Indian Naval Discussion

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 05 Dec 2011 11:53

Here is a beautiful article by the Hindu newspaper. This is from December 2010.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 016372.ece
What's that's unique about Indian AIP
Safety ensured

Explaining the technologies available for improving the sub-surface endurance of conventional submarines, he said the AIP being developed by the DRDO also ensured a higher level of safety to the submarine.

“In our technology, we generate hydrogen online on an as-needed basis. If you need more hydrogen when you are going fast, you produce more hydrogen and if you need less hydrogen, you produce less of it. The policy is ‘do not store hydrogen on board,' which ensures a higher level of safety to the platform. Also, we use fuel cells of a different type — phosphoric acid fuel cells — as they can tolerate slightly impure hydrogen. This is because when you produce hydrogen on board, you cannot have very pure hydrogen whereas other companies making fuel cell-based AIP are using PEM (proton exchange membrane) fuel cell, which necessitates hydrogen to be of ‘five-nines' quality, meaning 99.999 percent pure,” he said.

Hydrogen

“The AIP developed by the DCNS, on the contrary, worked on combustion of fuel using a steam turbine and producing electricity,” Mr. Das said. “Some other companies are using fuel cells themselves. They keep hydrogen stored on board. But if you want to be underwater for longer durations, you need larger quantities of hydrogen. Oxygen is required, but both systems use oxygen which is stored as [cryogenic] liquid oxygen…. And when you talk of a submarine's power system, the hydrogen you need is in the order of a couple of tonnes. Further, it has to be carried either in metal hydrides or in compressed cylinders. But high-pressure hydrogen is a potential explosive hazard.”

So the Indian AIP will produce the Hydrogen needed and not store it like in German subs. This makes it safe and will avoid issues like Hydrogen explosion.

(Incidentally, The Hindu has learnt from sources in the Navy that it has asked the DRDO to come up with a fully engineered fuel cell AIP by 2014 for possible use in the last two of the six Scorpene submarines being built in Mumbai's Mazagaon Dock. The Navy has also given sanction for the land-based prototype AIP in August this year.)

The first versions is supposed to be installed on the last two subs scorpene subs. Lets also hope that the next variant of subs will be indigenous and will have the same AIP.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2011 12:26

iirc the AIP being developed for the Amur also has this on-demand production of hydrogen thing per an article posted here recently.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Dec 2011 14:10

India needs a home-built Navy

Though some 49 ships and submarines are under construction (45 in India and four abroad), many important projects are still gathering dust, either at the naval headquarters or the ministry of defence. These include proposals for six indigenous SSKs under Project 75 (I), a dozen OPVs, seven frigates and four destroyers. Awaiting approval is a proposal for the indigenous construction of one 65,000-tonne aircraft carrier.

The six Project 75 (I) SSKs are crucial as they provide critical tactical submarine capability at sea to attack enemy ships and submarines. The tactical SSKs (and SSNs) must not be confused with the strategic SSBNs (or ballistic missile submarines), like the indigenous Arihant class, which are essentially second-strike platforms and play no tactical role in a conventional war. To clarify, India urgently needs
indigenous SSKs, SSNs and SSBNs.

The irony is that while our public sector shipyards are overloaded by 200 to 300 per cent with orders, modern private sector shipyards, like Pipavav, with spare warship and submarine building capacity, are awaiting regulatory approvals. For India to become a great sea power, the combined capacity of all its public and private shipyards must be harnessed for building indigenous warships, submarines and
merchant ships. The proposal for joint ventures — between public and private shipyards — needs to be approved at the earliest, with clear guidelines for optimal output of indigenous shipbuilding.

The writer, a vice-admiral, retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam
.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2011 14:25

If DRDO sucessfully develops this AIP and Navy qualifies it to be on use for Submarine then this will be a big breakthrough and we wont need to import any AIP and could well export it to nations that needs a more safer AIP.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 05 Dec 2011 14:44

Austin wrote:If DRDO sucessfully develops this AIP and Navy qualifies it to be on use for Submarine then this will be a big breakthrough and we wont need to import any AIP and could well export it to nations that needs a more safer AIP.

A very big if, Sir.

It will take many years to qualify but that should not stop us from trying this on our very own.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 05 Dec 2011 14:51

who do we buy this from? afaik the P17 ships and follow ones use Renk gearboxes license made in India by Elecon of pune. one of these had burst into flames due to improper pkging while being transported from plant to mazgaon dock few years ago.
as ADS-1 is using 4xLM2500 engines, I figure they would use same drivetrain ie renk gearboxes.

Since there are only 2 shafts, each gearbox of ADS will have to handle double the power of P-17. In that respect, they will be different from P-17

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2011 15:27

renk seems to have a wide portfolio of marine gear units
http://www.renk.de/index2.php?pageid=72&pub=2

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Dec 2011 15:43

Navy to induct 24 P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 05 Dec 2011 16:05

Wow 24 is a big fleet, one question thiough, it takes years to clear Nag, Arjun, MMRCA, Artillery orders but these orders are getting fast tracked, wonder how priorities are defined.

I am asking because most of our Big ticket purchases recently have been Hawks, PC-7, C-17, MI 17V, C-130J etc etc. Not exactly offensive weapons.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2011 16:12

finally! some meat on the bone here boys.

koti · Post by **koti** » 05 Dec 2011 16:54

Long sticks indeed.

The next move should be to have a dedicated base of these in A&N.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2011 18:10

Notwithstanding the aircraft's (touted) prowess,the indecent haste with which the P-8I is being acquired,bears remarkable similarities to the manner in which the C-17 is also being acquired.We are first told that a small qty. of 8 or 10 aircraft are being acquired,and after the debate has died down,an immediate order for twice that qty,in the case of the P-8 3 times as much for an aircraft that is not even in service with the USN! Why can't we similarly acquire another two Akulas on lease,they have been in service for a long time now and are highly regarded by western navies as the best only after the Seawolf and Virginia classes.

There are many who have screamed at the thought of buying a weapon system without it being in service in a foreign country first,the MIG-29K for example,but the MIG-29 air force version was been in service for decades.The K was nothing more than an upgraded naval variant.If one wants a naval Rafale or EF too,both basic types are already in service,but the P-8? Will its ASW and NCW systems meet parameters as required? We know that the IL-38SDs had problems initially.The stark fact is that wherever a US product can be bought and without too much debate,it is being speedily done,especially as this insidious UPA-2 govt. is fast approaching is sell-by date,if not already! This applies to the other two services as well.See how fast the LCA Mk-2 engine deal was finalised,as will the Jaguar's too!

So why can't other equally,if not more important issues like the second line of subs get the same treatment and attention? Simple truth,that there is no US alternative! If you check out the deals which are moving at lightning speed,for the MOD's track record of being a tortoise,most of those decided upon have been those where US suppliers are in the forefront.I suspect that the huge naval ASW helo requirement,much needed but almost double of earlier numbers stated,is also due to the ticking clock determining the expiraion of the UPA-2 regine.

Coming back to naval matters,and the good admiral's want of a desi built navy,let a tabulation be done of warships and subs acquired from abroad and those built at home,their delivery time,delays and costs as well.We have it officially that our homegrown warships have huge cost overruns,due to late ordering of material or decison-making on weapon systems,unavailability of special steel from abroad or from local plants,non-modernisation of shipyard-though AKA is on record that some delays are not due to this factor.How then can we timely equip the IN with the assets it requires to fight a war? This can only be achieved by three simultaneous routes.

1.Foreign acquisitions,where deliveries have been relatively good as with the Talwars,Italian built tankers,etc.Orders placed in large numbers from the beginning will ensure speed and cost-effectivenes.A third lot of Talwars,a type which has performed very well in service,would be wise,especially if it can be made to house a larger 10t ASW helo or even two KA-31 sized helos and more powerful integral ASW armamaent.A few extra upgraded Kilos with B'mos,as an interim solution until a final design/capability is arrived at for line-2 of subs,is another possibilty.

2.Foreign designed,and locally built Vessels like SoKo MCMs,etc.,can either be acquired in part/full strength from abroad or some built at home.Where we need large numbers and speedy delivery this is perhaps the best compromise.fast attack craft,patrol craft,landing craft,etc.,as well as the new requirement for 4+ amphibious warfare vessels of 20,000t+.

3.Fully designed and built vessels at home,like the IAC-1 and P-28s.One must stress that even here with "locally designed" vessels,a large component is still foeign,either in the weaponry or propulsion systems,as we have yet to develop any truly indigenous powerplant ourselves.We are still awaiting the naval variant of the GT Kaveri!

Even with "local" shipbuilding,the PSU's dominate,taking the cream of orders and are resisting furiously any large defence orders to Pipapav and L&T,who will get the crumbs.If that happens,the shortcomings of the PSU yards will be in full view!
Uless this simultaneous three-street route is taken, with a stick and carot policy,Indian PSU yard will coninue to obtain the best orders and keep on delaying results.

koti · Post by **koti** » 05 Dec 2011 18:37

Philip saab, though your point is very much stark, I believe the above acquisition is a good thing for the navy.
There is no platform that is as cutting edge(touted) and on offer or evaluation. Matching the PLAN sub to sub is out of scope and dangerously titled in the coming decade.
However un competitive the above mentioned two deals are, we were successfully able to wade off US pressure to put JSF down our throat. So did we for the Teens in MMRCA.

I see a good amount of counter balance to the US lobby in our admin circles that is making sure that we make an overall gain eventually.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2011 18:43

Ajat,here is a comparison between the Kilo and Lada/Amur,the latter whichwith B'Mos should be the way to go for a swift induction of diesel AIP subs to replace the aging non-upgraded Kilos.Instead of tryingto design a conventional AIP sub ouselves,we should instead concentrate upon designing and building a fleet of SSGNs based upon ATV-1's experience.A 6-8000t+ SSGN based upon ATV-1 capable of carrying Kulb/B'Mos,K-15 plus Nirbhay,Shkval and other ultra long-enduance anti-sub torpedos like the new French ones,would give us an excellent platform for blue-water ops in the Indo-China Sea and the Pacific waters,plus anywhere in the IOR.Smaller diesel AIP subs best suited for the littorals.Until we are able ti build these SSGNs in series and speedily,a couple more Akulas on lease would be very welcome to stall the PLAN especially in its contingent waters.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 11204.aspx

Xcpt:

December 4, 2011: Russia has begun construction of its second "Improved Kilo" class diesel-electric submarine. These are mostly for the export market, although the Russian Navy is buying a few more of this improved model as well. The Kilos weigh 2,300 tons (surface displacement), have six torpedo tubes and a crew of 57. They are quiet, and can travel about 700 kilometers under water at a quiet speed of about five kilometers an hour. Kilos carry 18 torpedoes or SS-N-27 anti-ship missiles (with a range of 300 kilometers and launched underwater from the torpedo tubes.) The combination of quietness and cruise missiles makes Kilo very dangerous to American carriers. But for the Russians, their Kilos are mostly for home defense. Nuclear subs are used for the long distance work. The successor to the Kilo, the Lada, underwent three years of sea trials before they were declared fit for service two years ago. One has been built and another is under construction and eight are planned. The problem with the Lada is that it is not enough of an improvement on the latest Kilo to attract any export orders.
The Kilo class boats entered service in the early 1980s. Russia only bought 24 of them, but exported over 30. It was considered a successful design, especially with export customers. But just before the Cold War ended in 1991, the Soviet Navy began work on the Lada. This project was stalled during most of the 1990s by a lack of money, but was revived in the last decade.

The Ladas have six 533mm torpedo tubes, with 18 torpedoes and/or missiles carried. The Lada has a surface displacement of 1,750 tons, are 71 meters (220 feet) long and carry a crew of 38. Each crewmember has their own cabin (very small for the junior crew, but still, a big morale boost). When submerged, the submarine can cruise at a top speed of about 39 kilometers an hour (half that on the surface) and can dive to about 250 meters (800 feet). The Lada can stay at sea for as long as 50 days, and the sub can travel as much as 10,000 kilometers using its diesel engine (underwater, via the snorkel). Submerged, using battery power alone, the Lada can travel about 450 kilometers. There is also an electronic periscope (which goes to the surface via a cable), that includes a night vision capability and a laser range finder. The Lada was designed to accept a AIP (air independent propulsion) system. Russia was long a pioneer in AIP design, but in the last decade, Western European nations have taken the lead. Construction on the first Lada began in 1997, but money shortages delayed work for years. The first Lada boat was finally completed in 2005. A less complex version, called the Amur, is being offered for export.

The Ladas are designed to be fast attack and scouting boats. They are intended for anti-surface and anti-submarine operations as well as naval reconnaissance. These boats are said to be eight times quieter than the Kilos. This was accomplished by using anechoic (sound absorbing) tile coatings on the exterior, and a very quiet (skewed) propeller. All interior machinery was designed with silence in mind. The sensors include active and passive sonars, including towed passive sonar.

PS:If we take quick decisions for almost all defence requirements just as we are for the P-8Is and C-17s,and not delaying for decades the artillery decision,which at the moment is the most important one needed to be able to match and dominate both Paki and Chinese forces that could sudenly spring into action,then one would applaud the attitude of the DM and MOD! But what is happening to the second line of subs and other decisions? Why the partiality for US wares? When you have .......anyway,what's the point of talking when many of our decisions appear to be taken in Washington,with only the "dhobimark" of the snake-oil mendicant required!

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Dec 2011 19:10

Kudos to Indian navy they are really planning a head , i am always interested how navy gets it work done with out making all the buzz ,look at the projects they have managed to clear IAC-1 /2 . 4 Arihant class nuke submarine and akula ,not to forget extra mig-29k and hawk ajt . and full support to Naval Tejas . N Tejas has seen delays and problems of over weight of under carage and was a big buzz on media and Navy was professional enough to avoid adding fuel to fire , where else IAF could jump to comment on such situation . army is the worst of the lot it cannot seems to clear any project of it from MOD babus tables for years now

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Dec 2011 19:32

In one sense,one cannot blame the IN ,for if paricular wepon sysem has been ordered ,after a long spell of decision making,ordering the sysetm in a large qty. at the outset can be understood,but it should adopt the same principle when ordering warships and subs.If the MOD can release such large oder for an aircraft
which has never been in service wiht even its own nation,surely it can order warships and subs in similar fashion? Instead of just ordering three ships at a tiome,as has been the case for most orders,it should at the outset order 6-12 and even split the order into both PSU and private yeards to effect local competition,benefiting Indian industry.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 05 Dec 2011 20:22

Very good news - India - America bhai bhai. Sooner or later, this will happen imho. At least the FMS route is quick, and the Indian services need quick induction. I'd liked to have seen a BRahmos on the P8; but I guess that is too much to expect.

CM

Added l8r: The above comment is not to be taken too literally, I only wanted to suggest that a sort of strategic alignment between the two countries, esp. wrt China is likely.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Dec 2011 20:36

@Philip ji , India along with america will be inducting Boeing P-8 Poseidon , Americans have firm orders for 117 aircraft's and will be replacing old Lockheed P-3 Orion in their fleet . and soon enough 15 other operators will also consider them to replace their orions .

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 05 Dec 2011 21:33

24 planes of the Neptune? Very good news and an early Christmas gift to all those who desperately want to shore up the naval defenses of Indian coastline. I think IN should up its orders of 24 to 34 to allow 10 planes patrolling at any time, 10 planes in downtime, and 10 planes in maintenance or training and 4 in reserve. Furthermore, IN should take up Boeing's offer of the naval reconnaissance drone, the Sea Hawk and place order for like 48 of them. This will completely ensure that IN has sufficient resources and manpower to monitor every square inch of Indian coastline and 220 km economic zone, which means that a 11/26 is highly unlikely to happen again.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2011 21:37

we need for Herons to be operated by the coast guard surely...would help in monitoring the andaman's and west coast in a reasonable cost.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Dec 2011 00:52

karan_mc wrote:Navy to induct 24 P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft

Good News !!!
For the next batch of P-8I, I would request that it include Command & Control of UAV's similar to the Australian WedgeTails. Understood that the WedgeTails can only CC the smaller ScanEagles, I believe that this concept has huge potential in co-operative surveillance & high risk or entrapment insertions. By high risk, I mean situations where visual inspection is mandatory in an active enemy area; And by entrapment, I mean situations where the enemy may attempt to lure the P-8I into a trap. By co-operative surveillance, the P-8I will be able to cover larger areas, stick to original flight pattern and many more tasks.

Also, I would wish that the next batch include specialized submarine communication equipment to support our submarines in the wide open waters. This is based on the expectations that the ASW plane should be capable of playing a support role for one's own submarine fleet, including dropping payload/packages, exchanging information, hunting enemy ASW ships and submarines based on information provided by own submarines.

Megh · Post by **Megh** » 06 Dec 2011 02:03

Repaired Tu-142ME (IN312) yesterday flew home back.

Official press release

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2011 02:15

There would be some Indian components though, thanks to the offsets and transfer of technology requirements. India’s Bharat Electronics Ltd has already started supplying its Data Link II system to facilitate the P-8I’s communications with Indian space, naval, and land based-assets.

so, that is a good thing to have..
hope we could see similar ToT in the future
hopefully for other offensive systems
especially in niche areas where
we need the shots up our arms.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Dec 2011 02:54

Those 24 P-8I need to be backed up with addition 24-36 Medium MPA. Given our coastline and threat scenario(s), we need these assets to patrol the huge EEZ. Look at Japan, it has ~ 100 P-3C MPA. IMO, P-3 is a good platform and with modern/latest avionics, should fit the bill.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Dec 2011 03:04

INdeed. They ought to look at either the EMbraer platform or the MRTA for another another fleet.

Leo.Davidson · Post by **Leo.Davidson** » 06 Dec 2011 03:16

Diesel Submarines armed with Brahmos missiles
---------------------------------------------
I do not understand the rush behind arming every platform with the Brahmos missile. Note that each of this missile weights between 2.5 to 3 TONs. And the length is approx 10mts which makes it impossible for tube launch (besides the weight).
I am assuming that these diesel submarines would use the Brahmos as a land attack missile. Diesel submarines do not have sufficient diving depth or speed to escape a counter attack. Incase of Pakistan, the same task can be done by any other naval vessel. Against China, I doubt an Indian diesel submarine will launch an attack on their mainland in the South China Sea.
If the Brahmos is to used as an ASM, then putting them on these puny submarines outweigh it's advantages. Neither are these submarines capable of targeting ships at max range, nor does the Pakistan Navy have sufficient high value targets to justify the Brahmos's rampant proliferation. I doubt there will be any naval war with China, only posturing.

Anyway, our diesel submarine will suffice being armed with Exocet/Harpoon. Both of these are less than 700 kg and are equally effective. If these are not enough, then the Klub-S should be good enough. At 1.5 tonnes and 6.2 mts long, its a tight fit for the diesel submarines.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Dec 2011 04:53

>> I am assuming that these diesel submarines would use the Brahmos as a land attack missile.

nope.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Dec 2011 06:29

rohitvats wrote:Those 24 P-8I need to be backed up with addition 24-36 Medium MPA. Given our coastline and threat scenario(s), we need these assets to patrol the huge EEZ. Look at Japan, it has ~ 100 P-3C MPA. IMO, P-3 is a good platform and with modern/latest avionics, should fit the bill.

the way Rupee is sliding real value of our forex reserve might start looking moderate soon... do we actually audit FMS sales for any kick-backs?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2011 06:41

CAG should and must.

member_20067 · Post by **member_20067** » 06 Dec 2011 07:28

SaiK wrote:CAG should and must.

yes.. suddenly it is like free for all.. grabbing.. !! I just hope we are not out-spending ourselves at the cost of Nuclear subs and IAC lines... next 3-4 yrs is definitely going to be tough on Economy... just now S&P issued a warning to practically entire Europe on rating downgrade.. people who think we are immuned to this global epidemic are living in fool's dream

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 06 Dec 2011 10:56

http://idrw.org/?p=5674

Bell Boeing to brief India on V-22 Osprey

The US Bell Boeing collaboration on the V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor is to brief India on the aircraft sometime early next year. In a meeting held at the Dubai Air Show last month, Minister of State for Defense, Mallipudi Mangapati Pallam Raju, accompanied by the deputy chief of the Indian Navy, Vice Admiral Satish Soni, asked for a briefing on the aircraft.

Bob Carrese, Executive Director of V-22 Business Development of the Bell Boeing Tiltrotor Team spoke to StratPost at the show, saying, “We did have an Indian delegation that came by, the minister – we briefed him on this. We’ve been invited to give another brief to the staff – the naval staff.” Carrese says Admiral Soni was the ‘gentleman who actually requested the brief on the airborne early warning platform on the V-22?. “V-22 as an AEW (Airborne Early Warning) platform,” he said.
This is not the first time the navy has been briefed on the aircraft, but as India moves to firm up designs of the two aircraft carriers it is building at Cochin Shipyard, the navy’s plans for aircraft acquisitions to fully equip the carrier groups with onboard and complementary land-based platforms, replace aging platforms and move towards all-round aerial capabilities, are also due to be set in stone. Carrese says they’ve briefed India on the platform earlier and will make an updated presentation again, ‘probably at the beginning of next year’

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2011 11:10

P3 is not a medium MPA, its a big long range MPA which our P8I covers. also I dont think its in new production anymore...just the spares pipeline is there for existing users.

there are smaller planes on offer for the medium MPA role...including a stripped down P8I itself!

of this whole motley crew at the Syawamvar, I support on a unscientific basis the Falcon900 for the IN ( long range , good transit speed to back up the P8I in deep water and long loiter ops) and ATR72 for the CG to supplement and eventually replace all the Do228. the CG should also be given their own sqdns of Herons and Searchers to economize on manned patrols...because CG aircraft are just for monitoring and cueing ships to the scene...not for attack.

from defenceindustrydaily:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Ind ... ons-05247/

The other MPA holdover is a maritime patrol version of Dassault’s Falcon 900, which was reportedly submitted by Israel’s IAI Elta. The tri-engined aircraft offers more attractive operating costs than a P-8, and its 4,100-4,500 nautical mile/ 7,600-8,330 km unrefueled range would allow for both long patrols of India’s coastline and deployments across the Indian Ocean. Israel has a good reputation for delivering capable and reliable military equipment, and a MRMR aircraft that can also fill high-end roles may be attractive, but the Falcon 900 will be more expensive than several of the other rumored contenders.

In a similar vein, Brazil’s Embraer modifies its own ERJ-145 regional jets into sophisticated surveillance platforms. India’s DRDO is already using it as the base for a locally-produced mid-tier AEW&C airspace control plane, and other Embraer versions exist for land and maritime surveillance.

The P-99 MPA/ EMB-145MP has been ordered by Mexico (2), and an armed variant is rumored as a contender for India’s MRMR as well. At 1,876 miles/ 3,019 km, its range is less than the Falcon’s but still more than adequate for the requirement. Embraer, like Canada’s Bombardier, is working to make inroads into India’s civil aviation industry, and those efforts will help position the firm for industrial offset requirements.

A third jet-powered contender is Antonov’s AN-74MP variant of its unusual AN-72/-74 transports. This aircraft family is immediately recognizable by the two turbofan engines mounted in and over its wings, in a manner reminiscent of Boeing’s YC-14. This arrangement allows take-off on short and/or unimproved runways, while carrying up to 10.5t of cargo. The modernized AN-74MP variant features various cameras, along with the ability to mount guns and unguided rockets or bombs.

The AN-74MP offers India the greatest versatility in troop-carrier, cargo/ disaster relief, and medevac roles. On the flip side, it also offers a narrower customer base for its core aircraft type, and less sophisticated surveillance systems and weapons than other contenders in this field. It was unveiled to the broader aviation public at Aero India 2009.

The next 3 rumored contenders are both turboprops. They offer more economical low-level flight costs, in exchange for shorter ranges and slower transit time to patrol areas or emergency situations.

EADS subsidiary ATR and Alenia Aeronautica have crated the larger ATR-72, which has been ordered by Turkey and Italy to fulfill maritime patrol requirements. The ATR and its smaller ATR-42 are both regional civil transport aircraft. Alenia’s modifications include sophisticated surveillance gear and, in the case of the ATR-72 ASW, a long Magnetic Anomaly Detector in the back that helps it find submarines, and pylons/launchers for weapons.

The ATR-72 ASW is rumored as a candidate for the Indian Navy’s MRMR, while the smaller ATR-42MP Surveyor, which has been ordered by Italy, Nigeria, and Libya, and has attracted interest from Pakistan, is a rumored candidate for the Coast Guard’s MRMR.

In May 2011, Saab joined the competition, offering its Saab 2000 MPA turboprop, along with the firm’s phased array maritime radar and RBS-15 anti-ship and land attack missiles. Like many other MRMR competitors (R-99, Falcon, ATR-72), the aircraft is a modified business/ regional transport plane.

In its Maritime Patrol role, the Saab 2000 MPA maintains a cruising speed of 350 knots, and can operate at a maximum range exceeding 2,000 nautical miles, with mission endurance exceeding 9.5 hours. Those figures depend on conditions and flight profiles, of course – the same plane would cover a 200 nm Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) for 5.5 hours at an altitude of only 2,000 ft, or extend patrol times by flying up to 31,000 feet and relying on its radar. Saab is also touting the 2000 MPA’s ability to operate from high altitude airfields, taking off with maximum load and fuel even at very hot temperatures.

Saab also offers an AWACS variant of this aircraft family for airspace command and control, and counts Pakistan among its customers. That’s good, in that it offers proven operational capability in similar conditions. It’s bad because India has historically been reluctant to share platforms with Pakistan – but it has happened (vid. IL-76/78 transports). The RBS-15 Mk.3 is a fine missile, but it may also be a drawback. That depends on India’s reaction to adding yet another anti-ship missile type, on top of its existing stocks of Russian (Klub, BrahMos), French (Exocet), and American (Harpoon) weapons.

EADS other subsidiary EADS-CASA has carved out a leading role for its maritime surveillance turboprops. The CN-235MP Persuader is in service with a number of countries, including the US Coast Guard, and has just been ordered by South Korea’s Coast Guard. Unsurprisingly, it’s a rumored candidate for India’s Coast Guard MRMR. If so, it’s likely to be a leading candidate, and the affiliation with Airbus gives them good industrial benefits options.

The larger C-295MP has been ordered by Chile, and modified C-295 light transport aircraft already serve in a search and rescue role with a number of countries.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2011 11:15

http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/def ... y.html?L=1

patrol time of 3 hrs @ 1200 NM from base....impressive for such a small plane. and it can reach there fast given its 3 engines.

a typical patrol of 300 NM away from base might give it loiter time of 7-8 hrs...a good thing given our low inventory levels and lack of spare tankers to go out and sustain these MPA birds over the sea.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ol-199947/

onlee issue is till date it has found no customers...unlike some of the other contenders like EMB and CASA.

probably IAF will go for a proven commodity like CN-235MP Persuader..it can carry 4 harpoon/exocet or LWTs.

vic · Post by **vic** » 06 Dec 2011 11:33

I think that heavier turboprop version of Rustom UAV (MTOW around 5 tons) will be the best AEW for the Navy

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2011 11:35

since it hasnt even flown yet, chances are it will take 5+ yrs for certification and then another 2-3 yrs minimum to qualify all mission payloads dont you think?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2011 11:38

A fleet of 24 P-8I is what we need , finally we will have a beefy fleet of LRMP to cover IOR , Bay of Bengal and Arabian.

I think they will probably divide the feet into 8 P-8I for each Naval Command.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Dec 2011 11:39

Did they fix all the problems with steroid injected osprey? That triangular chappati is an artists imagination? quite likely since the vertical tilt of the rotor can slice that off!

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 06 Dec 2011 12:30

Austin wrote:A fleet of 24 P-8I is what we need , finally we will have a beefy fleet of LRMP to cover IOR , Bay of Bengal and Arabian.

I think they will probably divide the feet into 8 P-8I for each Naval Command.

A complimentary order of 36 to 48 BAMS UAV should have been ordered as well. Makes it easy to patrol for SuW track and classify all along arabian sea and bay of bengal on will. Cheaper than launching so many sats to keep eyes.

24 P8I + 8 il-38 + 8 tu-142 aren't a bad deal.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Dec 2011 12:53

good pick Cy. the BAMS MQ4-C will come precertified for the Poseidon as mother ship and relay stn.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Dec 2011 13:10

The Osprey being able to perform vert. landings on deck would be extremely useful both for AEW as well as COBOD (logistics) which are being performed now by Hawkeye/Greyhunds.Provided all technical matters with the aircraft have been sorted out,there have been several crashes during development,and the bird is not outrageously expensive,this is the way to go for the IN. Such an acquisition would be a force multiplier,as the Osprey is a truly visionary aircraft,particularly suited for large carrier ops.It also means that we must build in future 65,000t+ carriers able to carry a suitable complelent of strike aircraft and the req. helos,AEW aircraft/helos too.

Brahmos is supersonic,not subsonic and has a quantum effect when fired aaginst an enemy target giving it very little time to defend itself.Both Europe and the US are developing their own supersonic anti-ship missiles.This is where India and Russia have a huge head start against others with Brahmos,especially if carried by our subs.A conventional diesel/AIP sub with 8 Brahmos,plus upto 18 torpedos,a few ASW Klubs would be a very fornidable underwater asset.A Russian Amur or even a Kilo modified as mentioned for the purpose would not cost more than a Scorpene.Building these subs would be faster than acquiring any nuclear attack boats.If the IN has a 1/3rd to 2/3rd ratio betwen nuclear and AIP subs,it would be excellent.

Retaining the TU-142s for as long as there is life in them,is wise as their range is unmatched.When they are eventually retired,they would be best replaced by a long-range bomber like Backfires or Blackjacks,so thta we cam sanitise the entire IOR,plus conduct offensive ops in the Indo-China Sea and even in the Pacific waters to counter PLAN forces.