Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions: 23 February 2019

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 02 Jun 2020 07:49

What Holds Back Indian Military Aviation Development – Historic Perspective By a Retired Surgeon

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Our own Shiv garu wrote it. The above touches the same points Shiv garu made in this BRF thread long back in 2012 (Must read thread for new BRFites)

==> Link

--Vamsee

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Jun 2020 09:26

Rakesh wrote:Rafale or LCA: Where would a punter put his money on?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/1977891/
01 June 2020

By Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri - The author is an IAF veteran. Views expressed are personal.

Statements like this without context " the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability," seriously rile me.

Apples should be compared to apples.

An article that adds little to the debate...

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Jun 2020 12:56

The last indigenous fighter designed and built in India has been the HF Marut, an excellent piece of aerodynamics, let down by incompatible engines which were borrowed from the Gnat.

I cannot get tired to mentioning that the biggest contribution towards the growth of Indian aerospace industry will be the decision to use F404 engine.

It is most modern engine in IAF arsenal even today, although it has been flying in Indian skies for close to 20 years now!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Jun 2020 13:39

Larry Walker wrote:xxxxx

Dude delete this post.
I was commenting on his ability to write an article.
Not his professional competence as an Air Force vet.
There are a lot of officers who I have great respect for in terms of the commitment and what they have achieved in the uniform but don't necessarily agree with on aspects of indigenisation or tech development. That does not that make them "xxx", "xxx" xxx".
They have formed a view based on their experiences with OFB and DRDO!!!!
When you lose a coursemate because his tank barrel blew up or because his ac crashed due to some manufacturing defect objectivity is a casualty.....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jun 2020 13:47

^ +1. Abusive statements are not acceptable. There are many IAF officials who have supported indigenization at great effort, lets keep that in mind.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 02 Jun 2020 13:56

Ok, sorry, I think I became a little too emotional, but somewhere somehow we have to weed out all the desh-drohis linked to national security and defence procurement and make them pay for what they have done in terms of severely undermining the security and integrity of this nation just to make quick bucks and get foreign jaunts. They are no less that JaiChand and MirJafars who opened the gates from within.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Jun 2020 14:04

Vamsee wrote:What Holds Back Indian Military Aviation Development – Historic Perspective By a Retired Surgeon
=======
Our own Shiv garu wrote it. The above touches the same points Shiv garu made in this BRF thread long back in 2012 (Must read thread for new BRFites) ==> Link

--Vamsee

I have seen it in action many times myself and have heard of this being applied everywhere in the world in the western economies.
During spring time when its the time to plant tomatoes, Supermarkets drop the price of tomatoes of the said vegetable below the price of seedlings for 6 weeks. By doing this they ensure they have guaranteed customers for 46 weeks.

This is not a gora vs brown thing. Its a commercial thing.

Its time to plant our own seedlings and persist. People will drop the price of engine, other tech and airframe to ensure the indigenous child is still born.

Yes I grow my own tomatoes in abundance and freeze enough to last me throughout the winter too for my tarka etc.
I buy only for the Rafale salad.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 02 Jun 2020 16:11

If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.

ashishvikas wrote:LCA Tejas configuration - Max range 2000Km

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 91200?s=20

veejey · Post by **veejey** » 02 Jun 2020 16:21

Don't know when this happened. It definately makes one proud about indigenous product.

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/126 ... 38528?s=19

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Jun 2020 16:36

W-o-W

Just keeps proving itself everytime it is asked to.

Our little bird is destined to be a falcon slayer

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Jun 2020 16:40

Karan M wrote:^ +1. Abusive statements are not acceptable. There are many IAF officials who have supported indigenization at great effort, lets keep that in mind.

Even if they have not it is not any reason to call them names...Once bitten.....
There is still a generation of offers who have had to bear the brunt of the OFB...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 02 Jun 2020 16:50

Which is why I said abusive statements are not acceptable.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 02 Jun 2020 17:10

Rakesh wrote:Rafale or LCA: Where would a punter put his money on?
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/1977891/
01 June 2020

By Wing Commander Amit Ranjan Giri - The author is an IAF veteran. Views expressed are personal.

Rakesh ji, Hope you will excuse this off-topic post from me but the title of your post was too much of co-incidence for me. Recently or so a business acquaintance of mine who does a lot of betting on cricket, told me that a punter (bookie) known to him had very recently actually accepted bets on the next IAF vs PAF 'match'. And i kid you not - this acquaintance has actually put a long term bet on a IAF kill of a PAF bird before 2024 at not too high odds. I think with the LOC hotting up and if COVID continues to keep sports events in limbo the satta market might actually start accepting bets on things like Tejas vs Thunder, first kill by? - Sukhoi, Rafale, MiG etc

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2020 17:15

veejey wrote:Don't know when this happened. It definately makes one proud about indigenous product.

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/126 ... 38528?s=19

Gp Capt MJA Vinod(retd)
@MjaVinod
·
2h
Let me tell you as a pilot
Measure of performance of an aeroplane is my yardstick
We have annual weapon delivery competition in the #IAF
In the first ever competition that #Tejas participated in, it bagged trophy in most of the disciplines
I rest my case
#MMRCA #FGFA

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2020 17:24

Kartik wrote: There is no major difference between the Tejas trainer and single seaters except for the forward fuselage. So, a third line could be used to deliver Tejas single seaters as well, once the trainers are delivered.

I think HAL is thinking ahead for the 3rd line to continue as a trainer production especially if the SPORT variant gets orders. Easily a potential of 40-80 units from the IAF/IN I would think (if money available) for Operational Flying Training Units.

The other would be limited production orders for NLCA. Potential orders of 8-16 units there as well from the IN.

veejey · Post by **veejey** » 02 Jun 2020 19:03

srai wrote:
Kartik wrote: There is no major difference between the Tejas trainer and single seaters except for the forward fuselage. So, a third line could be used to deliver Tejas single seaters as well, once the trainers are delivered.
I think HAL is thinking ahead for the 3rd line to continue as a trainer production especially if the SPORT variant gets orders. Easily a potential of 40-80 units from the IAF/IN I would think (if money available) for Operational Flying Training Units.

The other would be limited production orders for NLCA. Potential orders of 8-16 units there as well from the IN.

Apart from that Tejas can be an attractive proposition for exports to friendly countries. This can be achieved only when requirement of IAF is fulfilled. 3rd line can certainly address that.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 02 Jun 2020 19:28

One can't export what one can't procure. It flies on American engine. Even India doesn't know that there will be enough supply of engines given many milestones that India needs to achieve that US doesn't prefer.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2020 19:55

^^^
License production of F-404/414 needs to be pursued given few hundred units requirement over the next two decades.

And also an export license agreement for imported parts/engines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2020 20:50

Gyan wrote:If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.

I remember IR once saying something similar with regards to the bolded part. I have to find that post, which is like finding a needle in a haystack. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but if IR sees this...perhaps he can state it again.

Once thing is certain ----> there is more space for the Mk1A beyond the 123 Tejas (40 Mk1s which will be converted into Mk1A + 83 Mk1As on order). That realization will dawn once the Mk1A flies. If someone can write up an opinion piece - providing data to back it up - I will add it on the first page.

A production run of 200 Tejas Mk1A (in total) will make it a successful program for India. Minus the 123 order and you are left with 77 aircraft or around 4 units. It is definitely doable. Additional Mk1As will come, the only sticking point is how many.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2020 20:57

ks_sachin wrote:Statements like this without context " the Rafale leaves the LCA far behind when compared for technological upgrades and combat capability," seriously rile me.

Apples should be compared to apples.

An article that adds little to the debate...

The Wing Commander makes a good case for additional Tejas orders, where in the latter part of the same sentence above he states, ".... but where the smart man would bet his money is on the homegrown LCA."

He makes the point of Rafale vs Tejas, to counter the argument that additional phoren MMRCA are needed in triple digits because the IAF does not want to adopt Tejas in large numbers. The bulk of the fleet will be Tejas, with silver bullets like the Rafale. There is no money for 114 phoren fighters. That is not going to happen.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jun 2020 21:06

I don't think we will go very much ahead of 83 LCA MK1A (or I am hoping we don't). It will take some 5-6 years for 83 LCA MK1A. I hope MWF (LCA mk2) is ready by then and the 114 MMCRA circus is put in dustbin for good. Else any delay, MMCRA becomes a reality and it eats up both MK1A and MK2 numbers, maybe kill MK2 for good.
To balance out and IAF have tech edge, more Rafale has to be ordered, maybe another 36?

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2020 21:15

^^^
MWF (and MMRCA 2.0) will take more than 6 years to develop/procure and build up numbers. These are targets that will likely be much more closer to 2030 (or post 2030) than 2025.

In the meantime, India should plan for a good decade of LCA Mk1/A production run to bridge any gaps and delays. That would mean around 10-12 squadrons of Tejas by 2030.

With 13 squadrons of “heavy” Su-30MKI and 10-12 squadrons of “light” Tejas Mk1/A all set by 2030, the subsequent 2030-2040 period will all be about replacing 12 squadrons of “medium” category combat aircraft.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2020 21:27

HAL will soon have three Tejas lines, the Tejas Mk2 will not get inducted in IAF service within 5 - 6 years, all the MiG-21 Bisons will have retired by then and MMRCA will not be anywhere close to completion (assuming the contest gets underway) in that time frame. Another 36 Rafales will likely come, but the squadron strength will still be low.

If the IAF wants to wait for unobtanium (i.e. 114 MMRCA), then how dire is the squadron strength situation? You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 02 Jun 2020 21:38

Rakesh wrote: You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.

Sadly this is the likeliest outcome, unless the thinking is transformed

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2020 22:11

Fanne, read below....

https://twitter.com/ninadkulkarni2/stat ... 62757?s=20 ---> Do you think the current leadership is still thinking about MMRCA?

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 22625?s=20 ---> It seems like the CDS is against it, but IAF leadership who have had MMRCA in their future force structure plans for over 20 years need more convincing it seems. Let LCA be operationalised and MK1A deliver and reality will then bite.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 52802?s=20 ---> Indeed true. So let’s hope that MMRCA 2.0 is just a hedge in case LCA MK.2 is delayed. However by accounting for MMRCA 2.0 in future force structure inherently limits the commitments and projections that can be given for LCA Mk2s.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 30528?s=20 ---> This is the paradox of the situation. CAS speaks of inducting MMRCA 2.0 but other than a RFI there’s been ZERO progress on this front in the last 5 years - NONE. Given we know how exhaustive these deals are, it seems asinine to suggest this could be viable before MWF.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 62240?s=20 ---> I think it will continue for maybe another 3-4 years. By that time, Rafales will be delivered and Mk1A will be in production. Then MMRCA 2.0 will be silently forgotten like that short lived “single engine fighter” (Gripen vs F16) idea a few years back.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 09600?s=20 ---> “Perfection is the enemy of good enough.” For all of IAF’s history they have been importing mature foreign products and thus have not had the inclination to be a “builders air force” to work with industry. They expected a mature and fully developed platform from Day 1.

srai · Post by **srai** » 02 Jun 2020 22:17

^^^
If India had a defense export outlook, it would be mass producing LCA MK.1/A for the IAF ... and when something better comes along from the domestic pipeline, Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).

But sadly India still thinks like a number one arms importer by limiting domestic orders in piecemeal manner without understanding MIC requires sustained spending to feed the ecosystem. Orders of 36 import for Rafale should be viewed differently than 40 units of indigenous LCA. It’s no way to fund and establish indigenous efforts.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Jun 2020 22:21

srai wrote:...Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).

Like how Pakistan gets F-16s via "baksheesh" from Jordan with blessings from Unkil?

And also like how Pakistan upgrades her early model F-16s from Turkey, again with blessing from Unkil?

But because it is F-16....it is phoren (American) and so it is good

We SDREs must never aim to think like this.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Jun 2020 23:48

Rakesh wrote:
srai wrote:...Mk.1 get “donated” to lesser countries as friendship gesture (and money recouped through decades of after-gift spare parts, maintenance, training and weapons contracts).
Like how Pakistan gets F-16s via "baksheesh" from Jordan with blessings from Unkil?

And also like how Pakistan upgrades her early model F-16s from Turkey, again with blessing from Unkil?

But because it is F-16....it is phoren (American) and so it is good We SDREs must never aim to think like this.

Maybe we should keep a couple dozen half built airframes in some warehouse for 20 years and then offer sell the them completed for nearly the same price of a new one - if someone bites, that will be the day India truly arrives on the world scene

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Jun 2020 23:50

Just for reference putting it out here..

Chinis J10 & Su27 knock off J11 flew in 1998, when they were 1T GDP.

By 2006, they were 2.75T GDP and had inducted both of the jets.

We are 3T GDP now. And so far we have inducted 17 fighters. And have been complaining about lack of money.

The Chinese had a larger population than us, per capita wise poorer than us at the same GDP.

By the time we have inducted 100 jet (in 2028), same as probably what the Chinis did when they were less than 2T GDP.. we would close to 5T, if not more.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 00:19

A better point of reference would be how much money does China allocate for defence versus India.

If India truly aspires to be regional power, she has to increase her defence budget and invest significantly more in R&D and production of defence equipment. Whenever we hit 5T, matters little if India spends little on defence.

basant · Post by **basant** » 03 Jun 2020 00:20

Rakesh wrote:
Gyan wrote:If LCA has Range of 2000km with 900kg bomb load in hi-hi-hi ideal flight path, speed then I think LCA may reasonably have range of 1200km with 2000 kg bomb load in lo-lo-hi flight path. This would mean that it can take certain roles from even Jaguar.
I remember IR once saying something similar with regards to the bolded part. I have to find that post, which is like finding a needle in a haystack. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but if IR sees this...perhaps he can state it again.
...

Sir, I recently posted HVT and AM Nambiar praising Tejas, where HVT explicitly praised it vis-a-vis Jaguar. I am convinced that LCA should not just be compared with Mig-21 to make a point but to Jaguar as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 00:22

Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!

basant · Post by **basant** » 03 Jun 2020 00:30

Rakesh wrote:Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!

Happy to be of any use sir. Also I found the needle perhaps you were looking for, courtesy Google. There are interesting discussions on comparison with Jaguar. It would be great if any of the concerned gurus like IR, tsarkar, JayS who then discussed it may give any non-sensitive updates.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jun 2020 00:42

Rakesh wrote:HAL will soon have three Tejas lines, the Tejas Mk2 will not get inducted in IAF service within 5 - 6 years, all the MiG-21 Bisons will have retired by then and MMRCA will not be anywhere close to completion (assuming the contest gets underway) in that time frame. Another 36 Rafales will likely come, but the squadron strength will still be low.

If the IAF wants to wait for unobtanium (i.e. 114 MMRCA), then how dire is the squadron strength situation? You cannot have it both ways - highlight the low squadron strength and then wait 12 years (*AFTER* the contract is signed) to induct 114 fighters.

Rakesh, Sandeep Unnithan didn't mention where the third line will be located, right? Possibly Nashik, where the Su-30MKI line will be going idle?

It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

Although I'm hoping that the Tejas Mk2 development completes on time and production starts by 2028, one would need to be a little cautious with the timelines.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 00:45

basant wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Dude, you rock. I am adding all those tweets on Page 1. And also Air Marshal Nambiar's excerpt. EXCELLENT!!!!!!
Happy to be of any use sir. Also I found the needle perhaps you were looking for, courtesy Google. There are interesting discussions on comparison with Jaguar. It would be great if any of the concerned gurus like IR, tsarkar, JayS who then discussed it may give any non-sensitive updates.

Aiyoo! Please do not call me Sir.

Page 1 updated. Please check. Given you credit as well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 05:14

Kartik wrote:Rakesh, Sandeep Unnithan didn't mention where the third line will be located, right? Possibly Nashik, where the Su-30MKI line will be going idle?

From IDRW...for what it is worth.

I read somewhere - a few years back - that setting up a Tejas production line costs anywhere between $200 to $250 million. Looking at the big picture, that is peanuts IMVHO.

Tejas Fighter Jet to get Third Production Line soon
https://idrw.org/tejas-fighter-jet-to-g ... line-soon/

30,000 sq meters of HAL land have been used near Nekkundi to set up a third production line for the Tejas fighter jet which is equipped with structural assembly hangar, process shop, and sheet metal shop, among others.

HAL also has offered to establish fourth Tejas Production line in its Nashik Unit which was previously used to make Sukhoi-30MKI locally under Russian license if IAF wanted a faster deliveries schedule which will take the production of Tejas Mk1A to 20 aircraft per annum if fourth production line is also activated by 2023 but IAF is yet to confirm need for fourth production line but it is possible that it might be used as production line for MWF-Tejas Mk2 in near future.

===============================================

Kartik wrote:It is likely that as deliveries of Tejas Mk1A begin and IAF gets a taste of it's capabilities, they may add 1 more squadron of Tejas Mk1A as a bridge between Mk1A and Mk2 towards.

Although I'm hoping that the Tejas Mk2 development completes on time and production starts by 2028, one would need to be a little cautious with the timelines.

Additional Tejas Mk1A units will come and it could be the very scenario that you mentioned above. The Mk2 will be delayed, but to be expected. Any project of this scale will get delayed. The optimist in me says around 1 - 2 years delay in total, but I could be way off the mark.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 05:22

The Nekkundi location is confirmed by another source....but not sure how reliable they are. Will wait for official confirmation before adding on page 1.

https://twitter.com/NewsLineIFE/status/ ... 05856?s=20 ---> Major Boost for Indian Air Power! HAL is on its way to establish a third production line for the Tejas Fighter Jet by end of November. Will be used to manufacture initially 18 Twin Seater LCA Trainers. 30,000 square meters land have been used near Nekkundi for third production line.

But I believe the picture looks this...

• Line 1 (LCA Division): 8 aircraft per year
• Line 2 (Aircraft Division): 4 aircraft per year
• Line 3* (Nekkundi Division): 4 aircraft per year
• Line 4^ (Current Sukhoi Line): 4 aircraft per year

*Under Construction
^Proposed

If all four lines are functioning to full capacity, we are looking at 20 aircraft per year.

At that rate, the 83 Mk1A order can be fulfilled in a little over 4 years.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 05:29

If this prediction of mine goes awry, rub my nose in the ground and feed me crow soup (but please do not remind me of mithai) ----> Tejas Mk1A is going to go beyond the 83 aircraft on order now and it will be the IAF who will be asking the MoD to order more units. And this new order will come once the Mk1A gets inducted into the IAF. Mark this date and mark my post.

* Elta AESA radar (or as Dileep Saar puts it...optical vs digital zoom)
* Air-to-Air armament of Derby, Astra, Python 5, etc.
* Air-to-Ground armament (local and phoren)
* Air-to-Air Refueling

BISON, MiG-27 and Jaguar pilots will love her. The noise - to order more - will come from them onlee.

P.S. And when this prediction turns out to be correct, we will all win. Starch your lungis.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 03 Jun 2020 05:41

Rakesh Sir, 40 MK1 conversion to MK1A is not counted in the rub my nose/crow soup challenge

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 03 Jun 2020 05:44

No Sir for me

I thought the conversion was already on the cards no?