Buddhism - Socio Political Contributions

[member_24042]

Dr. Jayaprakash says: a number of Buddha statues have been discovered at places like Ambalapuzha, Karunagapalli, Pallickal, Bharanikkavu, Mavelikara and Neelamperur in Kerala. ‘They are either in the form of smashed pieces or thrown away from viharas. Lord Ayyappa of Sabarimala and Lord Padmanabha at Thiruvananthapuram are the proxy images of Buddha being worshipped as Vishnu. Hundreds of Buddhists were killed on the banks of Aluva river. The term ‘Aluva’ was derived from ‘Alawai’ which means ‘Trisul’, a weapon used by Hindu fanatics to stab Buddhists. Similarly, on the banks of the Vaigai river in Tamilnadu, thousands of Buddhists were killed by the Vaishnava Saint, Sambanthar. Thevaram, a Tamil book, documents this brutal extermination of Buddhism.’

I will leave the Malayali parts to someone who knows better Malayali than me, but for the case of Thevaram, I went on to check what is there in the Thevaram of Sambandar. For starters, Sambandar was a Shaiva saint (tradition claims that he was breast fed by the Goddess Parvati), one of the sixty four Nayanars, not a Vaishnava, but let us ignore that initial faux pas of your hero. All I could find was his adventures with the Pandyan King and his Jain courtiers. There is only one mention of Buddhists in the Thevaram of Sambandar - he defeated a bunch of Buddhist theologians in argument and they converted to Shaivism after their defeat. That is all. No river Vaigal, no butchery of the Buddhists. Maybe I am missing something here, but can you post the accurate reference to the Thevaram?

The same Shaiva Sambandar who encouraged the king to impale thousands of defenceless Jaina monks, while subsequent generations of Hindus glorify this "noble" acheivement, (look at the carvings on Meenakshipuram).

[member_24042]

[quote="nageshks"]
Dude - do you know how they crushed Christianity? And is it a template you advocate that people use against religions you dislike? When you look up what Kato Kiyomasa did and the practices of fumi-i, I will be happy to debate this with you.
[quote]

Funny how you protect the same barbaric Portugese who did the Goa Inquisition. Infact there is a statue to Francis of Assisi in Japan. Do you honestly think the Japanese did not know the fate that befall Central and South America? Look at some of the critiques of Christianity during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Its not that these Portugese just wanted to sing songs, hold hands, and have a mela? Hell I am not going to do your homework for you but if you think the Christians were in Japan for purely innocent reasons, I suggest you do a bit more research.

Interesting that in a Hindu nationalist forum like this, the Hindus would rather take the sides of Christians (which by all accounts are a big threat to your religion) over the Buddhists (do you even know the high opinion of India held by many Buddhist SE Asians?).

[member_24042]

Tony Soprano ji,
Haven't been visiting this thread. Thanks for bringing Verardi into this. We can get to his output in a while.

But before all that, some humble questions :
(1) If you are bringing Verardi in, are you conversant with the archeological evidence he claims supports his thesis?

(2) are you able to read "original sources" he "paraphrases" in his own sweet interpretations? Like Xuan Xang?

(3) Are you aware of the advent of tantra within Gangetic valley Buddhism? And the factional infighting that is evident among the Budhhists of the "north" as well as the south - including yes, from that period's Kerala? Would you be familiar with the sources that discuss "heretics" bashing from such sources?

Just a hint - are you aware of something called "eating the heart of the Brahmana"?

There are two ways forward, you can think about whether this polemical battle is at all necessary, given the obvious recognition of ground realities and common enemies that you acknowledge. Either you still choose to further this debate, which will not be nice for the images of people like Prof Verardi and his methods or "agenda" [something he accuses others freely of, but on rare occasions, his own does come out too - if we apply his own methods characterizing "agendas"] - or we skip this bit, and think of building commonalities and bridges.

I am game to discuss his works. But it will force me to discuss aspects of buddhist linen that you would rather not want washed in such public debate.

I actually bought Verardi's book and will look through the contents later today before giving a fitting reply. Interesting you mentioned a Tibetan tantric ritual. Do you know the grotesque rituals performed by Hindu Aghoris? I think that is a cheap shot.

BTW have you heard of the Ashwamedha Yagna and the rituals involved in it? Have you seen how Aghoris eat from a skull (guess what, also of Brahmin).

And do you honestly think the Hinduism which is much older than Buddhism and not even a unified religion (many contradictory religions/cults exist in "Hinduism") has less dirty laundry than Buddhism?

[Shanmukh]

I will leave the Malayali parts to someone who knows better Malayali than me, but for the case of Thevaram, I went on to check what is there in the Thevaram of Sambandar. For starters, Sambandar was a Shaiva saint (tradition claims that he was breast fed by the Goddess Parvati), one of the sixty four Nayanars, not a Vaishnava, but let us ignore that initial faux pas of your hero. All I could find was his adventures with the Pandyan King and his Jain courtiers. There is only one mention of Buddhists in the Thevaram of Sambandar - he defeated a bunch of Buddhist theologians in argument and they converted to Shaivism after their defeat. That is all. No river Vaigal, no butchery of the Buddhists. Maybe I am missing something here, but can you post the accurate reference to the Thevaram?

The same Shaiva Sambandar who encouraged the king to impale thousands of defenceless Jaina monks, while subsequent generations of Hindus glorify this "noble" acheivement, (look at the carvings on Meenakshipuram).

We can discuss the Jains elsewhere - this is the Buddhist thread. And the frescos in the Meenakshi temple in Madurai (not Meenakshipuram) were created a millenium later. A proof of the slaughter of the Buddhists (which you claimed exists in the Thevaram of Sambandar) would be welcome. You jump from claim to claim, with not an ounce of evidence for anything.

[brihaspati]

Earliest buildings in Ayodhya are Jaina and in Mathura they are Buddhist. It is interesting to note that all of the Hindu temples in these towns (including the ones subsequently destroyed by Turkic invaders) were built on the remains of Buddhist viharas or Jain derasars. Sound familiar no? Do you now think the Hindus should still make a big fuss over Ram mandir when the fact is modern humans hadn't even evolved 1.7 million years ago: more like 150,000 years ago.

Have you really gone through the citation chain of so-called archeologists by which this identification with "jaina" and "Buddhist" architecture has been made? In most cases they were assumptions based on very dubious identifications which in turn were drawn from supposed similarities with other places which had similarly been identified from legend/narrative claims/ etc etc.

Bring up the Mathura case [forget the Ayodhya case - that is even more murky] from sources, and I can help you navigate through the fantasy. Problem is that for most of the more famous sites, people like you do not look up the original start of the archeology-excused mythology that was created in the first place - which then gets quoted over and over again ad nauseam. Sometimes there are attempts at corrections, but usually the historical myth that is created persists in those more removed from the retesting/reinvestigation processes.

If you think that building over previous religious sites by a "new" religion, is always about destruction and violent removal of the older - then something very interesting should be yours too for consideration. The Vedic and the upanishadic texts usually emphasize sacred nature and geography, but do not emphasize solid building constructions and "templeification" of sacred geography.

But this does not mean that the pre-Buddhist Bharatyas did not have a concept of pilgrimages to fixed sacred spots - and in fact textual indications are that they did undertake so with a definite concept of fixed sacred locations and geographical features.

Now if every "new" religion tries to take over "older sites" - is it not then natural for Buddhists to start building over pre-Buddhist holy spots? This would be not necessarily violent - but violence can then also not be ruled out. If non-violent - then it would reasonably come out of two factors - a cold tactical calculation by the new proselytizers that the people would still remain attached to the previous spots and that they would continue to come over from deep social memories of veneration, and it would be easier on the new converts for some generations at least - to be able to secretly satisfy their concscience until the older had been erased from society completely.

The second would be the monetary considerations of pilgrimages, and to tap into pilgrim contributions - together with the very psychological warfare aspect of removing the presence of the older system away from public site by building over them.

In the case of pre-Buddhist sites, it would be easier for the early Buddhists - mostly elite big sarthavaha owners involved in long-distance and foreign trade with their huge merchant capital and patronage of the kings and emperors who were of course promoting Buddhist construction spree from taxation money extracted from the still-non-Buddhist praja - to build upon pre-Buddhist sacred geography, since the previous culture did not attach great importance to building on those spots.

Is it possible that the early Buddhists with merchant capital and royal patronage - were actually deliberately putting up such a sudden flareup of construction to simply cover up pre-Buddhist sites and places of congregation, and make them inaccessible to the non-Buddhist public?

In that case, the later rebuilding on these Buddhist sites could simply be a matter of reclaiming - but now, having seen the tactics and effectiveness of Buddhist religious building strategies, they would reclaim by putting up their own structures?

I am not suggesting this merely to torment you. There are materials to support my thesis. But lets start with your Mathura example - can we? So please layout the source archeological myth-formation - please!

[brihaspati]

I actually bought Verardi's book and will look through the contents later today before giving a fitting reply. Interesting you mentioned a Tibetan tantric ritual. Do you know the grotesque rituals performed by Hindu Aghoris? I think that is a cheap shot.

BTW have you heard of the Ashwamedha Yagna and the rituals involved in it? Have you seen how Aghoris eat from a skull (guess what, also of Brahmin).

And do you honestly think the Hinduism which is much older than Buddhism and not even a unified religion (many contradictory religions/cults exist in "Hinduism") has less dirty laundry than Buddhism?

Why this keenness on "giving a fitting reply"? Doesn't your version of Buddhism teach calm contemplation to arrive at the "truth"?

You think the reference I drew is "Tibetan"? There are many many more, and no - they are not Tibetan in origin. Then again, another interesting aspect is - if you are really aware of such stuff within what goes for Buddhism, why did you not acknowledge them when you were lambasting the "Hindu"? Is it an example of Buddhist honesty and integrity?

By the way, no the drinking from the skull bit - you cannot really drink from the defleshed skull. It simply has too many holes. It is a symbolic ritual and not any real drinking. Moreover, no - it does not have to be from a "Brahmin".

Hinduism's dirty laundry is so much open under the open sky, that it has been bleached clear - unlike the situation most likely to evolve in the deep moist darknesses of the sangha. Maybe you have not come across the archeological evidence of coin hoards and money minting facilities within "sanghas"? Thats just for a very innocent starter.

[Shanmukh]

Funny how you protect the same barbaric Portugese who did the Goa Inquisition. Infact there is a statue to Francis of Assisi in Japan. Do you honestly think the Japanese did not know the fate that befall Central and South America? Look at some of the critiques of Christianity during the Tokugawa Shogunate. Its not that these Portugese just wanted to sing songs, hold hands, and have a mela? Hell I am not going to do your homework for you but if you think the Christians were in Japan for purely innocent reasons, I suggest you do a bit more research.

Interesting that in a Hindu nationalist forum like this, the Hindus would rather take the sides of Christians (which by all accounts are a big threat to your religion) over the Buddhists (do you even know the high opinion of India held by many Buddhist SE Asians?).

Protecting the Portuguese? Dude - do you even know whom the Japanese butchered? No, it was not the Portuguese - they were expelled (replaced by the Dutch). It was other Japanese - Japanese Christians - who were butchered by the Tokugawa Shogunate (those who did not convert back anyway). And can you please produce proofs that the Japanese knew what was happening to the Incas and the Aztecs in the mid seventeenth century? Note- I am not asking you for post facto rationalisations that arose in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. I am asking you for proofs that the Japanese knew what was happening in Central and South America at the time of the massacres of the Christians in Japan.

And saying Christians should not be butchered is the same as protecting the atrocities of the Christians and the Inquisitions? I must now ask you if you seriously contemplate butchery of Christians as a means to stop them. If you think that, then I will frankly say I wish to have no part of any Buddhism that preaches this kind of hatred for any religion. It is obviously toxic.

PS: Wrt Japanese evidence, if you have a pointer to the Japanese originals, that will be ideal. But if not, post any English evidence you can get.

[brihaspati]

TonySoprano ji,
There was a reason I used that exact phrase about heart-eating and not how it typically appears within sects of Buddhism. This was merely to see how you arrive at your informations. That you came up with Tibetan buddhism - tells me something about your state of acquaintance with Buddhist core narratives and sources over its claimed history. It is mostly recent, mostly in translation by western scholars, and partly modern retelling of narratives and interpretation for propaganda.

If you really want to understand what might really have happened, you have to go to the sources, if possible read them in the original and different versions, to see how cultural discrepancies and linguistic differences might have transformed texts in translations - even 1200 years ago.

[brihaspati]

TonySoprano ji,

you still have not replied to my posts on the Buddhist elite's secret collaboration with Islamist forces - as cited in the Nirun township's merchant oligarch Buddhists in context with Qasims first and Islamist/caliphates 4thor 5th attack on Sindh. I also cited the narrative claim of these "Buddhist" sramans living in luxury with "slaves" and fine houses, and going out with Qasim's agents to convince other townships whose residents refused to submit to the muslims. In this case the only extant source is Chachnama.

If you say the Buddhists were falsely implicated by the islamist narrator and that they were real resistors - then why should Buddhists be shown in such sympathetic-towards-Muslims terms? Would it not be failing the needs of the islamists to make Muslim aware of the threat and danger from Buddhists?

[member_22872]

Bring back Lord Buddha’s begging bowl: RJD MP

AgniMitra ji, not sure if you can read Arabic(?), if you can, could you please translate or attempt at translating what is inscribed on the bowl?

Tony ji, so much for your Hindu hate, see what they have done.

[Shanmukh]

TonySoprano ji,

you still have not replied to my posts on the Buddhist elite's secret collaboration with Islamist forces - as cited in the Nirun township's merchant oligarch Buddhists in context with Qasims first and Islamist/caliphates 4thor 5th attack on Sindh. I also cited the narrative claim of these "Buddhist" sramans living in luxury with "slaves" and fine houses, and going out with Qasim's agents to convince other townships whose residents refused to submit to the muslims. In this case the only extant source is Chachnama.

If you say the Buddhists were falsely implicated by the islamist narrator and that they were real resistors - then why should Buddhists be shown in such sympathetic-towards-Muslims terms? Would it not be failing the needs of the islamists to make Muslim aware of the threat and danger from Buddhists?

B-ji,
I am trying to pick your brain here. Would be grateful to you for an answer. Have you seen any example of a Buddhist revolt or resistance against Islamic rulers in any country, AFTER it had been taken over by Islam? Whether it was the Zoroastrian Persian empire, Central Asia, Afghanistan-Baluchistan, India proper, or Southeast Asian states, Buddhism seems to have gone down very tamely, once the countries had been occupied. Would be grateful to you for any source material on the subject, if there is any.

[harbans]

The Dharmic strands of thought are like strands on a rope. Individual strands can be cut easily, but when all these strands are together cutting it is not easy or nigh impossible. We have to achieve that, even though the strands may be outwardly differently colored. MOre important than any agenda is the Dharmic consolidation agenda. That agenda requires us to consolidate and co-opt Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan and even Myanmar in our immediate sphere. The sword of Islamism, Maoism that is trying to cut the strands of Buddhism, Sanatan Dharma, Jainism, Sikhism whatever..can only be countered by a unified Dharmic approach. Silly games of one upmanship will only weaken the Dharmic cause at the expense of Islamism and Maoism which we all should be fighting together.

[Agnimitra]

Bring back Lord Buddha’s begging bowl: RJD MP

AgniMitra ji, not sure if you can read Arabic(?), if you can, could you please translate or attempt at translating what is inscribed on the bowl?

venug ji, I don't know Arabic.

[Shanmukh]

The Dharmic strands of thought are like strands on a rope. Individual strands can be cut easily, but when all these strands are together cutting it is not easy or nigh impossible. We have to achieve that, even though the strands may be outwardly differently colored. MOre important than any agenda is the Dharmic consolidation agenda. That agenda requires us to consolidate and co-opt Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan and even Myanmar in our immediate sphere. The sword of Islamism, Maoism that is trying to cut the strands of Buddhism, Sanatan Dharma, Jainism, Sikhism whatever..can only be countered by a unified Dharmic approach. Silly games of one upmanship will only weaken the Dharmic cause at the expense of Islamism and Maoism which we all should be fighting together.

Harbans-ji,
It is precisely due to the larger goal of Dharmic consolidation that I have refrained from going on the offensive against Buddhism, even after Tony has posted innumerable attacks based on outright falsehoods or dubious information against Hinduism. All I have done is refute Tony Soprano's attacks on Hinduism, posting not a word against Buddhism. In fact, it is very easy to paint a horrendously brutal picture of the Buddhists, particularly with regard to the Islamic conquests, not just in India, but also in south east Asia, central Asia, and most importantly, the old Persian empire. However, given Tony's vituperative hatred of Hinduism in general, and Brahmins in particular, I see no way to resolve the situation amicably. The only thing Tony's brand of Buddhism wants is for us to confess to non-existent atrocities on Buddhists, and admit (without a shred of evidence) that we are all a bunch of racist proto-Nazis, who enslaved the native Indians (the exact distinguishing characteristics of this group eludes me) based on racist considerations. Do you find this demand of his reasonable?

[harbans]

Nagesh Ji, i completely agree with your take. There is a lot of pressure on some who follow the Dharmic strand called Buddhism, particularly by Westerners to differentiate, blame and more. A large number of Buddhist canon were ironically developed by Brahmins/ Hindu's themselves. In those days there was no Hinduism per se. People generally agreed to be Dharmic. The real 'battles' took place amongst scholars. Almost zero living memory recalls any bloody battles between different sampradaya's or Dharmic strands. And any so called persecution might not have had a religious undertone. If we Dharmics were intolerant we would have had crusades between Shiv Bhakts and Vaishnavs or Buddhists or Vaishnva vs Sikh or Advaiti's vs Dvait or whatever combination. That never happened. The larger Sanatana Dharmic pool has largely been one massive tolerant inertial pool. Many people tend to overlook this and try and attempt to see it from the prism of Christian and Islamic historians. Even in the ancient universities there were scholars of different schools of philosophical thought and they pretty much existed seamlessly. Even to day many Jains call themselves Hindu's, though many have started differentiating. When the census starting demanding people classify themselves a 150 years ago, even some Malabari muslims were hesitant calling themselves Muslim.

HH The Dalai Lama for example has always maintained India is the mother. Many Japanese, Chinese, Korean Buddhists in very personal moments have told me that what they have has come from India. In Indonesia i met Muslims who have Ganesh in their houses, one even told me they are muslim in name, culturally they are Hindu. For India we have to reestablish our allegiance to Dharma and lead. We have stopped leading as we don;t have a direction. We feel no kinship to the plight of Tibetans. It is hard for our Govt to give refuge to Dharmics and Sikhs escaping persecution in Pakistan. Actually our first steps to a Sanatana Dharmic Rashtra has to be consolidating the different Dharmic strands in some kind of constitutional pluralist and liberal kind of framework. That will gradually make people proud of their Dharmic heritage and each respectful of the others too. That will help enhance a bond between fellow Dharmic states from Tibet to Thailand, Korea and Japan.

Today we disassociate ourselves from the World Buddhist Council on a very historic occasion because China gets hurt. Remember the PM and others did not attend it, because HH was there on the occasion of Buddha's 2 millenia birthday. We feel shy of our heritage and past influence. We have now stopped owning it, so others are stooping to take a piece here and there. Look at the attempts to appropriate Yoga being made. It should make any Dharmic puke. We are allowing Nepal to become a major bastion of Islamism and Maoism. We are weaning Bhutan to Maoists. We are allowing Maoists to dictate the Buddhist agenda and appropriate it's holiest spots. Forget even that, we have allowed the Maoists to appropriate the Holiest of Holy spots of ours, Kailash and Mansarover. The shame is that it is Bharat that is falling this low. This low cannot be sustained and must not be. Our best bet lies in reestablishing the consolidation process.

[member_24042]

Misconceptions of Caste System

Caste system was not established in the Indian subcontinent as it is a norm in these modern times. In Buddha's time, the perception of "Brahmins" was simply as a white skinned Caucasians living in the North west. The people/kings who are recognized as Kshatriyas in Buddhist literature are recognized as Shudras in Brahmanic literature. Notable examples are Nandas, Mauryas (even Ashoka), Guptas etc. This proves that Brahmanic caste system was not established as an essential definition of identity for every individual. When Buddha says "Khattiya", he simply refers to the royalty. But when the Brahmins say "Kshatriya" it refers to a special tribe of the Indo-Aryans. No other race could be "Kshatriyas" if they are not Indo-Aryans. That is why the Mauryans, Mallas, Palas, Guptas etc are not "Kshatriyas" according to Brahmins even though they are rulers. This is just like how both the Jains and Buddhists use the term "Arhat" for their founders, but the meaning is different. Buddha's definition of "Brahmin" is different from the deifnition by Brahmins themselves. Buddha lays down the definition in Sonanadata Sutta and many other Suttas in which Buddha had conversation with Brahmins of western India (who had not yet reached the whole of India, and that is why "caste system" was not an established fact for India). You can find Chinese literature in which Chinese scholars are referred to as Brahmins, but this is laughable for any real Brahmin of India because this is only by race/lineage.

[Lilo]

Soprano ji,
Have you ever been to South India ?

You speak about skin color and caste as if the whole of South India and East India don't exist . How come ?

[member_24042]

TonySoprano ji,

you still have not replied to my posts on the Buddhist elite's secret collaboration with Islamist forces - as cited in the Nirun township's merchant oligarch Buddhists in context with Qasims first and Islamist/caliphates 4thor 5th attack on Sindh. I also cited the narrative claim of these "Buddhist" sramans living in luxury with "slaves" and fine houses, and going out with Qasim's agents to convince other townships whose residents refused to submit to the muslims. In this case the only extant source is Chachnama.

If you say the Buddhists were falsely implicated by the islamist narrator and that they were real resistors - then why should Buddhists be shown in such sympathetic-towards-Muslims terms? Would it not be failing the needs of the islamists to make Muslim aware of the threat and danger from Buddhists?

You tarnish a whole religion due to one incident? Do you know that the Hindu Dahir persecuted the Buddhist and the Caucasoid Jats? Due to this of course the Buddhists would welcome the invaders, for they probably thought the would convert them to the true Dhamma (like the Greeks, Kushans, etc). It must be noted that Qasim and his father renovated the Buddhist monastery in Damascus, Syria so the Sangha of Sindh must be familiar with this development.

[member_24042]

Soprano ji,
Have you ever been to South India ?

You speak about skin color and caste as if the whole of South India and East India don't exist . How come ?

I have lived and traveled all over India (even in Port Blair). In South India its pretty obvious to tell a Brahmin as they are distinctly Caucasoid. For example look at Jayalalita and Subramanian Swamy (Iyengar and Iyer). Now look at a typical South Indian (Australoid):

[member_22872]

No, he won't listen, nor can hear. Very similar to Blinkered horse. Now cola of Hindu hate and Brahmin hate have intoxicated him. Let him enjoy till that lasts. He thinks he is a Buddhist.

[harbans]

For all the bilge being spilled on Brahmins..

Many of the best-known Buddhists were Brahmins. They include Vasubandhu and his key disciples Sariputra and Mahakasyapa (founders of Mahayana Buddhism); Nagarjuna[1] and Asvaghosa,[2] the reformer of Theravada Buddhism; Buddhaghosa (founder of Vajrayana Buddhism; Padmasambhava, founder of Tibetan Buddhism; Shantideva, author of The Way of the Bodhisattva; Bodhidharma, founder of Zen Buddhism and Kung Fu and Kumarajiva, both of whom brought Buddhism to China and beyond; Nagasena, the debater of Milinda Panha; Manjushri, mentor of Ashoka and Radhaswamy, the person who brought Ashoka to Buddhism, and scholars of Nalanda such as Aryadeva and Shantarakshita, who taught Buddhism and new doctrines.

People born in Brahmin families feature extensively in Buddhist Tripitakas, and are found among the Buddha's chief disciples. The Brahmana Varga (section on Brahmins) in the Dhammapada lists the Buddha's views on Brahmins.[3] Peter Masefield writes, "The canonical texts show the early Buddhists seeking their sustenance mostly from brahmin families, and the dhamma-cakkhu (the insight into the Four Truths) that led to liberation was given almost exclusively to men of brahmin descent."[4] Gurmukh Ram Madan states, "Also brahmans appear to have been taken up; but they were the distinguished representatives of a cultured laity - a secular strata of nobles who formed the majority of Buddha's disciples".[5]

A Buddhist layman, Jayadeva of Bihar, was imprisoned when the Odantapuri Buddhist learning centre was attacked; he advised a group of monks in Nalanda of the Muslim threat, and helped them flee to safety. Scholar Asim Chatterjee adds, "No one can deny that the Brahmin pupils of Gautama had save the Sangha in its hour of peril. The rebellion of Devadatta was foiled by Sariputta, and after the demise of the teacher, Mahakassapa, by convening the first council, at Rajagrha, practically rescued the entire Buddhist Sangha from sinking into oblivion".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhists_ ... n_families

More points of interest here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin

[member_22872]

how do you that kid is not a Brahmin kid? what is your point anyway? I know scores of Brahmins who are darker than any complex you can think off, so what is your point?

[harbans]

+ 1 Venu g..i know many Brahmins in North India with darker skins than South Indian Shudras..How does one explain that

[member_22872]

I think he is using the metrics of Hitler with all the measurements of ear lobes and nose widths and also a color spectrum to classify Indians. Talk about racism he wants to fight against.

[devesh]

OK this moron really needs some common sense. Tony bhai, if me and you stood next to each other. I am confident my complexion would be darker than yours. and I belong to that group that you despise so much. and once we confirm our complexions, I insist that I must now have a great right to hate you.

come to Andhra. why whole of that region, in my own family, I will show you a mix of all shades from very light skinned to very dark. I stand somewhere in between more towards the darker side.

you really have no clue what you are talking about. you know nothing about Bharat. and even less about its people and how they live.

[member_24042]

No, he won't listen, nor can hear. Very similar to Blinkered horse. Now cola of Hindu hate and Brahmin hate have intoxicated him. Let him enjoy till that lasts. He thinks he is a Buddhist.

Where have I said I hate Brahmins or Hindus? I do not at all even though I disagree with Brahmanism. Though i wish all of India (all world infact) becomes Buddhist, I much rather see it as Hindu than Christian or Islamic. I have been presenting sources from eminent historians and trained scholars, its all verifiable. But if you wish I will leave this forum.

[member_22872]

One need not say it explicitly. How can you not see what you writing. Just calm down a bit, if truth is on your side, we will all learn from it. If by chance truth is on our side you too will get a different perspective. If you have hate you will fail to see the point. So just calm down a bit and leave the passion, passion will make you assert your ego. Please state your points with proof and ask for the same.

One way or another each one will learn from the other. Even if I disagree with you, I am learning from you. So don't feel bad when some one counters you. Many here revere Buddhism.

[Lilo]

I have been presenting sources from eminent historians and trained scholars, its all verifiable. But if you wish I will leave this forum.

Soprano ji,
There a total absence of emic viewpoint in your analysis. If you want to speak about "nature" of Hinduism through its tranformative phases , why don't you also quote from emic scholars born , brought up and believing the ideals of Sanatana dharma. Don't you expect such a viewpoint to be present when some one wants to talk about Buddhism ?

Standing on one legged Western props to repeat their carefully cultivated biases is a bit too much for a believer in Dhamma isn't it ?

[Abhi_G]

Where is the 'fair and lovely" history coming from?
Bangalore, Kerala?
IB4TL

[brihaspati]

TonySoprano ji,

you still have not replied to my posts on the Buddhist elite's secret collaboration with Islamist forces - as cited in the Nirun township's merchant oligarch Buddhists in context with Qasims first and Islamist/caliphates 4thor 5th attack on Sindh. I also cited the narrative claim of these "Buddhist" sramans living in luxury with "slaves" and fine houses, and going out with Qasim's agents to convince other townships whose residents refused to submit to the muslims. In this case the only extant source is Chachnama.

If you say the Buddhists were falsely implicated by the islamist narrator and that they were real resistors - then why should Buddhists be shown in such sympathetic-towards-Muslims terms? Would it not be failing the needs of the islamists to make Muslim aware of the threat and danger from Buddhists?

You tarnish a whole religion due to one incident? Do you know that the Hindu Dahir persecuted the Buddhist and the Caucasoid Jats? Due to this of course the Buddhists would welcome the invaders, for they probably thought the would convert them to the true Dhamma (like the Greeks, Kushans, etc). It must be noted that Qasim and his father renovated the Buddhist monastery in Damascus, Syria so the Sangha of Sindh must be familiar with this development.

Your source is the same as mine - Chachnama [or Mirja Kalich Beg's version of it]. Can you point out where this narrative claims that Dahir "persecuted' "Buddhists"? There is a well known chapter on Chach's meeting with the chief sraman - can you read through how the meeting goes, and what - if any is the consequence on the sangha? Where does this narrative claim "Jats" as "Caucasoid" and where does it say that Dahir persecuted Jats [persecuting as a distinct identity only because of their identity]? Do you have any indication in the narrative that the "Buddhists" of Sindh thought they would be able to "convert" the Caliphate piglets? Please quote so if you have found the ref.

I think you are conveniently ignoring the history of serial attacks from the Caliphate side and the specific context by which Nirunists went to meet Hajjaj offering their support.

By the way - this is not the onlee instance of collaboration and capitulation. I just mentioned one - because this ref would be easily accessible for you.

Also can you mention here the various sects and trends within "Buddhism" in that zone - from Sindh to Gandhara - in the first half of Christian first millenium, and if you are aware of the confrontations that took place between them? Any political and military consequences of these confrontations - and their impact on local and regional state formation or destruction processes - if you are aware?

Do you really know about the source reference to the supposed "repairing" of the supposed Buddhist monastery in Syria - by Qasim's "father"? Can you please quote from where you have read this from? Do you also have your Islamic history right - I mean the Ummayad and Abbasid trajectories and where they might have tolerated which version of which claimed religion in what context?

[Shanmukh]

By the way - this is not the onlee instance of collaboration and capitulation. I just mentioned one - because this ref would be easily accessible for you.

+1. No, indeed, it is not the only one. And it is not only in India that the Buddhists capitulated.

Tony - I have refrained from going into detail about this matter, because of the respect I have for Buddhism. You are trying to build an overarching theory based on events from different centuries. All it will give you is a conspiracy theory. Occam's razor suggests simpler explanations.

[member_23700]

Why would Rama wash the feet of Shabari?

Where do you get your information from? Amar Chitra Katha? Ramanand Sagar?

TS,

Enlighten us with your version of the story and the reference, please.

Also, on another point.....your presence helping me learn a lot, and I mean a lot, from Rishis and Jnanis, Shramana and Bhikkus of this thread. Thank you.

[brihaspati]

B-ji,
I am trying to pick your brain here. Would be grateful to you for an answer. Have you seen any example of a Buddhist revolt or resistance against Islamic rulers in any country, AFTER it had been taken over by Islam? Whether it was the Zoroastrian Persian empire, Central Asia, Afghanistan-Baluchistan, India proper, or Southeast Asian states, Buddhism seems to have gone down very tamely, once the countries had been occupied. Would be grateful to you for any source material on the subject, if there is any.

Not "AFTER". In the transition period to the "AFTER" there are a few instances. But interestingly, all these instances that I am aware of - come not from the so-called purist "nikaya" traditions. These would be the more heterodox [as per purist critique] and "heretical" [again by purists views] sects and movements that were developing within post Asokan Buddhism. The confrontations were often violent, very political and very military on several occasions.

Buddhist violence was often unleashed on rival sects and their installations. Tony Soprano ji - in his cherry picking of Buddhist history should get along first perhaps with the three better-known texts beginning with Ashokavaadan and ending with Taranath. [I will leave him to guess the middle! ]
All three points to organized violence - directed at rivals "within".

These two aspects : the later internal opposition and rebellions against older - regime, king-merchant alliance Buddhist establishments with extensive and expensive-to-construct buildings and elaborate systems needing substantial resources from the state - with adaptations and perhaps alliances/merges/influences from non-Buddhist parallel "Hindu" trends, especially "folk-Hinduism".

The second aspect is the strand of violent destruction of the "heretical" - from ideological to the physical - that remained from the earliest phases.

These are almost always ignored or suppressed in the sympathetic treatment of Buddhist claims of history. I think this suppression is necessary to prevent problematization of claims of pre-Islamic "destructions" of Buddhist establishments as "Hindu" initiated. The Christian critique of Buddhism also ignores this out of obvious reasons - because of uncanny attitudinal similarities and similar evolutions over the ages, which if critiqued would be also self-criticism. The "liberating" theologies all have one attitude in common - they never make any errors or mistakes - at least nothing like that can ever be acknowledged. Hence the immense intolerance of criticism.

I will wait for Tony Soprano ji - if he can bring himself up to citing these instances - to start with - in the very geographical region he tries to justify Buddhist "collaboration" with Islamists - the western parts of "greater" India.

[member_20317]

Tony ji, I believe you lied about your roots in Uttarakhand.

Uttaranchal has simply too many cases of clans having so many different morphological phenotypes that its crazy. And these are not aligned to caste or varna or jaati lines.

My maternal side has people who look more caucasoid then the reals ones. My paternal side has people who look like tibeto-burman when the majority is like the standard UP ka bhaiya. I personally have been called - nepali, madrasi, baniya, oriya and bengali. Fortunately for me, the majority in the country does not really worry for having me classified.

Anybody from Uttaranchal should carry at least the amount of common sense that is needed to recognize the variety in his own roots. How can an average of all the available morphologies, be unaware of the existence of the averages.

[member_23700]

I am convinced that TS ji is learning from SADRE crowd here to come out as erudite on Eurasian closed loop thread of Wit-mer gang.

Ravi_g, I have been to the place TS ji belongs to, many times, and it is nto Uttarakhand.

In any case, I am learning tons from these interactions. Likes of KLPD Ji, ManishH (from OIT) and Peter (archeoastronomy) threads come to mind. They do have a role to play in big scheme of things.

[member_24042]

Tony ji, I believe you lied about your roots in Uttarakhand.

Uttaranchal has simply too many cases of clans having so many different morphological phenotypes that its crazy. And these are not aligned to caste or varna or jaati lines.

My maternal side has people who look more caucasoid then the reals ones. My paternal side has people who look like tibeto-burman when the majority is like the standard UP ka bhaiya. I personally have been called - nepali, madrasi, baniya, oriya and bengali. Fortunately for me, the majority in the country does not really worry for having me classified.

Anybody from Uttaranchal should carry at least the amount of common sense that is needed to recognize the variety in his own roots. How can an average of all the available morphologies, be unaware of the existence of the averages.

Why the hell would I lie about my place of origin? The Australoid substratum unites all Indians and I do have Caucasoid blood in me too but I am proudly non-Aryan as I am proud of my Australoid roots. Now do you want my birth certificate too?

PS yes I am a Kumaoni unlike the Aryan Garhwalis.

[Agnimitra]

Why the hell would I lie about my place of origin? The Australoid substratum unites all Indians and I do have Caucasoid blood in me too but I am proudly non-Aryan as I am proud of my Australoid roots. Now do you want my birth certificate too?

PS yes I am a Kumaoni unlike the Aryan Garhwalis.

TS ji, you have't yet explained why, as a Kumaoni "Australoid" you chose to subscribe to the "Caucasoid" apartheid system of the "Arya Ashtanga Marga" of the racist Lord Buddha. OR alternatively, why "Arya" used by The Buddha is "noble", but used by the Upanishads or Vedas is about a "Caucasoid" race of some mysterious origin.

You're previous "explanation" that the Buddha used "Arya" only to woo the Indo-apartheid regime sounded ridiculous. Please check with your mentors and let me know if they can dig deeper and come up with harder crocks of Marxist turd as explanation.

[Shanmukh]

The Australoid substratum unites all Indians and I do have Caucasoid blood in me too but I am proudly non-Aryan as I am proud of my Australoid roots. Now do you want my birth certificate too?

PS yes I am a Kumaoni unlike the Aryan Garhwalis.

Tony, are you perchance acquainted with the writings of Alfred Rosenberg? If not, I strongly recommend you study his works. You will find many interesting and instructive things there.....

By the way, I have noticed that you have not replied to any of my questions from a long time. Would be grateful if you could provide the references I have sought.

[Shanmukh]

TS ji, you have't yet explained why, as a Kumaoni "Australoid" you chose to subscribe to the "Caucasoid" apartheid system of the "Arya Ashtanga Marga" of the racist Lord Buddha. OR alternatively, why "Arya" used by The Buddha is "noble", but used by the Upanishads or Vedas is about a "Caucasoid" race of some mysterious origin.

You're previous "explanation" that the Buddha used "Arya" only to woo the Indo-apartheid regime sounded ridiculous. Please check with your mentors and let me know if they can dig deeper and come up with harder crocks of Marxist turd as explanation.

Actually, if we accept Tony's explanation about Arya being a reference to Caucasoids, both Nagarjuna and Ashwaghosha will become first rate racists. Ashwaghosha is all in raptures about the virtues of the Aryans in Saundarananda. He has not spoken a word about the virtues of the Australoids. Nagarjuna also addresses most of his (spiritual) predecessors with the label `Arya'. Did he not know how much of a swastika wielding, sieg-heiling jack booted Nazi it made him?

[member_24042]

By the way, I have noticed that you have not replied to any of my questions from a long time. Would be grateful if you could provide the references I have sought.

Buddhism is powerless with the loss of a centralized state, however Hinduism promotes feudalism and decentralization so large centralized states are anathema to Hinduism. This feudal system coupled with Brahminism proved fatal for India it was quickly overrun by the Turks.