Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion - June'14

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 04 Aug 2014 06:37

nileshjr wrote:
Dhananjay wrote:
Karan is Mk. 2 Astra a Ramjet like meteor?
Meteor is a Ducted Ramjet system and not just a vanilla ramjet. Solid motor to Ducted ramjet is quite a jump. Do we have indigenous ducted ramjet rocket technology, incorporated in some other missile, or perhaps any known tech demo program??

Meteor is a throttled solid propellant Ramjet. From what I know of it there are only 2 active production teams producing solid throttled Ramjet systems, one in Europe producing for the Meteor missile program and the other is aerojet that produced the first solid fueled throttled ramjet in the world with the GQM-163 Missile target. The current devision of the company is producing the AerGen-MkI system for a Classified Triple Target terminator program to test out the next generation air to air and air to ground dual missile

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 04 Aug 2014 07:37

brar_w wrote: Meteor is a throttled solid propellant Ramjet. From what I know of it there are only 2 active production teams producing solid throttled Ramjet systems, one in Europe producing for the Meteor missile program and the other is aerojet that produced the first solid fueled throttled ramjet in the world with the GQM-163 Missile target. The current devision of the company is producing the AerGen-MkI system for a Classified Triple Target terminator program to test out the next generation air to air and air to ground dual missile

Thanks for the info. BTW ducted rocket = throttled solid propellant Ramjet.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 04 Aug 2014 11:07

Rs 30,000 cr Indo-French missile development plan in troubled waters
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/rs ... 52236.html

An Indo-French proposed joint venture expected to be worth around Rs 30,000 crore to develop short range air defence missiles seems to have run into rough weather as Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.

The proposed joint venture is planned between DRDO and the French missile manufacturer MBDA under which they were planning to produce short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) systems for the Indian Air Force for the Maitri programme.

The Akash air defence missile system has already been developed by the DRDO indigenously and its development trials were completed successfully by the agency in Odisha recently.

The SR-SAM is also planned to be a project in the same class, highly placed sources said here.

The IAF feels that when the indigenous system meets the requirements of the force, then there is no requirement for importing or co-developing a similar system, they said.

As per the proposed SR-SAM project, the IAF had to induct 49 Missile Firing Units (MFUs) of the co-developed missiles.

The IAF has already placed orders for eight squadrons of the Akash surface-to-air missile and it would require to place orders for another 25 squadrons of the weapon systems to meet its complete requirement of air defence missiles of this range, the sources said.

mody · Post by **mody** » 04 Aug 2014 16:07

The report about Maitri and Akash is strange. The missiles and the intended roles vary quite a lot.
Akash does not have a seeker and carries a very big warhead for a SAM.
Maitri or for that matter any SRSAM was always supposed to have a seeker and would not carry such a large warhead.

Just to cover the total requirement for SRSAM, they would need to order an additional 29 squadrons of Akash, as per the report. The number is simply too big.
Besides apart from IAF, I feel IA would have an even bigger requirement for SRSAM systems.
The ideal thing to do would be to do the following:

1). For IAF increase order for Akash to 16 squadrons from the current 8. Hopefully MK2, for the new order of 8.
This is required in my opinion, even without the requirement of SRSAM. From the current order, 6 squadrons are meant for the eastern sector and 2 of the already deployed squadrons are in Gwalior and Pune. Balance 8 would be required for cover the western and northern sectors.
2). Order SPYDER missiles for IA and IAF, to cover the immediate requirement for SRSAM.
3). Concentrate on the development of Astra MK1 and if possible, try to also develop an Astra MK1 derivative with IIR seeker, derived from the NAG project.
4). Once matured, Astra MK1 to be the basis of our indigenous SRSAM system.
5). Have DRDO concentrate on getting to the holy grail of tactical missile development for India, seeker technology.
We should put in maximum effort to develop IR, IIR, mmW and RF seekers for the complete range of our tactical missiles.
Even the Astra currently is being developed using an Agat seeker and hence producing high quantities of this missile, will not exactly be cheap.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Aug 2014 16:29

From where did the INR 30,000 crore figure also come from. Looks like a hit job written all over it.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Aug 2014 16:48

Aditya_V wrote:From where did the INR 30,000 crore figure also come from. Looks like a hit job written all over it.

That is a figure that has been bandied about since c. 2007 when DRDO and MBDA began talks on Maitri.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 04 Aug 2014 17:40

SSridhar wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:From where did the INR 30,000 crore figure also come from. Looks like a hit job written all over it.
That is a figure that has been bandied about since c. 2007 when DRDO and MBDA began talks on Maitri.

The amount is understandable - only 5-6 billion USD in ~2007 USD.

I would say the timing needs to be commented upon.

More like an episode of Yes Minister.

Much Decorated General – I need XXX amount of money to import the weapons. Weapons that my men use to save your XXX. (not said but implied – I am the one making the sacrifices you idiot)

Minister – But the list is too much for my budget allocation! (not said – the list ain’t gonna pass with me, I am the one put incharge of your affairs, by the people, you idiot)

Much Decorated General – The borders are so not secure we have ammo for only 3 days. (not said – I will not let you indigenize anything unless you get me at least the amount of imports that are absolutely necessary etc. etc.)

Minister – Ok put down in writing the amount/type of weapons that must be imported (not said – for everything else there is the DRDO+DPSU and I will sweeten the deal with OROP etc. etc.)

Much Decorated General – Here is my list (not said – Deal sweetening be damned, I need to go public on how much I have had to sacrifice lest something bad really happens and my reputation gets besmirched by this dimwit)

Minister – OK (not said – this guy will send out a lifafa story, I need to send in a lifafa story to my own outlets lest something bad really happens and my reputation gets besmirched by this dimwit)

Sometime later two lifafas land - one in Some ToILet publication and another in Some Friend of the Minister publication.

Some ToILet publication – 30000 crore Rupees project to import not going through due to the politicos idiocy/savvy (not said – the last word will be what you want Minister, just show me the money... etc. etc.)

Some Friend of the Minister publication – 30000 crore Rupees project to import not going through due to the politicos savvy (not said – the last word was what you wanted Mr. Minister, hope to continue the relationship. Just show me the money... etc. etc.)

So Maitri gets dumped for getting some other high ticket but unavoidable import and two guys somewhere are waiting for two different but similarly stuffed lifafas.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 04 Aug 2014 17:49

ravi_g wrote:
SSridhar wrote:[

The amount is understandable - only 5-6 billion USD in ~2007 USD.

I would say the timing needs to be commented upon.

More like an episode of Yes Minister.

Much Decorated General – I need XXX amount of money to import the weapons. Weapons that my men use to save your XXX. (not said but implied – I am the one making the sacrifices you idiot)

Minister – But the list is too much for my budget allocation! (not said – the list ain’t gonna pass with me, I am the one put incharge of your affairs, by the people, you idiot)

Much Decorated General – The borders are so not secure we have ammo for only 3 days. (not said – I will not let you indigenize anything unless you get me at least the amount of imports that are absolutely necessary etc. etc.)

Minister – Ok put down in writing the amount/type of weapons that must be imported (not said – for everything else there is the DRDO+DPSU and I will sweeten the deal with OROP etc. etc.)

Much Decorated General – Here is my list (not said – Deal sweetening be damned, I need to go public on how much I have had to sacrifice lest something bad really happens and my reputation gets besmirched by this dimwit)

Minister – OK (not said – this guy will send out a lifafa story, I need to send in a lifafa story to my own outlets lest something bad really happens and my reputation gets besmirched by this dimwit)

Sometime later two lifafas land - one in Some ToILet publication and another in Some Friend of the Minister publication.

Some ToILet publication – 30000 crore Rupees project to import not going through due to the politicos idiocy/savvy (not said – the last word will be what you want Minister, just show me the money... etc. etc.)

Some Friend of the Minister publication – 30000 crore Rupees project to import not going through due to the politicos savvy (not said – the last word was what you wanted Mr. Minister, hope to continue the relationship. Just show me the money... etc. etc.)

So Maitri gets dumped for getting some other high ticket but unavoidable import and two guys somewhere are waiting for two different but similarly stuffed lifafas.

Damned if you buy, damned if you don't. What to do, now? Huh...

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 04 Aug 2014 18:06

We can only do one thing. Not get excited by reports. You can only fight with what we have and we do not even get to decide what we will have in our hands at any point.

Old negotiating tactics for an on going deal and old reporting tactics for a dumped deal and old reporting tactics for a possible new deal, all follow a predictable pattern in the media.

John · Post by **John** » 04 Aug 2014 18:31

Spyder has most to gain if SR SAM gets scrapped.

vic · Post by **vic** » 04 Aug 2014 19:28

It may be Modi effect that import everything lobby is crawling back into its dark holes.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 05 Aug 2014 02:10

Is Maitri already developed Mica? Or is it a completely new missile? Does it have some features what Barak/spyder doesn't have?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 05 Aug 2014 05:46

Maitri is at the powerpoint stage. And has been for a while. Good that it got canned

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 05 Aug 2014 05:47

Regarding the Maitri, I think the news is related to the recent successful tests of the Astra Mk. 1. If a vertically-launched Astra Mk. 1 were successful, I don't think there would be a need for the Maitri. It looks like the Indian military believes enough in the potential of that happening to hold off on this Indo-French "joint venture."

BTW, it was good to read in the report that Akash orders could double or triple. I've heard that before.

member_26622 · Post by **member_26622** » 05 Aug 2014 05:51

Hoping IAF is not dropping other acquisitions to free up $$$ for MMRCA.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 05 Aug 2014 06:58

there was no point in continuing with Maitri. Its not required. And can be substituted with Akash, Astra or Spyder. WE need to spend judiciously as UPA has left us with little money.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Aug 2014 07:34

jamwal wrote:Rs 30,000 cr Indo-French missile development plan in troubled waters
http://zeenews.india.com/news/nation/rs ... 52236.html
An Indo-French proposed joint venture expected to be worth around Rs 30,000 crore to develop short range air defence missiles seems to have run into rough weather as Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.

...

As per the proposed SR-SAM project, the IAF had to induct 49 Missile Firing Units (MFUs) of the co-developed missiles.

The IAF has already placed orders for eight squadrons of the Akash surface-to-air missile and it would require to place orders for another 25 squadrons of the weapon systems to meet its complete requirement of air defence missiles of this range, the sources said.

This is good considering both SR-SAM and Akash SAM specifications had overlapping engagement profiles. Given that the IAF is calling Barak-8 (with range of >70km) as MRSAM, Akash SAM with its 30km range is by its definition a SR-SAM. For Maitri type of SR-SAM with its own IR/RF seeker, the IAF is already inducting around 18 Sypder MFUs. So the IAF would need to order around 8 to 16 squadrons of Akash SAM to meet its complete requirement.

Total IAF SR-SAM requirements = 65 Missile Firing Units (MFUs)/Batteries [49 planned + 16 Akash on order]

16 MFUs -> 8 Akash SAM squadrons (on order)
18 MFUs -> Spyder SAM (on order)
31 MFUs -> ~16 Akash SAM squadrons (possible new order)

Total IAF SR-SAM requirements = 49 Missile Firing Units (MFUs)/Batteries [49 planned including 16 Akash on order]

16 MFUs -> 8 Akash SAM squadrons (on order)
18 MFUs -> Spyder SAM (on order)
15 MFUs -> ~8 Akash SAM squadrons (possible new order)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 05 Aug 2014 08:46

What does a Missile Firing Unit (MFU) mean? Does it mean a single launcher with 3 missiles in case of Akash and 4 x Missiles in case of SPYDER? Or, does it mean a whole battery with multiple TEL, C&C Vehicle, loader, replenishment vehicle and Radar?

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Aug 2014 08:51

Can you please substantiate about the order of Spyder SAM because there is no update of its induction with IAF .

John · Post by **John** » 05 Aug 2014 08:55

I believe one of the reasoning for short range missile is they are typically cheaper than large 600 kg+ missile like Akash. But in case of Akash it costs less than 1/2 million so there is no real cost advantage in purchasing short range system.

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Aug 2014 10:57

IIRC Spyder deal was 9x2 = 18 launchers with 200 missiles for around USD 500million dollars. For this sort of cost we can get twice or thrice the no of Akash, so why go for SR SAM at all?

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Aug 2014 11:01

If Israelis are not parting with seeker technology inspite of USD 4 Billion dollar deals then We should press ahead with Akash with Astra seeker plus AAD and reduce LRSAM fake JV orders.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Aug 2014 11:17

rohitvats wrote:What does a Missile Firing Unit (MFU) mean? Does it mean a single launcher with 3 missiles in case of Akash and 4 x Missiles in case of SPYDER? Or, does it mean a whole battery with multiple TEL, C&C Vehicle, loader, replenishment vehicle and Radar?

Good question. I think the author of that article means a missile battery rather than a single launcher unit. Although it is possible that there is confusion between the two as MFU typically means a single launcher unit rather than a complete system.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Aug 2014 11:30

in general none will part with seeker tech. it is on sale though from agat, sagem, thales, elta, elop to make $$ though.
seekers seem to be at confluence of high end semiconductors and opto-electronics...another of those 'engine' things only goras as 'permitted' to own and master.

there is no end to it but press forward with domestic efforts and deploy even if its 75% of the best. prototype is one thing, a proven production ready thing is another. we need to productionize as many protos as possible in all fields and start deploying like china did in 90s...fruits will surely come.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 05 Aug 2014 11:44

India plans to acquire 18 systems at a cost of $415 million (Rs. 1800 crore) for its air force, but the deal was reviewed by the Central Vigilance Commission, the government’s anti-corruption agency. The deal was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council in August, 2009 (as per wiki baba)

Orders by India = 18 batteries (108 launchers with 750 Python-5 and 750 Derby missiles)

Total 6/18 has been delivered so 108/3= 36 Launchers operational with 36*4=144 ready to fire missiles (4 missiles per launcher )

also 200 + 200 missiles delivered(both python & derby).

Source that 6/18 has been delivered
http://armstrade.sipri.org/armstrade/pa ... gister.php

Add Israeli on supplier & India on recipient to get the data

Although we are buying 750+750=1500 total missiles but at anytime 108*4=432 ready to fire units will be active so there will be 1068 missiles either as storage(backup/reloads) or IAF is planning to reuse them on LCA.

Rien · Post by **Rien** » 05 Aug 2014 12:30

Singha wrote:with nothing having started yet, its too late to say any IN ship could find use for maitri when induced maybe 10-15 yrs FOC.

its better to bring the Astra up to scratch and make a land/naval VL system for it like the russians did with the SA-15 tor.
being a AAM the airframe will have the tolerances needed for hard turn from vertical to horizontal post launch and then the engagement vs head on or crossing targets.

Hey Singha.

The missile was successfully tested without control and guidance systems on 9 and 12 May 2003. The missile was again successfully tested on 25 March 2007. On 27 March that year, vertical launch of the missile was carried out, suggesting the use of the missile as a long range surface to air missile for the Indian Navy to arm its destroyers and frigates and for the IAF.

http://sirfnews.com/sci-tech/india-s-fi ... 30mki.html

There's already a VL for it, for available for no less than 11 years. Also some other facts of relevance

Desi Metal Tarantula - Direct 1:1 replacement for Spyder Sam

Tata truck Tatra Truck
Rohini Radar Israeli radar
Astra, Mini Astra with Agat Python/Derby(is mini version of Python w/IR seeker)
or French IR seeker

(Karan confirms we have IR seeker tech!). This is all available off the shelf today. All of the components are already in service with the IA/IAF/IN so no need for endless summer/winter trails.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 05 Aug 2014 13:10

Thanks Tushar M

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Aug 2014 13:32

tushar_m wrote:India plans to acquire 18 systems at a cost of $415 million (Rs. 1800 crore) for its air force, but the deal was reviewed by the Central Vigilance Commission, the government’s anti-corruption agency. The deal was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council in August, 2009 (as per wiki baba)

Orders by India = 18 batteries (108 launchers with 750 Python-5 and 750 Derby missiles)

Are the number of missiles correct and deal value correct? $415 million for 1500 missiles means each missile would have to cost less $277K. That is 1/10 the price we paid for each MICA

.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 05 Aug 2014 14:49

The deal was cleared by DAC in 2009 , the negotiations & discussions would have taken 1-2 years or so.

so the deal value is based on 2007-08 value of the system (or 2009) that's why the cost of missiles are low.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Aug 2014 15:14

^^^
There is no way that a difference of 2-3 years will make a 10x+ price difference.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Aug 2014 15:27

For a cold launched Tor or even hot launched missiles of other kinds, the move from vertical to horizontal takes a lot of time and should be a soft turn. Astra as a short range air defence system seems a good growth path. Command+Seeker would make it deadly.

Akash will fire its booster for ~5 seconds and in that time it would have covered ~3.5 kilometers. I think during this time any kind of maneuver will be difficult overall. A true short ranged system will probably require a minimum range of ~1 km, just around the outer range of anti aircraft guns. I do not understand how Akash was mentioned as an alternative.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Aug 2014 16:46

Rohit, firing unit is a battery also a flight.
30 SAM-3 (Pechora) squadrons and 60 Firing Units.

Nitesh · Post by **Nitesh** » 05 Aug 2014 16:54

As of now Astra is using Agat seeker, which is getting manufactured here. Will we be able to modify it for our use?

John · Post by **John** » 05 Aug 2014 17:45

The information from sipri is simply an estimate i highly doubt we bought that many misdiles for that few systems. Besides each derby costs about a million thats price IN paid for two dozen we bought for SHAR.

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 05 Aug 2014 17:51

MICA is a French missile which in turn means will be costly while Python 5 & Derby are Israeli products (that's one point )

Again i will tell that 2007 was "7 YEARS AGO" which is a lot of time & Rupee has depreciated heavily.

we are also upgrading M2K at cost which is equal or more that what we spend to buy new MIG 29K for Navy.(so IAF might be french toast loving people).But we can't ignore the fact that M2k are one of the most readily available units in IAF .

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 05 Aug 2014 17:59

The Python 5 & Derby of SPYDER could be used on LCA (mentioned on earlier reports )

So all the missiles may not be for SAM system itself

John · Post by **John** » 05 Aug 2014 19:34

Yes IN purchased the Derby in 2005 which is even before Spyder and they paid 1 mill each so highly doubt SIPRI info on Spyder is accurate since the number of missiles was never disclosed in press briefings.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 05 Aug 2014 21:40

SIPRI sources info from local press, trade journals etc. Not always correct, but not necessarily wrong about such stuff. It's their analysis which is haphazard, chaps like Bidwai wrote for them.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 05 Aug 2014 22:21

Regarding Akash as SRSAM, it was validated against low flying and near range targets in the last round of testing.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2014 13:02

Interesting MARV design shown by Makeyev its got a slightly tilted nose.

MARV is back