Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Jul 2011 09:55

^^ Thanks..I was searching for it on google.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 09:56

suryag wrote:
5) It will replace the unguided Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher (40 km range) and Smerch (90 km) rocket systems. (Surprise - replace the Pinaka!!!)
I dont think it will replace pinaka, pinaka will obviously be cheaper and its range is equal to the min range of the prahaar. Makes a little more sense to replace the smerch but that is unlikely either. Prahaar might be a surprise package hidden somewhere behind the frontlines to deliver the punch to higher value enemy c4i structures/big supply depots located 100-200 Kms behind the enemy frontline

SMERCH would eventually be replaced, no additional launchers purchased, rocket stock limited, Unless we design and produce a Pinaka of 300mm diameter, no additional rockets. It is a Surprise that Desh never showed much interest in license producing SMERCH launchers or rockets (for all the Natashas in the world!!!)
I too dont think Pinaaka would be replaced... more variants would be coming our way... Prahaar would be part of the initial Barrage to take out High-Value targets like Ammo/fuel Dump, C&C (along with Brahmos) and bases.

Imagine couple of Prahaars hitting an AFB where planes are parked in the open or in HAS exploding a cluster ammo warhead or one filled with metal fragement... everything in a general area of 1 SQ KM would be ripped apart!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:01

a Noob Pooch? which is ITR-III, you may email me if you cannot answer on the forum... there are multiple ITRs to my knowledge.

nits · Post by **nits** » 21 Jul 2011 10:01

indranilroy wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Guys!! it was tested when Madam Clinton is in TOWN!!!
This is a fixation of "Clinton in town" is silly in my opinion ... as if Clinton will not come to know about it while she is away or US is in 150 km range from India!

Infact i think last launch was postponed so that they can Test when Clinotn is in town

We should start thinking with some Attitude now Guys

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Jul 2011 10:03

Shrinivasan wrote:
Imagine couple of Prahaars hitting an AFB where planes are parked in the open or in HAS exploding a cluster ammo warhead or one filled with metal fragement... everything in a general area of 1 SQ KM would be ripped apart!!!

But Prahaar Missile has a maximum range of 150 Kms...how can you expect it to hit an enemy AFB.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jul 2011 10:05

Length and weight quoted are same as prithvi Liquid varient. It will be interesting to see the diameter. If the dia also confirms, the warhead weight is much higher and it is good as more TNT gets packed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 10:06

>> The 7.8 metre long missile weighing 1.2 tonnes

the usual pencil slim "weak yindu" mizzile

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 21 Jul 2011 10:08

Skardu is 60Kms from LOC, Sargodha/Shorkot/Rawalpindi may well be within range

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Jul 2011 10:08

^^^ @ sagarag Prahaar is a battlefield /tactical missile. It can be transported by truck launcher so it can cross IB/LOC/LAC when IA advances. PAK does have some airbases close by.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 10:10

sargodha is well to the rear around 250km as crow flies from border.

but rawalpindi / lahore is definitely in range , and the network of airbases and ordnance plants around such major cities. anything covered by SS-150 prithvi can be targeted with prahaar too.

prabhug · Post by **prabhug** » 21 Jul 2011 10:12

tarmak says 150Km in 195 seconds so it's only 3.5 Mach for a ballistic missile.

bmallick · Post by **bmallick** » 21 Jul 2011 10:14

chackojoseph wrote:Length and weight quoted are same as prithvi Liquid varient. It will be interesting to see the diameter. If the dia also confirms, the warhead weight is much higher and it is good as more TNT gets packed.

Prithvi -1 - 9 m length, 4.4 ton, 1.1 m diameter
Prithvi -2 - 8.56 m length, 4.6 ton, 1.1 m diameter
Prithvi -1 - 8.56 m length, 5.6 ton, 1 m diameter

Hence Prahaar has different weight & length compared to Prithvi.

Also since Prahaar is 1.2 ton, 7.8 m long and also solid fueled, it is going to super slim, Kareena Kapoor, size zero. Maybe 25 - 30 cm at most.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 10:16

EXTRA munitions have a range in excess of 130 km (81 miles) and carry a 125 kg (275 lbs) warhead. EXTRA's launch weight is about 450kg (990 lbs) and it is precise to within 10m. EXTRA munitions are 30cm (12 inches) in diameter and 3.97m (13 feet) in length, similar to the M270 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS)

looking at dimension and warhead weight for a similar range rocket, prahaar is almost 2x the length and more than 2x the weight. so perhaps a 250-400kg warhead can be expected. 300kg is enough to blow apart the largest of industrial shed / underground "facility" if the warhead penetrates and then detonates.

SagarAg · Post by **SagarAg** » 21 Jul 2011 10:20

prabhug wrote:tarmak says 150Km in 195 seconds so it's only 3.5 Mach for a ballistic missile.

Its 2.26 Mach for 150 kms in 195 seconds.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:22

SagarAg wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote: Imagine couple of Prahaars hitting an AFB where planes are parked in the open or in HAS exploding a cluster ammo warhead or one filled with metal fragement... everything in a general area of 1 SQ KM would be ripped apart!!!
But Prahaar Missile has a maximum range of 150 Kms...how can you expect it to hit an enemy AFB.

What is the distance From Sargodha to the Indian Border? or from Chakala? or even Mehran? And do you think Prahaar is going to stay within this 150KM Range... there is no MTCR like restriction for this... it could easily creep upto 300km, so as to not step on the 350km P-III.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 21 Jul 2011 10:24

^^^ Why does everyone want to take out airbases with Ballistic missiles only? Dont airstrikes have a role?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:27

bmallick wrote:Prithvi -1 - 9 m length, 4.4 ton, 1.1 m diameter
Prithvi -2 - 8.56 m length, 4.6 ton, 1.1 m diameter
Prithvi -1 - 8.56 m length, 5.6 ton, 1 m diameter

Hence Prahaar has different weight & length compared to Prithvi.
Also since Prahaar is 1.2 ton, 7.8 m long and also solid fueled, it is going to super slim, Kareena Kapoor, size zero. Maybe 25 - 30 cm at most.

Don't Drag Kareena into this... that name is reserved for Rafale... let this be Deepika ( Padukone)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 10:28

gakakkad wrote:^^^ Why does everyone want to take out airbases with Ballistic missiles only? Dont airstrikes have a role?

Quiver full of arrows..
First send out a barrage of missiles to hit any target, send planes to mop up next...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 10:29

well its cheaper and safer to take out the SAM sites, buried underground AD facilities, radars and runway/hangers of a AF using long range missiles if one can afford it and have the required accuracy. the follow up airstrike will have reduced risk from the degraded defences and complete the damage.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jul 2011 10:31

gakakkad wrote:^^^ Why does everyone want to take out airbases with Ballistic missiles only? Dont airstrikes have a role?

Because Pakis are going to fly aggressive cap with their f-7 without radars to deter the IAF and write an advertotial in AFM. Some F-16's will be vectored and pakis will shoot 5 SU-30 MKI's with K-8 trainers in less than .00005 seconds.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 21 Jul 2011 10:34

Couple of hundred with FAE will lighten up Lahore like laaltain and few thousands can achieve permanent peace in Poakjab. Parhar = true Pakahari missle.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jul 2011 10:42

gakakkad wrote:^^^ Why does everyone want to take out airbases with Ballistic missiles only? Dont airstrikes have a role?

I dont think anyone is saying take out the Airbase, just disable runways and AD Sam's so the aircraft have a much easier job bombing all the Aircraft Hangers, Bunkers, Ammunition dumps etc etc. Even Nato always does the initial strike with Tomohawks before aircraft move in.

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 21 Jul 2011 10:43

Here comes Prahaar: FIRST pics

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 21 Jul 2011 10:53

Nikhil T wrote:Here comes Prahaar: FIRST pics

Truly a byproduct of AAD. The vanes are so compact too. This takes us into a different league.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 21 Jul 2011 10:56

Singha wrote:well its cheaper and safer to take out the SAM sites, buried underground AD facilities, radars and runway/hangers of a AF using long range missiles if one can afford it and have the required accuracy. the follow up airstrike will have reduced risk from the degraded defences and complete the damage.

sounds more like a role for Low flying sub-sonic Cruise missile aka Nirbhay. With just 150 Km range, I doubt Prahar is meant for that kind of strike role. Just my opinion that by initial judgement it sounds more like a battlefield clear house missile, one which will travel with our advancing divisions (since 6 can be carried on one platform) and clear the area of any TSP defensive troops standing in the way , well before we come into direct close quarter confrontation . Also will make TSP think twice before locating a NASR type system just 50-60 Km. from advancing Indian Armour, since Prahar can very well isolate and take it out at double it's range.

Wheres if fired from within Indian borders towards Airbases , Prahar prima facie has insufficient range.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 11:03

150km is just the start...we can expect variants like 300km , 450km in due course - perhaps fatter ones carried 4 per TELAR or 3-per TELAR (brahmos style log bundle).

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jul 2011 11:07

So, the diameter is 450 mm.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 11:09

the launch system is invisible! need more pics

tarmak has it! - so a temporary system not the final cansister launch....AAD was tested same way

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 21 Jul 2011 11:13

^^
Partly visible here:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-2tWKb4GlU8M/T ... 00/p-4.jpg

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 21 Jul 2011 11:20

I hope boys and girls, you are finally convinced that this has absolutely nothing to do with the EXTRA.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 21 Jul 2011 11:28

Range range range. More range. And finally we'll end up with something like 8000 km ICBM's being fired at every Paki tank formations or military base.

To replacements may go like this
Pinaka-1 -> Pinaka-II
Smerch - > Prahaar
Prithvi -> Shaurya
Agni-1,II - > Agni-III and V
and also Agni-VI ICBM.
The launcher May change for the final version. It may resemble the MGM-140 ATACMS.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jul 2011 11:29

What is Extra?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 11:36

its a 150km rocket made by IMI and fired off their mlrs vehicles. EXTRA - extended range arty

key now is volume production and QA of all the systems tested recently - shourya, PAD, AAD, ... we need to get them into serial production and operational deployment in timely manner. there are challenges in doing that which cannot be dismissed.
we need to produce 5000 pinaka / annum to make it a volume use weapon and scale up regiments.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 11:58

Singha wrote:key now is volume production and QA of all the systems tested recently - shourya, PAD, AAD, ...
we need to get them into serial production and operational deployment in timely manner.
we need to produce 5000 pinaka / annum to make it a volume use weapon and scale up regiments.

Maintaining Quality might suffer with ramped up production, hence we need to expand production capacity in BDL. Rope in some private players too... When will the BDL Vizag facility come on-stream?
Agni volume needs to be seriously augmented. Agni2-p the cannisterized version should be operationalized quickly. this also can be carried in a 3-4 pack on a TEL. Agni-III and Agni-V needs to advance in its test cycle.
5K Pinaka's per year and 1 Regiment per year should be made the norm.
Please do not forget Nag and her cousin Helina, we need them ASAP... get the Army to move on inducting them in a big way. Man, all this make Cold Start a distinct reality (Prahaar, Pinaka, Nag, Helina etc)

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 12:00

I would love to see Mr Ch0rs post of Prahaar now. probabbly he will say the color of the exhaust plumes match with that of some crazy Ass missile from Azerbaijan... DRDO and MXTO signed a JV to secretly get this and test it as their own... and then he will post Sabazhis to himself. Did anyone read his rant about Indian Arty today?!?!? he actually Dissed Israel in it? what gives?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2011 12:47

Not sure why on earth people give Prasun Sengupta any credibility

Right on the day when AAD was tested, it was announced SSM derivative was being developed in parallel. Prithvi production was stopped thereafter. The media errroronously called it Ashwin. It was always known that it would be an AAD derivative with Brahmos SCAN seeker. Here is an old report dating 2007 http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3643

The missile will be cheaper and even more reliable than Brahmos, minus Russian dependencies. And the cannisters can be ship mounted - remember that L&T manufactures UVLM - the key word is universal. And enemy air defenses will have to deal with simultaneously ballistic (Prahaar) and manoeuvering (BrahMos) missiles.

2084 + Spyder will defend our ADGE from similar enemy threats - that is many notches lower tech.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jul 2011 12:55

prabhug wrote:tarmak says 150Km in 195 seconds so it's only 3.5 Mach for a ballistic missile.

speed is not calculated that way. 150 km is distance between point A from where it is fired to point B where it hits the ground. distance covered by missile is along a parabolic arc which is much larger (1.5 times 150km, say) speed is calculated using the distance covered along the trajectory arc.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2011 13:03

tsarkar wrote:Not sure why on earth people give Prasun Sengupta any credibility

Right on the day when AAD was tested, it was announced SSM derivative was being developed in parallel. Prithvi production was stopped thereafter. The media errroronously called it Ashwin. It was always known that it would be an AAD derivative with Brahmos SCAN seeker. Here is an old report dating 2007 http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3643

The missile will be cheaper and even more reliable than Brahmos, minus Russian dependencies. And the cannisters can be ship mounted - remember that L&T manufactures UVLM - the key word is universal. And enemy air defenses will have to deal with simultaneously ballistic (Prahaar) and manoeuvering (BrahMos) missiles.

2084 + Spyder will defend our ADGE from similar enemy threats - that is many notches lower tech.

Many thanks for the clarification.

The capability conferred by this missile is beyond words, actually. We now need a longer range variant for PLA - something with 250-300-400kms range....will allow missiles to be launched from the plains of Assam Valley. Or targets in depth opposite our Ladakh. Though, such a missile will ofcourse be more heavy.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 13:04

tsarkar wrote:Not sure why on earth people give Prasun Sengupta any credibility

Credibility my foot, I want to rub him big Ruddy nose down to the dirt where he belongs.. I have a personal grouse against him. Just because I used Chor Gupta, He personally named me in his post in ridicule. This was during the Prahaar discussion only (where he himself flip-flopped on what the missile was). I'll screw him with comments, but then he'll remove it. so I don't bother to write!!!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jul 2011 13:06

Ballistic missiles dont have average speed vis-a-vis cruise missile. The missile accelerates to Mach 4.5 to the apogee and then follows a ballistic trajectory. Prithvi used wings for some lift generation. I am sure AAD TVC assists accuracy of Prahaar http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/R ... 110826.JPG Infact it will provide significant control if the missile is powered throughout.