AugustaWestland Bribery Cover-Up, Italian Marines Let Go

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 15 Mar 2013 08:01

on arnabs program the Italian participants arrogantly bluff around

the absolute racism comes out

mofos

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 15 Mar 2013 10:04

^ Racism part hurts the most.

Anyone living in a western country will be pulling his hair off at the following:

- They were allowed to live in guest houses when they should have been in prison
- They were allowed to leave the country, not once but twice

I will echo CPM's sentiment and would like to know the logic behind the decision to let these people go out of country to vote. These two marines were booked for murder not prank calls.

On a slightly different topic, although Taqiya was conceived in Arabia, it was perfected in Italia. They are famous for Taqiya, culture wise that is. I am surprised that Indian government officials did not know it. They need to read BRF more often.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 15 Mar 2013 10:40

What's gonna happen (assuming this isn't just pre-planned diversion drama) is the EYEtalian ambassador will do a Julian Assange and hide in the Italian embassy (or some other European embassy). Maybe even the US embassy. Until he can get smuggled out or after a hue & cry about his "human rights". If the govt really intends to put him on trail, the govt should be arresting him now not waiting for yet another EYEtalian to give them YET another slip.

Strangely the European Human Rights commission is deathly silent about the human rights of the dead fishermen.

Well lets wait and see what action (if any) the govt takes. I'm betting a dollar nothing will come of it and India will be the laughing stock.

Who wants to hold a passport of a sh&tty country that can't even defend its citizens who get murdered. Hell you got countries defending citizens who are murderers.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Mar 2013 10:52

The next stage is for Indians to lay a siege on Italian Embassy in Delhi and the consulates in Mumbai and Kolkata and demand the return of the Italian Marines.

We have the moral right on our side:
- Italians killed Indian fishermen
- Italians absconded Indian justice through deceit

This makes it an international issue. Both international media and Indian media would have to cover it. Show some of the Italian arrogance to Indians. Bring the anti-Italian sentiment in India to a boil.

Students should take the initiative and lay dharna. This should go on for one year at least!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 15 Mar 2013 11:43

TVR Shenoy, is one brilliant Indian journalist that I completely respect. Read in full.

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/marin ... 130315.htm

Marines and chopper deal: 'Italian Hand' at work?
'We seem to be reliving the sleaziest days of the 1980s,' says T V R Shenoy.

In May 1985 Rajiv Gandhi [ Images ] -- then still bearing the halo of the 'Mr Clean' of Indian politics -- told Parliament that his government was against purchasing Westland A-30 helicopters. The gist of his statement was: 'I know something about aviation. And I would not accept the Westland-30 even if it were offered free.'

Ten months later then civil aviation minister Jagdish Tytler announced that India had agreed to purchase 21 Westland A-30s, the same helicopters that his prime minister had publicly described as unsafe.

There must have been something in the air that March of 1986; it was the same month that India signed the Bofors deal.

Rajiv Gandhi's first instincts were correct. The Westland-30 was a disastrous choice. One crashed in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ], another crashed in Nagaland, and pilots were refusing to fly them. The engine needed servicing every 70 hours. The rotor capacity was poor.

It turned out that the Westland-30 had never been tested with a full load in India's tropical climate.
.............................................
The story of that first great folly of the Rajiv Gandhi ministry does not end there. That junk came in useful when AgustaWestland wanted to route kickbacks in 2007.
Global Trade and Commerce, a company belonging to Christian Michel, one of the middlemen in the VVIP helicopter deal, was paid 18 million Euros, supposedly to buy back the 19 helicopters.
......
There are two parallels between 1986 and 2007, namely the manufacturer and the missing tests to see whether the helicopters were suitable for India's harsh climate.

Field tests were conducted only in Britain. And those for the Sikorsky S-92, a rival model under consideration, were held only in the United States. This is a clear breach of the standing orders, and any investigation must hold those responsible to account.

Someone then took a bad situation and made it worse. After the deal was signed somebody in India decided to add three parameters to the AgustaWestland AW 101.

First, a Traffic Collusion Avoidance System (TCAS II) was added.

Second, an Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System was added. Third, Medevac systems were added.

Here is how such scams operate. Step One: Deliberately ignore certain essential parameters when floating a tender.

Step Two: Choose a supplier (after suitable 'negotiations'), and sign a contract.

Step Three: 'Discover' the importance of the missing parameters after the contract is signed.

Step Four: Negotiate a new, obviously higher, price for fitting in the fresh requirements.

The difference between the original price and renegotiated price is where there is scope for making money.

Interestingly, there are reports from 'sources' -- Delhi code for deliberate leaks -- that Pranab Mukherjee's [ Images ] finance ministry raised same questions about the changing of parameters in 2009. This reminds me of the same ministry's famous note on the 2G spectrum scam, which seemed to implicate not just A Raja but also P Chidambaram

his is the same substandard work that led to the release of the two Italian Marines, Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone. The excuse offered was that Italy [ Images ] does not permit postal ballots in a general election, something that Additional Solicitor General P P Malhotra reportedly could not rebut.

Why not? Fed the string 'Italy postal ballots', Google took precisely 0.43 seconds to provide the information that Italy does permit postal voting.

Now, do you see why I said we seem to be reliving the sleaziest days of the 1980s?

Defence purchases are made under controversial circumstances, and nobody is held accountable.

Shoddy staffwork leads to suspects leaving India, and it is virtually impossible to lay hands on them again once they are out.

The same shabby acts of commission (pun fully intended) and omission. The same stale excuses.

Is it also the same 'fine Italian hand' at work?
[ Images ].

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 15 Mar 2013 11:48

In an ideal scenario this case should be a god sent opportunity for India to assert itself in the EU league. India should announce its resolve and might. Screw Italy and their citizens in every possible way. Arrest their envoy, harass their tourists (frisking and all), block economic ties, blacklist their arms companies, create Sunny Deol type movies on this case and show them in entire EU. After china it's our time to show the middle finger to the world.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 15 Mar 2013 12:03

Kannan wrote:Diatribes aside, this is probably the most the Indian government has pretended to give a shit about one of its citizens in ages

Union Carbide case a.k.a. Bhopal Gas Durghatna was the worst. History will never forgive us for that.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 15 Mar 2013 12:12

Just a thought: Had the victims been Muslims, a huge set of political parties starting from SP to BSP, RJD, JDU etc. along with NGOs, WKKs would have launched an onslaught on the government. The news channels would be showing how poor the victims were and how helpless they are left now - meanwhile showing them offering namaz in between.

PS: Can fellow BRFite from Kerala share the news on how the locals are reacting to this?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 15 Mar 2013 12:57

beseiging embassies, detaining envoys is against the vienna convention on diplomatic behaviours - that can easily backfire on us - its very much 'argo' territory

GOI needs to undertake a media campaign to highlight the plight of the bereaved families - create international sympathy for the poor SDRE's and disgust for the boorish italian neo-colonialists. back that up with the threat of real economic sanctions - and you'll start seeing things happen

there is a more serious international law problem to be resolved though - i dont have the answers but the trial is not straight forward and there are many issues to be thought through

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Mar 2013 13:29

Agro is

- harassing tourists
- attacking embassy compounds
- violence in general against Italians

That is not what I favor!

I favor huge demonstrations and a Tahir Square outside the embassy and consulates! One can take an emotional posture of anger without resorting to violence.

Unless people don't show their anger very publicly, expect everything to fade away! Nobody would be shaken, not GoI, not Italy and not world opinion.

Why would UPA and their media want to publicize the situation? Only public anger would move the story!

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 15 Mar 2013 14:04

This is going to be pretty interesting, the Supreme Court stepped up and is in a difficult position, pretty much a point of no return and the courts sidelined MEA mumbo jumbo giri,which basically let (GoI) off the hook.

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 15 Mar 2013 14:13

Lalmohan wrote:beseiging embassies, detaining envoys is against the vienna convention on diplomatic behaviours - that can easily backfire on us - its very much 'argo' territory

S Swami on NDTV yesterday was saying that as per vienna convention the host country cannot forcefully indulge a foreign envoy into formal criminal proceedings. THIS is what the diplomatic immunity is all about. But in this case the envoy himself has indulged into the proceedings through Indian legal system and have even hired an Indian lawyer and filed the affidavit. In other words, he has himself given up his diplomatic immunity and betrayed the court. So now he is subject to be trialed by the Indian court.

I don't know how accurate it is but it seems we certainly have a case.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 15 Mar 2013 14:14

It's clear to even the most retarded that SAlman Khurshid's ineptness is matched by his stupendous innocuousness, and the statements coming from him when they do are an excuse for inaction or a substitute for achievement. That it falls to the supreme court and Subramanian Swamy to initiate this action speaks volumes.
Machiavelli who the Italians no doubt study always cautioned against incremental steps because the counterparty is able to accommodate to any change.
The GOI from the outset should think big instead of incremental - one can always row back or compromise from an extreme position if there is a tangible outcome. In no particular order:

Closure and a complete halt to all diplomatic and military activities
A complete economic embargo
No further cultural or religious exchanges
Italian based religious/NGO groups to have visas revoked
Barring Italian companies from defending their IP interests in Indian courts
Non recognition of Italian trademarks
Banning Italian aircraft from using India's airspace
Banning all Italian vessels from entering or transiting India's EEZ as they are a threat to the livelihood of Indian fishermen
Attaching assets held by Italian banks, insurance and finance companies in India
Italian companies will not be allowed to bid for licenses in the media telecoms sector
European companies seeking contracts in India will have to declare whether they are linked with Italian companies
No support by India through the IMF, World Bank for credit extensions

These are doable from the outset as the US has been doing this to India and others for years and the GATT/WTO has provision for extraordinary circumstances, which this is and I don't think German bankers and businesses are too keen on losing India Inc because the ambassador was economical with the truth.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 15 Mar 2013 16:20

kapilrdave wrote:Can fellow BRFite from Kerala share the news on how the locals are reacting to this?

In Kerala this has not caused any huge uproar as expected. The catholic church has kept a stoic silence. I remember seeing a small report which said that one Bishop (Susai Pakiam??) did defend the Italians. But that was it. The Chief Minister has said that he is all sad and upset and would take this up with the Central Govt. But the ruling that Kerala has no jurisdiction here, would off course save the state government.

The commies are also up in arms, but here again the fact that the case moved out of Kerala state jurisdiction does not allow them much leeway. The commies could have done a public property destruction campaign if such a thing happened inside the state.

To sum it up. There is angst, contempt (for GoI) and a sense of helplessness in the state. But nothing more concrete than that. Off course the standard facebook stuff like sharing sarcastic jokes, pictures etc. are going on as usual.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Mar 2013 17:55

Article 31
1 A diplomatic agent shall enjoy immunity from the criminal jurisdiction of the receiving State.
He shall also enjoy immunity from its civil and administrative jurisdiction, except in the case of:
(a) A real action relating to private immovable property situated in the territory of the receiving State, unless he holds it on behalf of the sending State for the purposes of the mission;
(b) An action relating to succession in which the diplomatic agent is involved as executor,
administrator, heir or legatee as a private person and not on behalf of the sending State;
(c) An action relating to any professional or commercial activity exercised by the diplomatic agent in the receiving State outside his official functions.
2. A diplomatic agent is not obliged to give evidence as a witness.
3. No measures of execution may be taken in respect of a diplomatic agent except in the cases coming under subparagraphs (a), (b) and (c) of paragraph 1 of this article, and provided that the measures concerned can be taken without infringing the inviolability of his person or of his residence.
4. The immunity of a diplomatic agent from the jurisdiction of the receiving State does not exempt him from the jurisdiction of the sending State.

Article 32
1. The immunity from jurisdiction of diplomatic agents and of persons enjoying immunity under article 37 may be waived by the sending State.
2. Waiver must always be express.
3. The initiation of proceedings by a diplomatic agent or by a person enjoying immunity from jurisdiction under article 37 shall preclude him from invoking immunity from jurisdiction in respect of any counterclaim directly connected with the principal claim.
4. Waiver of immunity from jurisdiction in respect of civil or administrative proceedings shall not be held to imply waiver of immunity in respect of the execution of the judgement, for which a separate waiver shall be necessary.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Mar 2013 18:21

Diplomatic Immunity or Impunity?

Although Kashyap claims that Mancini lost immunity when he stood as a guarantor for the return of Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone, the SCI record shows that Mancini did so as a representative of the Italian government, not in his private capacity, thus not being subject to the exceptions stated in Article 31 of the VCDR: “petitioner No.3, the Ambassador of Italy to India…Daniele Mancini…representing the applicant No.3…”

Italy Vs. India: Untangling a Mess

But there are exceptions to the immunity rule. Article 32 of the Vienna convention precludes diplomats from invoking immunity in legal proceedings they initiate. It’s unclear whether the exception applies in this case, as the ambassador turned to the Supreme Court not in his personal capacity but on behalf of the government of Italy.

The court’s order came in response to a contempt-of-court petition filed by Subramanian Swamy, a politician with the opposition Janata Party, earlier that day.

“I have argued that since the ambassador himself voluntarily entered India’s legal process… he has lost his immunity due to his own actions,” he said.

If Italy believes the Supreme Court’s restraint order contravenes the Vienna convention, it can take India to the International Court of Justice to resolve this dispute.

Marines case: Despite SC order, Italy’s envoy could fly the coop

The waiver of immunity from jurisdiction in respect of civil and administrative proceedings (to which Mancini had given his consent when he gave the undertaking) does not extend to the execution of the Supreme Court judgement (restraining him from leaving the country) in the absence of a “separate waiver” from the Italian government.

“For (the Italian Ambassador’s) immunity to be waived, there has to be an express waiver – and that has to be given by the Italian government,” Sibal pointed out. “There is nothing so far to suggest that any such waiver has been given, and without that, his immunity is intact

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 15 Mar 2013 18:30

Any info on laws of treason in India. Can the leaders of government/ Judges of Supreme Court be tried of Treason?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 15 Mar 2013 18:39

Muppalla wrote:Any info on laws of treason in India. Can the leaders of government/ Judges of Supreme Court be tried of Treason?

Impeachment?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 15 Mar 2013 18:42

Impeachment? That means you need to have 2/3 votes in Parl. So India's national agencies like RAW or CBI cannot do a swift arrest of elected leaders or SC judges for treason.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 15 Mar 2013 18:43

Gerard good set of points and perhaps expulsion would be the better way for this to go instead of contempt hearings. Does anyone know the contents of the letter the ambassador furnished the HC in Kerala when the marines sought a Christmas release. Apparently the contents are still sealed. Would be interested to know if the ambassador had waived his immunity?
The next time a European ambassador appears in a court, the courts should be very reluctant to grant any relief based on this outcome.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Mar 2013 18:43

I don't consider the Italian Ambassador personally guilty. Whatever he did he did it at the insistence of the government of Italy, not in his personal capacity. I said this earlier as well.

It is Italy as a country that went back on its promise, basically refusing to accept the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court of India.

So the question, is what to do with Italy, not with the Italian Ambassador! If one wants to punish somebody, then one should punish Italy as a country, not the Italian Ambassador. His diplomatic immunity stands.

Either one brings one's justice to Italy, by continuing the process against the Italian Marines in absentia, sentencing them, and if they refuse to come to India for their sentences, using unconventional methods to bring justice to them. After all, George W. Bush also promised to bring OBL to justice, and his successor than carried it out; or
We can punish Italy in some way - militarily, economically, diplomatically, etc. The level of punishment should correspond to how they treated India's Supreme Court.
We can punish those guilty in India, who colluded in the bringing about the current mess.

It is one thing that a court does not have possession over the accused as its sovereignty is limited to the borders of the country and as such justice is hampered. However if justice becomes hampered because one has lost possession over the accused, then those who screwed up, should face the music!

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 18:59

When everyone involved in this farce from Indian side participated willingly why should we single out Italian Amby for harsh treatment. After serving Judiciary for many many years if CJI does not know about postal ballot or pretending to be naive and cant verify if affidavit submitted by the Amby is correct or not and when PP makes submission which defies logic and when UPA signs agreement and ratifies in a hurry and when Supreme Court rules out jurisdiction of local court then we have little business in pointing out italian perfidy. It is Italian perfidy , no doubt, but there are more actors from Indian side. Prestige of a nation is put to sale by UPA/Kongis. Now this drama from the highest forum in the land is nothing sort of amusing. Same was seen during VKS time.

Funny part is that UPA.Kongis and GOI have washed their hands off and they have put the blame squarely in the court of SC which is left holding an illegitimate affair red faced.

Amby is nothing but a pawn in the great charade.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 15 Mar 2013 19:12

^^^
+100.
The only analysis remaining is did Italy used the copter deal to manipulate the system? Does the system included the CJI via some other deals. One thing that really exposed in this UPA-2 government is that Indian Supreme Court judges are part of the overall mafia.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 15 Mar 2013 19:13

The Italy wants to hide their diplomat's trickery behind diplomatic immunity. The marines are home safe. This uproar will die down too, it is just matter of days, after all, 26/11 was toned down successfully, this is nothing, a mere loss of two insignificant fishermen, who cares? Democracy in Italy is more important, that's why the Italians went home to vote, I think we are looking at it wrongly.

Like bones thrown at a dog, couple of "Theek hain", hum dheken ge, "we strongly condemn", "Italy must return marines" would suffice to pacify the Indian masses and opposition. Lets move on, too much time has been spent...okay next scam please.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 19:18

Gerard wrote:
Marines case: Despite SC order, Italy’s envoy could fly the coop
The waiver of immunity from jurisdiction in respect of civil and administrative proceedings (to which Mancini had given his consent when he gave the undertaking) does not extend to the execution of the Supreme Court judgement (restraining him from leaving the country) in the absence of a “separate waiver” from the Italian government.

“For (the Italian Ambassador’s) immunity to be waived, there has to be an express waiver – and that has to be given by the Italian government,” Sibal pointed out. “There is nothing so far to suggest that any such waiver has been given, and without that, his immunity is intact

I expected Sibal to say this. And he is right. Mancini did not say in his affidavit that he is waiving his diplomatic immunity. Neither such an assurance was sought for by Kabir. He is giving assurance within the confinement of his diplomatic immunity. Taking unilateral action on the envoy when our own are guilty as hell would have disastrous consequences and when NDA comes to power in 2014 , if at all, then they would be facing the mess left by UPA.

Mancini has not committed any criminal act. Contempt of court does not fall within purview of criminal jurisdiction. Hence Diplomatic immunity can not be treated as either waived or falling under exception clause.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 19:21

The only thing GOI can do is to delcare him PNG and allow him to fly away. That is what would have been factored into while planning this charade. Or if you arrest his , rest assured your staffers are not coming back and Italian staffers are not going back. It would be a major diplomatic incident unparalleled in the history. UPA does not have balls to to that and rather they are the planners and executors.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 19:24

Muppalla wrote:
The only analysis remaining is did Italy used the copter deal to manipulate the system? Does the system included the CJI via some other deals. One thing that really exposed in this UPA-2 government is that Indian Supreme Court judges are part of the overall mafia.

What Copter deal????

That is all part of what they do since the days of Snam Progetti.

Other parts are absolutely correct. Nothing is white , everything is gray.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 19:26

VenuG you asked about International laws. There is only one law in international relations. Might is right. All else is Maya.

vic · Post by **vic** » 15 Mar 2013 19:30

Story of another Honest CJI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raghunandan_Swarup_Pathak

Pathak was made a judge at Supreme Court of India in 1978 and became its 18th Chief Justice on 21 December 1986. Pathak facilitated an out of court settlement between Union Carbide Corporation and the Government of India in 1989 regarding the compensation to be paid for the Bhopal gas tragedy. The government had sought $3.3 billion but received a piffling $470 million and the settlement resulted in the dropping of criminal liability charges against Carbide in the case. Within three months of his retirement Pathak became a member of the International Court of Justice at The Hague

Pathak was elected a judge of the International Court of Justice and served in that position from 1989 to 1991. He was elected in “casual election” that was held following the death of M. Nagendra Singh, an Indian judge who was then serving his second term at the International Court. In 1991 India decided not to renominate Pathak, who however entered the fray with the backing of Ireland. After the Irish government came under attack in the Dail from MPs who blamed Pathak for approving, as Chief Justice of India, the $470-million Bhopal gas disaster settlement with Union Carbide, Pathak withdrew from the race.

In November 2005, Justice Pathak was appointed to inquire into alleged Indian links in the Oil-for-Food Programme. On August 3, 2006, he submitted his 90-page report which indicted suspended Congress leader and former External Affairs Minister K. Natwar Singh

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 15 Mar 2013 19:38

RajeshA,
I agree in part. India should not just target the Ambassador , without targetting the Italian government as a whole. However, the ambassador deserves some kind of punishment for being a willful pawn in the game. He was the jihadi (Kasab) who carried out the orders, while the plotters are the Italian government (like the terrorist scum Hafeez Sayeed) sitting far away. We should still punish the Kasab, while ultimately punishing the Italian government, commensurate with the orchestrated betrayal that they perpetrated on India.

Here are a couple of options. They may be slightly over the top, but will communicate our resolve to EU and the rest of the world in general.
Close down our embassies in Italy and ask them to wind up their embassies within India.
Ban any business dealings with Italy for the next few decades and disallow any foreign purchase that has an Italian component in it.

rgosain · Post by **rgosain** » 15 Mar 2013 19:44

rgsrini: completely agree with you and have furnished a list of the minimum that should be done (see above). There is little to be gained from an incremental approach. Banning transactions involving Italian banks would affect the Family.

member_22872 · Post by **member_22872** » 15 Mar 2013 19:49

chaankya garu, thanks. You are right, but unfortunately, we lost our marbles or haven't grown them yet...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 15 Mar 2013 19:55

chaanakya wrote:
Muppalla wrote:
The only analysis remaining is did Italy used the copter deal to manipulate the system? Does the system included the CJI via some other deals. One thing that really exposed in this UPA-2 government is that Indian Supreme Court judges are part of the overall mafia.
What Copter deal????

That is all part of what they do since the days of Snam Progetti.

Other parts are absolutely correct. Nothing is white , everything is gray.

Copter deal - I mean AugustaWestland bribery. What I am saying did they use the bribery stuff to blackmail Indian government to get marines released?

Regarding Snam Progetti stuff, I lost an article that I saved from 80s which has given a statistical analyisis of how the Indian fertilizers are expensive because of this Italian technology. During the same times there was a competitive bidding by French technology. Indira/Rajiv governments went with Italian ones for obvious reasons. The articles says had we not gone with Italian ones, India's fertilizer subsidy would be half.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 20:00

Muppalla wrote:

What Copter deal????

That is all part of what they do since the days of Snam Progetti.

Other parts are absolutely correct. Nothing is white , everything is gray.
Copter deal - I mean AugustaWestland bribery. What I am saying did they use the bribery stuff to blackmail Indian government to get marines released?

Regarding Snam Progetti stuff, I lost an article that I saved from 80s which has given a statistical analyisis of how the Indian fertilizers are expensive because of this Italian technology. During the same times there was a competitive bidding by French technology. Indira/Rajiv governments went with Italian ones for obvious reasons. The articles says had we not gone with Italian ones, India's fertilizer subsidy would be half.

I know.

But again what blackmail. Everything is willingly done. It is collusion.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 20:06

Diplomatic immunity is inviolable and it is on reciprocal basis.
The most GOI can do is to declare him PNG and ask to leave the country within 24 Hrs. Till such time he can enjoy our legendary hospitality and cock a snook at us.

Let us see what happens on 18th or 22nd. Sop Opera would be interesting.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 15 Mar 2013 20:17

rgsrini wrote:RajeshA,
I agree in part. India should not just target the Ambassador , without targetting the Italian government as a whole. However, the ambassador deserves some kind of punishment for being a willful pawn in the game. He was the jihadi (Kasab) who carried out the orders, while the plotters are the Italian government (like the terrorist scum Hafeez Sayeed) sitting far away. We should still punish the Kasab, while ultimately punishing the Italian government, commensurate with the orchestrated betrayal that they perpetrated on India.

Here are a couple of options. They may be slightly over the top, but will communicate our resolve to EU and the rest of the world in general.
Close down our embassies in Italy and ask them to wind up their embassies within India.
Ban any business dealings with Italy for the next few decades and disallow any foreign purchase that has an Italian component in it.

Have you aver been to Rome? Thousands of Indians (mostly Punjabis) selling things on street corners. Italians farms are manned by mostly Indians. We are not in a position to do what you say. There are thousands of manual laborers in gulf from South India. They are treated like dogs and are exploited in every way..............why don't we close our embassies there?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 15 Mar 2013 20:18

India downgrades ties

India is downgrading its diplomatic ties with Italy and has asked its Ambassador - designate to that country Basant Kumar Gupta, who was scheduled to leave for Rome on Friday, not to proceed to take up his posting.

The government which is reviewing the entire gamut of bilateral ties has decided to withhold posting of Gupta, who was expected to take charge by end of next week, after Italian government renegaded on its promise to send back two marines, facing trial for allegedly killing two Indian fishermen.

Accusing Italy of violating diplomatic norms and breaching assurance given to the Supreme Court, the highest court of the land, the sources said it was totally "unacceptable" and India was looking at downgrading its ties with that country to express its unhappiness.

"The decision of not sending Mr Gupta to assume his position is tantamount to the fact that India wants to keep diplomatic ties with Italy at a level lesser than the Ambassador," the sources said.

Gupta was named successor to Debabrata Saha, who retired in December last.

Meanwhile, all the exit points, including airports across the country have been alerted to prevent Italian Ambassador Daniele Mancini from leaving the country. The decision was taken by the Union Home Ministry a day after the Supreme Court restrained the Italian Ambassador from leaving India without its permission, official sources said.

{but the government later denied. So again no balls}

On Thursday, the government had also announced decision to initiate review of entire gamut of relations with Italy which includes diplomatic, trade and defence ties apart from reaching out to European Union, which was briefed on India's views and position in the matter.

Official spokesman in the Ministry of External Affairs said the "entire expanse of our interaction" with Italy was being reviewed while stressing that Italy has to "respect and abide" by the agreements between it and the Supreme Court.

The apex court also issued notices to Mancini and the two marines - Massimiliano Lattore and Salvatore Girone - and asked them to file their response by March 18 and posted the matter for further hearing next Monday.

The apex court issued notices after Attorney General G E Vahanvati brought the issue before it yesterday, saying that "it's a breach of undertaking given to the highest court of the land and the government is extremely concerned about it".

The stand-off between India and Italy was also discussed at a meeting chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh yesterday morning which was attended by External Affairs Minister Salman Khurshid and National Security Advisor Shiv Shankar Menon.

The marines were charged with killing two fishermen off the Kerala coast in February last year in an anti-piracy operation. They were permitted by the apex court on February 22 to go to Italy for four weeks for voting in election and directed to return within four weeks.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Mar 2013 20:27

rgsrini wrote:RajeshA,
I agree in part. India should not just target the Ambassador , without targetting the Italian government as a whole. However, the ambassador deserves some kind of punishment for being a willful pawn in the game. He was the jihadi (Kasab) who carried out the orders, while the plotters are the Italian government (like the terrorist scum Hafeez Sayeed) sitting far away. We should still punish the Kasab, while ultimately punishing the Italian government, commensurate with the orchestrated betrayal that they perpetrated on India.

Here are a couple of options. They may be slightly over the top, but will communicate our resolve to EU and the rest of the world in general.
Close down our embassies in Italy and ask them to wind up their embassies within India.
Ban any business dealings with Italy for the next few decades and disallow any foreign purchase that has an Italian component in it.

rgsrini ji,

what we have on our hands is an issue, a political issue. Italy has played its cards, done its deeds and has an extra Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card.

Now the only thing left is to squeeze as much political juice as one can out of it. I personally think that one can squeeze out so much juice that Ralph Maino would be seeking asylum in Italy with his Mama but without his balls.

All this stuff about detaining the Ambassador is circus being tried out by UPA and SC to save some face, but it is all hollow. The opposition should go to the next level and besiege the embassy and the consulates. Bring the anti-Italian mood in India to a red-hot feverish pitch, and then cash the cheque at the Hustings.

If the Opposition does not translate this incident into an anti-Familia mood, then I am not sure the Opposition really has it in them to win in 2014.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 15 Mar 2013 20:38

RajeshA wrote: The opposition should go to the next level and besiege the embassy and the consulates. Bring the anti-Italian mood in India to a red-hot feverish pitch, and then cash the cheque at the Hustings.

If the Opposition does not translate this incident into an anti-Familia mood, then I am not sure the Opposition really has it in them to win in 2014.

Kongis have opposition balls squashed into pulp in these two terms. Only NaMo pulversied Kongi balls and made them to drink it thrice . I dont trust this jatly fatly chaps.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 15 Mar 2013 21:47

rsingh wrote:There are thousands of manual laborers in gulf from South India. They are treated like dogs and are exploited in every way..............why don't we close our embassies there?

Saar,
I was talking about the repercussion for betraying an Indian institution, and Italy not keeping a soverign commitment to India. In this case, India has to respond and punish Italy to communicate that this is not an acceptable behavior.

What you are saying is treatment of Indians by individuals in foreign countries. I am not sure if India can get involved at a government level on those. I want India to do that, but not sure how it can be done. As India's profile increases, I think those mistreatment will stop, or Indians will stop going to those locations.

Regarding Indians in Rome, I am sure there may be repurcussions to Indians living in Italy. If there is, then there will be counter repercussions to Italians living in India as well. IMO, that should not be an excuse to allow Italy to literally get away with betrayal and murder.

I am not particular about closing down the embassies. We can drive out the entire embassy staff and declare them PNG. Reduce the number of visas and downgrade the relationship in general. Most importantly, we have to hurt them where it counts. Stopping all business dealings with Italy and chasing out their automotive business (and other ones) within India, for the next few decades is a good start.