Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[fanne]

I don’t have twitter access so here are my thoughts.

The Achilles heel of tejasmk2 or hlft 42, both will be engines - f414. Either you get them or they develop supply chain issues.

Coming back, mk2 uses exactly the same wing as lcamk1a, and many systems. It is but a further evolution of mk1a, not easy but not hard. The work has been ongoing on that for many years and first example should be 50% ready by now.

Hlft 42 is a paper product. Either it is an ego trip of someone at HAL ( they would rather not build an ADA designed plane but built a HAL designed plane), or worst that was response of anti India deep state to hobble mk2 and indias quest for self reliance).
It is metallic against composite of mk2 (ready heavy and high rcs), new wings that will at least take 10 years to qualify etc etc. it is so dumb an idea that it is not even funny.

[Cain Marko]

Hlft 42 is there to fill role of tejas mk2. Amca is far more important since there's no fallback option. Tejas mk2 was a jobs programme parrotted by successive drdo/Ada chief like Dr Girish Deodhare to further their career goals within the organisation.
I agree with prodyut das about Chinese fighters. We should develop satellite based surveillance and asymmetric drone capabilities to deter Chinese planes from planning strikes into our territory.

Cancel a program (Tejas Mk2) of which Rs. 9,000 crore has already been invested and the first prototype will roll out in 2025/2026.

and replace it with....

A program (HLFT-42) which has yet to receive official sanction of funds from the GOI for even a single prototype.

We go through this tamasha idea (focus on AMCA, cancel Tejas Mk2) on BRF every now and then. We will never learn

Twitter thread as to why Tejas Mk2 is so critical for the AMCA program ---> https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1873016799299785143

The hlft idea is beyond stupid!
BUT...
Firestarterz: "MK2 is needed to replace mig29, m2k."
Not really. It'll serve at the lower level of IAF orbat. more like a mig21 replacement and some overlap with the above mentioned aircraft. This is where mrca comes in.

"MK2 is needed to develop AMCA tech."
Why can't mk1a suffice? There are countries moving into 5gen programs without any prior fighter aircraft manufacturing (kaan) or similar. Others are doing it with a similar (to Indias base) like Korea.

The real elephant in the room with tejas series is the engine and everyone knows this. Still can't believe that the worthies chose a GE engine for the production variant. "Once bitten, twice bold (stupid)" and it seems as though desh is no further on the kaveri than it was 10 years ago. Even a gung ho atmanirbhar modi couldn'tt fix this. Not sure what the options are now.

In this sense, maybe a 2 x somewhat underpowered engined (kaveri?) TEDBF might be a better option than the MK2. Also a more direct replacement for medium tier in the IAF. Continue and stabilize mk1a in the meantime (perhaps it can be reengined later with a more powerful kaveri if needed)

[Rakesh]

For better or for worse, we have to stick with the F414. Too late in the program to switch this to another turbofan.

Same is true with the Tejas Mk1A, which uses the F404. This is just not feasible as this critical juncture.

The situation is dire. We do not have time to waste.

The Govt needs to go all in (multi-pronged approach) for fighters;

1) Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 in triple digit orders.

2) A foreign fighter to supplement the above.

We cannot rely solely on the Tejas platform, due to the drip feed delivery schedule that is coming from GE. No matter how much we try to spin this, an import is absolutely necessary. The Govt will have to loosen the purse strings.

[Rakesh]

The hlft idea is beyond stupid!

Cancel the Tejas Mk2 and you will open the door for a single engine fighter. An absolutely dumb idea.

Not really. It'll serve at the lower level of IAF orbat. more like a mig21 replacement and some overlap with the above mentioned aircraft. This is where mrca comes in.

You need the lower level of ORBAT. It is crucial. You cannot go all in on 5th generation fighters. No country - even the US, which prints money from thin air - is doing this. The F-15EX and the F-16 Block 70 are both going to serve in the USAF for decades to come.

The MRCA and the Tejas Mk2 will both be required. GE has not given India any vote of confidence, because of its constant delays. At this stage, another import will have to come to supplement the Tejas Mk2.

Bitter pill to swallow, but we better swallow it now *OR* face far worse consequences.

Why can't mk1a suffice? There are countries moving into 5gen programs without any prior fighter aircraft manufacturing (kaan) or similar. Others are doing it with a similar (to Indias base) like Korea.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1873024369427136562 ---> Nobody kills an in-between step thinking they'll magically leapfrog to the next step. Tech doesn't work that way unless you are willing to crash & burn and doom the entire AMCA effort. ADA is on record stating they will leverage Mk2 for AMCA. Else, everything on it will be new.

[sanman]

Scrap it and go with something newer?

[Cain Marko]

The hlft idea is beyond stupid!

Cancel the Tejas Mk2 and you will open the door for a single engine fighter. An absolutely dumb idea.

Not really. It'll serve at the lower level of IAF orbat. more like a mig21 replacement and some overlap with the above mentioned aircraft. This is where mrca comes in.

You need the lower level of ORBAT. It is crucial. You cannot go all in on 5th generation fighters. No country - even the US, which prints money from thin air - is doing this. The F-15EX and the F-16 Block 70 are both going to serve in the USAF for decades to come.

The MRCA and the Tejas Mk2 will both be required. GE has not given India any vote of confidence, because of its constant delays. At this stage, another import will have to come to supplement the Tejas Mk2.

Bitter pill to swallow, but we better swallow it now *OR* face far worse consequences.

Why can't mk1a suffice? There are countries moving into 5gen programs without any prior fighter aircraft manufacturing (kaan) or similar. Others are doing it with a similar (to Indias base) like Korea.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1873024369427136562 ---> Nobody kills an in-between step thinking they'll magically leapfrog to the next step. Tech doesn't work that way unless you are willing to crash & burn and doom the entire AMCA effort. ADA is on record stating they will leverage Mk2 for AMCA. Else, everything on it will be new.

Other than the italicized part, rest makes sense to me. The bottom of the pyramid always has to be wider and therefore there is no denying the need for a low end, but dependable fighter. but considering the shenanigans wrt the engines, the dependability of the tejas is now questionable. How can the base of the pyramid be built if the materials are in short supply?

Re. The italicized part, and at a purely academic level, I think the Kaan fighter as well the ones made by Japan and Korea kinda belie this claim that one needs an interim step without which the AMCA is doomed. Very doubtful. And if such an interim step is indeed needed, why can't it be the TEDBF, which reduces the questionability surrounding the engines by providing a twin engined platform.

[drnayar]

@Cain Marko, Türkiye and Japanese military industrial complexes are tied to the American ecosystem and have been producing parts and subsystems for many of the American military programs for decades, where is Indian military industrial complex compared to them ? ..there is a long way to go

[BenG]

Rs 9000 crore or $ 1.2 billion is earmarked for the programme and not yet spent. Knowing how our finance ministry, MOD officials work. They would not have paid the vendors for already completed work. So after paying vendors for current work done, money left can be diverted to new project without the need to find new funding for hlft42. The work already done by Ada/Hal is also circumspect since mk2's intake design has remained unchanged in all the versions. The design and Ada's/Hal track record wrt tejas/hjt36 does not inspire confidence. The money and technology such as radar developed for mk2 can be put into hlft42.

Besides the urgency, there's a design issue wrt tejas mk2. The intake of mk2 is behind the canard which will cause disruption to airflow in different flight regimes as the canards move. I am fairly confident drdo/hal will not accept this problem till 10 or more years is wasted just like hjt-36 and then a new chief of drdo/Ada will brush it off as a rookie mistake. So tejas mk2 is an extremely risky proposition to tie down personnel and capital instead of amca. but now we have tejas mk1a which probably has all these airframe problems sorted out. With the additional 97 mk1a order we don't need to worry about production run till amca comes online. The lack of IAF interest and orders for mk1 was the prime reason mk2 was conceived. This motivation for mk2 does not exist anymore.

The forum taking the words of our bureaucratic scientists as holy gospel is just sad. Continuing to parrot mk2 as essential is just like making committees to solve technical and managerial problems. Our system made by bureaucrats is self-serving, opaque and prone to dysfunction. It does not serve national interests nor it is open to scrutiny by elected officials/taxpayers.

Hlft42 is a cheaper all-metal plane based on an existing airframe. It has less max take off and yet carries more fuel which could help with range as well as agility. The manufacturing process is also likely to be simpler than composites which will help with faster production.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1873782435164615073 ---> Due to dependence on foreign firms for engines, every indigenous fighter jet programme is getting affected

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 230222417/
30 Dec 2024

[Cain Marko]

@Cain Marko, Türkiye and Japanese military industrial complexes are tied to the American ecosystem and have been producing parts and subsystems for many of the American military programs for decades, where is Indian military industrial complex compared to them ? ..there is a long way to go

Arrey sir,
India has been tied to every bloody military industrial ecosystem for 70 years. From producing russki maal to Shakti engines to Jaguar license production to Boeing parts, what has India not done? And what esoteric experience is the MK2 going to give India that it can't get from mk1, mk1a, TEDBF, ghatak ityadi?I

I can understand the need for low end fighters but please let's not make this some kind of tech milestone that India HAS to cross and AMCA is doomed to fail otherwise.

[ashishvikas]

I don't understand why they r negotiating deal for 99 engines when requirements are much more.

[pravula]

I don't understand why they r negotiating deal for 99 engines when requirements are much more.

What requirements? Show us the agreement/order…

[A Deshmukh]

I don't understand why they r negotiating deal for 99 engines when requirements are much more.

The next tranche of Tejas Mk2 may go with Kaveri variant if it is ready.

[ernest]

Hlft42 is a cheaper all-metal plane based on an existing airframe. It has less max take off and yet carries more fuel which could help with range as well as agility. The manufacturing process is also likely to be simpler than composites which will help with faster production.

What existing airframe are you talking about? HLFT is nowhere near maturity of Tejas-mk2.
HLFT is a cheap lower end airframe which will see limited service with IAF and will target exports mostly, where there is space for such an airframe.

[Prasad]

Do people not realise that the Mk2 is just a modern M2k? And that the air force drove requirements from the Mk1 to the Mk2 over the 2009-14 period when the current configuration was chosen? Come on, just look at the specs!

[BenG]

The hlft idea is beyond stupid!

I will clarify. I am not saying to develop HLFT-42 within tejas mk2 timeline. I am saying stop tejas mk2 and put efforts into 83+97 production of mk1a now and in future with Kaveri engine for mk1B in place of mk2. Devote all scienctists of DRDO who have been groomed during Tejas development to fly AMCA with an extrememly challenging target date. HLFT-42 once developed can take the role of Tejas mk2 even if its late by 2035. But AMCA can't be late. If turks can fly a stealth plane in 7-8 years of funds being sanctioned in August 2016, then DRDO should be able to do it before 2030 due to its prior experience in developing Tejas. Turks didn't wait for Hurjet to complete engineering and development before KAAN was started. We should choose to fly AMCA in this decade. Its a psychological battle too. If not, then DRDO and its spawling setup is for mere show.

What existing airframe are you talking about? HLFT is nowhere near maturity of Tejas-mk2.

Tejas mk2 is also no where near maturity to fly let alone IOC or FOC. Tejas m1a is still in a limbo. But GE will eventually deliver on this because there is heat on them and US-India relations have yet to completely break-down. At least with mk1a, there is a possiblity of using Kaveri engine. HLFT-42 can be developed around using desi engine or F414 based on our experiences with F414 delivery by GE. I have serious reservations about intake design of Tejas mk2 unless the testing data at onera is declasssified or the least summaried by ADA/DRDO to be shared with IAF and parliament. HLFT-42 has same aerodynamics as HF-24. It is not a completely new design. If we can certify Kaveri, then it would make a lot more sense to have a low-end, cheaper fighter aircraft based on successive models of Kaveri rather than Tejas mk2 with F414 in the role.

Do people not realise that the Mk2 is just a modern M2k?

Every tom, dick and harry who sparingly comes across Tejas development news knows that. Its just easy for IAF to put out Mirage-2000 specs and compare the result of end product during testing. It was a good idea in my opinion. If you compare capabilities of AMCA such as range, service ceiling etc, they are also the same as mirage-2000. But if you ask them now which airctaft they need first? Tejas mk2 or AMCA? We all know the answer. The first choice could also be Rafale.But when MOD does not have money to build blast-proof pens, they are not going to squander precious foreign exchange on 100-200 Rafales.
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 53422.html

And Tejas mk1 was also designed to occupy the footprint of mig21 and its blast pens.If those 400 or so blast pens are still there to use, it is preudent to design HLFT-42 smaller than Mirage -2000 with Kaveri engine to use those old pens.

[ashishvikas]

I don't understand why they r negotiating deal for 99 engines when requirements are much more.

The next tranche of Tejas Mk2 may go with Kaveri variant if it is ready.

No, changing engine is like making a new plane.

[ashishvikas]

I don't understand why they r negotiating deal for 99 engines when requirements are much more.

What requirements? Show us the agreement/order…

I'm sure there is no Order for even 99.

[Manish_P]

...

And Tejas mk1 was also designed to occupy the footprint of mig21 and its blast pens.If those 400 or so blast pens are still there to use, it is preudent to design HLFT-42 smaller than Mirage -2000 with Kaveri engine to use those old pens.

Forgive my ignorance but i have never understood this reasoning/logic. Why can't the blast pens be extended/rebuilt in larger size. Is it tougher to build a blast pen than an aircraft?

On an aircraft carrrier i can understand, but on land...

[BenG]

...

And Tejas mk1 was also designed to occupy the footprint of mig21 and its blast pens.If those 400 or so blast pens are still there to use, it is preudent to design HLFT-42 smaller than Mirage -2000 with Kaveri engine to use those old pens.

Forgive my ignorance but i have never understood this reasoning/logic. Why can't the blast pens be extended/rebuilt in larger size. Is it tougher to build a blast pen than an aircraft?

On an aircraft carrrier i can understand, but on land...

In theory yes, they should build new pens. But Its just penny pinching and the idea is to reuse existing infrastucture to keep cost down. The air force does not budget them with capital aquisition cost to keep the figure small enough for approval by MOD. The initial Su-30 mki deal did not include contract to build larger pens for this very reason. There is a lot of stuff ungalmourous stuff beyond buying new aircraft which suffer due to lack of funds and its a problem all countries suffer from. I'm sorry that I can't elaborate a lot more.

[Manish_P]

...
In theory yes, they should build new pens. But Its just penny pinching and the idea is to reuse existing infrastucture to keep cost down. The air force does not budget them with capital aquisition cost to keep the figure small enough for approval by MOD..

We run to save the pennies on pens which can be built here but don't worry about paying pounds (dollars) for imports. Costly Imports which need costly infra like climate controlled pens.

Brilliant

[Cain Marko]

Do people not realise that the Mk2 is just a modern M2k? And that the air force drove requirements from the Mk1 to the Mk2 over the 2009-14 period when the current configuration was chosen? Come on, just look at the specs!

Agreed completely which is what makes the engine choice all the more galling! The mirage despite carrying an AL31 sized engine, was always underpowered. Why they heck did they not use an AL31 to power the MK2 when they very well knew that the tejas would come close to mirage weight class anyways? Effing short sightedness. This should've been decided in 2008 itself and today we'd have nlca and tejas all over the place.

[Rakesh]

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 230222417/
30 Dec 2024

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1873784197162426435 ---> Where are big brains of Indian armed forces veterans now? Why no drama about ‘proven’ foreign systems holding up modernisation of Indian services?

[Cain Marko]

The hlft idea is beyond stupid!

I will clarify. I am not saying to develop HLFT-42 within tejas mk2 timeline. I am saying stop tejas mk2 and put efforts into 83+97 production of mk1a now and in future with Kaveri engine for mk1B in place of mk2. Devote all scienctists of DRDO who have been groomed during Tejas development to fly AMCA with an extrememly challenging target date. HLFT-42 once developed can take the role of Tejas mk2 even if its late by 2035. But AMCA can't be late. If turks can fly a stealth plane in 7-8 years of funds being sanctioned in August 2016, then DRDO should be able to do it before 2030 due to its prior experience in developing Tejas. Turks didn't wait for Hurjet to complete engineering and development before KAAN was started. We should choose to fly AMCA in this decade. Its a psychological battle too. If not, then DRDO and its spawling setup is for mere show..

But why screw around with hlft when mk1a can plug the numbers? I'm alright with the idea of focusing more on AMCA or even TEDBF in lieu of MK2 so long as more orders for mk1a come in.
Let MK2 be tied to a more powerful kaveri and come in due time but scale mk1a right now to get the numbers.
When the kaveri is ready, it can be used to not only power AMCA, tejas MK2, but perhaps even reengine the mk1a during an mlu.

For now pump funds into the bird in hand...mk1a (although this is a bit dicey considering the recent getting shenanigans... What a legendary eff up that is), developing kaveri and AMCA. Supplement with silver bullet 5gen force of 36 fighters (unfortunate repeat of 80s but what to do) and a robust, layered ads using voronez/nebo m or whatever.

This is one of the worst periods in AF history. Low end fighters (tejas) are questionable thanks to the engine and high end fighters (rafale) are few and looking increasingly obsolete.

A glorious testament to the unique prowess of stupid decision making by all the stakeholders involved... The AF, the ADA±HAL, the MOD and successive GOI. Circuses are better organized.

[Rakesh]

Other than the italicized part, rest makes sense to me. The bottom of the pyramid always has to be wider and therefore there is no denying the need for a low end, but dependable fighter. but considering the shenanigans wrt the engines, the dependability of the tejas is now questionable. How can the base of the pyramid be built if the materials are in short supply?

Re. The italicized part, and at a purely academic level, I think the Kaan fighter as well the ones made by Japan and Korea kinda belie this claim that one needs an interim step without which the AMCA is doomed. Very doubtful. And if such an interim step is indeed needed, why can't it be the TEDBF, which reduces the questionability surrounding the engines by providing a twin engined platform.

What do you want the low-end, dependable fighter to be? It has to be a fourth generation fighter. No fifth gen fighter will work here.

Go down the list of the MRFA contestants and lets see who is really dependable here;

1) Rafale: Independent, but expensive
2) Typhoon: Uncle's poodle
3) Gripen E: Uncle's turbofan
4) F-15EX: Uncle's plane
5) F-21: Uncle's plane
6) Su-35: Russian maal
7) MiG-35: Russian maal

Which of these are "really" dependable? And equally important, which are these are expendable? None of them are, in varying degrees and for different reasons.

That low-end, dependable fighter is the Tejas Mk2. And yes, due to the shenanigans wrt to the engines...even the most dependable option is now looking unreliable. But this is the reality we are in. So the pyramid has to be complemented with a non-US origin fighter. Looking at the list above, the next dependable option is the Rafale. However she is expensive. So the Govt has to make a tough decision and loosen the purse strings.

They will have to get two acquisitions going i.e. one for Tejas and another for the Rafale.

AMCA is so far ahead in the timeline. Let us first get the basics right. TEDBF has not received even sanction for prototype development. That is not the reality with the Tejas Mk2. Dropping Tejas Mk2 for TEDBF will only further delay the induction of new fighters.

[Rakesh]

...
In theory yes, they should build new pens. But Its just penny pinching and the idea is to reuse existing infrastucture to keep cost down. The air force does not budget them with capital aquisition cost to keep the figure small enough for approval by MOD..

We run to save the pennies on pens which can be built here but don't worry about paying pounds (dollars) for imports. Costly Imports which need costly infra like climate controlled pens.

Brilliant

What is needed are NGHAS, which are coming up at various airbases. Unfortunately happening slowly.

Investing scarce resources to even maintain/upkeep blast pens is not wise.

[Cain Marko]

What do you want the low-end, dependable fighter to be? It has to be a fourth generation fighter. No fifth gen fighter will work here.

It all depends on how bad the GE issue is.

1. If issue can be somehow mitigated:
Low end fighters can be mk1a although the engine is causing jitters. It's ready to roll. Scale it. MLU with kaveri for more dependability. Let MK2 come when kaveri is ready. No point having another "meat and potatoes" fighter at the tender mercies of an unreliable supplier.

Additional rafales, fulcrums and possibly felons are a must. GOI needs to definitely loosen purse strings. Russki maal is looking increasingly tempting tbh (mki is dependable enough. And so are fulcrum upgrades).

2. If engine issue with tejas is impossible to fix because of an unreliable supplier, just buy a combination of rafale and mig35 as a stop gap mix of cheap and high end fighters. Scale down tejas production to a drip (hate to say this, bit I guess ge has already managed this).

For either option, pour money into 1. kaveri and get it going, one way or the other, 2. AMCA.

[Rakesh]

Rs 9000 crore or $ 1.2 billion is earmarked for the programme and not yet spent.

Rs 2,500 crore has already been spent. A sizeable portion of the next tranche (Rs 6,500 crore) has also already been utilized. The first prototype is rolling out in a year or two. These costs cannot be recovered. To move to the HLFT program, new funds will have to be allocated. Knowing how our Govt works, good luck with that happening anytime soon. Even if you transfer the remaining funds from the second tranche from the Mk2 program, more funds will be needed. Let us assume, all this magically and divinely happens. The HLFT-42 is being designed around the GE F414 turbofan.

So we are still stuck at square one ---> delivery schedule delays and now likely cost escalations of the GE 414 turbofan.

[Rakesh]

Low end fighters can be mk1a although the engine is causing jitters. It's ready to roll. Scale it. MLU with kaveri for more dependability. Russki maal is looking increasingly tempting tbh (mki is dependable enough. And so are fulcrum upgrades).

Additional rafales, fulcrums and possibly felons are a must. GOI needs to definitely loosen purse strings.

What is the point of scaling, when GE's delivery schedule is coming in at a rate of 2 turbofans per month and GE is struggling to deliver even one turbofan on time?

Let us entertain the idea of doing MLU with Kaveri, when the Govt sanctions the funds to develop the Kaveri. Till then, that is a fantasy.

[Cain Marko]

Low end fighters can be mk1a although the engine is causing jitters. It's ready to roll. Scale it. MLU with kaveri for more dependability. Russki maal is looking increasingly tempting tbh (mki is dependable enough. And so are fulcrum upgrades).

Additional rafales, fulcrums and possibly felons are a must. GOI needs to definitely loosen purse strings.

What is the point of scaling, when GE's delivery schedule is coming in at a rate of 2 turbofans per month and GE is struggling to deliver even one turbofan on time?

Let us entertain the idea of doing MLU with Kaveri, when the Govt sanctions the funds to develop the Kaveri. Till then, that is a fantasy.

At this point everything seems like fantasy. How is MK2 going to be any less dependent on GE? I'm just racking my brain to figure out what options are there to get it off this boondoggle! Ugh. Admiral sahab kuch toh karo!

[pravula]

What requirements? Show us the agreement/order…

I'm sure there is no Order for even 99.

Exactly. IAF thinks it’s like ordering biryani for takeout. They will order when they are hungry and will leave less than 5 stars if they don’t deliver within 30 min.

Let’s hope that GE doesn’t fire HAL as a customer.

[Rakesh]

Cain-ji, repeat the below like a mantra to yourself...100 times a day...

X-Post from the Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion thread.

As Maitya ji pointed out, leap frogging into 5.x tech will not be possible without mastering 4.x.

Leap frogging from Mk1A to AMCA is not possible.

Ask Lockheed Martin if they could leap frog from the F-16 Block 15 directly to the F-35. They needed all the subsequent blocks of the F-16 to reach the first F-35. And not just technology wise, but equally important scale wise as well. See the number of F-16s made at each block.

Not the asinine way we do things ---> order 36 Mk1s first, then toy with the idea of the Mk1A, then grudgingly accept 83 Mk1As (and whine about how much sacrifice Air HQ is doing by accepting a sub-standard aircraft), then decide to order 97 more of the exact same sub-standard aircraft. Air HQ is adopting the same strategy with the Mk2 as well. Will order 100 in the first tranche and then order a second tranche at a later date.

At this point everything seems like fantasy. How is MK2 going to be any less dependent on GE? I'm just racking my brain to figure out what options are there to get it off this boondoggle! Ugh. Admiral sahab kuch toh karo!

Mk2 is going to be very dependent on GE. No two ways about that. Mitigate that risk by going in for another 4th generation fighter. If there is a more geopolitically reliable and cheaper alternative to the Rafale, please tell me. I am all ears.

[bala]

Though the discussion is on the Chinese new fangled aircraft, this YT has remarks on Tejas and the need to have MK1A, MK2 and then AMCA. Watch around 35 min to around 50 min - Industrial capability and evolution of supply chain parts requires incremental work and substantial orders. India invested properly into the missile segment and currently India is quite self sufficient in the missile arena and their missiles are increasingly sophisticated and world class, with newer, advanced missiles revealed periodically.

Getting a robust industrial aerospace segment is key to India advancing in the fighter jet arena. Considering the economic rise of India in the world this segment requires necessary sustained funding and talent induction to yield fruits.

Saurav Jha with Aadi Achint
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwH7R4fvpQs

[Cain Marko]

Cain-ji, repeat the below like a mantra to yourself...100 times a day...

X-Post from the Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion thread.

As Maitya ji pointed out, leap frogging into 5.x tech will not be possible without mastering 4.x.

Leap frogging from Mk1A to AMCA is not possible.

Ask Lockheed Martin if they could leap frog from the F-16 Block 15 directly to the F-35. They needed all the subsequent blocks of the F-16 to reach the first F-35. And not just technology wise, but equally important scale wise as well. See the number of F-16s made at each block.

Mk2 is going to be very dependent on GE. No two ways about that. Mitigate that risk by going in for another 4th generation fighter. If there is a more geopolitically reliable and cheaper alternative to the Rafale, please tell me. I am all ears.

Re. Leapfrogging
In the context of engines, maityas post makes sense. In the context of tejas to AMCA, not so much. Mk1 itself is a leap over many 4g technologies (carbon composites, aesa, spjj fbw ityadi). MK2 is not anything remotely 5g. No skins, no recessed weapons, no internal bays, no planform alignment. It's a bigger frame, that's it. Decidedly in the same gen as a mk1a. If one were to say this of the TEDBF, at least that might be more reasonable, but MK2?. Btw the Yanks did jump from the f16a/b to the f117, f23, b2, f22. Well before the f35 came along. Like I said, even the Turks, Koreans and Japanese are doing it.

Re. Phoren acquisitions
I'm all for more raffles, Admiral. But the cost just might be a bit much since big numbers will now be needed since tejas output is questionable. I would suggest 54 rafale, 54 fulcrum, 36 pakfa. Cheaper mix of low to high end tech.

[BenG]

Agreed completely which is what makes the engine choice all the more galling! The mirage despite carrying an AL31 sized engine, was always underpowered. Why they heck did they not use an AL31 to power the MK2 when they very well knew that the tejas would come close to mirage weight class anyways? Effing short sightedness. This should've been decided in 2008 itself and today we'd have nlca and tejas all over the place.

DRDO is just like IAF and Indians in general. They take the path with the least resistance to fulfil their organisational mandate. The manadate of DRDO is just build a plane which gaurentees funds, employment for its vendors and scientists. It does not care about geopolitics or national interests. They sometimes mask their organisational self-interest as national interest.

AL31 on Tejas mk2 would have been a completely new aircraft rivalling F-16, J-10 and I dare say Rafale. Tejas mk2 started out as a reengined mk1 with better area ruling and more fuel. Tejas mk2 with AL-31 or current Mirage class Tejas mk2 would have threatened MMRCA and never seen the light of day. It is to DRDO's project management credit that Tejas mk2 morphed into a frankenstein replacment of Mirage 2000 over a period of 10 years. Tejas mk2's original necessity was fulfilled when Tejas mk1a was accepted by IAF during Parrkiar ji's tenure.

But why screw around with hlft when mk1a can plug the numbers? I'm alright with the idea of focusing more on AMCA or even TEDBF in lieu of MK2 so long as more orders for mk1a come in.

Let me elucidate a bit further. I am advocating the same wrt mk1a. We need to keep production of mk1a airframes running and hope GE comes through. Despite HAL/DRDO's track record, we hope they will build mk1a, mk2 and AMCA. We have no other choice but extend that courtesy to GE wrt f404 IN20. I suspect GE is made the scrape goat by desi media on some level. Besides HAL has not delivered the first lot of 8 trainers whose engines were delivered more than 5-10 years ago. The trainers should have been delivered by dec-march 2024 which was well before the engine issue flared up. There is no smoke without fire and I am certain some elements of US administration are playing petty games. So the only long term solution is to certify Kaveri engine with f404 level thrust for at least 1000 hours of operation and get it integrated with Tejas mk1a airframes.

Let MK2 be tied to a more powerful kaveri and come in due time but scale mk1a right now to get the numbers.
When the kaveri is ready, it can be used to not only power AMCA, tejas MK2, but perhaps even reengine the mk1a during an mlu.

For now pump funds into the bird in hand...mk1a (although this is a bit dicey considering the recent getting shenanigans... What a legendary eff up that is), developing kaveri and AMCA. Supplement with silver bullet 5gen force of 36 fighters (unfortunate repeat of 80s but what to do) and a robust, layered ads using voronez/nebo m or whatever.

This is one of the worst periods in AF history. Low end fighters (tejas) are questionable thanks to the engine and high end fighters (rafale) are few and looking increasingly obsolete.

A glorious testament to the unique prowess of stupid decision making by all the stakeholders involved... The AF, the ADA±HAL, the MOD and successive GOI. Circuses are better organized.

Except AMCA, we need to reset our plans with F414. I don't blame GE for cost hike of F414. Its been more than a decade since they submitted their bids.

HF-24 airframe with Kaveri should be enough as HLFT-42. this aircraft will be cheaper than mk1a and based on a proven airframe.

Range limitations of smaller aircraft will not be a problem when we have numbers and force multipliers such as KC-390 refuelers and AWACS in numbers. Such cheaper aircraft will be easier to manufacture using existing technology in the country and good for export prospects as well. we need to rethink our reliance on F414. If the current generation of 5th gen and 6th gen aircraft are defined more by sensors and computer power inside them then it makes sense to have a lot more of mass produced aircraft. The thinking of airfrce in terms of squadron numbers is increasingly becoming outdated with the advent of long range drones and I hope we develop assymetric capabilities against chinese to deter them as well as fight them if need be.

For the immediate needs, we need to do some tried and tested imports. 40 more Su-30 in addition to 12 Su-30 and 36 more Rafale to use the infrastructure that exists for Rafale. No Su-57 for now, it'll kill AMCA.

Rakesh ji, your post about repeating 'mk2 as essential' mantra just hit me like a ton of bricks. It is this line of thinking which allows DRDO to get away with repeted failures. I am sorry for not being to answer to your posts. I got family work now.

[Manish_P]

What is needed are NGHAS, which are coming up at various airbases. Unfortunately happening slowly.

Investing scarce resources to even maintain/upkeep blast pens is not wise.

Yes, sir. Aware of that. I get that it needs a budget too and the IAF tries to avoid putting it under CAPEX in the fear that it will reduce the number of aircraft that will get approved for purchase. Push it under OPEX later and hope it will get passed. This sort of figure juggling is pretty common in the corporate world but at the end of the day it is the owners job to call it out. I have worked in MNC and 'baniya' companies. I never saw this happen under a 'baniya' owner. Come to think of it, maybe that is why we are at where we are now... the current GoI is said to be of 'baniya' disposition

The IAF went and asked to make a fighter with the footprint of the Gen-2 MiG 21s and then cribbed about it being too small and light and not as capable as the larger Gen-4 birds which have a larger & more complex logistical footprint. Now they might well repeat the same by asking for 5 Gen birds. Just imagine the complexity and cost of storage and maintenance hangars for those uber machines, they will be almost mini-manufacturing hubs... all our other poor birds will have to make do by staying out in the open.

[drnayar]

China is unfortunately part of uncles military industrial supply chains especially materials like rare earth's and alloys. Can gurus explain whether this might be part of the problems with GE engine supplies

[ashishvikas]

HAL forms panel to negotiate GE-F414 deal with US, aims to ink it by March 2025

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 231215329/

[Aditya_V]

Good, just like our missile programme started with liquid fueled Prithvi when China and world had moved to solid fuelled missiles in 1990s,our Jet engine requires large-scale production of Tejas 4-4.5 setting large material and production ecosystems before leapfrogging to future generations. I do feel GE problems are.part of Biden admission last throw of the dice before leaving office. Develop our own engine variants, we will always need a few hundred 4.5 generations platforms like every airforce before moving to stealth only platforms.

I feel developing a low radar I eternally weapons carrying platforms is difficult, but the other tech for 5th-6th generations is mature , we can catch up fast.

[Kartik]

For better or for worse, we have to stick with the F414. Too late in the program to switch this to another turbofan.

Same is true with the Tejas Mk1A, which uses the F404. This is just not feasible as this critical juncture.

The situation is dire. We do not have time to waste.

The Govt needs to go all in (multi-pronged approach) for fighters;

1) Tejas Mk1A and Tejas Mk2 in triple digit orders.

2) A foreign fighter to supplement the above.

We cannot rely solely on the Tejas platform, due to the drip feed delivery schedule that is coming from GE. No matter how much we try to spin this, an import is absolutely necessary. The Govt will have to loosen the purse strings.

Absolutely. We are in such a mess of a situation that even if all this is done (which itself is not gonna happen given the kind of political leadership we have), it may not be enough. Tejas Mk1A is held hostage to the F-404 deliveries and we have no other real engine option at this stage. F-414 ToT and local assembly deal has to be signed and signed quickly so that Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA Mk1 don't get delayed any further.

Meanwhile in parallel a MRFA is vital. It is needed to shore up numbers which are simply not possible to be done all by HAL itself. The IAF is flying some 3rd gen fighters even with upgrades, while the PLAAF is moving almost entirely to 4th and 5th gen mix.

An insight into how lightly the Defence Minister and MoD are taking the entire modernisation can be seen from how long they've been taking to take a decision on the strategic partner for the 110 kN turbofan engine. Nearly 2 terms for PM Narendra Modi since when this 110 kN engine has been in negotations and presentations and to date this vital program has still not moved into any contractual negotiations or implementation phase nor has any decision on even choosing a partner been made. It is anyone's guess as to when this engine will actually be delivered. Pathetic situation, mostly thanks to zero political focus on these critical items.

The overall picture is that AMCA needs to be speeded up. But I've never felt more hopeless with the situation we are in. The Defence Minister is a man who has no clue whatsoever on what's happening and has been given this important position purely due to his stature in the BJP, not because he is fit for the role. And the PMO is busy with everything else but trying to address the ever widening gap between PLAAF and IAF and even the PAF's growth in 4th gen fighters and the J-35A.

We'll have to see what comes out of the committee report. They'll discuss it at leisure, maybe take another 3-4 years till the next election cycle comes up and they ignore this topic altogether once more.