Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

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chetak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Austin wrote:
Any idea what is the tab like thinge the pilot is holding and why do they use it ?

http://sdelanounas.ru/i/c/n/v/f_cnVzc29 ... 2Nw==.jpeg

Paperless flight deck onlee.

Many airlines use such devices for route and flight planning. It also carries detailed Jeppesen data for airport information. Easy to update and keep current.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Hiten »

x-posting from the R&D thread

HAL has issued an RFI for RTA's engine
India's maiden attempt to develop its very own 70-100 capacity civil transport aircraft would soon get a boost#. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL], one of the participants in this National project, has issued a Request For Information [RFI] to select a suitable propulsion system for the twin-engine aircraft. Suppliers would have to provide 10 engines in the prototype phase of the programme, along with the necessary accessories, mountings & housing. Its stated 2017 as the time when the engines are required for integration on to the 1st prototype [estimating 3-4 prototypes, with the remaining engines for ground functions]. Commercial production is targeted for commencement from 2019, where it foresees a domestic requirement of 500 of these aircrafts [1000 engines], & then there could be export orders. The 80 kN thrust generating Engine, would have to be equipped with thrust reversers, a first for an indigenous aircraft project1, thereby allowing it to land on shorter runways, as may be the case in many Indian cities.
via http://www.aame.in/2014/01/scoping-mark ... power.html
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Austin »

They really have some amazing time lines for RTA .commercial production targeted at 2019 ......thats like 5 years from now including building prototypes and completion of flight testing program ( starts at 2017 and 2019 commercial production starts ) for a first of its kind for India.

This is just RFI and there would be RFP ..PNC etc till a final engine is selected..flight test program , certification etc One really wonders in which parallel universe does HAL operate , I want to be part of it :)
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

even the C919 which is WAY ahead might not hit FOC(commercial production) by 2019.

RTA is just another science project in the nature of Saras . eventually something will fly if funding is continued, but without guaranteed 150 pre-order from indian airlines, no global major would find it worth their while to participate. the chinese by diktat from highest levels have locked in 100s of domestic orders for the C919 family.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Austin »

In an aircraft there is much more than Engine that needs to be imported the list is quite big and exhaustive .......I am not sure how much core competencies we have in these area.

Sukhoi SSJ reportedly 60 % made of imported components and Brazil Embraer has 95 % imported content , The list of imported content for SSJ from international majors is linked

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su ... ticipation

The current RFI is just giving out a rosy picture on RTA ....and chances are if we make a serious attempt any production will run only after 2022 or beyond and production itself is a complex task and HAL has not been good at that eg in case of MKI production timelines which were revised

Some one surely is planning a long term Pension based career at HAL .....they know that even if RTA does not sell they have captive customer in IAF and Para military where MOD will be forced to buy it.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Air India flight 890 has skidded off the runway at Jaipur and ended up with burst tires and a broken left wing. :!:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 465358.cms
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by ManjaM »

Austin wrote:In an aircraft there is much more than Engine that needs to be imported the list is quite big and exhaustive .......I am not sure how much core competencies we have in these area.

Sukhoi SSJ reportedly 60 % made of imported components and Brazil Embraer has 95 % imported content , The list of imported content for SSJ from international majors is linked

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su ... ticipation

The current RFI is just giving out a rosy picture on RTA ....and chances are if we make a serious attempt any production will run only after 2022 or beyond and production itself is a complex task and HAL has not been good at that eg in case of MKI production timelines which were revised

Some one surely is planning a long term Pension based career at HAL .....they know that even if RTA does not sell they have captive customer in IAF and Para military where MOD will be forced to buy it.
We have the capability to put design and bring to market an unpressurised utility aircraft in ~15,000lb MTOW range with a foreign turboprop. Its just a question of getting someone to pay for the work. There is a market for such an aircraft, from bush flyers in Africa to connectivity aircrafts in the Indian subcontinent and potentially light utility roles for the militaries of the region (Saras, Do228 role). A pressurised, composite, modern avionics, FBW yada yada..<insert favorite pipe dream here> is a different ball game altogether.
From the brochure, HAL appears to want a common fuselage for the turboprop and jet variants (correct me if wrong), which itself puts a big question on both the commercial viability of the project as well as the amount of thought that has gone into configuration design. Commonality in this context is like a block of butter in your hands on hot Indian afternoon, you start with 1 kg in hand and end with grease on your chappal. Like you said, someone appears to be angling for a job they can cruise in till retirement.
Even if the structure is only inhouse, rest being imported, it is still no mean task to integrate, test, certify and support an airplane. It will no doubt be an educative experience for the engineers involved so they can take on the next challenge.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

is there any existing plane with common fuselage between turboprop and jet variants having entirely different wing designs?
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Austin »

ManjaM wrote:We have the capability to put design and bring to market an unpressurised utility aircraft in ~15,000lb MTOW range with a foreign turboprop. Its just a question of getting someone to pay for the work. There is a market for such an aircraft, from bush flyers in Africa to connectivity aircrafts in the Indian subcontinent and potentially light utility roles for the militaries of the region (Saras, Do228 role).
The key question is not about capability but about ability to deliver and order books ...right now Saras is the only hope when it comes to our own bird and it does not have big order from internal customer ...selling against international competition is a different ball game and so far we havent played that at all. ( I can only remember we selling small number ALH in international competition )
is there any existing plane with common fuselage between turboprop and jet variants having entirely different wing designs?
Dont remember of turboprop and fan having common fuselage but there are many example of extended fuselage for increase pax capability. Which is to say increase fuselage by length and not by diameter.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by ManjaM »

Singha wrote:is there any existing plane with common fuselage between turboprop and jet variants having entirely different wing designs?
I am not aware of any. There are aircrafts with sections of the fuselage common to other aircrafts of the same family, but never heard of the entire fuselage being common.
There is atleast one airplane I know of that has a wing borrowed from another airplane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swearingen_Merlin
The Merlin was an evolution of earlier modification programmes performed by Swearingen Aircraft. Ed Swearingen started the developments that led to the Merlin through gradual modifications to the Beechcraft Twin Bonanza and Queen Air business aircraft which he dubbed Excalibur. Then hybrid aircraft was developed, with a new fuselage and vertical fin, mated to salvaged and modified (wet) Queen Air wings and horizontal tails, and Twin Bonanza landing gear.[/quote]
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Singha wrote:is there any existing plane with common fuselage between turboprop and jet variants having entirely different wing designs?
Dornier 328 and 328JET. But the wings are pretty much the same and both are out of production though.

Image Image
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by ManjaM »

Nachiket, thanks for that.

Does anyone have updates on the NAL-Saras and where it is in the development cycle now? Not much in the news about the goings on.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Supratik »

Mumbai T2 to open. Pics on SSC. Waiting for GVK or GMR to bag Kolkata.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

apparently the worlds biggest airport art gallery also inside T2.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

Why is my poor madras alone made a scapegoat and has to be stuck with piss-poor execution :((
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Damn, some of those T2 pics are quite breathtaking. Truly "shakinah" in Singha saar's parlance. It might even put Delhi's T3 to shame. I just hope they can manage to maintain it.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

svinayak
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Image
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

bangalore T1-MKI now known as Kempegowda airport expanded is also entering service probably by end of next week.
capacity ups from 12 mil to 20 mil pax/annum.

T2 and 2nd runway work will start in a few yrs.

my only sore point is the very basic car parking and having to move across 2 driveways manually to get into the terminal....elevated moving belts are needed.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Prasad wrote:Why is my poor madras alone made a scapegoat and has to be stuck with piss-poor execution :((
Saar, that question needs to be asked of DMK along with the commies/unions.

The Central Govt during NDA tenure kick started the process and these gentlemen were the ones who staunchly opposed the handing over of these prized marvels of modern engineering to the evil capitalist running dogs. Their brave and persistent fight saved Chennai and Kolkata airports from suffering the horrible fate that befell Delhi, Bangalore, Hyderabad (and now Mumbai) airports.

Long live the glorious workers revolution!

:roll:
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Singha wrote:bangalore T1-MKI now known as Kempegowda airport expanded is also entering service probably by end of next week.
capacity ups from 12 mil to 20 mil pax/annum.

T2 and 2nd runway work will start in a few yrs.

my only sore point is the very basic car parking and having to move across 2 driveways manually to get into the terminal....elevated moving belts are needed.
It's not an easy choice to make for the airport developers - this is a point that continues to be debated all over.

For e.g. if you go in for segregated arrival and departure levels with ramps/flyovers, you will increase the capex quite dramatically (this will have ripple effect on the designs of all levels and parts of the airport) and also make you more susceptible to ramp congestion during peak times.

There are definite trade-offs for both designs. Perhaps an underground tunnel with escalators+BIAL like arrangement is the best way forward.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Sumeet »

Mumbai airport is excellent. Hope they do something to make BIAL better. DIAL is fine for now. Do remember that once the other terminal comes up T3 will become domestic.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Javee »

manish wrote:
Prasad wrote:Why is my poor madras alone made a scapegoat and has to be stuck with piss-poor execution :((
Saar, that question needs to be asked of DMK along with the commies/unions.
AAI and GoI wants to make sure that we suffer their indignities for life. AAI wanted to privatize Chennai airport and now the parliamentary panel headed by may day bhai Sitaram Yechuri is putting a spanner on the works.
Instead of giving away the airports to the private sector "on a platter", state-run Airports Authority of India (AAI) should form a subsidiary or a special purpose vehicle to grant management contracts to entities having expertise in the field, the Standing Committee on Transport, Tourism and Culture recommended.

In its report tabled in Parliament, the committee said it was "dismayed that instead of strengthening AAI by giving it much needed financial and administrative autonomy to enable it to take its own decisions without being influenced/advised by either the Ministry or the Planning Commission, a decision to give our airports on platter to private parties was taken.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 840_1.html
There is a big push on the new metro connectivity and the inter modal facility coming up in St.Thomas mount which will have access to metro, MRTS and the suburban rail. May be some day we will get the promised greenfield airport in Sriperumpudur. Until then, I guess the State govt should concentrate on Metro (Phase 2), it would help Chennai immensely than fighting for this wretched airport.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Male pilots put flyers at risk to avoid sexual harassment charges


The fear of being accused of sexual harassment is driving male pilots to violate a standard operating procedure (SOP), potentially putting lives in peril.

According to the SOP governing flight safety, the pilot or the co-pilot can leave the cockpit only after a member of cabin crew has been called into the flight deck. This is to ensure that if the person flying the plane suddenly falls sick, there is someone to tend to him or her and get the other pilot back urgently.

But, it turns out, many male pilots across domestic airlines have decided to keep air hostesses out of the cockpit, terrified the women will slap charges of groping or other forms of harassment on them.

"As a departure from the SOP, most of us in SpiceJet as well as in other domestic carriers have adopted a practice wherein we don't really allow the female members of the crew to enter the flight deck," a senior pilot told HT.

"The only reason being that should one of them turn around tomorrow and level seriously damaging allegations of groping, we pilots would have a lot of answering to do and may even lose our jobs even if the allegations are unsubstantiated," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Several other pilots said that recent high-profile cases involving a retired judge, Justice AK Ganguly, and journalist Tarun Tejpal, have forced them to look at measures that "protect us, even though they come at the cost of flight safety."

Airlines contacted were quick to deny that any such contravention of SOP was occurring.

A SpiceJet spokesperson said: "As a procedure, the crew does go in when required. No one is afraid nor has there been any case of anything unusual happening. The idea of fear of female cabin crew is preposterous given that we have plenty of female pilots as well."

"There have never been any instances of pilots sharing any fears of asking female crew members to come inside the cockpit when one of the pilots has stepped out. Safety is paramount for IndiGo and there can be absolutely no compromise on safety," said an IndiGo spokesperson. Air India and Jet Airways did not respond.

But one pilot spoke of the need to air his fears: "I do admit and fully understand that not allowing female colleagues in have consequences from a flight safety issue, but I do deem it important enough to let our fears be known to the public at large.''

Another pilot HT spoke to said, "The new law is playing on our psyche.'' Asked if they were not scared about air hostesses complaining about the SOP being violated, he said, "We pilots are constantly discussing this issue and now believe that it is better that the air hostess complain about not being allowed entry into the cockpit than them complaining about being groped." Another pilot said they only allow cabin crew colleagues they know well and trust but are now guarded about following the SOP as a routine.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Supratik »

Chennai is also up for privatization. Meanwhile, not much word from chee-pee-em and Mamatadi regarding Kolkata privatization, yet. Last time they agreed to block it - a rare instance where they agreed.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Javee wrote: AAI and GoI wants to make sure that we suffer their indignities for life. AAI wanted to privatize Chennai airport and now the parliamentary panel headed by may day bhai Sitaram Yechuri is putting a spanner on the works.
Javee saar, AAI 'wanted' to privatize Chennai only after public finally lost patience with it when even after years of delays, cost over runs and dilly dallying, AAI could only deliver an airport terminal that was not only under-built but was also very poorly constructed/executed.

Within days of opening there were a large number of screw-ups reported and there were complaints of stinking/leaky toilets in no time. The claim by unions that they can do a better job than the private players fell flat in those few days. Then they chose to bring in a private operator as it was pretty much their only way out of the mess after blocking the entry of private players for years.

Imagine if Chennai (and Kolkata) had gone in for privatization along with the rest in 2006 itself. Not only would the airports themselves be world-class by now, but AAI too would have earned a few more thousand crores in revenue share (yes, no kidding, AAI gets an eye-popping ~46% revenue share at Delhi whereas it is paid around 38% of topline of BOM airport operating company - PLUS a share in profits/dividends in line with their 26% ownership :eek: - all for pretty much doing nothing) which could have been ploughed back into building better Civil Aviation infra around the country at Tier-II/III places.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Supratik wrote:Mumbai T2 to open. Pics on SSC. Waiting for GVK or GMR to bag Kolkata.
GMR/GVK are barred from getting more than one major and one of the smaller airports individually in the current round of bidding.

The clause is built into the tender docs. Theoretically it is still possible that the Big Two can share one big airport each, but I am skeptical about the likelihood of GoI allowing that to happen. Could lead to a duopoly in the sector a la Boeing & Airbus.

Both GMR and GVK are now looking to expand outside India. GVK is going to build the new Yogyakarta airport in Indonesia and a minor local controversy currently stands between GMR and the Cebu airport in Philippines. On the flip side, GMR is about to cash out of their Istanbul airport venture.

Both GVK and GMR are already among world's top private airport operators by pax numbers. My guess is that both are already in the global top 5.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Supratik »

IIRC, it is still not finalized to keep GVK, GMR out or is it?
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Supratik »

OK, I believe they can still get one of the major airports up for privatization.

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 790_1.html
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by SaiK »

mumbai airport i guess is now the only airport that is looking good to international stds.. imho, bial is crappy box architecture.. and absolutely makes no sense or represent Karanataka which is known for its hoysala architecture style.

nice pics in toilet as well. keep it up mumbai.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 653865.cms
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

mumbai airport i guess is now the only airport that is looking good to international stds


This is well past standards of what I have seen in the US, Europe and Canada or Japan.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by hanumadu »

Why do they do so much landscaping out side the airport building and in mumbai's case, inside the airport building? Its expensive and a pain to maintain all those plants and bushes. If pollution is the reason, I would rather have them plant a few big trees on the land side and be done with it. Minimum maintenance and maximum pollution control. I would much rather have glass and steel than those small plants with colourful flowers. Same thing along the medians of roads. All the watering that is needed for them is a waste of money, time and effort. Just plant monstrous trees on the sides. They are self sustaining and they will process more green house gases than the tiny plants.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by member_28108 »

BIAL is more of a "functional" airport - standard Zurich/Frankfurt tupe of steel glass architecture (Metallica) but one thing though - you can generally get in and out of the airport pretty quickly.Delhi and Mumbai(Previously - I don't know now) has problems of shuttling through various terminals
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

trees have also been planted along the long 9km driveway of bangalore airport. but they will take time to come up. one cannot just transplant/grow 50 year old trees enmasse.

plus a thick tree cover will bring its own issues like attracting nesting birds, large predatory birds like eagles and security risk.

when the time comes for T2 and 2nd runway on right ride of the BIAL driveway they must properly plan the car parking in a unified soln and how to move passengers. a light elevated railway would present the best option between T1-T2 and future multi level car parks also. buses are clumsy and will clog road space.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

prasannasimha wrote:BIAL is more of a "functional" airport - standard Zurich/Frankfurt tupe of steel glass architecture (Metallica) but one thing though - you can generally get in and out of the airport pretty quickly.Delhi and Mumbai(Previously - I don't know now) has problems of shuttling through various terminals
All things of the past saar, haven't you seen the new pics yet? GVK has done a lot of remodelling+expansion while retaining the old core of the airport.

Image

The airport bling thing seems to be a very SDRE longing eh? First HYD, then DEL went that way with GMR at the helm while Siemens led consortium went all Euro-metallic at BIAL. Later, GMR's country cousins at GVK moved in at BIAL and see what you got :)
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by manish »

Mean-e-while, the glorious workers revolution rumbles on with AAI leading the charge at MAA.

Taking a cue from the private players, AAI too seems to have gone in for putting in place some 'plantations' within Chennai airport. Notice the flora & fauna (fungus :eek: :-? ) growing rapidly on the walls of the spanking new airport terminal, all around the AC vents.

To add some more 'post-modern' touches, they seem to have a metallic structure with fading yellow paint jutting out of the background, with rust (?) seeming to be creeping up around the edges. Socialism or death indeed!!!
Image
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Singha »

I will take some pics of the new BIAL T1 coming weekend. inshallah, looking forward to some better food and activity than shuffling to the office daily lol.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by hanumadu »

manish wrote: The airport bling thing seems to be a very SDRE longing eh? First HYD, then DEL went that way with GMR at the helm while Siemens led consortium went all Euro-metallic at BIAL. Later, GMR's country cousins at GVK moved in at BIAL and see what you got :)
BIAL T1 before the expansion is a pretty ordinary box like structure. The expansion added some style to it.
You can still see the square part of the original terminal on the roof in this picture
Image

The undulating curved roof is the newly expanded part.
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by Javee »

manish wrote:Mean-e-while, the glorious workers revolution rumbles on with AAI leading the charge at MAA.

Taking a cue from the private players, AAI too seems to have gone in for putting in place some 'plantations' within Chennai airport. Notice the flora & fauna (fungus :eek: :-? ) growing rapidly on the walls of the spanking new airport terminal, all around the AC vents.
I actually shot pictures of MAA Intl airport with pigeons pooping inside the terminal when I was flying out the last time. I guess MAA will remain as is to educate us on AAI's glorious (mis)management. :cry:
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Re: Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Out of all the major airports in the country, the Chennai airport has got the worst deal because the AAI did the modernization. From all accounts, the AAI has done a much better job at the Kolkatta airport. The International arrival is still not functional at the Chennai airport ostensibly because there is not enough manpower to manage a cutover.
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