US military, technology, arms, tactics

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brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

One has to look at requirements to develop an understanding of the design choices -

* In STEALTH and STRIKE mode, with the F-35A&C, the USAF and USN essentially get a supersonic F117 with a similar payload BUT a strike fighter that is much more survivable, can self-escort and one that is significantly more combat capable thanks to its integrated avionics, sensor suite, speed, agility, and the fact that PGM's have advanced to a point that you can now effectively use a 500 lb or 250 lb bomb where a 1000 lb would have been used earlier. While this does not negate the use of 1000 and 2000 lb bombs, it does mean that many missions such as SEAD & CAS can use smaller munitions because they are as or more accurate and as or more lethal against the types of targets one is likely to encounter for such missions (radars, artillery, rockets, tanks, mobile-C2C, launchers, EW kit, decoys, etc etc).

* For fixed, fortified C2C targets in STEALTH MODE, the F-35A&C offer the exact same capability as the F117 that attacked these very targets in the Gulf War - i.e. 2000 pound bomb capacity internally (2 x 2000lb) with the added ability to exploit its massive SA advantage and EA/EW capability in addition to self-escort given it carries a pair of AMRAAM's along with those bombs which the F117 didn't.

* In an Air Defense suppressed environment, the F-35A&C using its internal+external stores can carry more payload farther than either the F-16C, or the F/A-18 Classic Hornet. In fact when stealth is not a consideration, the F-35A&C begins to resemble a slightly smaller F-15E (Lets say F-15E minus CFT's) than an F-16C or F/A-18 it is meant to replace. This is for many reason, but primarily due to the new operational requirements and the fact that it carries such a large amount of fuel internally for a single engine fighter.

* The performance in air-air, depends upon mission requirements obviously but if you take this out to actual combat requirements that exist today i.e at the ranges that the USAF deals with, the F-35A&C are fairly comparable to the F-16 and F-18 when those aircraft are kitted for those ranges and for those payloads EVEN if one is to look at metrics that were relevant at the times these aircraft were designed. The F-35 gets this from being clean, and having organic growth of growing to 6 internal AMRAAM's in the near-mid term. F-16's carry a lot of drag in EFT's, pods, and external stores and while you will continue to see the F-16 be better at sustained turns than a modestly loaded F-35, the F-35 will be closer to or better than the Super Hornet in slow speed, high alpha regime as the Norwegian Combat Pilot claims.

*
In the air-air domain the F-35 will be using its Stealth, its Avionics architecture that allows for superior Situational Awareness and teaming (In BVR & WVR), and its high alpha performance in WVR. Those are its strengths. While the F-16 has its own strengths as do most other aircraft each also come with their own weaknesses compared to the F35.

While many argue over the relevance of WVR, there is a general belief and consensus that the ratio of BVR to WVR kills in air-combat would continue to favor BVR as it has over the last few decades (The CSBA study also highlights this). While WVR would not be totally neglected and is something that is to be taken seriously, it would obviously be one consideration amongst many while analyzing combat aircraft performance requirements and trades.

Similarly, air-forces around the globe would continue to analyze what in WVR actually provides the advantage and how technology can be leveraged to get an edge. Here, more and more lethal WVR weapons, HMD's, and all aspect 360 degree EO/IR sensors mated with high performance mission systems capable of continuously tracking bogeys in a fur ball will continue to play an ever increasing role. MMI, and the role of technology in making WVR more lethal CANNOT be under-stated SINCE analysis, after analysis has shown that in Vietnam and beyond the LOOSER often had poor Situational Awareness, and often didn't even know he was being targeted - The latest CSBA study again concludes the same.

The, Su-30 and Su-35 and F-22 are the pinnacle of air combat maneuverability with the F-16 still standing out in its sustained performance especially at lower altitudes. However, there are limits to where you can grow. It would be expensive, and impractical to go much beyond 9G..High AOA performance again comes with challenge and is reliant on propulsion and acceleration allowing you to light up and get out from a very slow fight. Similarly, a lot of this is negated to some extent if your engagements continue to go higher in altitude since that effects your propulsion. Additionally, the time-compression and the time you actually have to engage an opponent in WVR depends on a lot of things, one being the fuel state you find your self post BVR jousting which given RCS and sensor-parity can eat a lot of your reserves since you are constantly reacting to counter your opponent's BVR posture. Stealth actually allows you more freedom to maneuver since engagement envelopes and detection ranges are shrunk.

Its tough to envision significant combat aircraft agility advantages from where the Super Flankers, raptors or other US experimental crafts have taken us. Therefore, combat performance edge would have to come from somehwhere else...Stealth, Speed, Avionics, Situational Awareness, manned-unmanned teaming, weapons lethality, directed enegy weapons for defensive and offensive ops and combined kinetic and non-kinetic offensive weapons (DEW's and EW) are all areas of investment that will continue to enhance current and future combat aircraft - more so than agility even though WVR is still considered a serious capability to develop and counter.

With Survivability, Range, Persistence, Magazine depth and Loiter time being the most important design requirements if the USAF (and the USN) takes a more Pacific (China) centric approach to future capability requirements (for fighters) we may see a cranked kite, or a flying wing-like 6th generation fighter that may trade some agility for the things mentioned above. In fact it may not even be a 9G capable aircraft if the trade means significantly lower all-aspect RCS, higher magazine capacity etc. If the overall objective of being agile, and maneuverability is to be in a better position to counter a bogey, or to kill your opponent then by all means, other areas which allow for the same must be actively pursued and a trade made after looking at all the capability in toto. If you don't do this, you are essentially only keeping one performance metric relevant because you are biased towards it. What if going form 9G to 7G means an order of magnitude reduction in RCS? or Directed energy weapons that can shoot down incoming missiles? or say 6 extra BVR and/or WVR missiles? Is that a good trade? These are the sort of things that the academic side of research and development looks at since it must run all these trades before issuing requirements and hence why the lead-up to an RFP is often as long (time wise) as the development phase. The ATF lead up was nearly 2 decades, and this involved massive wargaming, capability development, pilot studies, and air-combat academia actively researching design trades.



It has often been said here that no nation, no design team designs an inferior product on purpose. When I have spoken about trades I have been often rebutted by no design team would deliberately go for higher RCS, lower speed, lower agility, lower weapons load etc etc because they are spending so many billions on design why would they cheap out on xyz...However, combat aircraft/weapons system design is about making trades and you do a lot of analysis to determine your needs, requirements and provide your designers and teams the trade-space to work with. There is a reason the F-35 has a top speed of Mach 1.6, the F-22 around Mach2..why the F-35 is single engine, why it has a particular size of weapons bay..etc.. - If not you'd have a fighter with Mach 5 top speed, the stealth of a B-2, the combat load capacity of a B-52 and ofcourse the DEW capacity of a YAL. It will also most likely bankrupt the world economy :)


The F-35 in a dogfight – what have I learned so far?

http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampfl ... ed-so-far/

The best description I have ever heard for the F-35A, has been that it is essentially an F-16C Blk 50/60 with stealth, and incorporating all the advances in avionics and sensors/sensor fusion [thanks primarily to the efforts to develop the Advanced Tactical Fighter] over the last 2-3 decades. In that context it came about essentially because the USAF knew the F-16, tracing its heritage back to a no non-sense light weight fighter, had severe capability growth issues going forward and wanted a fighter to begin at size that the f-16 had grown to become. The other trades were influenced by stealthifying it , i.e. the high internal fuel carriage requirement was there because it had to do a mission of a heavily kitted F-16 block 50/52 on internal fuel (EFT means no stealth) and an internal bays were added for similar reasons. From that angle it makes perfect sense..Its essentially a more survivable and capable F-16 block 50, an aircraft the USAF is more than satisfied with. The only issue I see is that of sustainability, because a larger, stealthier aircraft will of course be more costly to sustain over 4-5 decades. Hopefully the PHM system can level the playing field and make cost increase marginal and something the higher capability can offset.

This :

Image


Becomes This :

Image

And its a good thing for its users. Most F-16 users (including the USAF ) operate it because it is multi-role, not because its a great light weight, low-avionics-footprint fighter as its first iteration was originally envisioned. In fact, its own designer has in the past (I think Air&Space Magazine) said that had he designed the F-16 as a multi-role fighter from the start, he would have made certain changes. Where the F-16 lacks is in survivability and the ability to penetrate integrated air-defenses. It also lacks in growth space, range, and payload at range. The F-35 remedies that. In that sense its a conservative design. Where its different is that it utilizes an extremely complex, complicated and expensive avionics architecture that provides a great deal of the combat effectiveness and survivability because its not merely a bunch of independent systems integrated to function as one (ala F-22, rafale, Super Hornet etc) but it is a set of apertures (minus the DAS) that are controlled, run, and operated by a single set of processors..The F-35 for example lacks a radar in the traditional sense..the entire back end is practically missing on the AN/APG-81, and most of the heavy processing is done by the ICP...
TSJones
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

I suspect that the f-35's problems may be of a more political nature than of technical merit.

especially when major criticism comes from publications like RT.

I am not seeing any indication that congress is seriously considering backing off from the program and that is the KEY FACTOR.

I think the bugs in the JSF program are being worked out if not already solved. there are major technical issues with the plane especially concerning software. the software may be the most important feature of the plane completing the force multiplier effect for the system. I don't think the general public understands this. certainly not Sprey.

the public wants to see large, sleek planes that can out dog fight anyone else and that is not the mission requirement for the JSF. Can the plane dog fight? It sure can, but that is not its only requirement. Given the right weapons load it can defend itself combined with its software package. That's not very dashing image but more than adequate for its missions.

finally, I am not sure where the Russia criticism is coming from other than to discourage US allies from participating in the program. That is also telling me that the program may be offering more worries to our potential opponents than we realize.

what is wondrous to me is that with the successful completion of the program, a huge portion of the US offensive military air power will be stealth oriented.
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

I suspect that the f-35's problems may be of a more political nature than of technical merit.
A mix of both but predominantly technical. It has overwhelming political and institutional support (services). The problems mainly arose when they wanted to compress the developmental cycle by nearly 40% from the ATF and they failed. The F-35 took the same amount of time to go from First Flight of Prototype to IOC, that the F-22 took (YF22 - First F-22 IOC). This is fine by most standards (same applies to the PAKFA) but they wanted to do it much faster. One advantage was that the F-35 followed the F-22 so a lot of the heavy lifting had already been done. A drawback was that the software, and integration piece of the F-35 was a multiple of the F-22 footprint and not a mere increment.
especially when major criticism comes from publications like RT
Most of the original criticism was well deserved. What the media loves to do is publish DOTE reports which have been proven to be biased given the nature of that organization and how its masters want it to perform. None of the safety risk the DOTE has been highlighting over the last many years has led to a single mishap, life lost etc. The one class A mishap that did occur was something they had not discovered during testing until it had happened. Yet if one were to go back and read some of their reports one would have thought that more F-35's would have been lost than the F-16's during that programs development. The media very rarely publishes, or editorializes the rebuttal to the DOTE report, which is equally as important since its coming from engineers, pilots, managers and leaders who do this for a living and who's reports the DOTE often exaggerates or misstates. The truth is usually somewhere in the middle, but by in large the F-35's developmental program was ambitious as far as timeline is concerned..An important lesson going forward..Politico's and overambitious corporate types grossly underestimated the time it would take to field a complex weapons system. Not the first time it has happened and definitely not the last time.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the joint program management structure isn't the best. The Navy needs have held the program back for too long even though the Navy doesn't ramp up till 2020 or so. Same with the Marines...the USAF should have been allowed, or rather ordered to run the F-35A as they saw fit, and the navy the other two versions. Stakeholders have a say in the way the development program progresses and this adds time to both existing time-lines and what is to be included in follow-on-development funding.

Some of the debate is institutional and political in nature simply because there isn't another very large program, and as the F-35 ramps up it competes with other investment priorities. The F-35 vs A-10 debate was extremely absurd given that it had been settled way back in the late 90s after the last supper. Same with the F-16 vs F-35 debate since the KPP's spoke of nothing special over and above the F-16 and F-18 as a requirement for agility. Then we have had other areas where certain reporters that now work for one of the F-35's largest suppliers, took it upon themselves to not miss any opportunity to smear the program, even taking to Facebook to personally attack the company, and its executives. In all honesty, if one has access to the F-16 and F-18 development archives (NYT archives are a good source) one would find that those programs were actually more troubled in the technical sense and received their level of bad rep. There was a senior General in the USAF who resigned because he saw the F-16 making the USAF inferior as a combat force and thought it would be a major contributor to getting pilots killed. It happens, but in the end once a critical mass is reached once large number of combat coded pilots, operators, maintainers get a hang of it the talk and rhetoric usually dies out. The F-18E/F became the bread and butter of the USN pilots after being the most attacked aircraft during its development because it didn't look like, or perform like the F-14 it was meant to replace..Yet most navy jocks swear by it given the current mission needs. In that sense the F-35A is quite close to the F-16 in the depth of missions it can perform..
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

GaN Patriot radar upgrade. First test radar is complete..



Image

Smaller panel (rear) has been in testing for a while now -

Image

Final radar planned for Poland (and possibly Qatar) and a potential competitor for the US Patriot replacement -

Image

Also, the latest PAC-3 MSE test intercept, with the Pac2 based / modified Juno TBM target missile...

shiv
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by shiv »

I am not totally convinced that the US is not trying to change the face of air warfare.

Shortly after WW2 the US believed that nukes delivered by long range bombers would end all wars. That not only led to the development of a whole lot of high flying long range bombers but also needles nosed supersonic fighters to shoot enemy bombers down at high altitude using missiles only. None of this panned out the way it was expected.

The YF-16/YF-17 fly off came because of a Vietnam era demand for an aircraft that could 'turn on a dime". I don't recall the kind of vicious criticism of the F-16 when it was selected way back then that I am seeing now about the F-35. The need for good climb rate, acceleration, turning radius etc continued beyond the F-16 right up to the F-22. No one has argued that the F-22 is Turkey or a lemon. It certainly takes "1970s concepts" of good manoeuvrability two steps higher by adding thrust vectoring and stealth.

Now suddenly, with the F-35, I am hearing the argument that manoeuvrability is oh so 1970s. To me it appears that the US is attempting to use complex electronics, networking, stealth and standoff weapons to render aerodynamic performance irrelevant. To that extent the US is trying to change the face of air warfare. Need to see where this will go.
TSJones
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

shiv wrote:I am not totally convinced that the US is not trying to change the face of air warfare.

Shortly after WW2 the US believed that nukes delivered by long range bombers would end all wars. That not only led to the development of a whole lot of high flying long range bombers but also needles nosed supersonic fighters to shoot enemy bombers down at high altitude using missiles only. None of this panned out the way it was expected.

The YF-16/YF-17 fly off came because of a Vietnam era demand for an aircraft that could 'turn on a dime". I don't recall the kind of vicious criticism of the F-16 when it was selected way back then that I am seeing now about the F-35. The need for good climb rate, acceleration, turning radius etc continued beyond the F-16 right up to the F-22. No one has argued that the F-22 is Turkey or a lemon. It certainly takes "1970s concepts" of good manoeuvrability two steps higher by adding thrust vectoring and stealth.

Now suddenly, with the F-35, I am hearing the argument that manoeuvrability is oh so 1970s. To me it appears that the US is attempting to use complex electronics, networking, stealth and standoff weapons to render aerodynamic performance irrelevant. To that extent the US is trying to change the face of air warfare. Need to see where this will go.
\
....not saying aerodynamic performance is irrelevant because it is surely not. ....it is one among other important factors in designing for mission requirements......
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

The YF-16/YF-17 fly off came because of a Vietnam era demand for an aircraft that could 'turn on a dime". I don't recall the kind of vicious criticism of the F-16 when it was selected way back then that I am seeing now about the F-35.
There was plenty of criticism on the F-16 both as a program, and as a concept. One of the persons leading the charge was a very well known USAF General John Vogt. (Commander, Allied Air Forces Central Europe) Criticism ranged from its lack of size, lack of space for avionics, cooling, etc - essentially growth, to too much emphasis on it being a no nonsense dogfighter and not a true multi role fighter with room to grow. Then there was the criticism of an untested FBW which was called a passing fad, flavor of the time and dismissed as unreliable. This essentially forced General Dynamic, and the design team to during the development phase of the program, focus attention and resources on a more robust, multi-role version of the aircraft that was the complete opposite of the path that folks like Sprey had been advocating..

In retrospect, it was this criticism, and the subsequent General Dynamics Fort Worth response to (Block 30, and subsequently F-16C) the pressure that ensured that thousands of the F-16 would be produced, and that it would still be in production in the new millennium. Interestingly the phase-1 of the F16 development cycle saw criticism on design choices (FBW, engine etc), LWF approach (no room to grow, or add mission capability) and while General Dynamics worked hard at correcting these so called errors, the phase 2 critisized the subsequent higher cost (50+% more than the original quote) that resulted from the shift in focus, and added capability.

Furthermore, criticism on the LWF approach dictating the size of the radome, and other avionics equipment was something that even to this day prevents the F-16 from taking over some of the missions of the F-15 that it could have in a post-cold war world.

Even during the conceptual phase, the fighter mafia had to literally battle their way through to get the project cleared, and there were high profile institutional folks that resisted them. Moreover, with social media, the media in general, and the internet criticism, and critique are extremely amped up and it is rather unfair to compare coverage on just about anything now to back in the 1970's, or even the early 80's. A lot of the F-35 criticism has to do with the delays and cost, and a lot of the former has been do to poor judgement and the latter do to some extremely questionable assumptions by an organization that has for the first time in its history tried to predict the sustainability cost of a weapons system over 5 decades (while the product was still under-development), and in doing so disagreed with just about everybody else (and has been proven wrong on several occasions on these assumptions).

If you go back just a decade or so, you'll see that the same folks, (Sprey et al) have used the same argument to bash the F-22 claiming it was an inferior combat performer to the F-16 and other aircraft of the past. Arguments even then were, stealth doesn't work, if it worked it is overrated, the f-22 doesn't perform as well as the F-16, the F-22 is too complicated, the f-22 relies too much on avionics that are always unreliable etc etc etc. Given the source of many of these articles, POGO, i can almost write it for them given the lines of attack haven't really changed over the last 10-15 years. Same will happen with next generation of aircraft, as long as special interests are still around
No one has argued that the F-22 is Turkey or a lemon
The left/motherJones sponsored Wheeler, Pogo, and of-course Sprey were all over the F-22 during its development and early deployment. A few lines, but more can be googled :

Simply put, said Pierre Sprey and James P. Stevenson, the F-22 Raptor is shaping up to be the Sturmvogel of the 21st century: a dazzling piece of technology that fatally ignores some of the unbending realities of aerial combat.....On the last two points, maneuverability and capability for a “quick kill,” the two analysts assert that the Raptor is inferior to the F-16 and several allied fighter designs in the crucible of “energy-maneuverability.”...."The only thing that will bail the U.S. Air Force out of this mess is the fact that they still have a lot of F-16s in service," Sprey said, "The day they send the F-16s to the 'boneyard' is the day the service becomes a non-Air Force."

And more from AeroDaily -

Pierre Sprey, a former Pentagon analyst and member of the so-called "fighter mafia," and James Stevenson, a former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School's Top Gun Journal, have criticized the F-22 Raptor as an inferior fighter not worth its rising programmatic costs.

"It will be a total waste of money and it's going to be a worse airplane than the F-16," Sprey told reporters April 7 at a briefing organized by Winslow Wheeler of the Center for Defense Information. "How could you not want to cancel it, other than you want to support the industry, which is the real reason for its existence.".....

Some more

Raptor opponents doubt the Air Force's claims about F-22 fighter superiority. At best, the fighter is only a slight improvement over the F-15 and maybe not at all, according to Pierre Sprey - one of the original "fighter mafia" crowd of the 1960s who wanted to build fleets of smaller, cheaper planes - and James Stevenson, former editor of the Navy TopGun magazine and author of Pentagon Paradox and other books on fighter aircraft acquisition.

Weighing in at about 42,160 pounds, the F-15 has a thrust-to-weight ratio approaching 1.2 and a wing loading of about 69 pounds per square feet, according to the Sprey-Stevenson briefings. By comparison, the Raptor has a thrust-to-weight ratio closer to 1 and wing loading of about 80 pounds per square inch.

These types of comparisons are based on outdated thinking and the capabilities of decades-old technology, Air Combat Command officials say.





Again, if it doesn't fit into their narrow analysis of the late 60's, or early 70's it HAS TO BE bad..They weren't as crazy back in the day because they still wanted to get published (and not just on RT or Sputnik and the occasional hat tip from a Billy French) and appear on news shows, and for Sprey he still had music to sell i guess..Wheeler retired but not before handing Pogo over to loyal disciple who hasn't shied away from bringing the gang together and rehashing similar arguments.

Here are Sprey's thoughts on the Su-30..Expert ones I may add given that he invented aircraft performance ;)

The Su-30MK is simply another modification of the Su-27, a not-very-high-performing Russian imitation of our F-15 that had its prototype flight in 1977. The new version is significantly heavier and has poorer dogfight acceleration and turn than the original, mainly because of all the weighty and draggy gadgetry (e.g., canards, vectored thrust nozzles) added to allow these spectacular maneuvers. The more of these turkeys the Russkies sell, the longer the now-ancient F-16 (designed in 1972) will reign supreme as the world’s best fighter. And the less reason we will have to buy F-22s at $355 million each.
It certainly takes "1970s concepts" of good manoeuvrability two steps higher by adding thrust vectoring and stealth.
There are still many things the F-22 will find it hard to beat a modestly loaded or even clean F-16. Sustained turning below 10K is probably one of them, and so is acceleration in certain circumstances. When you add a weapons bay, and stealth you can't take those off even if they are empty of lightly loaded however there are other performance metrics where the F-22 really shines..

But I would encourage, to spend some time with the 3 AIAA papers cited in the article a few posts above. Those are worth keeping and investing in since they really do go into some of the changes that have happened in aerial combat, and why those changes have forced designers to re-evaulate some of the agility metrics traditionally given low priorities.
Now suddenly, with the F-35, I am hearing the argument that manoeuvrability is oh so 1970s.
Absolutely not. What the F-35 designers and requirements have stressed are performance requirements comparable to a modestly loaded, combat condition F-16 or F-18, and hits High AOA performance is better than even the F-18 and inferior only to the F-22 out of western fighters. The only time an F-35 is clearly inferior to an F-16 is when the F-16 is CLEAN or loaded with a pair of missiles around low DI's - While that is OK for an academic comparison, that is hardly a combat worthy load out. Again, technical analysis based on known information has been done on this and the F-35 compares favorably to a modestly loaded, combat configured F-16, and is superior to the F-18 in many of those metrics. Its just not a cut above these aircraft in these metrics like the F-22 is (in many, but probably not all) and that is for good reason - It has a multi-role strike mission compared to a non nonsense air-dominance fighter in the F-22.

As far as acceleration is concerned here is a good table..As mentioned earlier, as you begin to pile stores on an F-16, it begins to fall behind the F-35

Image

If we examine the F-16’s ‘Combat Max AB’ transonic acceleration data (Ref #11, Table A8-12), and compare it to the F-35A’s newest transonic KPP time (63 seconds) we find the F-35A loaded with two AMRAAMs and two 2KLb JDAMs has better acceleration than the F-16C/D in 20 of the 30 possible weight/drag index combinations shown in the tables (weights from 20K lbs to 41K lbs, and Drag Indexes from 0 to 250). The F-35A KPP is on par with the F-16 in one of the possible F-16C load-outs. At least three of the remaining nine F-16 load-out combinations I would characterize as ‘highly impractical/improbable’ (for those you can have a few hundred pounds of usable fuel, or you can have two AMRAAMs but you cannot have both).Three more F-16 combinations involve simply carrying two more 600 gallon fuel tanks with various degrees of ‘fullness’ along with just two AMRAAMs and no other weapons other than the ever present 20mm cannon.

On the other hand, for 6 of the 20 load-outs where the F-35 KPP performance meets or beats the F-16C, the F-16 can’t even GET to Mach 1.2 (for three combinations the F-16 performance is ONLY subsonic).

In short, even if the F-16 is running on fuel fumes carrying wingtip AMRAAMs and
LANTIRN pods, it can only carry just a little more internal fuel before the F-35A's latest transonic acceleration KPP standard can be said to be ‘better’ than an F-16C Blk50/52 in transonic acceleration.


Its part of a 3-part technical analysis -

http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/201 ... ic_22.html
To me it appears that the US is attempting to use complex electronics, networking, stealth and standoff weapons to render aerodynamic performance irrelevant.
If that were the case you'd see a flying wing, with 2-3 times the weapons load of the F-35 and with about double the F-35's range. You would not have seen a fighter aircraft that goes supersonic, has a 9G requirement (AF), and an AOA requirement of 50 degrees. What people don't like is that the F-35 does not outperform a clean F-16 (which is a rocket ship in that configuration), and its sustained turning performance has not received as much emphasis as the F-16, but that its design favors the instantaneous performance more like the F/A-18. That however, is not the US changing the way of war, but plenty of US based, and non-US based research pointing to a changing nature of close in aerial combat (as highlighted in the 3 papers that I would highly recommend) -

Image

What you are seeing is, and this was clear from the KPP's as well that the F-35 requirements were simply different to the F-16 and reflected what its requirements thought was a changing nature of aerial combat. This wasn't totally out of the wild..there had been a sustained effort to study time compression and quick a2a WVR engagements with HOBS and HMD and both the F-16 and the F-18 families were experimented with post stall maneuvering aided by TVC and other aerodynamic changes. The F-35 was still required to be a 9G fighter, and the requirements were still to be comparable to a loaded F-16 or F-18, the configurations in which they actually see combat. The compromises between performance were however traded with other performance criteria like avionics, sensors, speed, cost, weapons load, number of engines (sustainability), range/payload etc. These design trades are made for every fighter irrespective of its mission. That is why the F-22 has pitch only TVC, has a smaller bomb bay, has a top speed of mach 2 (and not the F-15's top speed).


If you look at acceleration differences between say the F-22 and the F-35, they weren't there because they wanted to favor avionics, they were there because choices were made in the aerodynamic shape, the size of the bays, the number of engines (ONE), and the type of engine (Ratios) that favored a heavier and more diverse payload (compared to the F-22), longer loiter time, and higher subsonic range. This was dictated by mission requirement. The F-35 has a longer subsonic radius than the F-22 since the is needed by a US modern strike fighter..the F-35 also can carry a more diverse payload, has a smaller logistical footprint and is a single engine fighter. The last two directly impact fleet sustainability costs and manpower a point that gains huge relevance when you are planning to buy more than 1500 fighters vs only a few hundred or 500-700 in the original case of the F-22. Similar design trades were also made by the F-16. It was a brilliant dogfighter as long it was kept in that configuration i.e. minimal avionics, no loads..the moment it became useful, i.e. multi-role pilots began to complain that the A was a much better performer..the more it advanced and the more it absorbed as far as capability, the more and more inferior it became compared to the original lightweight dogfighter. In this case, range, range/payload, loiter time, persistence, mission flexibility were all compromised in the original LWF for the absolute in sustained turning and acceleration.

You can make different design decisions and get the F-35 to perform better...loosen the weapons flexibility requirements (2000 lb bombs and stand of missiles internally), switch over to a twin engine setup..add TVC and you can get significantly better performance in many areas at the expense of a poorer fighter compared to what was demanded, and of course higher purchase and sustainability costs that directly translates to the number you can afford to purchase and sustain over its lifetime.

As I said in the lengthy post yesterday, if you look at the F-35 as a strike version of the F-22 you'll get it wrong. It is essentially taking the Adv. Block F-16's adding stealth, and a killer avionics suite to it and retaining the performance while correcting the high AOA performance of the Viper..Its not something that can turn and burn like a clean hotrod that is the F-16 but when it comes to a combat configured F-16 the F-35 is just about there, inferior in certain areas, and superior in others. The just wanted something that had stealth, brought forward the advances made int he ATF in sensors and integration, and wanted an F-16C and F/A-18 like configuration..They got that since that is what they could afford to replace a very large number of F-16C's and F/A-18's in the USAF, USN and USMC. - The original KPP's clearly demonstrated this. But most importantly the F-35 sheds the F-16's LWF heritage in favor of larger sensors, more avionics growth and in that sense it resembles an F-15 or Sukhoi than the original YF16
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

No one has argued that the F-22 is Turkey or a lemon.
Just to add: This is a direct quote from the great Pierre Sprey himself (New Haven Register, 2006). Notice how the man doesn't have a problem with him being called an aircraft designer...

The Air Force's new F/A-22 Raptor is a "turkey" that will prove a dead duck if it's forced to dogfight smaller, more agile, low-tech fighters, according to one of the world's top aircraft designers. Pierre M. Sprey

^ See how an analyst that worked with Boyd and co all of sudden became the one of the world's top aircraft designers. Thats media for you!!
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

From the Indian R&D thread :
PS Did anyone know that the concept of lift fan for the F-35 B was bought from the Russians in their application of that concept in their Yak 141 VTOL fighter?

YAK was paid money to run tests and supply results so that Lockheed and Co, could provide extensive testing results as part of their submission in an attempt to offer proof to risk-mitigation. The Yak used lift-engines, a concept that thanks to YAK's and other's works prior to this Lockheed rejected quite early on. In fact even the USMC was adamant about hot air ingestion issues..McD stuck with this approach and lost the company to boeing because of these very USMC objections. Lockheed's work with YAK had more to do with verifying their design submission especially since both planned to use a similar nozzle, something that P&W had envisioned decades ago (and even tested).

Here's the Vertical Lift System Patent :

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/6729575.html


Russian Swivel Nozzle Designs

A great deal of misinformation has appeared on the Internet regarding the relationship of the Soviet Yak-41 (later Yak-141), NATO reporting name Freestyle, to the X-35 and the rest of the JSF program. The Pratt & Whitney 3BSD nozzle design predates the Russian work. In fact the 3BSD was tested with a real engine almost twenty years before the first flight of the Yak.

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the Soviet Navy wanted a supersonic STOVL fighter to operate from its ski jump equipped carriers. At what point the Yakovlev Design Bureau became aware of the multi-swivel nozzle design is not known, but the Soyuz engine company created its own variant of it. The Yak-41 version of the nozzle, from published pictures, appears to be a three-bearing swivel duct with a significant offset “kink.” The Yak-141 also used two RKBM RD-41 lift engines – an almost identical arrangement to the Convair Model 200 design. The aircraft was also re-labeled as a Yak-141 to imply a production version, but no order for follow-on series came from the Russian Navy.

The Yak-141 was flown at the Paris Airshow in 1991. The flight displays of the Yak were suspended when the heat from the lift engines started to dislodge asphalt from the tarmac. At the 1992 Farnborough show, the Yak was limited to conventional takeoffs and landings with hovers performed 500 feet above the runway to avoid a repeat performance of asphalt damage. But the Yak-141 does deserve credit for being the first jet fighter to fly with a three-bearing swivel nozzle – twenty-five years after it was first designed in the United States.

During the early days of the JAST effort, Lockheed (accompanied by US government officials from the JAST program office) visited the Yakovlev Design Bureau along with several other suppliers of aviation equipment (notably also the Zvezda K-36 ejection seat) to examine the Yakovlev technologies and designs.

Yakovlev was looking for money to keep its VTOL program alive, not having received any orders for a production version of the Yak-141. Lockheed provided a small amount of funding in return for obtaining performance data and limited design data on the Yak-141. US government personnel were allowed to examine the aircraft. However, the 3BSN design was already in place on the X-35 before these visits.

The 3BSD was invented in America in the 1960s, proposed by Convair to the US Navy in the 1970s, first flown by the Russians in the late 1980s, re-engineered from the 1960 Pratt & Whitney design for the X-35 in the 1990s, and put into production for the F-35 in the 2000s. Sometimes a good idea has to wait for the right application and set of circumstances to come along. One moral of this story is not to throw out good work done in the past. It just might be needed later on
The ILFPS was developed through a joint effort (Lockheed, RR, P&W), led by Paul Bevilacqua of Lockheed, who has an extensive lecture on the genesis that I have had the privilege of attending live at Johns Hopkins APL . I have posted links to the video before as well other information on the lift-fan. It is a LIFT FAN, i.e. driven by a clutch mechanism that drives the fan so no hot air coming from the front of the aircraft's propulsion system. The YAK had a lift engine (a pair) and this was something the USMC quite clearly warned, they would reject.

Image

Actually, the YAK-141 bears literally no resemblance to the F-35B outside of the 3BSN, while it does bear remarkable resemblance (propulsion) to the planned Convair-200 that itself paired the traditional engine in the rear with 2 life engines located behind the cockpit. With only a finite number of ways to make STOVL work, it isn't a surprise that those mature aerospace industries and MICs working on the problem since the 50-60s, have found similar approaches in the past. Whether those were P&W's plans for a nozzle in the 60s, or bench tests etc, or for the Convair and YAK submissions in the 60's, 70's and 80's. -

Image

Write up on the Convair-200

http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=10553

Full F-35 Genesis lecture :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-cfy-k_8ew

More here- viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4042&start=3960#p1698821


On the Gripen front, the Gripen is a significant departure from classic SAAB traditions (in terms of an upward trend in foreign components) but there are a lot of areas minus the engine where they could have gone indigenous but chose not to. Even with the engine they could have gone ITAR free if they wished but if I were to guess, I'd guess their choices were made for practicality, exportability and to keep costs down especially with the E version. I believe that early on in the Gripen program they probably thought they had a better working relationship with GE, and since they weren't as export minded then they thought ITAR restrictions were just fine. Later, with the C and E efforts they stuck with the familiarization of using the GE engine. Europe has already moved to a common distributed foundry pool sort of like the trusted foundry program, and so for semi conductors and RF sensors each major aerospace player will likely source from a common pool of centers of excellence. For a while SAAB folks spent years in the US procuring RF applications with Cree etc and I believe SAAB uses a lot of ITAR and ITAR-Free RF components from the two major US players..From my understanding most of the ITAR restricted stuff will now shift to totally European sources, while ITAR-Free stuff will still be sourced from the US for cost reasons.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by shiv »

Watch for 30 seconds from this point (11:59) on the video (posted earlier)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... c2CM#t=719

The IPR for the Yak 141 lift design was bought from the Russians, if the video is not bluffing
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

The video maker has been called out on being wrong on this part of an otherwise quite informative piece (on f-16.net where some folks working on the F-35, and F-16 reside) . As mentioned, there are huge differences with the lift fan approach of Lockheed, and the lift engine approach of Convair in the 60's, and the YAK later on. The lift-engine approach, would have most likely cost lockheed the JSF contract since the operator (Marines in this case) had severe issues with hot air ingestion. The life fan aft of the cockpit on the F-35B is powered by the main engine and does not generate hot air. All of this is explained in its patent holder's video lecture. The part that LMA were probably most interested in was about data on the 3BSN, something that P&W had invented back in the 60's as well for the Convair-200 but that never went past the bench testing. Yak, had a similar nozzle and put into an actual flying aircraft.

Given the affordability requirements for the JSF, it was a smart move to take their lift-fan concept, and 3BSN and de-risk it to a point where such an effort was strategically important to them int he competition. Going to YAK and asking to test and provide data on their similar efforts made a lot of sense and put lockheed in a better position to make the 'our product is more mature' case compared to others. As previously mentioned, McDonell Douglas ignored the USMC's hot air, issue and lost the contract, and with it their company to Boeing.

So the video is wrong, there were no IP exchanges, in fact the patent rests with a lockheed engineer, who led a multi-company team to design the lift-fan system and won the Collier Trophy in doing so. YAK's roles was that of a consultant, and as a partner to test and validate certain lockheed design choices - and to that end they very much provided their testing and design data so that lockheed could validate its choices, and/or make changes based on testing that had been recorded (they had a time to submission deadline). They provided their data, and I'm sure it helped lockheed make their case better. Perhaps without Yak's help, lockheed's proposal would have required a larger leap of faith. Lockheed's official position on the YAK partnership is also posted in my last post. Also it is important to note, that these companies had known of a STOVL fighter for nearly 15-20 year prior to the X-35 first flight. They had teamed up, made acquisitions leading up to that. The US-UK partnership existed on similar efforts much prior to official JSF kick off or even the X plane competition. In fact, this was a rare example where UK and UK industry was allowed to participate in a DARPA run program.
The Pratt & Whitney 3BSD nozzle design predates the Russian work. In fact the 3BSD was tested with a real engine almost twenty years before the first flight of the Yak. During the early days of the JAST effort, Lockheed (accompanied by US government officials from the JAST program office) visited the Yakovlev Design Bureau along with several other suppliers of aviation equipment (notably also the Zvezda K-36 ejection seat) to examine the Yakovlev technologies and designs.

Yakovlev was looking for money to keep its VTOL program alive, not having received any orders for a production version of the Yak-141. Lockheed provided a small amount of funding in return for obtaining performance data and limited design data on the Yak-141. US government personnel were allowed to examine the aircraft. However, the 3BSN design was already in place on the X-35 before these visits.

The 3BSD was invented in America in the 1960s, proposed by Convair to the US Navy in the 1970s, first flown by the Russians in the late 1980s, re-engineered from the 1960 Pratt & Whitney design for the X-35 in the 1990s, and put into production for the F-35 in the 2000s. Sometimes a good idea has to wait for the right application and set of circumstances to come along. One moral of this story is not to throw out good work done in the past. It just might be needed later on
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=137

For Lockheed, the Convair approach would have been easier since there were materials published, and expertise that they could have hired to get it done (they would have had to partner up with Boeing (that owned Convair IP), that at the time was adamant about competing independently). It was something that was even validated by a major US service as a legitimate way to make a STOVL aircraft in the past. Here, they could have retained P&W's 3BSN and gone in with a Convair like 2 engine aft of cockpit approach and the aircraft would have looked (propulsion) very similar to the YAK41. In fact, they could have roped YAK in to provide a 'lessons learned' type of consultancy. Such a design, as mentioned earlier would have ruined their JSF bid, since the USMC, and practically anyone including YAK that had been working on STOVL knew that there would be issues of hot air that would have to be avoided...The pregnant Boeing (called 'monica' ) design would have won had Lockheed stuck to Yak's approach..

One also has to remember that the most design data in STOVL within the US rested with Lockheed's rivals who would have offered absolutely no help to their competitor in de-risking or design validation.

Even on the current 3BSN, Pratt and Whitney stuck very close to its original patented design of the 60's that they had offered to Convair in the 70's. In fact, Pratt's designs worked so well that GE was forced to stick with their nozzle for its own F136 engine, something that cost them because the nozzle has a max. thrust limit (only on the B variant) and GE tried to in a last ditch effort proposed higher thrust for the STOVL variant - to which the JPO asked - Where are the nozzle modifications? ...
Last edited by brar_w on 17 Mar 2016 16:17, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by Lisa »

Lockheed hails progress on hypersonic military aircraft

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/781f6c08-ead6 ... 345c8.html

Lockheed Martin revealed on Tuesday it is on the brink of a technological breakthrough that could lead to the US developing military aircraft that can fly six times the speed of sound. Marillyn Hewson, Lockheed’s chief executive, outlined the proposed hypersonic aircraft as she also disclosed the company was working on a laser weapon that could be used on the battlefield.

At the company’s annual media day, Ms Hewson expressed optimism about future US military budgets following years of cutbacks. She said that lawmakers seemed set to pass an increase in the budget for 2016­17. However, her most eye­catching remarks were about innovation. She said a series of technological advances were on the verge of making possible weapons systems that had been mooted for years but never come to fruition.

A hypersonic aircraft would give US military planners a significant advantage in reaching targets before opponents had time to react. However, military engineers have struggled for decades with so­called scramjet engine technology to power such an aircraft. Fuel burns in a stream of air moving at supersonic speeds inside the engine, but there have been far reaching questions about the technology’s efficiency and stability. “We’re proving a hypersonic aircraft can be produced at an affordable price,” said Ms Hewson. Referring to Lockheed’s F22, the most sophisticated US fighter jet, Ms Hewson said: “We estimate it [the hypersonic aircraft] will cost less than $1bn to develop, build, and fly a demonstrator aircraft the size of an F­22.” The aircraft would be capable of speeds up to six times the speed of sound, or Mach 6. Orlando Carvalho, head of Lockheed’s aeronautics division, said the company had been working on an engine involving scramjet technology for the hypersonic aircraft with AerojetRocketdyne, the rocket manufacturer. He added that given Aerojet Rocketdyne’s engine work and Lockheed’s efforts on materials
for the aircraft, innovation was “much more rapid” at present than in the past. “That said, it’s going to require a significant amount of development work, investment and maturing of the technology,” said Mr Carvalho. Lockheed envisages working on the hypersonic project throughout the 2020s, with aircraft potentially entering service in the 2030s.

Richard Aboulafia, analyst at the Teal Group, said the idea of having hypersonic jets available was “extremely attractive” for military planners. But it was unclear the fundamental problems around scramjet technology had been resolved. Ms Hewson insisted the proposed hypersonic aircraft had produced a “controllable, low­drag, aerodynamic configuration capable of stable operation from take­off… to Mach 6”. Meanwhile, she showed a slide of an experiment involving a laser weapon, where a hole had been burnt in the bonnet of a pick­up truck, disabling its engine. The truck was similar to those used by insurgent groups. Ms Hewson said the challenge with the technology was both to increase the power of the laser and reduce its weight. She also said Lockheed was working on a missile capable of News of the innovation comes as Lockheed reshapes itself. Last year, the company agreed to buy Sikorsky, the helicopter manufacturer.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

IIRC, the JSF lift fan is powered by an axle that that is connected to the front of the jet engine via the main turbo shaft.......there is no separate engine for the lift fan. a piece of high tech tricky business.

The Yak prolly has a separate engine for its lift fan which was a no go for the US. Makes for a bigger, heavier bird.

verdict: different design concept achieving same functionality, ergo lift fan VSTOL.
Last edited by TSJones on 17 Mar 2016 16:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

the problem with hyper sonic as I understand it is that how does one get up to achieving hyper sonic speed where scram jet physics provides the sustainable hyper sonic power? the previous US tests used an ATACAMs rocket engine to get there. once at the correct speed, the rocket dropped off and the scram jet took over.

so the problem is......how to get to sustainable speed without using a throw away rocket engine....... another bit of tricky business.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

For weapons the booster is the best. The biggest drawback of the last effort with the waverider was that they were forced to deal with an existing booster. All team members complained about this and said even before the start of testing that had they been allowed/budgeted a new booster they would have benefited immensely. Now that the waverider is being weaponized, the follow on should include a lot more new, weapon-custom hardware.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by kit »

i suppose hyper sonic weapons and lasers would change a lot of war fighting doctrines .. can Brar ji envision a scenario/ tech development where nuclear weapons can be rendered obsolete ?
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Nuclear weapons won't ever be rendered obsolete because no one nation has access to technology levels that can create a decades of gap between near peer competitors as far as those are concerned. Things like large DEW's up in space, shooting down ascending ICBM's are largely works of fiction and fantasies. The arms control movement alone would do any attempts to even create something like that in the US and for good reason - It would result in tremendous destabalization and actually make those investing in such systems less secure. There is a point to be made at the theater level, especially against a crazy opponent that has limited technology but definitely not against a near peer.

Hypersonics are interesting, and something that have been 10 years away for nearly half a century as the last skunk works boss put it. However, in the US hypersonic research and development is increasing exponentially after years of neglect and low-priority in defense budgets because the concept gives an interesting opportunity to counter Anti Access Area Denial efforts underway in the Pacific. However, from a policy perspective there is also a strong argument against them and against spending the sort of money (taken from other priorities) in a fiscally constrained environment. We get all sorts of claims that 2020 will see hypersonic missiles, or mach 7 russian missiles is just around the corner. Reality is that the process will be much more gradual..The waverer was a success YES, but you still have to create a follow on, weaponize it and solve all the issues dealing with weaponizing something, from guidance, to targeting and sensors. Not easy.

Lockheed is obviously bullish in a high speed aircraft, and hypersonics weapons if not hypersonics crafts altogether. They have to their credit put money and placed a bet on these since they bought one of the few hypersonic wind tunnels in the US recently and are spending a lot of money modernizing it. Lets see how this pans out..its really something the next US President would have to take. Counters to hypersonics are already in the design phase the Red teamer's aren't waiting for a go no go.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by Austin »

Hypersonic Aircraft Are Ongoing Allure for Lockheed Martin

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... rtin[quote]

Lockheed Martin is actively pursuing hypersonic aircraft, estimating that it can build a fighter-sized demonstrator capable of reaching Mach 6 for less than $1 billion. The manufacturer revealed this week that it is advancing multiple platforms that would travel at or beyond hypersonic speed of Mach 5, or five times the speed of sound.

Having achieved “several breakthroughs” under the short-lived, U.S. government-funded HTV-3X Blackswift effort to build a hypersonic test vehicle, Lockheed Martin is now developing “a controllable, low-drag aerodynamic configuration capable of stable operation from takeoff to subsonic, transonic, supersonic and hypersonic [speeds], to Mach 6,” CEO Marillyn Hewson said on March 15. “Most important, we’re proving a hypersonic aircraft can be produced at an affordable price,” she added. “We estimate it will cost less than $1 billion to develop, build and fly a demonstrator aircraft the size of an F-22.”

Hewson’s revelation during the manufacturer’s annual media day in Arlington, Va., revived the SR-72 concept plane it unveiled in 2013 as a successor to the famed Mach 3-capable SR-71 Blackbird reconnaissance aircraft. Working with rocket propulsion manufacturer Aerojet Rocketdyne, Lockheed Martin proposes a “turbine-based combined cycle propulsion” system for the new plane that uses a conventional turbine engine to launch, then converts to a supersonic combustion scramjet engine to reach hypersonic speed.

“Lockheed Martin continues to invest in component technologies and advanced materials needed for hypersonic speeds,” Hewson said. “We know that higher speeds allow quicker response times to incredibly mobile threats and the ability to project strength more rapidly around the globe.”

In a separate briefing, Rob Weiss, general manager of the Skunk Works advanced development unit, said the manufacturer is also eyeing demonstrations under the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) and Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) programs sponsored by the U.S. Air Force and Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa).

The TBG program aims to develop an air-launched, hypersonic boost glide system, in which a rocket launches a payload to high speeds, and the payload then separates from the rocket and glides to its destination. Raytheon and Lockheed Martin were awarded initial contracts under the program, which Darpa announced in 2014.

Following Boeing’s X-51A WaveRider demonstration of a scramjet-powered, hypersonic aircraft that flew at Mach 5 in 2013, HAWC would be an air-launched hypersonic cruise missile with long-range strike capability against time-critical or heavily defended targets, Darpa says. Technologies developed under the program could also apply to reusable hypersonic platforms for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance and space access.

Weiss said he expects Darpa will select contractors for one or both demonstration programs this year, with actual flights beginning around 2018. “When Darpa makes these investments in advancing technologies across the board, there’s always a desire that there’s going to be a requirements pull from the services,” he said, when asked if a full program may result. “The desire is certainly to demonstrate the capability of these hypersonic systems and then look for a pull from the services.”
[/quote]
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

they must have made some serious metallurgy advances. because the wave rider scram jet partially consumed itself if memory serves me right.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

They have always been fascinated by speed..If one looks into their recent past they abandoned their prime status for the new bomber as soon as it appeared that a subsonic aircraft was what the customer/operator was willing to pay for. They have also had the SR72 in the conceptual phase and managed to secure NASA funding to continue work over the last few budget cycles. A look at some of the research papers from some of the recent hires (mid-high level) clearly shows an effort that would help enable hypersonic. Their skunk works shop is possibly the only one in the country that can produce a quick hypersonic prototype for testing...Northrop has little experience of late, and its not an area where they have been competing aggressively outside of sustained supersonic aircraft.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

TR-X Goes Black
Lockheed Martin will formally pitch the Air Force a program to replace the U-2 and Global Hawk in the coming months, Scott Winstead, the company’s strategic business manager, told reporters Tuesday. The aircraft will have low-observable, or stealth features, so previous images of what Lockheed calls the TR-X are obsolete, and the company won’t release new ones, he said. After long analysis, Lockheed determined that USAF will run seriously short of strategic air-breathing reconnaissance capacity and capability starting when the U-2 retires circa 2019, through the Global Hawk’s mid-2030s retirement. The jet would not be stealthy enough to survive in the toughest air defenses, but could be “risked” if a commander deems it necessary, Winstead said. Lockheed determined the “sweet spot” for operations and efficiency is 70,000 feet with one engine, giving the aircraft a 300-mile look over a target country’s borders. The company would re-use the U-2’s GE F118 engine, and sensors and software from the U-2 and Global Hawk to reduce costs, as the fleet transitions to a single-type unmanned platform. Though 77,000 feet was more operationally useful and survivable, “you need two engines to get there,” Winstead said, and the cost caused Lockheed to discard the two-engine option. Existing 45KVA generators—with ample room for growth—would also be used to power laser sensors and radars, and the wingspan would be the same as the Global Hawk’s to avoid USAF having to build new hangars. The jet would be autonomically air-refuelable to extend its mission time to around 40 hours, Winstead reported; longer than either the U-2’s 12-hour maximum or Global Hawk’s 22-hour limit
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

Shortly after WW2 the US believed that nukes delivered by long range bombers would end all wars. That not only led to the development of a whole lot of high flying long range bombers but also needles nosed supersonic fighters to shoot enemy bombers down at high altitude using missiles only. None of this panned out the way it was expected.



......it kept the US MIC going after WW2 ended and provided a lot of jobs.....so it did its mission.

1958 after the launch of sputnik DARPA was created to develop future technologies, coincidentally the last b-52 was made in the early '60's(1962). we haven't made a lot of long range bombers since then.........
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

The bomber renaissance has very much been led by the conventional capability, especially so over the last few decades. In fact, it could be a successfully argued that within the USAF, the institutional support for a nuclear capable LRS-B was minimal at best, and they only added the capability after the policy makers resisted.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Government Investment Needed To Achieve $85M F-35
With three-quarters of industry funding to improve the affordability of the F-35 already committed to projects, Lockheed Martin estimates the savings will reduce aircraft flyaway cost by $1.7 million from production Lot 10 onwards. Additional funds are expected to save another $1 million per aircraft.
But to achieve the stated goal of reducing the flyaway cost by approximately $10 million by the end of 2019, to $85 million for the conventional F-35A, will require the government customer to begin investing in manufacturing improvements beginning in 2017.

Under the Blueprint for Affordability, industry partners Lockheed, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems agreed to invest $170 million over two years. The initiative assumes the government would provide another $300 million over the following three years to get to an $85 million aircraft.

Another $39 million in projects have been identified, for a total of $209 million, which would take per-aircraft savings to approximately $2.8 million beginning with Lot 11. Lockheed says it is “in ongoing discussions” with the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) program office about these additional initiatives, “which could be industry or government investment.”

JSF program executive officer Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan “has talked about continuing the Blueprint For Affordability in the Lot 11 timeframe,” says Jeff Babione, Lockheed’s F-35 program general manager. “We expect him to authorize a similar program.”

Lockheed is under contract for Lot 8 at a price per F-35A of $108 million, including Pratt & Whitney’s F135 engine. A handshake agreement on the next two lots is expected by the end of March, Babione says, with a F-35A price of around $100 million in Lot 9 and below $100 million in Lot 10.

There has been a 57% reduction in cost from Lot 1 to 8, but that is leveling off as budget cuts slow the production ramp-up and the manufacturing learning curve flattens out. Learning curve is a measure of the reduction in time required as technicians become familiar with a task – a curve of 70% means a 30% reduction in manhours with a doubling of production rate.

“Learning curve was the high 60s, now its flattening out in the mid-70s. By Lot 10 and 11 it will be at 80,” Babione says, adding, “It’s an achievement to hold a 70-74% learning curve this far into a program, but now we need to do something different” to keep bringing down cost.

Blueprint projects have already reduced cost by $260,000 per aircraft with Lot 8 now in production, Babione says, and savings are projected to increase to $1.1 million in Lot 9, $1.7 million in Lot 10 and around $2.8 million from Lot 11 onwards once all the industry-funded projects are completed.

Examples of cost reductions provided by Lockheed include:

• Robotic mold-in-place stealth coatings over inlet bumps - $6,000/aircraft for $742,000 invested
• Automated canopy transparency thermoforming - $3,500/aircraft for $666,000 invested
• Closed-volume molding of wing tips and tailplane edges - $10,000/aircraft for $493,000 invested
• Right-sized aluminum bulkhead forgings (F-35A) - $65,000/aircraft for $652,000 invested
•Cryogenic machining to extend tool life - $4,000/aircraft for $119,000 invested
• Laser surface preparation for nut-plate bonding - $15,000/aircraft for $800,000 invested
• Near-net forging for tailhook component (F-35C) - $30,400/aircraft for $298,000 invested
• 3-D printed titanium canopy bowframe – ~$10,000/aircraft for $342,000 invested
• Rudder spar manufacturing improvement – ~$65,000/aircraft for $360,200 invested
• Convert intake chine to machined part – ~$37,000/aircraft for $4.6 million invested
Also, informative exchange by the USMC and USN top most leadership for combat aircraft -

Last edited by brar_w on 19 Mar 2016 22:57, edited 1 time in total.
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Darpa Prepares For Next Step In Hypersonic Weapons


AWIN
Lockheed Martin and other bidders are responding to Darpa solicitations to build a pair of hypersonic weapon demonstrators that would fly in 2018.
Responses are due by early April to two broad area announcements for the Tactical Boost Glide (TBG) and Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) programs, both joint efforts with the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL).

The solicitations are for contracts “that would take us into the demonstration phase to fly vehicles,” says Rob Weiss, executive vice president and general manager of Lockheed’s Skunk Works. Darpa awarded Boeing, Lockheed and Raytheon contracts for earlier work on TBG and HAWC.

TBG is a rocket-boosted hypersonic glide weapon designed for air launch, but also intended to be compatible with the U.S. Navy’s vertical launch system. The weapon is similar to, but smaller than, the HTV-2 hypersonic glider tested unsuccessfully under a previous Darpa program.

TBG will provide substantial range and cross-range maneuver capability, Weiss says. HAWC is a long-range cruise missile that will also be air-launched and rocket boosted, but will then cruise at hypersonic speed on a hydrocarbon-fueled scramjet engine.

HAWC is a follow-on to AFRL’s Boeing X-51 WaveRider scramjet engine demonstrator. The hydrocarbon scramjet in the X-51 was developed by Pratt & Whitney, later Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne and now Aerojet Rocketdyne, which Weiss says is providing the engine for Lockheed’s proposal.

Weiss says the Skunk Works is continuing internal and government-funded research on a reusable hypersonic vehicle able to accelerate from standstill on a runway to beyond Mach 6. Work on the “SR-72” concept was started under Darpa’s HTV-3X and canceled Blackswift programs.

“We are producing a controllable, low-drag, stable configuration than can fly from 0 kt. to Mach 6 and proving it can be produced affordably – less than $1 billion to develop, build and fly an F-22-size demonstrator,” Lockheed Martin CEO Marillyn Hewson says.

The unmanned vehicle would launch without a booster using turbine-based combined-cycle (TBCC) propulsion teaming a turbojet and ramjet/scramjet. “Work is more in IRAD [independent R&D] than government money at this stage,” Weiss says, but there is potential for another Darpa program.

Darpa’s fiscal 2017 budget request includes funds to start the Advanced Full-Range Engine project to demonstrate the transition from turbojet to dual-mode ramjet for a TBCC engine. AFRE appears to pick up where Darpa’s Mode Transition project left off when it was stopped in fiscal 2011.
Janes has an analysis out that digs a littler deeper into these projects but has little 'new' information to offer about any of the known or lesser known international projects they profiled..I'll post a synopsis on that analysis a bit later in the international thread...
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

Mach 4 Test Results of a Dual-Flowpath, Turbine Based
Combined Cycle Inlet

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi. ... 055388.pdf


in my view, a scram jet will still have to take over at some point if they wanna go faster than mach 4.......

real nice work though..... :)

my primary MOS was avionics but my secondary MOS was jet engine mechanic so I am definitely a shade tree mechanic in that regard...... :D
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

From the recent Janes write up Hypersonic hustle
The US Department of Defense (DoD) and other US government agencies are developing hypersonic technology for two short-term and one long-term goal. The two near-term goals are hypersonic weapons that are expected to mature in the early 2020s and unmanned surveillance aircraft in the late 2020s or early 2030s, according to Robert Mercier, the deputy for technology in the high-speed systems division at the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL), with hypersonic vehicles to follow in the longer-term.

"Air-breathing access to space is a much longer-term goal," he said during a 14 January 2016 interview with IHS Jane's . "Hypersonic space vehicles are unlikely to come to fruition before the 2050s." Mercier added that the general development strategy is to start small with weapons and to then scale up to aircraft and space vehicles as the technology and materials mature.

Spiro Lekoudis, the DoD's director of weapons systems, acquisition, technology and logistics, confirmed that hypersonic weapons will likely be the first acquisition programme to emerge from the technology development being conducted throughout the department and its partner agencies. "An aircraft is certainly on a much longer timeline than a weapon," he told IHS Jane's during a 9 January interview. The US Air Force (USAF) is expected to conduct a demonstration of its High Speed Strike Weapon (HSSW) - a joint development with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) - around 2020 [tests begin in 2018], at which point the Pentagon will decide on how best to transition the technology into a hypersonic missile acquisition programme, Lekoudis noted.

There are two main efforts feeding the HSSW demonstration, said Bill Gillard, an AFRL plans and programmes engineer. The first is the Tactical Boost-Glide (TBG) programme being developed by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, and second is the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) programme led by Boeing.

The AFRL, meanwhile, is working on additional basic research to augment the DARPA and USAF projects, Gillard noted. For example, the reusable aircraft concept for hypersonics (REACH) supports several small- and medium-scale scramjet experiments, in addition to basic materials research. "Our objective is to advance the knowledge base and to develop and demonstrate technology that others can take to create new systems," he said. The AFRL's continued work on basic research to improve ceramic matrix composites and other high-temperature materials is critical to the design of future hypersonic vehicles.

The AFRL and other Pentagon laboratories are working hard on two key aspects of future hypersonic vehicles: reusability and increasing scale. "Across [the] AFRL, there is a loose confederation of efforts helping along reusability and larger scale of hypersonic systems," said Gillard. "We have focused all these technologies on things like X-51, and REACH will be another one."

A 2013 demonstration of the Boeing X-51A WaveRider is the basis for the USAF's plans to weaponise hypersonic vehicles, officials told IHS Jane's . "We're taking lessons learned from X-51 and using them in development of HSSW," John Leugers, the principal aerospace engineer at the AFRL munitions directorate, told IHS Jane's on 15 May 2015.

While developing the X-51, various agencies were also working on larger, 10x engines - meaning that they processed 10 times the air of the X-51 engine. "Those engines would be ideally suited for things like high-speed ISR [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] platforms and atmospheric cruisers," said Gillard. "And then eventually our plan is to go to even larger to 100 times, which would allow for air-breathing access to space."

The AFRL is also studying the possibility of integrating a scramjet with a high-speed turbine engine or rocket to have efficient propulsion over a large range of mach numbers. "We're looking at all kinds of ways to make scramjet engines operate more efficiently," he said." The environment they fly in is not benign."

On 1 May 2013, the X-51A performed a successful flight on its fourth test. The vehicle detached from a B-52H and was powered to Mach 4.8 by the booster rocket. It separated from the booster and ignited its own engine. The X-51A then accelerated to Mach 5.1 and flew for 210 seconds until it ran out of fuel. The USAF collected telemetry data for 370 seconds of flight. Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne division developed the engine for the WaveRider. The division has since been sold to Aerojet, which continues to conduct work in hypersonic propulsion but declined to comment for this article.

Previously, Lockheed Martin worked with DARPA on an early hypersonic vehicle effort, the Falcon Hypersonic Technology Vehicle-2 concept, from 2003 to 2011. The Minotaur IV light rocket was the booster for the vehicles, which were launched out of Vandenberg Air Force Base, California. HTV-2's inaugural flight in 2010 collected data that demonstrated advances in high lift-to-drag aerodynamics; high temperature materials; thermal protection systems; autonomous flight safety systems; and advanced guidance, navigation, and control for long-duration hypersonic flight.

The two demonstration flights were successfully launched on 22 April 2010 and 11 August 2011, but both times the Falcon vehicles lost contact with control several minutes into their planned Mach 20 flight, according to DARPA statements released at the time.

The X-51A programme results are now feeding into HSSW. Ordnance and a guidance system are under development via two demonstration programmes: HAWC and TBG. DARPA in April 2014 awarded Raytheon and Lockheed Martin contracts to continue development of the TBG programme. The companies received deals worth up to USD20 million and USD24 million, respectively, according to a contract announcement. Boeing, meanwhile, is developing HAWC. The company declined to comment on the value of its contract for the work or when it was awarded, as did DARPA.

The goal of both TBG and HAWC is to accelerate a weapon to Mach 5 or greater and to allow it to glide to its target. Such weapons have to be highly heat-resistant and manoeuvrable. They could ultimately fly at altitudes of nearly 200,000 ft. The warhead under development for a hypersonic missile is in the 250 lb class, about the size of a Small Diameter Bomb (SDB), officials said.

While the X-51A successfully demonstrated integration of an air vehicle and a hypersonic propulsion system, the focus with TBG and HAWC will be on advanced guidance and control - something that failed to fully materialise with Falcon or WaveRider. Seeker subsystems have been under development at various USAF munitions laboratories to further the capability. A March 2014 broad agency announcement (BAA) explained that TBG is attempting to develop technologies for an air-launched, tactical-range hypersonic boost-glide system and will end with a flight demonstration by 2020.

"The programme will address the system and technology issues required to enable development of a hypersonic boost-glide system considering: vehicle concepts possessing the required aerodynamic and aerothermal performance; controllability and robustness for a wide operational envelope; the system attributes and subsystems required to be effective in relevant operational environments; and approaches to reducing cost and improving affordability for both the demonstration system and future operational systems," the announcement stated. The air vehicle for TBG is a warhead design that separates from a booster to glides at speeds up to Mach 10 or greater.

Meanwhile, HAWC, a follow-on to X-51A, will demonstrate a hypersonic cruise missile powered by a scramjet engine at slightly lower speeds - around Mach 5 and above. "HAWC technologies could... extend to future reusable hypersonic air platforms for applications such as ISR and space access," according to DARPA. Neither DARPA nor prime contractor Boeing was willing to answer additional questions about the programme.
Recently, the AFRL boss revealed that the near term post X-51 goal for Hypersonic R&D and program related funding was approximately $1.6 Billion dollar between FY16 and FY20.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

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One the 'known' competitors to the upgraded Gallium Nitride, Patriot radar above. AN/TPS-80. At a recent event in Huntsville, AL, Northrop revealed that they plan on retaining the same processors, antenna, but changing the generator and power supply to move from the 60-70Kw USMC requirement, towards a 100+Kw potential US Army requirement for a AMD radar. The first GaN AN/TPS-80 (earlier test articles had been GaAs) was handed over to the USMC for testing late last year. This makes two potential radars (Raytheon GAN, and this radar) in the S/C-Band with Lockheed still clinging on to the X-band GaN sensor that it is most likely prototyping at the moment (probably a GaN'ification of the MEADS sensor with Qorvo components)..Yet another new radar may enter the field in the USAF's 3DELR..if the protest is upheld this could be a brand-new GaN C band radar from Raytheon (no recycled components from patriot).

Since the US Army has categorically rejected a rotating array over the last few decades (when patriot upgrades, and/or replacement have been discussed) it would be interesting to see what approach Northrop and Lockheed take. The current AN/TPS-80 rotates for 360 degree coverage since that was a Marines requirement, but they would most likely adopt a fixed array with supplemental coverage for a patriot replacement program. Raytheon has gone in for this defensive 360 degree coverage, no doubt supplemented by X-band AN/MPQ-64's, having earlier envisioned equally sized front and rear panels but choosing not to go down the path since it would have meant a larger setup that would have failed to meet the mobility and logistical footprint requirements of the Patriot..For its part the US Army in its solicitation for proposals has been open to S, C, X and even L band radars and in the past they have also been open about supplementing the main sensor with a low frequency sensor, such as the Lockheed UHF AESA (MEADS), or the Raytheon airborne VHF AESA (JLENS) both of which are in advanced developmental testing.

Image

Image



MEADS MFCR - X-Band GaA, which Lockheed would have to switch over to GaN and americanize (the current one uses Lockheed built back end, with European GaA T/R modules ). One important thing to note that there hasn't been a successful ground radar program since 2008 or 09 that hasn't involved the winning team choosing GaN.

Image
Last edited by brar_w on 21 Mar 2016 20:46, edited 2 times in total.
Austin
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by Austin »

brar_w wrote:From the recent Janes write up Hypersonic hustle
The US Department of Defense (DoD) and other US government agencies are developing hypersonic technology for two short-term and one long-term goal. The two near-term goals are hypersonic weapons that are expected to mature in the early 2020s and unmanned surveillance aircraft in the late 2020s or early 2030s, according to Robert Mercier, the deputy for technology in the high-speed systems division at the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL), with hypersonic vehicles to follow in the longer-term.

"Air-breathing access to space is a much longer-term goal," he said during a 14 January 2016 interview with IHS Jane's . "Hypersonic space vehicles are unlikely to come to fruition before the 2050s." Mercier added that the general development strategy is to start small with weapons and to then scale up to aircraft and space vehicles as the technology and materials mature.

Spiro Lekoudis, the DoD's director of weapons systems, acquisition, technology and logistics, confirmed that hypersonic weapons will likely be the first acquisition programme to emerge from the technology development being conducted throughout the department and its partner agencies. "An aircraft is certainly on a much longer timeline than a weapon," he told IHS Jane's during a 9 January interview. The US Air Force (USAF) is expected to conduct a demonstration of its High Speed Strike Weapon (HSSW) - a joint development with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) - around 2020 [tests begin in 2018], at which point the Pentagon will decide on how best to transition the technology into a hypersonic missile acquisition programme, Lekoudis noted.

There are two main efforts feeding the HSSW demonstration, said Bill Gillard, an AFRL plans and programmes engineer. The first is the Tactical Boost-Glide (TBG) programme being developed by Lockheed Martin and Raytheon, and second is the Hypersonic Air-breathing Weapon Concept (HAWC) programme led by Boeing.

The AFRL, meanwhile, is working on additional basic research to augment the DARPA and USAF projects, Gillard noted. For example, the reusable aircraft concept for hypersonics (REACH) supports several small- and medium-scale scramjet experiments, in addition to basic materials research. "Our objective is to advance the knowledge base and to develop and demonstrate technology that others can take to create new systems," he said. The AFRL's continued work on basic research to improve ceramic matrix composites and other high-temperature materials is critical to the design of future hypersonic vehicles.

The AFRL and other Pentagon laboratories are working hard on two key aspects of future hypersonic vehicles: reusability and increasing scale. "Across [the] AFRL, there is a loose confederation of efforts helping along reusability and larger scale of hypersonic systems," said Gillard. "We have focused all these technologies on things like X-51, and REACH will be another one."

A 2013 demonstration of the Boeing X-51A WaveRider is the basis for the USAF's plans to weaponise hypersonic vehicles, officials told IHS Jane's . "We're taking lessons learned from X-51 and using them in development of HSSW," John Leugers, the principal aerospace engineer at the AFRL munitions directorate, told IHS Jane's on 15 May 2015.

While developing the X-51, various agencies were also working on larger, 10x engines - meaning that they processed 10 times the air of the X-51 engine. "Those engines would be ideally suited for things like high-speed ISR [intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance] platforms and atmospheric cruisers," said Gillard. "And then eventually our plan is to go to even larger to 100 times, which would allow for air-breathing access to space."

The AFRL is also studying the possibility of integrating a scramjet with a high-speed turbine engine or rocket to have efficient propulsion over a large range of mach numbers. "We're looking at all kinds of ways to make scramjet engines operate more efficiently," he said." The environment they fly in is not benign."

On 1 May 2013, the X-51A performed a successful flight on its fourth test. The vehicle detached from a B-52H and was powered to Mach 4.8 by the booster rocket. It separated from the booster and ignited its own engine. The X-51A then accelerated to Mach 5.1 and flew for 210 seconds until it ran out of fuel. The USAF collected telemetry data for 370 seconds of flight. Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne division developed the engine for the WaveRider. The division has since been sold to Aerojet, which continues to conduct work in hypersonic propulsion but declined to comment for this article.

Previously, Lockheed Martin worked with DARPA on an early hypersonic vehicle effort, the Falcon Hypersonic Technology Vehicle-2 concept, from 2003 to 2011. The Minotaur IV light rocket was the booster for the vehicles, which were launched out of Vandenberg Air Force Base, California. HTV-2's inaugural flight in 2010 collected data that demonstrated advances in high lift-to-drag aerodynamics; high temperature materials; thermal protection systems; autonomous flight safety systems; and advanced guidance, navigation, and control for long-duration hypersonic flight.

The two demonstration flights were successfully launched on 22 April 2010 and 11 August 2011, but both times the Falcon vehicles lost contact with control several minutes into their planned Mach 20 flight, according to DARPA statements released at the time.

The X-51A programme results are now feeding into HSSW. Ordnance and a guidance system are under development via two demonstration programmes: HAWC and TBG. DARPA in April 2014 awarded Raytheon and Lockheed Martin contracts to continue development of the TBG programme. The companies received deals worth up to USD20 million and USD24 million, respectively, according to a contract announcement. Boeing, meanwhile, is developing HAWC. The company declined to comment on the value of its contract for the work or when it was awarded, as did DARPA.

The goal of both TBG and HAWC is to accelerate a weapon to Mach 5 or greater and to allow it to glide to its target. Such weapons have to be highly heat-resistant and manoeuvrable. They could ultimately fly at altitudes of nearly 200,000 ft. The warhead under development for a hypersonic missile is in the 250 lb class, about the size of a Small Diameter Bomb (SDB), officials said.

While the X-51A successfully demonstrated integration of an air vehicle and a hypersonic propulsion system, the focus with TBG and HAWC will be on advanced guidance and control - something that failed to fully materialise with Falcon or WaveRider. Seeker subsystems have been under development at various USAF munitions laboratories to further the capability. A March 2014 broad agency announcement (BAA) explained that TBG is attempting to develop technologies for an air-launched, tactical-range hypersonic boost-glide system and will end with a flight demonstration by 2020.

"The programme will address the system and technology issues required to enable development of a hypersonic boost-glide system considering: vehicle concepts possessing the required aerodynamic and aerothermal performance; controllability and robustness for a wide operational envelope; the system attributes and subsystems required to be effective in relevant operational environments; and approaches to reducing cost and improving affordability for both the demonstration system and future operational systems," the announcement stated. The air vehicle for TBG is a warhead design that separates from a booster to glides at speeds up to Mach 10 or greater.

Meanwhile, HAWC, a follow-on to X-51A, will demonstrate a hypersonic cruise missile powered by a scramjet engine at slightly lower speeds - around Mach 5 and above. "HAWC technologies could... extend to future reusable hypersonic air platforms for applications such as ISR and space access," according to DARPA. Neither DARPA nor prime contractor Boeing was willing to answer additional questions about the programme.
.
brar can you post the full hypersonic article from Janes if you have access to paid site ? Thank You
brar_w
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

kit wrote:@ Brar .. isnt the US airforce now looking at hard kill options to defeat the future Russian and Chinese AAM s ? Quite probably the defensive ECCMs and flares may not live to its potential !
Against modern IR missiles, a combination of DIRCM and Flares has been the path forward for many years. They are slowly getting there. Not only the US but a lot many other nations. Directed countermeasures are already on helos and are contracted for as podded support packages for 4th generation and the F-35 has provisions for directed (DIRCM) systems since the EODAS has both the quality and processing power to handle targeting.I've linked to Northrop's THnDR which is an internally flush mounted DIRCM for the F-35.

Additionally, for non maneuvering and maneuvering aircraft load outs they are looking at actual kinetic solutions through a SACM which would be a small, high load air-air missile, also capable of targeting missiles and SAM's.

Image

http://www.janes.com/article/57493/rayt ... -solutions

There is some confusion regarding SACM as different briefings at different AFA events on Florida have shown conflicting requirements (The CUDA proposal from lockheed, which is now being clubbed as SACM was actually not a short ranged weapon at all, but a medium ranged one). Some material claims it to be a hard kill weapon against missiles while others a short ranged weapon against aircraft and missiles. Regardless, something of the sort would be required for both offensive-defensive missions and to increase magazine depth particularly in the case of unmanned aircraft that will be increasingly limited just by magazine depth as opposed to loiter/persistence. My understanding of the SACM concept is that its an MLHTK like version for air-air load outs and that makes a lot more sense.

I was rather disappointed that they didn't look at the IFPC Inc. 2 and weaponize it for air-air. A jazzed up MHTK would allow for huge loads and possibly multiple interceptors per incoming SAM or air-air missile.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/d ... ochure.pdf

Ultimately the first use of an actual high power (50-100Kw) DEW would be to first and foremost shoot down incoming missiles (Air to Air or SAM's) before being an offensive weapon. A podded 30-50KW directed energy weapon, will be debuted on an F-15E in 2020.

It is the maturation of these programs that is most likely holding up an E-3 AWACS replacement. You cant move forward with a platform or a sensor, until you have solved the access issue in areas where you wish to operate..
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

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First USN NIF--CA F-35 pre-integration test scheduled for October 2016. Candidates include launching an SM6 OTH cued by an F-35 looped through an E-2D back to the AEGIS sensor, or some F-35--E2D--EA-18G cooperative targeting against an actual range target.

EDIT: Latest from GAO is that the acquisition cost estimates of the JSF for the 3 US services has dropped by $12 Billion without any drop in the projected number of aircraft, or logistics acquired. This is in a series of adjustments that the GAO has made over the last many years and since the baseline each and every one of these adjustments has been lower than initial estimates. The new number is $379 Billion vs the last estimate of $391 Billion. At one time, these estimates were hovering around the mid 400's. I suspect the Axe's of the world are now working hard on articles calling for Auditors and bean counters to be fired since they over-estimated acquisition cost by $12 Billion :wink:
The Pentagon’s most recent estimate for the F-35 joint strike fighter’s total acquisition cost shows a drop of $12.1 billion since 2014, according to a government watchdog.

As of March 2016, the Pentagon’s estimate for the total acquisition cost of the F-35 program is $379 billion, down from $391 billion projected in 2014, the Government Accountability Office’s Michael Sullivan noted in his March 23 written testimony before the House Armed Services subcommittee on tactical air and land forces. This includes research, development, test and evaluation (RDT&E), procurement and military construction funds.
So around $155 Million per aircraft to design, develop, test, acquire and provide unique construction and/or upgrade infrastructure in support of the JSF.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Potential Third Offset investment that would most likely involve the QF-16 and the F-35. What this is essentially leading up to is both legacy-modern teaming but 5th to 5th and 5th to sixth teaming. Lockheed had proposed an unmanned version of the F-35 as part of the Future development plans many years ago, and Boeing has been pushing an optionally maned sixth generation fighter for some years now as well. It is no secret that Manned-Unmanned collaboration/Teaming has been identified as an important capability for future air-superiority and now we are beginning to see some of the activity to take those concepts out from labs and allow them to war-game them before they frame requirements for a late 2020's or early 2030's fighter capabilities (upgrades or new).

AFRL searches for fighter capable platform for Loyal Wingman testbed
The Air Force Research Laboratory is seeking a platform with fighter capabilities to host its autonomous Loyal Wingman technologies, Kris Kearns, autonomy lead at AFRL, told Inside the Air Force.

The Loyal Wingman program would team a manned fifth-generation fighter with an unmanned aircraft to demonstrate how autonomy could enhance operations and capabilities in denied and contested environments. The wingman would multiply the manned pilot's capabilities without increasing the pilot's workload and unlike a remotely piloted aircraft, the unmanned vehicle would not be tethered to a ground station, according to a March 18 request for information posted on Federal Business Opportunities. The wingman could perform kinetic strikes, but those decisions would come from the piloted vehicle, Kearns, autonomy lead at AFRL, said in a March 23 interview with ITAF.

AFRL is seeking both test vehicles with a man in the cockpit to host the Loyal Wingman payload, as well as unmanned vehicles with fighter capabilities for future tests, Kearns said. AFRL has already demonstrated the capability on an F-16, but the service must let AFRL know whether the F-16 would be the vehicle of choice for the Loyal Wingman program or if there is a different development approach, she said.

"The RFI we put out is to try to get our arms around what are the test assets that industry has," she said. "Because what we know is that industry, through either other government programs or on their own, have created vehicles to start testing out autonomy type algorithms."

AFRL has confined the scope of its search to a fighter capable platform since the Loyal Wingman will fly with a fifth-generation fighter, which could include the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Traditional RPAs, such as Predators or Reapers, do not maneuver or fly fast enough to qualify as suitable teammates for fighter jets, Kearns said.

"To consider a vehicle that can't even fly at a third of the speed would not provide a lot of capability for teaming," she said. "Think a baseline of what an F-16 can do . . . it needs to have similar characteristics to be able fly in a similar kind of manner as a fighter."

The current RFI will help define the program's plan, which AFRL will work on throughout the summer. That would set up contracts beginning in fiscal year 2018 and the program would likely launch in early FY-18, Kearns said.

Incremental flight test buildup activities, which will test various parts rather than a fully integrated technology set, may be conducted with a surrogate UAV between FY-19 and FY-21, Kearns said. But the capstone flight activity in FY-22, which will demonstrate manned-unmanned teaming through a ground strike mission in a contested environment, must be conducted with an unmanned wingman, according to the RFI.

The capstone demonstration and incremental flight tests will show the Loyal Wingman is able to execute mission tasks, respond to changes in operational environments and follow mission-planned contracts, the RFI states. Kearns anticipates the first test will focus on collision avoidance, which the Air Force has demonstrated on manned platforms but has yet to prove on a UAV. In both ground collision and air collision demonstrations, the pilot in the cockpit was able to re-engage flight after the system's safety maneuver responded, Kearns said, but AFRL must solve how the system will engage flight autonomously.

The demonstrations will build on progress that AFRL has made on autonomous research, according to the RFI. In addition to its F-16 work with the Air Force's pilot training school, AFRL is developing machine intelligence algorithms and performing data analysis, Kearns said. Under Defense Department funding, the laboratory has worked with the Navy and Army to examine how intelligent systems negotiate and provide feedback.

Under the Loyal Wingman program, AFRL is developing a government-owned, open systems architecture for an autonomous system that would be easily transferred between air vehicles. The unit would host a suite of algorithms on a fighter, which would hold high-level reasoning capabilities and could execute commands from the pilot, the RFI states. Kearns characterized those capabilities as "external environment reasoning," such as the ability to change a flight path to avoid bad weather. The wingman must also be able to reason with internal faults that could affect its ability to continue flying the mission, she said.

"Most of the algorithms that we have running on our aircraft today are built with the assumption that there's a pilot there to override or make a decision at some time," Kearns said. "So the challenge becomes, we don't want to increase the pilot's workload of that manned vehicle, so what decisions does that unmanned system have to make and what decisions should it not be making, should it be requesting guidance from the pilot?"
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Another garbage in garbage out - opinion peice from the restauranteur turned self-confessed aerospace expert

Just Because Lockheed Says They Can Build A Mach 6 Spy Plane Doesn't Mean We Need One

Forgot to mention that behind every Unsolicited proposal is an operator driven, classified, needs assessment that is shared with industry on a regular basis, based on which the industry invests its own money to offer 'potential' solution to based on the challenges and operational requirements shared by the operator. TR seems to think Lockheed engineers were sitting in a room, had some interest in hypersonic aircraft, and said, "hey lets put a few million of the company's money into this, and lets try to sell it to the USAF/CIA". The IRAD (Internal R&D) track that most corporations take is one that will benefit their competitiveness given the customer-furnished, threat outlook shared with them both in a classified and unclassified fashion. They don't just sit in a room and think of cool ideas to sell. Lockheed has had so much success in unsolicited offers because they had a shop that could, on a budget de-risk, and validate its proposals faster, cheaper, and with better results than its peers. Kelly built his career doing just that i.e. taking ideas, investing company resources to validate them and offering lower-risk unsolicited offers to the customer.

But TR doesn't stop at just that. He does a back of a napkin Analysis of Alternatives, and even comes up with a result and claims a different solution may work :D
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

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Pentagon revealing new disruptive capabilities in signal to Russia, China, U.S. allies
The Pentagon is revealing a sample of new disruptive combat capabilities -- all derived since 2012 from utilizing existing weapon systems in innovative ways -- as part of a campaign to bolster conventional deterrence by signaling Russia and China, as well as American allies, that the U.S. military has a growing "strategic surprise" portfolio of never-before-seen means to strike and defend.

One aim of the effort -- which involves revealing formerly classified projects led by the Strategic Capabilities Office in concert with Army, Navy and Air Force weapon systems program offices -- is to change the calculus of potential American adversaries who might, after observing U.S. military operations over the last two decades, conclude they've figured a way to beat the United States.

"We're starting to share a few of these projects publicly so that we can show the world that we can change quickly and we can do things differently and regaining advantage does not have to be a 14-year technology development cycle," Will Roper, Strategic Capabilities Office director, said in a March 28 interview with reporters, referring to a time frame often allocated to design and field a new weapon. "So we'd like a taste of this to be outside, but certainly not our best capabilities."

Founded in August 2012 by then-Deputy Defense Secretary Ash Carter, the SCO has worked on between 15 to 18 projects -- "five or six a year," according to Roper -- with roughly one-third of these already transitioned to programs of record, which means the sponsoring service has formally adopted the project and funded it going forward.

The revealed SCO projects include giving the Navy's Standard Missile-6 -- originally designed for defense -- an offensive capability; a missile defense-variant of a high-velocity munition fired from artillery-size tubes paired with ground variant of fighter aircraft radar; a version of the Navy's MK-48 torpedo with improved propulsion; an "Arsenal Plane" that could ferry huge weapons payloads to standoff ranges and work with F-35 and F-22 aircraft for strike assignments; swarming micro-unmanned aerial vehicles dropped from fighter aircraft for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance missions; and augmenting the targeting capability of precision munitions with commercially available, phone-camera technology.

The shop, six government employees supported by 20 contractors, has three approaches to crafting new capabilities, according to Roper: repurposing existing weapon systems; linking existing weapon systems together to create new effects; and finding novel approaches to integrate commercial technology into existing weapons to produce significant combat improvement.

Roper likens SCO's mission to taking the playbook of a dynastic football or basketball team and fashioning new trick plays in order to undermine an opponent's confidence in the ability to correctly read -- based on watching past game films -- what the championship team is going to do.

"We've found that most of the systems we have today can be changed -- we can do new things," Roper said. "A lot of the things we're keeping protected, we're keeping classified because the primary goal is to have trick plays behind the door that we can use to win a conflict if we need to by taking back the element of surprise."

Why has the Defense Department never had an organization with such a mission before?

"The reason there hasn't been a SCO heretofore, in my opinion, is that this scenario we're in, where a sole superpower has been running the same playbook with the world watching has really never existed before," Roper said. "So we've never had to have a group of people trying to architect a new playbook out of stuff we had."

Another aim of going public is a hope to benefit from a wider array of potential project ideas. Last September the SCO hosted its first industry day and plans soon to publish a solicitation formally inviting project proposals.

"We're looking at near-term systems," Roper said of the message for industry in the forthcoming broad area announcement. "We're looking for unusual applications. We're looking for things we can put our hands on today, that we can test today to meet a strategic aspect of a capability. Does it create doubt, does it impose cost?"

The SCO works closely with combatant commanders and service chiefs to identify high-priority needs, Roper said. U.S. Pacific and European commands both have resident SCO offices that link the Washington team to the needs of leaders in these regions. While the SCO is effectively fed requirements from the field, Roper said the SCO pitches project ideas to service chiefs annually during "special topics" meetings. It was during such a meeting last year with the Air Force that the Arsenal Plane concept was launched, Roper said.

Around January each year, the SCO identifies what it believes are the five or six best ideas and develops them as new budget proposals that are submitted -- like other Pentagon projects -- for review by the Office of the Secretary of Defense and the cost assessment and program evaluation office. Unlike most Defense Department projects with a dedicated budget line for prototyping, the SCO's annual spending request does not include placeholder amounts for future projects.

"A very unusual aspect of SCO is there is no out-year funding for us," Roper said. "We are only funded by getting new projects through that fall [budget review] cycle. That means if we quit producing new projects, we'll eventually evaporate and go away. That creates a healthy sense of urgency in maintaining the creative juices in the office."

Each SCO project takes between three to four years to execute, so the SCO budget accounts for such funding tails in the Pentagon's future years defense plan.

"Every program that we put in is an operational prototype that results in a set of risks we reduce, that we agree on with a service partner," he said. "We rarely will take anything beyond four years. Three to four years; we really like two-year development. That's our target spot. What's supposed to happen is that at the end, we've built a full-up system, done an end-to-end test in an operational environment; and we can use that to estimate the cost and training impacts."

The SCO's prototyping budget has grown from $130 million in FY-14 to $170 million in FY-15, and $469 million in FY-16. The office is currently seeking $844 million for prototyping in FY-17.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

Gremlins Takes Flight to Provide Air-Recoverable Unmanned Air Systems
DARPA has awarded Phase 1 contracts for its Gremlins program, which seeks to develop innovative technologies and systems enabling aircraft to launch volleys of low-cost, reusable unmanned air systems (UASs) and safely and reliably retrieve them in mid-air. Such systems, or “gremlins,” would be deployed with a mixture of mission payloads capable of generating a variety of effects in a distributed and coordinated manner, providing U.S. forces with improved operational flexibility at a lower cost than is possible with conventional, monolithic platforms. The Phase 1 contracts have been awarded to four teams whose proposals cover a spectrum of technical approaches to this challenging mission. The teams are led by:

Composite Engineering, Inc. (Roseville, Calif.)
Dynetics, Inc. (Huntsville, Ala.)
General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Inc. (San Diego, Calif.)
Lockheed Martin Corporation (Dallas, Tex.)

“We’ve assembled a motivated group of researchers and developers that we believe could make significant progress toward Gremlins’ vision of delivering distributed airborne capabilities in a robust, responsive and affordable manner,” said Dan Patt, DARPA program manager. “These teams are exploring different, innovative approaches toward achieving this goal and are rolling up their sleeves for the hard work ahead.”

Phase 1 of the Gremlins program is designed to pave the way for a proof-of-concept flight demonstration that would validate an air recovery concept of multiple gremlins. The program plans to explore numerous technical areas, including:

Launch and recovery techniques, equipment and aircraft integration concepts
Low-cost, limited-life airframe designs that leverage existing technology and require only modest modifications to current aircraft
High-fidelity analysis, precision digital flight control, relative navigation and station keeping
Named for the imaginary, mischievous imps that became the good luck charms of many British pilots during World War II, the program envisions launching groups of UASs from existing large aircraft such as bombers or transport aircraft—as well as from fighters and other small, fixed-wing platforms—while those planes are out of range of adversary defenses. When the gremlins complete their mission, a C-130 transport aircraft would retrieve them in the air and carry them home, where ground crews would prepare them for their next use within 24 hours.

The gremlins’ expected lifetime of about 20 uses could provide significant cost advantages over expendable systems by reducing payload and airframe costs and by having lower mission and maintenance costs than conventional platforms, which are designed to operate for decades.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by TSJones »

DoD announces new fabric dvelopment partnership.....

http://www.defense.gov/News-Article-Vie ... hear-sense

So what, you say? well grok this.........
“This is a pioneering field combining fibers and yarns with … flexible integrated circuits, LEDs, solar cells, electronic sensors and other capabilities to create fabrics and cloths that can see, hear, sense, communicate, store energy, regulate temperature, monitor health, change color and much more,” the secretary added.

The department is making a $75 million investment that has been matched more than three times over with more than $240 million dollars in contributions from public- and private-sector partners, he said.

Revolutionary Textiles

Revolutionary fibers and textiles have enormous potential for the defense mission, Carter added, noting that lightweight sensors woven into the nylon of parachutes will be able to catch small tears that might otherwise expand in midair and risk paratroopers’ lives.

Carter on Revolutionary Fibers Defense Secretary Ash Carter describes how revolutionary fibers and textiles can have enormous potential for the defense mission.
Uniforms with electronics embedded in their fibers will detect potential chemical and radiological agents, help power networked devices that troops carry into the field and know if a wounded service member needs an anti-bacterial bandage, he said. Tents whose fabrics generate and store their own power and regulate the temperature inside will reduce fuel consumption in the field.

“The reality is that … we don’t know all the advances this new technology will make possible,” Carter said, “that’s the remarkable thing about innovation, and it’s another reason why America and America’s military must get there first.”

In the commercial world, such technical textiles will fuel the drive toward wearables. He added.

Pushing the Envelope

Running shoes as lightweight as socks will sense impact load for every step, he said, new fibers will strengthen walls and floors in buildings and other structures, first responders will wear ultralight firefighting gear that is more protective against the hottest flames, and washable featherweight sensors embedded in clothing will offer a clearer picture of health and fitness.

To stay ahead of the world’s growing and diverse challenges, Carter said the department is investing aggressively in innovation.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by shiv »

OK for US. Not OK for India?
The Pentagon Has Two Choices for Light-Attack Planes
With potential Air Force interest in light attack aircraft, a number of manufacturers have put forth existing and potential products for consideration. These vary over the full range from fully operational aircraft to paper designs. There are a number of potential candidates in varying states of development, only two of which are currently viable.

The A-29 Super Tucano and AT-6C Coyote are the most advanced aircraft developmentally. The AT-6B is a fencer, benefiting from commonality with the A-10C and AT-6C and a very robust communications and data array. The A-29 is a bruiser, with a higher, heavier airframe and a slightly heavier stores load. Both use the PT-6A-68 turboprop delivering 1,600 shaft horsepower.

Both aircraft, combat loaded, are comparable in power-to-weight ratio and wing loading to a combat-loaded P-47D. Both meet all requirements of the Buy American Act — unit costs are $11-14 million per unit, combat equipped, for a squadron-sized buy with support and training devices.
The A-29 is the most widely deployed modern turboprop light attack aircraft in the world, with the most experienced users being Brazil and Colombia. Almost 200 aircraft have been produced with another 200-plus aircraft on order. Colombian air force crews have extensive combat experience, including with precision-guided munitions, due to their use against the FARC.

Brazil has used them extensively for counternarcotics, reconnaissance and counter-air operations. The aircraft are in service worldwide from South America, Africa and Asia.

The aircraft is certified to carry rockets, free fall munitions, air to air missiles (AIM-9L class), air to ground missiles (AGM-65 class), and laser-guided bombs including the Enhanced Paveway II.
The AT-6C is a derivative of the T-6B with hardpoint wings, an uprated engine and avionics from the A-10C, including the Central Interface Control Unit which provides the primary mission systems for the AT-6C.

The AT-6C uses a modified A-10C Operational Flight Program, leveraging all of the A-10’s stores management, datalink, map and helmet mounted cueing system interfaces.

Commonality with the T-6B is over 70 percent. There are two prototypes, one production validation aircraft, and one LRIP aircraft on the production line. The aircraft underwent a two-year evaluation at the AATC in Tucson, and was judged to be an “operationally effective and suitable light-attack and armed reconnaissance aircraft.”

The AT-6C carries almost as much fuel as the A-29 despite a smaller airframe, and has accomplished weapons tests with the GBU-12/58 Paveway II, guns, guided and unguided 70-millimeter rockets and Mk-81/82 bombs.

The U.S. configuration used by the Air Guard is fully compatible with night vision devices, and includes SATCOM, SADL and a Gentex Scorpion helmet-mounted sight. It has a MIL STD 1760 databus instead of the 1553B and is fully compatible with GBU-38/54 and GBU-39 weapons, although they have not been tested. The aircraft lacks U.S. airworthiness and weapons certifications.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

The equation is quite simple. Take the expected COIN missions over the next couple of decades, look at the cost-difference in performing those missions using the existing Teens, and the A-10, Predators & Reapers, vsf using a long loiter Scorpion or similar aircraft with commercial systems and a cost of $3-4K per hour. If the cost-difference favors adoption of a new platform then go for it.

The case to acquire a dedicated low-cost ISR+Strike platform is to support the low-threat missions and not take the platform and put it in the pacific or at the borders of a near peer adversary that can challenge it. The case to keep the A-10 is also similar. Even its strongest advocates aren't really saying put it up against an HQ9 but keep it to support combat missions in the Middle East.
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by shiv »

brar_w wrote:The equation is quite simple. Take the expected COIN missions over the next couple of decades, look at the cost-difference in performing those missions using the existing Teens, and the A-10, Predators & Reapers, vsf using a long loiter Scorpion or similar aircraft with commercial systems and a cost of $3-4K per hour. If the cost-difference favors adoption of a new platform then go for it.

The case to acquire a dedicated low-cost ISR+Strike platform is to support the low-threat missions and not take the platform and put it in the pacific or at the borders of a near peer adversary that can challenge it. The case to keep the A-10 is also similar. Even its strongest advocates aren't really saying put it up against an HQ9 but keep it to support combat missions in the Middle East.
Nothing personal here brar, but every time I have brought up the subject of a light, slow CAS aircraft I have been informed on BRF that
1. They will get shot out of the sky
2. Get and A-10/Su-24
3. xyz percentage of the air force will have been shot down in the first days of any war
8)
Clearly the Pentagon is not visiting BRF hain?
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Re: US military, technology, arms, tactics

Post by brar_w »

. They will get shot out of the sky
2. Get and A-10/Su-24
3. xyz percentage of the air force will have been shot down in the first days of any war
8)
Clearly the Pentagon is not visiting BRF hair?
The Pentagon has consistently made the same case as mentioned above throughout the 90's given their analysis and survivability requirements at Wright Patterson (SIMAF) where they supported the force structure requirements and calculated strike-aircraft attrition under different scenarios in the Eastern European theater. The process factors in the fleet strength, cost-to maintain the fleet, money likely to be committed to the USAF over the next couple of decades, capabilities of the likely opponents and the doctrine which has now shifted to 1.5 theaters. Based on all these factors they come up with survivability requirements. If you are committing to lower survivability, you have to make up through numbers and therefore the resultant force-structures would have to be funded. If they cannot be funded, you have to move up survivability to make sure you can accomplish your national security needs with the available force structure. The most survivable fleet would be ALL B-2's for strike, All-F-22's for Air-air and All RQ-180's for ISR. You can't afford that for obvious reasons so you look at a mix of survivability, and affordability and develop your thresholds.

The A-10's are relevant but in order to fully utilize their abilities, they need a cooperating enemy that either has outdated equipment, is incompetent or a combination of the two. If not, they along with the teens are relegated to medium altitude strike or used in their designed-role if the mission is considered critical enough to absorb the attrition that would follow. Again, no one will send an A-10 unit into a dense HQ9 environment unless it was a matter of last resort. It would definitly not be a matter of doctrine and standard procedure. There are however missions that the US conducts where the Air Defense threat is negligible particularly at medium altitude, the air-air threat is completely absent and there is 24x7 C2C in the air guiding the strike missions. Here the A-10 is preferred over the F-16 because it can stay up longer, and can drop some of the same PGM's, and if required better utilize its cannon. That is an environment that the US Air Force sees a lot, and is expected to see a lot in the near to medium term as well. Hence there is a strong business case to be made that if the A-10's much like the Teens are largely dropping munitions than a better attack aircraft, that stays longer, and carries similar sensors and weapons at a fraction of the operating cost could end up saving a lot of money over the next few decades. That is the business case the Textron's of the world are making. They are definitely not making a case that they will be survivable in a near peer conflict. Thats not what this is about.

There is no one stopping anyone from utilizing the A-10's and Scorpions of the world against a very capable enemy with the ability to deny access through the air and on the ground using double digit SAM's. You can develop such a strategy, however you have to account for attrition and stock up, because you will loose a lot of aircraft and pilots.

I had a similar position in the Dream-Hawk debate a few days ago. If the IAF wants a COIN aircraft, or if it wants a non first strike affordable strike aircraft, or a cheaper way to train pilots in the strike missions than this is a fairly good, low risk option. Saudi Arabia and other ME nations will like the advanced hawk (Saudi's are already acquiring armed hawks) and Scorpion because they have a stockpile (be it a depleting one) of PGM's and do not really require the costly-performance of their frontline fighters in delivering them. Given their threat outside of Iran is largely insurgency, they can at a much lower cost keep on hammering at these threats with munitions of all shapes and sizes, and varying cost.
Last edited by brar_w on 04 Apr 2016 01:30, edited 1 time in total.
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