hit

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Mar 2011 19:30

aniket

wrong thread for your comments

pranav

I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. The better detterence is to be able to reach out and do the same damage in their homeland

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2011 19:38

Lalmohan wrote:pranav, no tank is going to survive a 500lb LGB hit

OK ... so then the only option is to prevent the attackers from getting that close.

For munitions, you can have
(a) laser guidance
(b) remote radio guidance with a camera mounted on the nose of the bomb
(c) some kind of autonomous guidance - active (radar) or passive (visible or infrared spectrum)

IMO one needs a comprehensive analysis of the various threats and how they can be countered.

How radar installations can be protected is another question. In that case, the enemy would be using anti-radiation munitions.

Perhaps a separate thread "Military Lessons of the Libya attack" would be helpful?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 23 Mar 2011 19:45

Surya wrote: I doubt anyone can take that sort of hit. The better detterence is to be able to reach out and do the same damage in their homeland

That is a tall order ... to operate thousands of km away from homeland. But I guess such capabilities must be developed.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Mar 2011 19:49

just look up how the serb forces survived the nato air attack in kosovo

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Mar 2011 19:50

pranav

or reach out and touch them where they exist in other parts of the world.

But nothing like the pschological impact of hitting the homeland - thats true deterence

You can do the Serb thing and humker down but end result is no different - just absolute ruin

aniket · Post by **aniket** » 23 Mar 2011 20:03

Singha wrote:why do you say they are tearing it own ? so far only military targets are hit, stuff like water and power plants and refineries are left intact. the libyan navy has not been attacked but asked to stay in port.

does not look like any intent to tear the country economy.

CIVILIAN CASUALTIES

A Libyan government health official said 64 people had been killed in the Western bombardment overnight from Saturday to Sunday, but it was impossible to verify the report.

The Arab League's Moussa called for an emergency meeting of the group of 22 states to discuss Libya. He requested a report into the bombardment, which he said had "led to the deaths and injuries of many Libyan civilians."

Arab backing for a no-fly zone provided crucial underpinning for the passage of a U.N. Security Council resolution last week that paved the way for Western action to stop Gaddafi killing civilians as he fights an uprising against his rule.

This report from reuters http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/ ... JP20110320 clearly states that civilians are being constantly killed even though not being but intentionally targeted. It is unethical and immoral to take so many innocent lives and that too in the name of "peace". I strongly condemn the bombings. If you really want to help then topple the leadership, then give a passage for Gaddafi's forces to give up their arms and finally help to rebuild the society and infrastructure of the nation. That's how you should help and not by bombing away to glory.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 23 Mar 2011 20:32

aniket

once again "this is not the right thread'

go to the hot air forum for that sort of post

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 23 Mar 2011 20:38

Pranav wrote:What is India's strategy to deal with the kind of attack that is being carried out in Libya?

Can the Arjun tank survive an air attack of the type near Benghazi?

What about our radar installations?

There is no strategy. If India were subjected to this type of high-tech assault, we wouldn't fare any better than Libya, Iraq or Yugoslavia did. We have absolutely no defense against B-2's (if it's any consolation, nobody does) which means that anything which is stationary will be destroyed. This means our fixed radar installations, airfields, port facilities, power plants, etc --- all can be knocked out by US airpower with ease. Our mobile assets would fare much better (road-mobile MRBM's, mobile SAM vehicles, tanks, artillery, etc). Much of our airforce could be preserved by hiding the planes & helicopters in residential areas and in countryside. Our surface fleet, having no way to hide, would of course be anhillated with ease. Indian subs might have a chance to escape destruction and could perhaps survive the entire conflict if they stayed hidden (if any of our subs tried to attack the US Navy, they might even hit a ship or two but would probably die in the process).

So basically if you're the United States, you can destroy or neutralize India's air defenses, navy, and airforce with very little risk to your own people. Indeed, they could probably accomplish that part of the mission with zero combat losses. If the only objective was to punish or pressurize India with standoff strikes, they could certainly beat up on us and there wouldn't be much of anything we could do about it. Our only recourse would be to try and nuke them (if we had a nuclear-armed Agni-III it could theoretically hit Diego Garcia, while a theoretical nuclear-tipped Brahmos could potentially be used against an American aircraft carrier).

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Mar 2011 20:45

Y. Kanan,

you assume a lot of mythical US power.

Hint: Think about bases, range, the mobile defences of a static establishments and so on. and there are 20 B-2s.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 23 Mar 2011 21:17

Pranav wrote:What is India's strategy to deal with the kind of attack that is being carried out in Libya?

Can the Arjun tank survive an air attack of the type near Benghazi?

What about our radar installations?

The best strategy for any country to defend themselves against this types of attacks would be to secure their "blue/green/brown water capability." If you can stop warships/subs/air craft carriers from launching missiles/aircrafts(fighters/awacs)/uavs say within a min 500km distance from land than a country might have a chance of detecting a volley of missiles and use AD to track and engage. Ofcourse those with (Electronic Counter Measures)ECM, ECCM & ECCCM will outwin everytime along with numerical superiority. You may be able to track 6 or 24 missiles, but if you cannot engage all 24 missiles then clearly the AD & their interceptors are outnumbered and it's only a matter of time before they are taken out. Hence the first strategy is to DENY the enemy launching missiles or restrict their range of launching missiles therby improving your warning time and giving a courntry some sort of a time to fight back.
Arjun surviving air attacks is a different scenario. If it has capabilities to detect missiles and CM for it then MAYBE. but again, it all depends on how good is it jamming capabilites, their CM, CCM? One needs to know their formation, do they have air cover (helicopters detecting incoming threats and taking care of it or not?) & again if a volley of 4-8 missiles are lobbed at each tank, their is a 100% GURANTEE at a minimum ONE will take out the tank. Are they operating in a hostile enviornemnt or is the ADN covered and secured? without knowing these questions numerous answers exists...
Radar installations - Again, this depends on tracking range, CM, ECCM, jamming resistance, and the number of aircrafts/uavs/missiles it can detect vs engage simalutenously and the time it takes for it to react. Not sure of SWORDFISH or Pechora's, but AAKASH seems to have a capability to operate in a high ECCM enviorment, however the stated engagement range is 20-30 KM so not sure how effective that'll be. The ability for the networks to hop their frequency making it harder to detect & make them prone to jamming will gurantee that they can provide a safe cover in their respective enviornemnt. If the tech int of the offenders is superior than that of defenders clearly the defenders have lost the advantage and it's only a matter of time before they get their asses blown off...

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 23 Mar 2011 21:29

ravi_ku wrote:Y. Kanan,

you assume a lot of mythical US power.

Hint: Think about bases, range, the mobile defences of a static establishments and so on. and there are 20 B-2s.

I'm aware they only have about 20 B-2's... I never said it wouldn't take awhile!

Each B-2 can carry up to 80 500-lb GPS guided bombs, or a smaller # of 2000-lb bombs\JDAMs\bunker busters\etc. A small # of B-2's can hit a lot of targets but still, when you have a target list as rich as India, it would take a looooong time to destroy all the major targets. I'm not arguing that; my point is simply that we have no defense against this type of attack. If the target is stationary and its location known, it will be hit, and there's a not a damn thing you can do about it. Don't take it personal; this would be true for any country - USAF B-2's could do the same to China, Russia or anywhere else for that matter.

Personally, I think the best defense is a robust nuclear deterrent. Trying to defeat or match US conventional dominance is hopeless (and would be a gargantuan waste of money). It's a lot cheaper to deter them with nukes. This is why China & Russia don't worry too much about US stealth bombers and such. They know full well their nuclear deterrent keeps them safe from US attack.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 21:30

british typhoons -a2a loadout only
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/1521/51401787.jpg
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/4668/74360238.jpg

french rafale loaded with aasm (distinctive twin fins at the nose..like aasm 500lb model)
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2627/800xt.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/1461/800xx.jpg
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/8131/800xr.jpg

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 23 Mar 2011 21:37

Y. Kanan wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:Y. Kanan,

you assume a lot of mythical US power.

Hint: Think about bases, range, the mobile defences of a static establishments and so on. and there are 20 B-2s.
I'm aware they only have about 20 B-2's... I never said it wouldn't take awhile!

and our army and airforce will be sleeping all during this while

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2011 22:08

When I saw what happened in Gulf war 2 - a war that was followed here on BRF in great detail I had the same thoughts as YKanan.

It would be next to impossible to avoid serious damage from a mass attack of cruise missiles. stealthy SEAD missions followed by PGMs. But the overall geopolitical effect might not be one that is desirable by the attacker and unless air war is followed by ground war - it would be merely an act of punishing India by air in the manner Libya is being punished by air with no guaranteed end.

In fact ever since Kosovo the west has perfected the art of intimidation by air power - but with mixed results for them. For the nation that is attacked there is nothing mixed about the results.

One of the reasons why I am uncomfortable about the attacks on Libya and was slightly upset by the rah rah rah for "coalition forces" is that this method of dealing with nations has become sine qua non of the dominant industrialized west dealing with other nations. In an earlier era Britain occupied India, not Chile, using their military dominance to win all significant battles when they occurred. Imagine Chileans laughing and cheering on the performance of the "state of the art" British men of war and latest muskets in India. It was not Chilean karma to be treated that way. It was India's karma. it is now Libyan karma to be handled roughly. Again it is the military technological dominance of the same group of nations that has lasted 200 years that we are cheering as we see the crap being bombed out of Libya. There is nothing to cheer about. For Indians.

Sorry this is OT. The thought occurred to me on day 1 and should have gone into the start forum - but the thought comes on more strongly here. It is a quirk of BRF that we should want to separate the "boyz with toyz" military action from the "harrumph harrumph" strategic discussion. But they cannot be delinked. I would much rather discuss how Libya could defeat the attackers - or how India might want to deal with such an attack. That is why I started that still running thread " Dealing with future wars" - or something I called. Must be on page 2 or 3 of this forum.

Added later: I have cross posted a couple of messages from this thread on to that one.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 7#p1052797

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2011 22:35

i think there are limits to asymetric warfare. only guaranteed way is nuclear arsenal, icbms, huge economy and a pipeline of the same boyz toyz to match.

china has 1,2,3 and is working on 4
india has 1, about to cross threashold of 2 & 3 by 2015 and has just about started picking up pace on 4.

by 2025 we can consider our backsides safe but not before. china will be safe by 2020.

dsingh · Post by **dsingh** » 23 Mar 2011 22:41

I couldn't agree with you more. The way to avoid above scenario is ( as you have said), learn a lesson from it and be prepared ( like Chinese and even to some extent India- Lal Bahadur Shastriji's philosphy ). Our history is full of the lesson from Mahabharta, Alexander, Shivaji and in Modern times SC Bose and Mrs Gandhi). However how much we have learned and incorporated in our practice, is another matter and is best discussed on Sat day after 6 PM with a glass of red wine/single Malt.

There are many reasons for being attacked, but as you said people can justify when they have power i.e correct " Might is Right". No one attacked Chinese after Tinnaman Squire. So we have to have not only a lot Nirbays but also 65 Sq s of Combat aircrafts as well.

Regards,

DSingh.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Mar 2011 22:53

I did protest when this thread was moved to this forum and the voices that replied wanted it to be here. I opened the other thread in response for war is extension of politics.