India Nuclear News and Discussion 4 July 2011

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Sep 2011 22:48

Guys, we can go on and on about CT's but let me tell you there is no religious conflict here. Christians listen to Hindu leaders and Saints and Hindus listen to Christian leaders. The agitation was a fully mixed crowd. I have repeatedly said the locals have no confidence in the DAE as it is presently set up. It is arrogant, opaque and very casual about its functioning, trust in the DAE to do the right thing is lacking. A full reform of the DAE and its functioning esp. WRT creating a fully independent/transparent oversight and safety organization is required. The lessons of Fukushima need to be implemented first.

- Group think needs to be broken up.
- Completely independent monitoring agency is vital.
- Secrecy needs to be ended.
- More jobs need to go to locals.
- An emergency response unit needs to be set up and equipped to handle even the most extreme situation.
- A proper evacuation plan with all those likely to be evacuated needs to be identified and notified.
- A proper compensation/insurance agency should be implemented.
- Land acquisition for future reactors must stop.
- Fisherman must be compensated for the losses from the exclusion zone long term.

Reaching for CT's is easy as an excuse to ignore the locals who are genuinely afraid. Sorry to say this but SS is quite discredited. He has zero following and credibility esp. around here.

Jaitapur is for locals there to decide on. They should learn from KKNPP where the building of the complex has prejudiced our interests. Don't trust the GOI or its extension the AEC/DAE.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 26 Sep 2011 23:05

a video highlighting activities of the Uranium Corp of India Ltd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ6667Noex0

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 26 Sep 2011 23:11

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/193 ... olicy.html

But this is precisely what thousands of vulnerable but now better informed villagers - an offshoot of the IT-Communication revolution - in this oppressively dry Radhapuram taluk of Tamil Nadu’s Tirunelveli district, are vociferously questioning, as they demand the closure of their next-door nuclear enigma - the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP) here.

The broad-based ‘struggle committee’ against KNPP, spearheaded by anti-nuclear activists, S P Udhyakumar and Anton Gomez, have just ended a heroic 12-day long fast, thanks to a politically sagacious Chief Minister J Jayalalitha passing a Cabinet resolution, urging Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to suspend all work at KNPP until the local people’s apprehensions are fully allayed.

Equally, what turned the nation’s eyes towards an obscure ‘pandal’ overlooking the 110-year-old Saint Lourdes catholic church, the fasting venue at Idinthakarai coastal hamlet, 2 km north of the KNPP site, was the sudden upsurge of thousands of people from neighbouring districts including children and disabled, whose solidarity for the fasters bellowed like the boiling sea along this fragile 2004 tsunami-hit coastal stretch.

How come a motley crowd of fasters in a little known village suddenly took centre-stage? It cannot all be put down to anti-nuclear NGOs’ getting hyper-active overnight or committed social activists like Medha Patkar visiting them on a morale-boosting mission.
‘The affected people’s emotive response looks sudden, but this has been simmering from the late 1980s’,” says Father James Peter, pastor of a local parish. “Irrespective of caste, creed or religion, it is now a people’s fight for their survival and cultural identity,” he said.

But a cross-section of villagers demolish all conspiracy theories. “The people of Idinthakarai have been fighting this project, though a section in Kudankulam was divided as they got contract jobs from the project,” says Fr James.

Nonetheless, what turned the tide totally against the KNPP was a “huge, shaking noise, rattling the entire populace when the turbine’s test-run was done recently,” he said. Soon people’s universal refrain was, “how will it be when the nuclear plant actually runs?”, prompting the fast.

“That thundering turbine vibration was felt right up to Uthankudi village, 5 km from here; Won’t we but be scared, particularly after the recent nuclear disaster in Fukushima in Japan?” fumed a retired woman school teacher, at the fasting venue. “Our one-point demand is this nuclear plant should be closed down,” echoed several women protestors.

And following this episode, when the Atomic Energy Commission chairman Srikumar Bannerjee made a statement in Coimbatore that the first Kudankulam unit would start functioning by September 2011, “people’s fears turned into a scare,” contends Gomez.

The scare peaked to a fear psychosis in August, when officials unimaginatively publicised the do’s and don’ts of an off-site ‘Emergency Preparedness Drill’. “Word went round that we have to gag our mouths with black cloth and vacate our homes; monitoring radioactive leak was up to a radius of 30 km, going almost up to Kanniyakumari,” a dismayed soul said.

From head to toe rules were flouted in building these reactors, which casts a doubt on the plant’s resilience to earthquakes or any radioactive leak, alleged locals in Kudankulam. “Shoddy construction and use of low quality pipes in the piping systems outside the reactor building, won’t make them last even for a year and a radioactive leak is imminently possible,” claimed a worker who worked in the plant, with almost an insider’s certainty.

“Even Atomic Energy Regulatory Board guideline prohibiting any quarrying activity within 3 km of the plant site was given the go-by,” regretted Selvan, a farmer, pained by memories that initial hopes of employment and prosperity to Kudankulam area have all been belied.

“Nearly 25 years back they acquired 3,200 acres of land for this nuclear project; but there are still people who are yet to get their compensation,” said Durairaj, another farmer. With those lands, not only hundreds of cash-earning tamarind and Palmyra trees were gone, also “our age-old cotton cultivation was ruined,’ he cried. Pleas to enhance the land compensation met with stiff resistance and “false cases were foisted on us,” he rued.

After a stage, the land compensation money was deposited with the Revenue authorities, involving a hefty lawyer’s fee for any recovery proceeding, the farmers pointed out. “At least if they had deposited that money in a bank, it would have fetched some interest for us,” they felt.

“We won’t rest until the 160 cylinders of enriched Uranium that has come from Russia (as fuel for the N-units) are shipped back,” screamed fisher-folk, who worry about the dwindling sea catches already. Fears of more incidences of cancer in women and birth deformities in kids also haunt them. “Our fast has ended, but our struggle will continue until the nuclear plant is shut down,” said Udhyakumar.

Shaken by these developments, officials of DAE, NPCIL and KNPP have gone into top gear, revamping their out-reach efforts to convince the local people on all issues including safety of the reactors supplied by Russia.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 26 Sep 2011 23:16

Theo, don't break your head here. This is the crowd which talks of radium water tonic and pollution by Wind mills and exploding solar panels.

And They would be the last one to consume radiated Fukushima rice or allow construction of plant in their back yard because they are so "Ugly"

. Most of such research in eminent journals are paid for by Nuclear power Industry whose hopes are in China and India onlee.

Why risk locking this otherwise useful thread. Allow this thread to continue to discover and discuss Nuclear Scam in future.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 26 Sep 2011 23:54

@ theo saar.. my religious belief border on atheism ...I am not in favour of making this a religious debate...

But religion has been used as a political tool and India has been the worst victim...

[off topic]...
You are well aware that some missionaries have been used by people with nefarious intentions against India , the topic has been deiscussed ... And the activity of the so called hindu- "God-men" Chandraswamy in the bofors scam is well known..We don't even need to mention how Islam has been exploited for political objectives ... So there is a lot a evidence that "religious priests" claiming to work for a god have actually been working for money...
[/off topic]

Involvement of "men dressed as priest" claiming to represent god in the nuclear protests is quite evident... I don't think they do it out of love of god.. In any nuclear issue foreign hand is inevitable ... A good way of psy-oping Indian public is religion... The plant is about to achieve criticality .. If it did not trouble the locals till now it will not in the future ... and wherer medha patkar is involved thins are not good..

- Group think needs to be broken up.
- Completely independent monitoring agency is vital.
- Secrecy needs to be ended.
- More jobs need to go to locals.
- An emergency response unit needs to be set up and equipped to handle even the most extreme situation.
- A proper evacuation plan with all those likely to be evacuated needs to be identified and notified.
- A proper compensation/insurance agency should be implemented.
- Land acquisition for future reactors must stop.
- Fisherman must be compensated for the losses from the exclusion zone long term.

I agree with most of these ... Except perhaps the " most jobs to locals" part... Because nuke plants are not all that labour intensive most of the workforce is technical. So employment would depend upon availability of expertise , whether local or from a different region...
..I also disagree with stopping land acquisition .. IIRC you support land acquisition and sez's for real estate and industry... So I don't see why land should not be acquired for an energy plant (nuclear or thermal or whatever)... If your opposition to acquisition is based on fundamental dislike for nuclear energy that is a different thing..I am no one to change that belief ...and the matter has been debated heatedly..dont want aother debate on that...But I see no reason why land should not be acquired for the purpose of energy generation...yes compensation should be given .. like in case of acquisition for sez etc...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 27 Sep 2011 09:42

gakakkad wrote:.. If it did not trouble the locals till now it will not in the future ...

That's a weak argument. That tumor in your belly has not bothered you so far so leave it alone. Even though your neighbor just died of the same tumor. Really.

The entire CT aspect is a way of brushing everything under the carpet. Of the 20 leaders at the protest only 3 were priests. And this is taken as evidence of Vatican conspiracy against India. Sigh! With this sort of attitudes the opposition is only going to get worse.

If you are not going to give more jobs to locals don't acquire anymore land. The GOI is exacerbating the unemployment problems in the district.

Meanwhile... ..all the stupid locals can go away.. ..now..

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... nt/450270/

Days after the Tamil Nadu cabinet passed a resolution urging the Centre to stop work at the Kudankulam nuclear power project, the Nuclear Power Corporation (NPC) said technical hurdles will not allow it to stall operations immediately.

A nuclear scientist at the NPC said it was not similar to the shutting down of an automobile plant or switching off power supply and they need to run it to preserve the systems and equipment that have already been set up at the Kudankulam project site.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 27 Sep 2011 16:28

The entire CT aspect is a way of brushing everything under the carpet. Of the 20 leaders at the protest only 3 were priests. And this is taken as evidence of Vatican conspiracy against India. Sigh! With this sort of attitudes the opposition is only going to get worse.

I never said it is an evidence of Vatican... Vatican has hardly any influence in international politics... It would hardly want to take on a mighty country like India...

The countries involved are China/US and probably France for their own vested interests ... And they use religion to meet their ends..The are using missionaries in TN because christians are a sizeable population there..

If it occurs in a hindu dominated area they might use some hindu priests..If it occured in Chhattisgarh they would use the hel of naxals...

Remember the Arihant naming controversy? My GF is a half Jain and has no objections to nuclear submarines being named Arihant...Neither does her mom who was raised rather strictly as a jain.. But that event has shown that religion can be used for Psy-ops .. I am not saying that foreign hand was behind the controversy... I am sure that in Arihants case there was no foreign hand... But the event shows how religious sensibilities can be used for Psy-ops ...

Sometimes religious leaders can inadvertently act without knowing...

If you are not going to give more jobs to locals don't acquire anymore land. The GOI is exacerbating the unemployment problems in the district.

Even an oil refinery or thermal power plant does not need a large number of unskilled workers... Neither does a semiconductor foundry ...

So by your argument we should not acquire land for microchip factory .. As their will not be a high concentration of VLSI engineers in any given area and most of them will have to be from other regions ... And that having a microchip factory or aerospace plant somehow exacerbated unemployment as per your theory ...

regarding land acquisition policy of gov't ..no brfite agrees with the 1892 land acquisition act ... The law was framed by the british ... It needs to be changed completely ...

As far as locals are concerned by all means they should be rehabilitated ...

That's a weak argument. That tumor in your belly has not bothered you so far so leave it alone. Even though your neighbor just died of the same tumor. Really.

Remember the Connecticut gas and oil power plant explosions last year ... several people died there... so we should stop using gas and oil plants...

Remember the gulf of mexico oil spill incident last year ? (deep water it think it was called) several people died in it... so we should stop all refineries..

Remember the texas refinery explosion a couple of years ago ? several people died... i believe u should stop driving car that runs on "evil gasoline"

A few years ago their was a Sugar factory explosion in somewhere in Georgia US .. dozens died...we should stop eating sweets...

A hydroelectric plant bust in Panda land 3 decades ago... lakhs of people died...

A dairy bust in Gujarat recently killing 5 people ...we should be banning all dairies and stop drinking milk and cheese...

We should just live in Kave kaamplex link early men as all industries can cause disaster and kill people...we ll hunt like tribals and farm in ancient techniques...

Because a fertilizer factory burst in TFTA France a decade ago .. (a few days after 9/11) ..it killed 30 odd people...

See I told ye.. early men .kave kaamplex best life...

negi · Post by **negi** » 27 Sep 2011 19:28

I propose a new design for indeginous, green and clean syuper fast reactor.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 28 Sep 2011 01:35

^^^Not only that, if you listen to our geniacs it will protect you from radiation.

The threat of nulcear radiation in Japan has raised widespread concerns across the world. India too, which has many nuclear plants, needs to be worried ....

TOI spoke to associate professor in physics department, KN Uttam, about the nuclear radiation and ways to prevent it. He said some traditional Indian practices can help in minimising the effects of Gamma rays, the most harmful rays emitted in nuclear radiation.

"Traditional methods like keeping onions in pockets and applying a layer of Cow Dung on the outside walls of houses absorb the harmful gamma rays," Uttam said. "Cow dung, in fact, can absorb all the three rays -- alpha, beta and gamma

All from Times from India:
Link: Onions, cow dung reduce radiation impact'

(Disclaimer: The above is similar to other stories, quite often placed in brf I don't take it seriously but apparently many do)

... OTOH I recall a thesis paper by one of the IIT grad about radiation in gobar-gas plant (All bio fuel have radioactivity)..oh well...
Here is IITB site for the interested..http://www.che.iitb.ac.in/chea/azeotrop ... ves/biogas

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 28 Sep 2011 08:49

^

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Sep 2011 10:23

The above posts are precisely the reason why the Indian nuclear Industry will suffer from delays, troubles and constant criticism.

They could chose the path of engagement, or mockery -- clearly there are people who have not learnt to respect their countrymen yet and think that they are some how superior.

Well good luck to them; they are certainly not going to achieve anything despite their "self-professed" big brains.

-------------------------------------------------

To the people who are really interested in making a meaningful progressive approach, let me repost the crucial bits from Theo's post

- Group think needs to be broken up.
- Completely independent monitoring agency is vital.
- Secrecy needs to be ended.
- More jobs need to go to locals.
- An emergency response unit needs to be set up and equipped to handle even the most extreme situation.
- A proper evacuation plan with all those likely to be evacuated needs to be identified and notified.
- A proper compensation/insurance agency should be implemented.
- Land acquisition for future reactors must stop.
- Fisherman must be compensated for the losses from the exclusion zone long term.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2011 11:38

The actual truth is that the protests have been carefully stagemanaged by vested external interests who are outraged that India has not signed on the dotted line regarding N-catastrophe liability,that too after India suffered and lakhs are still suffering from the Bhopal chemical disaster.The very same nation that was responsible for Bhopal and have protected the man responsible,have orchestrated so-called "Christian" groups in south TN,to derail the Russian N-plants from operating precisely because the Russians are willing to provide us with more of the same! Since when did "bishops" lead political protests? These agents behind the protesters who also include simple village folk are nothing but Quislings.American EJs have been most active in TN and on the other side of the Palk Straits too,right through the Eelam Wars,no coincidence.The American N-plants are not as safe as either the French or Russian reactors and the Yanquis are unwilling to sign on the dotted line as the Indian Parliament has passed,hard guarantees of international-standards of compensation in the awful event of a N-catastrophe.

This is why Hillary Clinton's visit to Madras to see the new Queen of TN,JJ,was not a social call.She had a pernicious secret agenda with her.Persuading JJ to castigate the Lankan regime on the Tamil Q,and to on the side without (?) JJ's knowledge,create a huge controversy regarding the KKM Russian plants,armtwisting the GOI into bartering away the safety of lives of a billion Indian people. Watch what happens if we grovellingly sign on the dotted line and agree to US diktats,the KKM protests will subside automatically! This is a simple case of blackmailing of India so that US N-plant producers will benefit at the expense of others.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Sep 2011 11:42

^^^ All the more reasons for transparency, the best cure for skullduggery is transparency.

But this Govt is not serious about really enhancing the Indian Nuclear sector beyond giving large amounts of money to foreign suppliers.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 28 Sep 2011 12:15

Coming from PM of India here http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?736480

"I have no reason to believe that the leadership in Tamil Nadu will be against nuclear power. Some people are instigating vested interests. I have spoken to Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu. We will speak to all the enlightened leadership and find a practical solution,"

If PM says this, sooner of later we must find out by whom and how instigation is going on. This is HUGE.

"I feel that leadership of all types (in the state) will realise that atomic energy will be an element of nuclear energy mix," he said.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Sep 2011 12:49

vishvak wrote:Coming from PM of India

Manmohan has also been making many other statements on nuclear issue, including statements in parliament during IUCNA.

If he had any credibility, even a shred, many of these issues would not have come to the pass anyway.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 28 Sep 2011 17:31

I don't know where to post ...it is from Germany. Although I am for Nuclear energy but looking at the cost and our past record of handling waste... I am worried

Dismantling nuke plants to cost €18 billion

The decommissioning process is estimated to cost between €670 million to €1.2 billion per plant. Even more could be necessary in order to store waste materials.

Another one

Nuclear phaseout to cost Germany €250 billion

According to the study by the state-owned investment bank KfW, the planned realignment of Germany's power supply from nuclear to renewables will require "additional investment needs of around €250 billion by 2020."
KfW describes itself as one of the leading sources of finance in the energy sector, estimating that it financed 80 percent of new wind turbines installed in Germany last year, plus 40 percent of solar panels.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 28 Sep 2011 19:22

Phillip,

This is too much. Without a shred of evidence you are accusing people of being quislings and anti-nationals just on the basis of their religious orientation. I understand you are heavy into calling people all manner of vicious names and insults but think man before denigrating your own common folk. Have some sense of decency at least to Indian nationals.

During the Sethu Samudram resistance many of this very same Fisher folk and a few of their priests demonstrated against the project long long before that whole KK spat blew up and became fashionable nationally. When the Hindu Tamils of Lanka were being slaughtered it was these fishermen and their priests who protested. Were they all anti-nationals then too.

I would like to point out that these folk you so casually tar as EJ's have large numbers in the Indian military. Around here it is a long tradition to have one son be a priest and another son to sacrifice his life in the military. Almost every village here has lost men to the many conflicts India has to deal with. Don't fall for the heavy heavy propaganda on this board about the over-influence of foreign missionaries and how Christian preaching means they are anti-national. Many on this board have come out and said directly that Christians don't belong in India if they 'do' certain things that are fully permitted by the constitution.

This is all increasingly OT. But need to get it off my chest. My last comment.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 28 Sep 2011 20:47

Theo_Fidel wrote:Phillip,

This is too much. Without a shred of evidence you are accusing people of being quislings and anti-nationals just on the basis of their religious orientation.

Don't fall for the heavy heavy propaganda on this board about the over-influence of foreign missionaries and how Christian preaching means they are anti-national. Many on this board have come out and said directly that Christians don't belong in India if they 'do' certain things that are fully permitted by the constitution.

This is all increasingly OT. But need to get it off my chest. My last comment.

But Phillip has a point and is very much valid. Global transnational influence is headed by the Chritisn agenda and it will be seen as anti national in countries with long colonial history such as India.

BTW it is not about the constitution but about Indian nation and our heritage and civilization identity.
Indian constitution may be allow many things but if it is against the Indian nation/heritage then it will be seen as 'enemy'
One example - free speech.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 29 Sep 2011 03:05

gakakkad wrote:@ AmberG - The cancer related deaths of chernobyl were probably in dozens (most pessimistic)...the figure of millions is beyond absurd..

Unlike a nuclear bomb explosion Reactor meltdowns don't cause cause leukemia or most types of solid organ malignancy...

.

Different estimates (including 'probably in dozens') have been posted here in brf many times. (And are easy to check) . UNSCEAR puts the total at 62, but since no one kept good records, (remember, for cancer one has to keep a followup for years/decades, as cancer may develop later in life) no one really knows. One of the main cause of confusion came with publication of Alexey V. Yablokov comments in New York Academy of Sciences. (NYAS) which put the death toll around a million, and author (and some others) described it as "NYAS sanctioned study". NYAS took, an unusual step to publicly announce that they NEVER sanctioned such study and were merely publishing comments as they will do for anyone else. (

)

The 4000 (or such) figure comes from estimates derived by assuming LNT is true. (No reputable entity has found *any* evidence/data in support for low (<100 msv) doses. - Again we have discussed it many times in brf)

BTW when I was in ANL, I spent quite a bit of time looking at data from Hiroshima/Nagasaki radiation victims. (I was just curious, and was just looking at the data on my own)..one interesting part, best estimates tell us that of all those died in Hiroshima less than 2% of died due to radiation induced cancer.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 29 Sep 2011 03:23

gakakkad wrote:^

Gakakkadji - you may have noticed that article is from Times of India, a main-stream news site, and quotes 'professor of physics.'

Of course, such news items are not isolated and there is no lack of support for these ideas....including political support -

For example, and I quote:

Bhanwarlal Kothari, a senior member of the RSS, said, "Our tests have shown that distemper made out of cow dung and spread over walls and roofs can block nuclear radiation." According to Kothari, mainstream physics researchers conducted the tests in the north Indian town of Jaipur and even asked India's premier nuclear research agency, the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre, to test their claims and endorse the finding. Sailen Ghosh, a senior scientist at BARC, said he was not aware of any such request.

Link: Here
(There are many other sources which makes such claims)

Of course, me and you may find this incredible, but one only has to look at Bushby , Prof Uttam and others who find their voice not only in main stream media but here in brf too and has a huge devoted following. It is really sad.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2011 05:05

http://www.dnaindia.com/bangalore/repor ... nt_1592218

Even while the outcry against Kudankulam nuclear project has not died down in Tamil Nadu, protests have already begun in Karnataka when Kaiga Nuclear Power Generating station announced its plans to add two more units (Unit 5 and Unit 6) to its existing four units.

On Monday morning, inhabitants of 35 villages surrounding the Kaiga plant, alongside activists and elected representatives, gathered at Mallapura Hinduwada to discuss the project. Since there were more cons than pros, the gathering unanimously resisted the move and sent its opposition to the government. Last month, just before the decision to set up two more units, officials from the National Disaster Management Authority (NDMA) surveyed the region around the Kaiga plant.
They identified 43 villages that should be given away for the plant’s infrastructure facilities. “That was yet another gimmick played by the Nuclear Power Corporation of India Limited (NPCIL), to lure us into accepting the proposal for setting up their Units 5 and 6,” saidRamananda Nayak, former zilla panchayat member. An NPCIL official refuted this statement. “It is not how people make it to be. We have indeed planned for more civic infrastructure projects in all the villages around the Kaiga nuclear plant. It so happens that the progress was slow but we have certainly achieved 60% progress in terms of development. With the NDMA identifying more villages, we are bound to extend more facilities to them,” he said.

“When we had called the Kaiga officials to the meeting to give us details about the proposed units, they did not even bother to attend it,” said Shyamnath Naik, member of the Kadra Grama Panchayat.

The village chiefs have returned to their villages with a resolve to collect more opinions from the public. They advised the panchayats not to give permission to any developmental activities with respect to the construction of two new units.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Sep 2011 05:58

Theo saar land acquisition and displacement of people is common across large scale projects; how many were evacuated for construction of the so called modern temples of India ? A multi purpose project in the class of Hirakud/Bhakranangal or Tehri displaces far more number of people than all of these nuclear reactors put together, and I have not yet even brought up adverse affects on the ecosystem due to the diversion of rivers. Apart from nuclear power only hydel and thermal can generate enough power throughout the year to contribute to the base load component; in our case we do not have a choice we have to make use of all three to meet our growing eneergy need it's as simple as that.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2011 07:07

negi,

Points taken.

But nuclear appears to have this unique problem of low employment potential compared to land being taken. At least with a dam more irrigated area is created where people can move. The nuclear establishment also has this 5 km safety zone rule so KKNPP ended up taking over 4,000 acres or so, much larger than even many dam projects. After Fukushima there is mention of increasing the safety zone even further and more land is quietly being notified for acquisition.

We have been through the likely power contribution of nuclear before. TN right now has a peak power shortfall of about 3,000 MW. Even after both units are operational TN will only get 1,000 MW from KKNPP. So oddly there will not be any change in power shortfall as demand will be at least 1000 MW greater by the time it is commissioned. Not only that the costs are upto about Rs 19,000 crore already and more money will be spent before final commissioning. This works out to about $5 Billion before this entire project is complete. Just to give a sense of scale on how much money that is, this money would...

- Buy a brand new UMPP type coal plant of 4,000 MW with about $1 Billion to spare.
- Build the entire Dedicated freight corridor from Delhi to Mumbai.
- Buy 1 KW of Solar Panels @ $1.5/watt for about 3-4 Million homes. This would cover just about every home in TN. Installed capacity 3000 MW though load factors are low at about 30% which gives us surprise surprise 1000 MW of power on average. As the PV prices continue their plunge below $1 per watt and heading for $0.50 per watt this will get more and more attractive.
- Distributed amongst the TN population, every single person would get a Check for Rs 4,000.

But leave that alone. It is built. We should not waste money now. But at a minimum at least the lessons of Fukushima should be implemented. Beyond stating baldly that a 10 m Tsunami will not affect Kudankulam the AEC is completely unwilling to change a single other piece of its functioning. To its mind it is a perfect agency and can make no mistakes and has every contingency planned. So it refuses to prepare for a worst case scenario even minimally. It won't even tell us where the evacuation zone will end. No fail safe system exists if grid power and generators are lost even now. It continues to cling to its secrecy permits to hide its failures. There are now reports leaking out that parts of the construction at Kudankulam is apparently quite shoddy and already cracks, broken pipes, excessive corrosion and material failures are visibly present. The AEC/DAE wants to commission this without changing a single thing after Fukushima. This is quite simply arrogance.

We don't trust the AEC/DAE and our shambles of a GOI one bit.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Sep 2011 07:41

Theo saar I have to read more on KKNPP specially when it comes to land acquisition part but having said that whatever little I know about the way GoI goes about it's projects I think as compared to the governments elsewhere in the world GoI is very considerate of issues which might inflame the public at large and mind you many a time this is responsible for the snail like pace of our infra/construction projects.Basically we SDREs are too sentimental by nature and this reflects in GoI's policy making, all one has to do is make a small dargah/masjid/church/temple on the piece of land in question and create a ruckus; GoI will beat a hasty retreat. On a serious note I think politics in TN is lot mature than some of the other states in India I would be highly surprised if this agitation is not subdued in a few days time; even in a worst case scenario the reactor will only get displaced to some other location within/outside the state.

We don't trust the AEC/DAE which take their order from our shambles of a GOI one bit.

I am usually all game for ganging up on the GoI ; however when it comes to our nuclear energy sector our safety record is impeccable and moreover unlike some of the other hi-tech sectors the level of self reliance which we have achieved in nuclear energy is pretty impressive, so I don't see any reason why one should not trust the AEC/DAE , there is simply no pretext for such distrust except for 'fear' and I am afraid there is no sound logic/argument which can help you get rid of the 'fear'.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Sep 2011 09:26

@ AmberG -
THE Latency period for hematologic malignancies is believed to be 7 years... For Solid organs it is believed to be about 20 years.. besides these accidents the data also comes from radiotherapy patients , some of whom develop a second cancer..

There are a lot of things we still don't know... But all in all I can surely say that the cancer risk of reactors is greatly exaggerated. In fact as far as India is concerned , I am more worried about medical and university facilities ... especially in government colleges.. because they are much more easily accessible than nuclear reactors ...

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 Sep 2011 10:31

Theo_Fidel wrote:
“When we had called the Kaiga officials to the meeting to give us details about the proposed units, they did not even bother to attend it,” said Shyamnath Naik, member of the Kadra Grama Panchayat.

The village chiefs have returned to their villages with a resolve to collect more opinions from the public. They advised the panchayats not to give permission to any developmental activities with respect to the construction of two new units.

If I am not mistaken, it is Govt.s job to resolve these confusions. In absence of Govt. participation as if Govt. lives on an island, scientists and protestors are on their own to understand each other's point of view and convince, and so on.

Govt. has just given up its job.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2011 10:53

negi boss,

Reactor is not going anywhere. We have to fix the operations in a as is mode.

It is not right to say the DAE's record is perfect. There have been numerous severe and less severe accidents. It is partly luck that no one has directly died from radiation yet though many construction/maintenance types have died in general onsite accidents and many random workers/scientists have received unplanned exposures to radiation. Some of the luck is that the reactors India was operating so far were relatively small. Many were operating well below maximum capacity due to other issues and hence the equipment was not being driven fully. The largest single unit BWR in India so far has been only 220 MW capacity. The 500MW PHWR reactors in Tarapur are a completely different beast. KKNPP BWR suddenly jumps to 1000 MW. This is quite a leap. This is causing a lot of fear and anxiety amongst the locals who feel like live experimental subjects.

I don't understand how you can criticize the government yet give the DAE a free pass. Admittedly the DAE is partly in its present pickle because the GOI has completely abdicated its functions but the DAE also contributed to this mess. It is not even required to immediately disclose an accident to the public. It is allowed to do so at a time and manner of its choosing. Even the ISRO gets regularly hammered and taken to the cleaners with every aspect transparently open to scrutiny. Sanku said earlier that this is a case of the middle class directly identifying itself with the management in the DAE/AEC. We trust those who look and speak like us. It probably explains why the fishermen look at the DAE's casual plans with alarm. They can see the Emperor has no clothes.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 Sep 2011 11:30

Theo_Fidel wrote:We trust those who look and speak like us. It probably explains why the fishermen look at the DAE's casual plans with alarm. They can see the Emperor has no clothes.

It is unwise to ignore safety measures at the plant?
From http://post.jagran.com/scientist-bats-f ... 1316862779
Scientist bats for nuke power, says Koodankulam unit is safe
Here former Vice Chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB) GR Srinivasan, has explained such issues. So there is a regulatory board here, it is not that scientists have free pass. The Govt need to clarify this to the people.
Some quotes:

Further, higher life and operatability at 90 percent of the capacity were other features
...
different independent equipment with individual power supply to monitor various aspects were also in place and even if one of them detected any problem, it will be immediately communicated
...
With India possessing 25 percent of the world's thorium deposits, it would help the country generate lakhs of megawatts of power in the next several decades, he said.
...
We are the only country which includes cattle evacuation as part of the exercises as people would not move without them
...
Performance of nuclear power plants the world over has been "fairly satisfactory," he said, adding that only three accidents have occurred in 4,500 reactor years.

From http://post.jagran.com/protests-against ... 1316522226

looks like that the protests will shadow the commissioning of the plant which is going to happen in December
...
the one in Tamil Nadu is "one of the most powerful and modern reactors" in the world

From http://post.jagran.com/work-on-jaitapur ... 1317125867

All aspects of safety are being looked into by Atomic Energy Regulatory Board as well as NPCIL. Necessary recommendations have been made and changes are being made.

So the regulatory board and NPCIL is looking into safety issues. How is it that in spite of all the work done, the Govt. is playing spoilsport and not doing its job?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Sep 2011 11:56

vishvak wrote: So there is a regulatory board here, it is not that scientists have free pass. The Govt need to clarify this to the people.

Actually what is being asked for is a independent regulatory board. Right now its not. Its a old demand BTW, starting from within the nuclear establishment itself.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Sep 2011 16:11

^^ Philip has a valid point .. Even the Catholic church is against people like John Dayal ..

But it is OT here... I reply in the OT thread...

Any way the demand for an independent monitoring committee is justified as long as it does not hinder growth ... We also need a procurement cum monitoring committee for other businesses that deal with radio-active isotopes.. Pretty soon several of our universities will have their own reactors .. IIT-K iirc requested one.. Others will follow.. The Co-60 like incident should never be repeated again ..So a monitoring committee which conducts inspections and ensures that guidelines are followed in 100 + establishments countrywide is justified... However a strict background check is needed for all its members to prevent infiltration by anti-nationals...

As far as electricity generation is concerned steps to ensure that transmission losses are reduced should also be taken....Thats one place where policy of successive govt's have failed...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2011 20:05

Phillip,

OT but I must respond to these baseless accusations.

Please read up on the people before you make wild accusations. Every one of the Priests involved, and there were only 4 involved, is either from mainstream CSI & CBCI. Bishop Christudas is a family relation & I can guarantee his family has sacrificed personally for the Indian nation all the way from the Independence struggle. Are you now calling them and my family relation a CIA plant. What about all the other religious/political groups. Is Vijaykant & AMMA now CIA as well. At some point you have to stop your wild and baseless character assassination of Indian nationals. You are undermining your own country.

Tehelka is not flawless either. AFAIK it did not have any direct evidence other than 'they seem to have some money' and have contacts with people outside India and something called the Joshua project exists. IIRC there are about 30,000 Priests and preachers under the CSI and about 150,000 Priests & Teachers with the CBCI. Do you call all of them as plants because of the actions of a few outside their organization. Every religion has its virulent stream, including Islam & Hinduism. It is up to the mainstream groups to marginalize and re-educate the wacko's. For instance there is no space for the wacko conversion projects in my area as the locals will not allow it.

If you wish to continue we should take this to an off-topic thread. Cease and desist with character assassination here.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Sep 2011 21:01

Tehelka is a congress hit piece, on lines of Diggy Raja. I say this in general irrespective of what their stand on this or any other issue is.

kshatriya · Post by **kshatriya** » 29 Sep 2011 21:24

Not trying to deviate the topic, Vijaykanth and Amma are backing this not to lose the Christian Votes. People from TN know what happened when Jaya tried to do the Anti Conversion Law. This is the same group which votes blindly for INC when their leaders order them. Now their leaders are backing them to sit against the nuclear plant....Most of these people are naive and do what they are being told

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 29 Sep 2011 21:37

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Che ... 486434.ece

“Public acceptance paramount while setting up nuclear plants”

“Public acceptance is a matter of utmost importance in setting up a nuclear power plant. And we have no right to question the questions,” G.R. Srinivasan, former vice-chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, told a discussion organised by the Chemical Industries Association on the Kudankulam Nuclear Power Project (KNPP).

V. Venugopal, former director, Radio Chemistry, BARC, said the major problem with Indian scientists was that they were not meticulous in documentation and that there was a communication gap between the scientific community and the public. This credibility gap should be bridged. He urged scientists to come together and go in for a “structured discussion” without creating a sense of having discordant voices.

Lamenting that the per capita consumption of energy in India was very low, he said only adequate energy would be able to improve GDP which could in turn lead to improvement in quality of life. The impasse over KKNPP is “not a nuclear disaster but a public relations disaster,” observed B.S. Raghavan, former chief secretary of Tripura. Stressing that the fears expressed by the public were genuine, he advised administrators and scientists against imputing motives for the agitation against KNPP.

“Don't make the situation worse by giving spurious arguments,” he said, adding that the issue had reached the present level because of the “miserable failure of approach and expression” by the authorities.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 29 Sep 2011 21:42

Theo_Fidel wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Che ... 486434.ece

And we have no right to question the questions,”
: G.R. Srinivasan, former vice-chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board,

V. Venugopal, former director, Radio Chemistry, BARC,
said the major problem with Indian scientists was that they were not meticulous in documentation and that there was a communication gap between the scientific community and the public. This credibility gap should be bridged.

The impasse over KKNPP is “not a nuclear disaster but a public relations disaster,”
B.S. Raghavan, former chief secretary of Tripura.
Stressing that the fears expressed by the public were genuine, he advised administrators and scientists against imputing motives for the agitation against KNPP.

“Don't make the situation worse by giving spurious arguments,” he said, adding that the issue had reached the present level because of the “miserable failure of approach and expression” by the authorities.

^^^^ I am so glad to see that the Indian Nuclear and other establishment has not been so compromised as US and Western establishments had become.

I wish folks reading the thread could keep their ego's aside and learn from this.

vishvak · Post by **vishvak** » 29 Sep 2011 22:06

From http://www.indianexpress.com/news/veste ... il/853380/
Vested interests at work in Koodankulam, says NPCIL

first of which was to go operational by December. The other was to start six months later. But the protests are likely to wreck the schedule.

Anyway, why not just rub out the so-called western concept of division of religion & state. If it is not effective, no point assuming it selectively.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 30 Sep 2011 10:52

U.S. has “serious concerns” over Indian nuclear liability law

There “continue to be serious concerns” that India’s 2010 nuclear liability law is not consistent with the Convention on Supplementary Compensation (CSC), and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) is an “appropriate venue” for India to clarify such nuclear liability questions, according to the United States State Department.

<snip>

“The Agency can be helpful in assisting countries in evaluating their compliance with the CSC,” the State Department noted.

<snip>

“We encourage India to engage with the IAEA to ensure that India’s liability regime fully conforms with the international requirements under the [CSC].”
<snip>

Mr. Burns had welcomed India’s commitment to ratify the CSC later this year; however he had added that if international and Indian firms were to participate in India’s civil nuclear sector, “India needs a nuclear liability regime consistent with international standards.”
<snip>
Indian Ambassador Nirupama Rao, who also spoke at the same event, said, “On its part, the Government of India is committed to provide a level playing field for all our international partners.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Oct 2011 00:00

Who cares whether its in conformance with CSC minimum guidelines. Nations can add more requirements so suit their needs. If it was less than CSC guidelines then they can whine.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Oct 2011 01:06

NPC, Areva commercial deal for Jaitapur by Dec.

Nuclear Power Corporation (NPC) and French nuclear major Areva are expected to sign a commercial agreement by December for the supply of European Pressurised Reactors (EPRs) of 1,650 Mw for the proposed 9,900 Mw Jaitapur project in Maharashtra.

They entered into an early works contract in December last year and were to sign the final deal in June. This was deferred after the French nuclear safety regulator asked Areva to conduct a fresh review of safety applications in the wake of the Fukushima accident in Japan. Areva gave its report on September 15 to the French regulator, which is to review it and then give its findings to the French government.

Francois Bouteille, Areva’s senior vice president for safety and licensing, told Business Standard: “The French regulator will have an in-depth review in October and November on our comprehensive report on EPR safety applications. The French government is expected to accord its approval by December. The findings will be made available to India’s nuclear regulator, the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board (AERB).”

Bouteille said Areva would not compromise on safety and security. “Once these procedures are complete Areva will be in a position to sign the necessary agreement with NPC,” he observed.

Sreekumar Banjerjee, chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, also said the commercial agreement with Areva would be possible by December. He said NPC had revisited the safety applications at its 20 plants, with generation capacity of 4,780 Mw, and done various upgradations.

From the early works contract between NPC and Areva , the latter is to initially supply two EPRs of 1,650 Mw each and, later, four EPRs of the same capacity. Jaitapur entails an investment of about Rs 1 lakh crore. The commercial agreement would decide the terms on cost of EPRs, as NPC is insisting on localisation to reduce the capital cost and the unit supply rate. Areva has been negotiating with a number of Indian companies to achieve localisation of reactors and other critical nuclear components.

An NPC official, who did not want to be identified, said the post-Fukushima slowdown and postponement of signing of the final works contract with Areva meant the Jaitapur project would be delayed by at least a year. Instead of commissioning in 2017-18, this would be now done in 2018-19.

Said Banerjee: “India needs an energy mix. According to our calculations, nuclear power is competitive and comparatively cheap. It will cost around Rs 4 per unit in 2017-18, which is quite acceptable compared to the (rates) of thermal and gas-based projects.” There would, he said, be no compromise on safety and security.

SureshP · Post by **SureshP** » 02 Oct 2011 17:37

RKumar wrote:I don't know where to post ...it is from Germany. Although I am for Nuclear energy but looking at the cost and our past record of handling waste... I am worried

Dismantling nuke plants to cost €18 billion
The decommissioning process is estimated to cost between €670 million to €1.2 billion per plant. Even more could be necessary in order to store waste materials.
Another one

Nuclear phaseout to cost Germany €250 billion
According to the study by the state-owned investment bank KfW, the planned realignment of Germany's power supply from nuclear to renewables will require "additional investment needs of around €250 billion by 2020."
KfW describes itself as one of the leading sources of finance in the energy sector, estimating that it financed 80 percent of new wind turbines installed in Germany last year, plus 40 percent of solar panels.

There will be technologies which will reduce decommissioning costs by a large margin.

Before carrying on let me declare my own financial interest. I own .25% of OCR and was a investor from day one when the company was formed in Oxford 10 years ago.

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