Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

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UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Did CNN just annex Ukraine for Russia?
Either CNN has inside information on a sinister Kremlin plan to occupy all of Ukraine or it made yet another blunder. In a new report on challenges facing Europe the news channel apparently marked the Eastern European nation as part of Russia.
AHA!! They are quoting the best: UBCN:
UlanBatori wrote:
This land is my land, this land is our land..
From Vladivostok, to the Oder River..
From the Polar IceCap
To Odessa
Per Comrade Putin
And despite UkBapZis..
This land was made for u & me!
:mrgreen:
Just 2 'Ceasefires' away now..

V c that Comrade Putin has interceded on behalf of the starved, abandoned Ukrainian kids and allowed them to walk back to their lines, some even carrying empty weapons.
OBS ‏@7 minutes ago: "As of now we can say that 80% of our units have left," - Ukraine troops retreat from key town #Debaltseve: http://ow.ly/JfrgP

Gloom and Doom ‏10 minutes ago: Rebels allowing #Kiev Draftees to Leave #Debaltseve But Holding #NeoNazis? Some Confusion? http://www.chron.com/news/world/article ... 086758.php … #msnbc #foxnews #nyt #eu

Balkan news 12 minutes ago: Hundreds of Ukrainian military personnel are turning over their weapons in #Debaltseve, the head of DPR’s administration Leshchenko said.

Tore ‏@14 minutes ago: They seem to be happy: Kiev troops on their way out of hell. Video #Debaltsevo
(UBCN: Look at them crowded, standing on the garbage trucks: few helmets, no weapons.Clearly not an armed 'escape' but being allowed to leave after 'debriefing'. It is too cold to make them go without their pants and boots.)

Balkan news ‏16 minutes ago: Lavrov: If Lukashenko proposes mediating ceasefire in #Debaltseve, militia wouldn't object to it :rotfl:

Andrij Topchan ‏18 minutes ago: @poroshenko lies abt number of deaths in #Debaltseve , activists reports: morgue in #Artemivsk is full of bodies
Alec Luhn ‏31 minutes ago: APC crews say they've picked up hundreds of soldiers escaping #Debaltseve on foot. Tire of APC was hit by mortar fire
UlanBatori
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

UBCNews Stlategic Collespondent was wondering about this stlategy: What could Pro-Democracy Anti-Coup Freedom Fighters do with 7000 prisoners, many wounded? It would just give the EU and SDOTUS more excuses to :(( :((.
So the smart thing to do is to allow them to go back straight to Kyiv. Historical precedent: Russian troops returning from the front in 1917.
If they can get their hands on some rope... the lampposts in Kyiv are waiting. :twisted:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

More on Victorious FuEUNu-land Victory:
Media Studies Center ‏27 minutes ago: VIDEO: Ukraine army squad surrenders at #Debalzewo #Debaltseve -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfziRDambrY … via @23Knowledge23 WARNING: Sound of music

The EIDP ‏10 minutes ago: Various DNR separatist commanders claim that 2000 or 3000 Ukrainian soldiers were killed in #Debaltseve http://www.interfax.ru/world/424948 "

AletheiaLibya ‏9 minutes ago: Hilarious - Lavrov just called for a "ceasefire, including in the #Debaltseve pocket" #Russia #Ukraine
No need for translation. Obviously genuine: they get the flag upside down at first!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Deans »

UlanBatori wrote:UBCNews Stlategic Collespondent was wondering about this stlategy: What could Pro-Democracy Anti-Coup Freedom Fighters do with 7000 prisoners, many wounded? It would just give the EU and SDOTUS more excuses to :(( :((.
So the smart thing to do is to allow them to go back straight to Kyiv. Historical precedent: Russian troops returning from the front in 1917.
If they can get their hands on some rope... the lampposts in Kyiv are waiting. :twisted:
That is why the rebels offered safe passage to the Ukies from the pocket, provided they gave up their weapons. The Minsk agreement called for an exchange of all POW's so there was nothing the rebels could have done with them. The dissatisfied soldiers returning
home are unlikely to ever want to fight for Chocolate again. However bodies of some of the foreign volunteers in the pocket
will probably start turning up soon.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

O All*h!
John Schindler ‏@2 hours ago: "A third of us made it, at most": How many of the ~8K ZSU troops in #Debaltseve cauldron actually made it out? http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/world ... tseve.html
Viktor Kovalenko ‏@MrKovalenko 33 minutes ago Ukraine Commented the #Debaltseve situation for @FT correspondent today. Now I'm in the process of talking to @WashingtonPost reporter.
Wow! First war fought entirely on Twitter, Internet connection/ WiFi working straight through the battle?
Dr. Dzerzhinsky ‏13 minutes ago: The decision to leave #Debaltseve was taken by commander of the 52 battalion. Kyiv Post report similar: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-po ... 81128.html
Probably read UBCNews here and saw da writing on da wall.. :mrgreen:
Last edited by UlanBatori on 18 Feb 2015 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

I have a feeling that Mariupol will be different - the Azov Brigade there are explicitly Nazis. They have already been reported as "cleansing" the town of Shiko.. when they overran it earlier. When Mariupol "ceasefires" in Novorussian hands, these guys won't be shown much kindness.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Philip »

Debacalseve news.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... k-or-twist

Xcpts:
After separatists' victory in Debaltseve, will Putin stick or twist?
If Russia and the rebels continue to breach the ceasefire or otherwise overplay their hand, they are likely to face a much tougher US response
Debaltseve
Ukrainian troops in tanks near Debaltseve. Photograph: Gleb Garanich/Reuters
Simon Tisdall
Wednesday 18 February 2015

Vladimir Putin has got what he wanted. The Kiev government can call it a “planned retreat” if that makes it feel better, but the watching world will join the Russian president in viewing the Ukrainian army’s withdrawal under fire from the strategic hub of Debaltseve as a highly significant victory for the Moscow-armed separatists.

The critical question now is: will this be enough for Putin, or will he and the rebels press their advantage and try to further enlarge the territory under their control? Despite last weekend’s ceasefire, fighting has continued along other parts of the frontline, around Donetsk and at the government-held southern port city of Mariupol.

With Ukraine’s army on the run, with President Petro Poroshenko politically wounded after making big concessions to achieve last week’s Minsk II peace deal, and with Kiev’s divided western allies fulminating impotently and uncertain what to do, Putin may calculate that he can keep on going until he chooses to stop.

Separatist leaders make no secret of their ambition to carve out a viable, self-contained entity encompassing the three eastern oblasts of Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv that could, in time, become an independent state. Moscow may prefer an autonomous region inside Ukraine that does Russia’s bidding – another so-called frozen conflict.

But if Putin and the rebels continue to breach the ceasefire or otherwise overplay their hand, they are likely to face a much tougher, escalatory US response. Barack Obama and Nato have avoided any military involvement so far, partly at the bidding of the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, the EU’s lead mediator. With Kiev reiterating its calls for western weapons and material and Putin’s proxies running amok, this restraint cannot last much longer.

John Kerry, the US secretary of state, was on the phone to Moscow on Wednesday, warning of dire consequences. On Tuesday Joe Biden, the US vice-president, pointedly warned Putin to knock it off, and the Obama administration fiercely criticised Russian behaviour at an angry UN security council meeting.

Prodded awake by Washington, David Cameron unexpectedly waded in too. He urged European countries to stick together in facing down Moscow and not be afraid to jointly impose additional, painful economic sanctions – which is very much the American line.

It is unclear, too, how long Poroshenko can hold the line at home. He was forced to give much away in the Minsk talks – too much, according to some nationalist politicians. Now his forces have suffered a demoralising defeat. Some suggest he may try to reassert his authority by imposing martial law.

Semyon Semenchenko, a battalion commander and MP, accused the military command, and by implication Poroshenko, of betraying the country’s interests in Debaltseve. “We had enough forces and means. The problem is the command and coordination. They are as bad as can be,” he said on his Facebook page.

Even as the US and UK appear to be gearing up for a bigger confrontation, the Europeans are still desperately hoping Debaltseve will mark the de facto beginning of the ceasefire, not its end. Stephane Le Foll, a French government spokesman, said France would do everything it could to keep Minsk II alive. He hoped the separatists would now honour the deal. Some rebel leaders in Donetsk have indicated they will.

This approach may be characterised as either valiantly persistent or foolishly naive. Putin knows EU countries will avoid armed confrontation by all means, and are split on the question of tougher sanctions. Like all bullies, he despises weakness, and this may be what he sees in Franco-German attempts to keep talking. He may decide to bank his winnings and call a halt. Equally, he could be tempted to push his luck and grab more territory.

For their part, the Americans (and their British mouthpiece :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: ) are fast running out of patience. Merkel and Hollande, with only imperfect solutions available, are caught in the middle as never before. They may be the only two people standing between Europe and a wider war.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 52339.html
Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russian rebels ambush and seize Kiev troops during continued fighting in the strategic town of Debaltseve despite ceasefire
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Escape from Debaltseve: Ukraine's soldiers tell how they got out alive (Basically debriefed like Pakis coming down the Khyber Pass after the great victory on the Shomali Plain in 2002)
Six soldiers were seriously wounded in the fight. Sardarian said that he along with other medics gave them first aid but had to leave them on the ground, hoping the following armored vehicles would pick them up. :( “The rest of the way we walked on foot because our car was totally broken," Sardarian said.
What happened in this place in August?
The city of Ilovaisk became a deadly trap for thousands of Ukrainian soldiers in August and September. This was the first time when Russian regular troops were reported on massive scale fighting on Ukraine's territory.
Prekharia, who had survived the Ilovaisk massacre in late August, said that the head of General Staff Viktor Muzhenko simply repeated the mistake, allowing an encirclement to happen once again, which claimed hundreds of lives.
“In Ilovaisk we could believe Mr. Muzhenko, who said that the Russian troops abruptly showed up there. But In Debaltseve, we can't trust him anymore. It was obvious that the military commanders failed in their job," Prekharia said. “The commanders should have given the order to break through and retreat as soon as the threat of encirclement became obvious."
Maksym Tymochko, 22, a junior lieutenant who also served in the 40th brigade. Tymochko said he had to change five cars on his way out of Debaltseve because they kept getting destroyed.
So the 4 cars getting destroyed implies many casualties - unless they were all issued Chrysler or Lamborghini cars?
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

Poroshenko says that they were never surrounded and are withdrawing in an organised manner.
The militia must have kept these fellas for a day or two after the fighting ceased in Debaltseve declaring that they would be released during prisoner exchange.

That ways they could have rubbed more egg on Poroshenko`s face. There shouldnt have been a hurry to let them go. Right now, the jokers in Kiev still arent completely naked. They still have their chhaddhis no matter how torn.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

Here is what Poroshenko is saying
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/f ... els-russia
Poroshenko tried to argue that the retreat had “put to shame Russia, which on Tuesday was still demanding Ukrainian soldiers put down their weapons”.
Not a single newspaper in the west is applauding the militia for letting these guys off. If Putin and Zakharchenko think that they will get any credit for their magnanimity, they cant be more wrong.

Milosevic let the American bomber pilot go. That didnt stop him from being hounded as a war criminal. The strategically enlightened west only listens to strength.

The 6000 troops of Ukraine junta must have been kept in captivity till Merkel called up Putin. Then putin could have requested Zakharchenko, who might have agreed, thinking about the crying families of these hapless prisoners and let them go. By that time Poroshenko`s chhaddhi would have gone.

What stops more neo nazi volunteers from coming to the east to fight if they think they will be sent home even if they lose. Why will people dodge the draft now ?!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

The headlines will be "Russia slaughtered X000 ukrainian nazi troops" rather than "Russia release X000 ukrainian nazi troops", so the only benefit here for Russia is if these troops go back and start surveying Kyiv for appropriate lamp posts as UBsaar points out.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Why will people dodge the draft now ?!
Because now they have 3000 herrowic escapees to talk to about the wonderful vacation in balmy Debaltsevo. Just like France has never invaded Russia since the Great Napoleonic Blunder. Germany has less memory because only some handfuls survived to return to Germany in 1945. Those who survived Stalingrad were escorted to lifetime vacations in the East. Lots of good roads reminescent of German autobahns in Siberia, no doubt.

UBCN was wondering what the heck they would do with the burden of 8000 hungry, sick, exhausted and many wounded men in addition to the misery of all the civilian population to rehabilitate. Best solution was to get them out of there. The more Poroshenko opens his orifices, the angrier the survivors become.

Plus, it turns out that there are only about 2000 to 3000 survivors, as far as I can determine. Most of the pics showing UkBapZis waving happily from tanks and APCs is after they had walked over 20 km through minefields and -15 C snow and ice after starving the past 2 weeks before they were picked up by UkBapZi vehicles on the road to the hospital town.
If there had been a general surrender and then that fact had been revealed 10 days from now, it would be declared a genocide, since only 22 UkBapZis have been KIA per Poroshenko's madarssa math. Now it's just, well... 'heroic victory' for UkBapZiStan.... It's like the Light Brigade returning.
And then they came back
But not, not the 600
The questions about the madarssa math are only beginning. Good hope for the lampposts still. :mrgreen:

What really worries me is the plight of the Russian ethnic minority west of the LOC. I don't know how Comrade Vlad proposes to address that issue.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

See this number:
Sputnik 6 minutes ago #Poroshenko Says Nearly 2,500 #Ukrainian Soldiers Left #Debaltseve http://bit.ly/1FuhNFL
What about the other 5500? :shock:

And the sanctions are definitely paying off:
Alcuin Bramerton 8 minutes ago: #Ukraine: #IMF requires #Kyiv to increase cost of gas to consumers by 280%.
Mikko Laaksonen ‏21 minutes ago; 2,475 Ukrainian troops withdrawn from #Debaltseve by Wednesday evening –#Poroshenko http://www.unian.info/war/1045823-2475- ... henko.html
Sample from a unit that was 'stationed outside Debaltsevo'
"My company went in with 150 men. Of them, 45 are left," said the soldier, who gave his name only as Misha.
Next dictator in Kyiv: UberSturmFuehrerSemenchenko
Some believe the fallout could prove politically fatal for Mr Poroshenko's government, which has presided over a serious of military debacles since coming to power last year.

"Saur Mogila, Ilovaisk, the airport, Debaltseve," wrote Mr Semenchenko, citing a string of Ukrainian defeats dating back to last summer.

"These are not testament to Russian superiority, but of the massive heroism of the people's army and the gross incompetence, if not worse, of the high command," he wrote.
From the above, I assume he was in charge of Crimea since he doesn't list it. :rotfl:
Last edited by UlanBatori on 19 Feb 2015 02:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

UlanBatori wrote: What really worries me is the plight of the Russian ethnic minority west of the LOC. I don't know how Comrade Vlad proposes to address that issue.
We can be assured that champions of freedom, democracy, love, and motherhood in the media in Germany/EU/UK/USA will never report on any ongoing genocide of the pro-russian peoples in western ukraine. This is the kind of civilized western behavior that causes and more people to fart in the general direction of USA/UK/EU when they speak of "human right" concerns in the rest of the world.

UBsaar, this deliberate madrassa math claiming only 2500 returning means the original count was not 8000, if this 2500 count is verifiable...this helps all the lying poroshenko ukraine-nazi scum and their supporters in the west to claim "huge human rights" violations against the norms of geneva convention accusations against Russia and escalate the war.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/19/world ... .html?_r=0

First paragraph says -
Ukrainian forces fought their way out of the embattled town of Debaltseve in the early hours of Wednesday, choosing a risky overnight breakout rather than surrender as they abandoned the town to Russian-backed militants.
Still, by avoiding capture, the soldiers who made it out also avoided handing the rebels a powerful bargaining chip.
Oleksandr I. Bogunov, an army private, said the order came to carry only what would be useful for the fight on the way out, and leave all other ammunition and weaponry behind.
This is amazing skullduggery by newyork times. Absolutely brilliant.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

This is what is so great about American Free Press and Freedom and democracy, surrender is as good as winning a fight and a testament to the bravery of the person who surrenders in a fight. I can see why the american establishment and the surrender monkeys in the paki army get along so well...peas in a pod.

So all these brave ukraine nazis who surrendered will now be provided new guns and tanks (if they can be convinced to die for poroshenko once more) and sent back in to fight the freedom fighters that they "defeated" by surrendering.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

The Ukrainian Breakout is truly awesome. You have to read very carefully to realize that these "tactical withdrawees" were actually stationed well OUTSIDE Debaltseve. The PDACFF bypassed them on the way to the city to take the railroad yard before it was totalled by the UkBapZis, so they found themselves free to walk(they would have run but the snow looks too deep for that) out.

The ones inside the city were captured, debriefed and probably let go as well. Or killed. I haven't heard of a single one that said: I saw the enemy. These are all survivors who ran b4 that happened. They got some shelling, but nothing serious, they did not have to shoot their way out at all except for some random exchanges. No one was blocking the roads!
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

The other thing is: look carefully at the "survivors". The ones talking to the media certainly don't look like men who have been up without sleep, being shelled night and day, short of food and shelter and heat, in a place where it was -15 C, for the past month. Just imagine what those guys look like: they will be haggard, red-eyed, a month's beard, ragged, dusty clothes.. eyes will look haunted because of what they have seen. Not bragging idiots.

Why don't these look like that? Because these are the UkBapZis who were on the Outside, asked to go to relieve the siege of Debaltsevo, and instead, just turned around and got back to safety ASAP. That's why they talk about "road not closed", and getting their APCs and 'cars' shelled.

I think the ones who got trapped inside are either still there, or dead, or certainly not up to talking to anyone. Maybe they are dragging themselves towards the palaces of Kyiv to get revenge.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

Poroshenko probably knows just as well as anyone that any of the ukrainian military returning from Debaltseve would have good reason to get him acquainted with a shapely lamp-post near poroshenko's office. He has at least 3 good reasons to get all the ukrainian military remain trapped in Debaltseve and he hopes they get killed at the hands of the freedom fighters. Solves two problems for him: his western allies get to write articles in NYT and other propaganda outlets about the brutality of russia (2) his western allies in EU/US get to use that as an excuse to escalate and he gets a pat in the head for being a obedient rent boy (3) he can also be assured that none of those who he abandoned in Debaltseve to die will return to his vicinity and start printing invitations for the Poroshenko-lamppost wedding and invite the Ukrainian public for the ceremony.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

This guy was still outside the perimeter.
This picture shows guys being evacuated on vehicles that were going around picking them up - but IMO they still look like part of the relief columns, not people who have been in trenches for weeks.

Now about this 'orderly withdrawal':
The order to retreat was kept secret until the last minute, and soldiers were told to prepare in 10 minutes and pile into the beds of troop transport trucks, according to Albert Sardaryen, a 22-year-old medic who made the journey.

The trucks lined up on the edge of town, Mr. Sardaryen said, while tanks and tracked vehicles formed lines on either side of the truck convoy to try to shield the soldiers. The column drove through farm fields rather than use a main road that had been mined, and the trucks kept their headlights off to make them harder to spot.

The column came under attack almost immediately, he said, and trucks started breaking down and colliding in the dark. By dawn, the column was strung out on the plain and taking fire from all sides.

“They were shooting with tanks, rocket propelled grenades and sniper rifles,” and firing at the disintegrating column with rockets, he said. Dead and wounded soldiers were left on the snowy fields because there were too many of them to carry once the trucks were hit.

“We stabilized them, applied tourniquets, gave them pain killers and tried to put them in a place with better cover,” Mr. Sardaryen said of the wounded. Later, a Ukrainian unit from outside the encirclement drove in to try to retrieve the wounded, he said.


Mr. Sardaryen said he ran on foot for the final four miles or so. Many of the soldiers who made it out also did so on foot, though some trucks made it all the way through, he said.

Oleksandr I. Bogunov, an army private, said the order came to carry only what would be useful for the fight on the way out, and leave all other ammunition and weaponry behind.
But all of the above may be 400% BS. These guys may not have been anywhere near Debaltsevo.
Last edited by UlanBatori on 19 Feb 2015 06:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

Just as I thought, these horror stories from Ukrainian military was going to happen no matter what Putin did. The play has been scripted and no real world event can change the script, obviously.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

We have not faught a war in like 3 days, and we could really use one to scratch the itch, like right now. Just one, tiny-winy teensey-wincey, defensive lethal assistance aided, indirect, non strategic, cold, localized, anti-terrorist, errr.. war?

Oh, sorry, slip of the tongue there, I mean that there mild disagreement with weapons, defensive lethal aid not war. Who would want war, not me, never.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Singha »

I would imagime Artemivsk is next on the rebel hitlist.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Strangely, in closing the Debaltseve 'kettle', the PDACFFs seem to have given up some territory near the mouth of the trap. Maybe a big counter-offensive from Kyiv.

Artemivsk is supposed to be a big ammunition store. If they take that, road to Kharkiv is open. Maybe fresh vodka supplies may be coming to help.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Meanwhile, for those who were actually inside the pincers:
In Debaltseve there is a massive surrender of weapons by (Ukrainian) forces. These people number in the hundreds," DAN quoted Maksim Leshchenko as saying. (Reporting by Thomas Grove, editing by Elizabeth Piper)
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Tuvaluan »

If the claim now is that there are a few 100s stuck in Debaltseve, that must mean that the "huge ukrainian military force of 8000" stuck in Debaltseve was inflated or alternatively, nearly all of them are dead but then it would be easy to get photo evidence of such deaths and used as ammunition against Russia.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Kyiv gaddi shaky
By David Levine
14 February 2015

The Ukrainian military is showing signs of severe decomposition and demoralization, as antiwar sentiment rises to the surface among Ukrainians in Kiev-controlled territories. In response, the government of Petro Poroshenko is cracking down on dissent.

On January 28, Ukrainian “hacktivist” group CyberBerkut published on its website documents obtained from the computer of Ukraine’s chief military prosecutor Anatolii Matios. According to the documents, during the preceding two weeks, 1100 members of Ukraine’s armed forces lost their lives, over 100 damaged tanks were left on the battlefield, and tens of Ukrainian soldiers and officers were taken prisoner.

The hacked documents indicate that, contrary to the affirmations of leading Ukrainian politicians, the military is disintegrating. New recruits are deserting and fleeing to Russia and other countries. Servicemen have been putting their weapons and ammunition up for sale. Commanders are the first to desert their units. Young and inexperienced fighters are being ordered into senseless attacks against rebel forces. Residents of areas near the battlefields are reportedly being terrorized by plundering deserters and “homicidal maniacs in uniform.”

The documents include an order that information on war losses is to be kept secret and reported to the counter-terrorism center of the Ukrainian Security Service only. This document, as well as the figure of 1,100 servicemen lost in the second half of January, lend additional credibility to the rebels’ estimates of war casualties, which thus far have exceeded those of the Ukrainian government and United Nations by approximately a factor of ten. The UN’s most recently published figure was 5,400 civilians and military personnel killed since the start of the conflict.

The higher figures received further support on February 8 from the German Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (FAZ). Citing anonymous sources in the German intelligence establishment, the FAZ estimates 50,000 dead. It asserts that the Ukrainian government and UN figures have been greatly understated.

Matios was quoted in Ukrainskaya pravda on February 10 as saying that the prosecutor’s office is currently investigating the desertion of 10,266 servicemen. “It is particularly offensive that we have had desertions not just among the rank and file, but among generals as well. We just filed in court charges of desertion against a brigadier general of the Foreign Intelligence Service.”

Matios added that his agency does not have information on desertion and other crimes committed by members of volunteer battalions.

The Ukrainian parliament adopted a law on February 5 that creates “barrier detachments” to enforce military discipline and empowers commanders to use their weapons against deserters and other subordinates engaged in criminal activities. Another law adopted on February 3 introduces secret investigative proceedings against draft dodgers. President Petro Poroshenko has called for a law to prevent draftees from leaving the country.

Earlier, on January 29, Donetsk People’s Republic Ministry of Defense Deputy Commandant Eduard Basurin made an announcement regarding prisoners of war. “[They come to us] hungry, freezing cold, and demoralized. The only thing they ask for is not to be shown on camera and for their names not to be disclosed, so that their family members who remain at home will not come under attack.” Basurin insisted that the prisoners are safe, their lives are guaranteed, and they will be released after investigations are completed.

On February 11, the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), a think-tank based in London, England, published its annual “Military Balance.” The report indicates that the Ukrainian army is not prepared for the conflict with the rebels. It is using obsolete equipment and is experiencing a shortage of armored vehicles, artillery, and missiles.

The Ukrainian military mobilization, a large-scale program that includes conscription, began on January 20. With a number of exceptions, men up to age 60 are subject to the draft, which is to include up to 104,000 personnel, including women.

The mobilization thus far has been massively unpopular and has provoked extremely high rates of abstention. Recruiters have been chased away by residents from the villages of Dmytrivka and Kulevcha in Odessa Province. There have been reports of employers in Kharkiv refusing to distribute draft notices to employees. There have been demonstrations against the mobilization, particularly in Zaporizhia Province. Videos have appeared on the Internet showing women speaking before crowds of people, vehemently denouncing the Kiev regime and calling for peace (see, for example: here, here, here and here).

Ukrainian journalist Ruslan Kotsaba was arrested on February 8 for treason and espionage after publicly calling for resistance to the mobilization. Kotsaba had also asserted that the rebel fighters are not “terrorists,” that they do not consist of regular Russian forces, and that the majority of the population in the rebel territories do support them.

Subsequently, on February 11, Poroshenko announced that criticism of the mobilization “has no relation to democracy and the freedom of speech” and qualifies as “anti-state activity.” He said that the Ukrainian Security Service had already identified 19 people who had conducted a campaign to undermine the mobilization.

Draft legislation currently on review in parliament would make “public denial of or support for Russian aggression against Ukraine in 2014-2015” a crime punishable by up to three years of imprisonment.

The most intense fighting in recent weeks has centered around the town of Debaltseve, where Ukrainian forces had concentrated during the “truce” that ended last month. The town is located roughly at the midpoint between the rebel centers of Donetsk and Luhansk and occupies a strategically crucial location for the warring armies. Since February 9, rebel forces have been claiming control over the village of Logvynove on the main Debaltseve-Artemivsk road.

If the rebels manage to take control over country roads and field roads as well, then the thousands of Ukrainian troops in Debaltseve will be trapped without any supply lines. As of this writing, fighting continues as the Ukrainian army attempts to reassert control over the Debaltseve-Artemivsk road.

Under the ceasefire agreement signed in Minsk on February 12, which is supposed to go into effect at midnight on February 15, Debaltseve is to remain under Kiev’s control. However, the rebel republics’ leaders insist that their forces have practically surrounded Debaltseve and are simply waiting for the Ukrainian forces that remain there to surrender.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Probably half defected to Russian side.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Shreeman »

Exercise your memory re. Artemivsk people! It is no longer magical. Also note the passage of the UN resolution.

Kiev would like the east back, but it cant do much with force for now. And Russia wont let the east separate.

It is truly liquid oxygen. For those that remember such a joke.

The next push will be east, and not west/north. The western media is already claiming rebels are moving heavy artillary back. While in the samesentence claiming Latvia is under threat and ukraine must get long range weapons -- longer than the separation band.

There was a deal re. debaltsevo. It is now considered done and over. Now its up to porky to push back east and poke the bear.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Satya_anveshi »

In comments section of that telegraph article:
"According to reports of several Ukrainian and Russian newspapers the entire family of Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenk have allegedly left Ukraine. The background to this is an ultimatum of the Right Sector to Porsohenko, that he “would suffer the same fate as Gaddafi” if the situation in the Debalstsevo cauldron did not improve before the 23 February. At present 6,000 Ukrainian soldiers and voluntary brigades are surrounded in the cauldron."
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Deans »

The rebels priority has been recovery of territory and weapons from the Ukies and not POW's (same strategy followed in the battles last summer when surrounded Ukies were allowed safe passage out). Their estimate of heavy weapons recovered from the pocket:
80 Tanks (all usable). 110 APC's, 100+ Heavy artillery pieces, 20+ Grad launchers and 500 Tns of Ammo (which Ukies left intact).
This basically puts rebel tank strength on par with Ukrainians (who have lost 70-80% of their pre war armor, but are getting some
replacements from Czech and Polish Soviet era surplus).

Approx 2000-2500 men still in the pocket, these include the right wing units /outside volunteers. A similar number got out of the
pocket - some on their own, the others after handing over their weapons. The rest are casualties (incl. POW). Rebels are probably
understating their POW count, since commanders who surrendered could be tried for treason - as has already happened in the case
of 1 commander whose unit `meekly' surrendered.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by RSoami »

IMHO, The Ukrainian Junta govt troops have all surrendered.
The militia has just let them go after taking their weapons. So they went back to the Ukie lines. walking or running. Thats 80% of `withdrawal` according to Poroshenko.

The stories of running out while fired upon may be from the previous week. The New Dork Times and the general western media is deliberately playing down the fact that these hapless soldiers were let go after being surrounded. After all, this would give huge credibility and PR boost to the militia an Putin.

Also Putin is still counting on pro Russia sentiment in Ukraine. Therefore he is going soft on the Ukbapzis. As to how far he will go with this and what he will achieve is debatable.

But anyone and anyone who is following the conflict and western media will henceforth stop believing a word of these `newspapers`.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by Satya_anveshi »

A quote in Anti-Media article that suggest the motive behind the ceasefire deal:
by the end of the month if Merkel or Hollande have not yet accused Putin of violating the Minsk peace deal, the US position of arming Ukraine’s military will likely cease to exist.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Vijay: the soldiers shown riding on armored vehicles seem to be those picked up by the armored vehicles sent from Artemivsk: instead of going in to reinforce Debaltseve, they wisely turned around - those that could. There was another one shown where one tire had been shot off by artillery shrapnel.

Key: Look for those still with helmets and rifles and flak-jackets - those have not walked 20 or 30 miles, they are reinforcements that never went in, but still had trouble getting back out. The ones without helmets, looking half-dead - those are the survivors from inside the 'cauldron'.

Meanwhile, from the debaltseve tweet source, brought to u by UBCN, ahead of all these inferior media sources: 8)
shinobi ‏8 minutes ago

BREAKING : fighting reported near #mariupol & #Avdeevka is burning ! heavy smoke reported !
Sure, the Pro-Democracy Freedom Fighters have withdrawn the heavy weapons from Debaltseve and moved them far south. :mrgreen:
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Mariupol Tweets
Hermius ‏3 hours ago: All QUIET in mariupol despite kiev trolls trying to claim otherwise in order to pressure US for weapons....lol
UKRAINE TODAY ‏1 hour ago: Poland yet to make decision on evacuation of ethnic Poles out of #Mariupol http://uatoday.tv/politics/poland-yet-t ... 10426.html
Several tweets about 'Ukraine Forces in Mariupol Under Attack!' but each seems accompanied by "Obama please send A-10s" etc so it appears that the reality is a few mortars being fired at random which seems to be an Ukrainian custom, sort-of like Pakis firing into the air at weddings. No sign of any serious changes in the Mariupol situation.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

What would happen if Mariupol were now attached in force, with significant armor and artillery support? Given the news from Debaltseve, will anyone other than the Nazis actually stand and fight, or "withdraw" wisely, leaving their weapons and flak vests and helmets and uniform underwear? How is Poroshenko going to motivate those guys to sit there taking GRAD attacks for a week before the inevitable collapse?

Meanwhile in Debaltseve: From the ppl of the USA to the ppl of the DPR/NovoRussia:
Alcuin Bramerton 44 minutes ago:
#Ukraine: #US-supplied armored #Humvee captured at #Debaltseve. http://bit.ly/1Bry64T

Ville Kostian ‏@Kostian_V 1h1 hour ago

Ukrainian Ceasefire Slipping Away As Fighting Begins Near City of #Mariupol - #Ukraine #Russia http://www.matthewaid.com/post/11149203 ... s-fighting
0 replies 1 retweet 0 favorites
Ville Kostian ‏1 hour ago

#Ukraine - Pro- #Russia-n Rebels Building Up Their Forces Near Port City of #Mariupol - Matthew Aid http://www.matthewaid.com/post/11146227 ... orces-near

Alcuin Bramerton ‏@AlcuinBramerton 4m4 minutes ago

#Ukraine: Basurin: #Donetsk will not carry out offensives against #Mariupol. http://bit.ly/1zRnzJq #Kyiv #Odessa #Lviv #Luhansk #Debaltseve
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by vijaykarthik »

I think Chocolate has broken the will of the fighters. The soldiers will be loathe to work for chocolate anymore. Soldiers work more for the pride of the unit and their mates and hence walk into the face of death fully knowing the risks involved... and take that aspect way and all that's left in the shell is just dejection and worn men.

Chocolate hasn't played his cards well. I think that should include NATO and the other groups which are constantly giving military advise and junk to Uk. Im sure there will be another push to defeat the rebels... but this round has well and truly gone to the rebels.
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Re: Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

Post by UlanBatori »

Tomasz Maciejczuk 3 hours ago: No vodka in Artemivsk. No kiddings. Local authorities affraid of problems with soldiers from #Debaltseve

Armed Research 2 hours ago #Ukraine propagandist, Butusov, says 160+ UA soldiers killed in #Debaltseve. 110 taken prisoner. More data to come.
Ukrainian Soldiers’ Retreat From Eastern Town Raises Doubt for Truce
By ANDREW E. KRAMER and DAVID M. HERSZENHORNFEB. 18, 2015
Amid heavy fighting, Ukrainian soldiers were ordered to retreat from the strategic town of Debaltseve, where they had been surrounded by Russian-backed rebels.
Publish Date February 18, 2015. Photo by Anatolii Stepanov/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images.
ARTEMIVSK, Ukraine — Ukrainian soldiers were forced to fight their way out of the embattled town of Debaltseve in the early hours of Wednesday, casting further doubt on the credibility of a days-old cease-fire and eroding the promise of ending a war in Europe that has killed more than 5,000 people.

It was unclear Wednesday how many of the thousands of Ukrainian soldiers trapped in the eastern Ukrainian town had survived the hellish retreat under enemy fire and avoided capture. President Petro O. Poroshenko put the figure at 80 percent, but since the Ukrainian military has never commented on its troop strength, the final accounting may never be known.

By midday on Wednesday, as limping and exhausted soldiers began showing up in Ukraine-held territory, it became clear that the Ukrainian forces had suffered major losses, both in equipment and human life.

“Many trucks left, and only a few arrived,” said one soldier, who offered only his rank, sergeant, and first name, Volodomyr, as he knelt on the sidewalk smoking. “A third of us made it, at most.”
Bodies of Ukrainian soldiers
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