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Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 11:51
by shyamd
The army hasn't declared its position yet other than it will support the egyptian people.
The brutality has come directly from the egyptian police which appears to be loyal to Mubarak.
The army has stayed neutral so far.

What I am saying is, if they are going to march to the palace, the presidential guard is either going to fire and kill protestors or open the gates.
So, in effect its becoming decision time for the army... Although I ecpect the presidential guard to be Mubarak loyalist.

The turning point will come when state employees or the army dump Mubarak. He's survivng because he has monetary, international support,
His party and the army haven't told him to go away yet. Why would he leave?

I really think yesterdays rumours were psy-ops program. What was the objective, to let the army declare their position?

Added later: this event will further damage the US-GCC relationship. King A must be thinking, mubarak has been loyal for 3 decades and as soon
As he got into trouble Obama has dumped him. This could be me one day, and the US will dump me too.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 11:57
by shyamd
Sri wrote:I feel Mubarak is living in a bubble. My bet is that Army has given up on him. Look at the way the area of protest is growing. If Army wanted they had enough opportunity to crack down. Just that Military leaders still feel some guilt in turning against Mubarak, so they are letting the people do the talking.
It seems like he is living in a bubble. But he doesn't care about the masses. He only cares about his cronies, his 'big men', who are his real constituents.
The NDP members, loyalists are the elite and I imagine the egyptian govt spending would be siphoned by these people, to buy support.
Now Mubarak's coalition is going to expand, that's all.

GCC? Tick. Aid? Tick. NDP cronies? Tick. Army? Tick. Now he can tell anyone to F off.
Mubarak will do anything to satisfy these parties.
Another thing shows that, bad domestic policy and good foreign policy will suffice.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:14
by Vivek Raghuvanshi
Al Arabiya says Mubarak, family leave Cairo

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 476611.cms

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:37
by RajeshA
shyamd wrote:Added later: this event will further damage the US-GCC relationship. King A must be thinking, mubarak has been loyal for 3 decades and as soon
As he got into trouble Obama has dumped him. This could be me one day, and the US will dump me too.
The good thing for King Abdullah is that the only opposition to him is either from amongst the 7000 strong Royal family or from Al Qaeda branch of Wahhabism. Another Royal is not attractive to Washington and the other opposition is an avowed enemy to America.

I think, Americans would look upon the King differently. The King has a much broader constituency than Mubarak.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 18:46
by Muppalla
Mubarak has left Egypt, says Iranian TV:
Iranian state-run Press TV quoted Egyptian Presidential sources as saying that Hosni Mubarak has left the country to an undisclosed destination and that his television address last night was taped.
The US-based Al-Hurra TV too has reported that Mubarak had left Egypt for the United Arab Emirates.
However, there haven't been an official word on it.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 20:20
by shyamd
RajeshA wrote:
shyamd wrote:Added later: this event will further damage the US-GCC relationship. King A must be thinking, mubarak has been loyal for 3 decades and as soon
As he got into trouble Obama has dumped him. This could be me one day, and the US will dump me too.
The good thing for King Abdullah is that the only opposition to him is either from amongst the 7000 strong Royal family or from Al Qaeda branch of Wahhabism. Another Royal is not attractive to Washington and the other opposition is an avowed enemy to America.

I think, Americans would look upon the King differently. The King has a much broader constituency than Mubarak.
Thats fine and thats why King A is still in power. But talk of the town is that King A told a special emissary sent by Washington to see him to F OFF by refusing to see him. This was after a phone call between King A and Obama. Word is that King A was extremely unhappy with the US policy in the region, especially in Egypt and that was conveyed to Obama directly.

Also, do pay attention to discreet news that Iranian war ships have paid their first visit to Jeddah! I think this is the first shot at the US from KSA.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8911171494

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 20:38
by Muppalla
shyamd wrote: Thats fine and thats why King A is still in power. But talk of the town is that King A told a special emissary sent by Washington to see him to F OFF by refusing to see him. This was after a phone call between King A and Obama. Word is that King A was extremely unhappy with the US policy in the region, especially in Egypt and that was conveyed to Obama directly.

Also, do pay attention to discreet news that Iranian war ships have paid their first visit to Jeddah! I think this is the first shot at the US from KSA.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8911171494
Pres Obama is trying achieve what he cannot achieve via congress. If the theories are correct, his target is conservatives via Middle East where one after another puppet regimes collapse. Time tested alliances with both Israel and OIL will be changed.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:00
by ramana
Last night CNN seemed to be hoping for a spectacular crash and burn of the Egypt regime and was sorely disappointed when nothing of that sort happened. All those British accent anchors on CNN are jarring as they don't appear to be looking at American interests and are informing based on some mythical British know best. CNN now has British accent anchor reproting on local stories in US!

The worst part is there are no Arab language interpreters to work on the problem. Next no understanding experts. All experts have some bias in studying the problem: neocons, paleocons, Arab haters, Sunni haters. Then they throw an Iranian hater to add masala.

CNN had a one expert Reza Aslan, by his name he could be Persio-Turk. How understanding/perceptive will he be of the Sunni Egypt, the cradle of the Arab world? 8)

They need to ask the right experrts. Then there is the old foggy Fouad Ajami who I don't think has clue of the Arab world as he is Beltway bandit. Any crisis in Middle eas tehy dust him off. He showed up even during Indian nuclear tests!

Anyway Mubarak appaers to have gone to S-e-S and left day to day running to Suleiman. So he made himself a figure head President. This caused consternation for Wolf Blitzer when the Egytpian Amassador expalined to him. He was dumbstruck and refusing to believe the news. Showing perosnal bias. The US media wants him to be Ceauşescued.

Now the whole gamut of Monday morning quarterbacks are blaming prediction software programs for not seeing the issue. What happened to Mark 1 version called human brain? You need to see the results and interpret them.

Pentagon Prediction Software missed Egypt unrest

RamaY, Our friend Mesquita is here but not blamed.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:05
by SwamyG
In all these discussions, the Wiki leaks about Saudi Arabia and its statement about Oil has been pushed to back burner.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:10
by amdavadi
Mubarak gone, whose next? :lol: :lol:

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:12
by SwamyG
ramana wrote:last night CNN seemed to be hoping for a spectacular crash and burn of the Egypt regime and was sorely disappointed when noting of that sort happened.
I got the same sense watching MSNBC. Chris Matthews seemed to be missing the regime change. It was not happening fast enough for him, and he twisted that to "change not happening fast enough for the people". MSNBC also reported White House was caught off-guard, they did not know how to respond when Mubs did not step down yesterday.

All this hungama started by a Tunisian self-immolation? Tough to imagine.

ps: Can a few agints sneak in a few pictures of MK Gandhi and display it during the protests? If they can pick the self-immolation thingie from S.E.Asia, if MLK Jr could use MKG, why not these folks too, huh?

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:13
by ramana
amdavadi wrote:Mubarak gone, whose next? :lol: :lol:

SHQ praying its Kiyani and his gang.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:18
by Sri
Mubarak gone ... Army council to run Egypt as per BBC....

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 21:55
by Philip
Going,going,gone! Mubarak packing his bags as the Army takes control.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -live.html#

Egypt protests: live
Follow live events in Egypt as Omar Suleiman announces that Hosni Mubarak is to step down and hand his powers to the military.
Omar Suleiman said Mr Mubarak, who earlier left Cairo for Sharm el-Sheikh, has handed control to the military.

Car horns were heard around the capital in celebration following the announcement.

Crowds in Cairo's Tahrir Square chanted: "The people have brought down the regime."

"In these grave circumstances that the country is passing through, President Hosni Mubarak has decided to leave his position as president of the republic," Mr Suleiman said. "He has mandated the Armed Forces Supreme Council to run the state. God is our protector and succor."

Mohammed ElBaradei, one of Egypt's key opposition leaders, said: "This is the greatest day of my life.
PS:Note El Baradei's lust for Mubarak's throne!

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 22:21
by Muppalla
Okay we will discuss Egypt on the sidelines of this thread in the coming days. :) Now what next. Tunisa gone, Egypt gone, then who next... I wish it is Syria or/and Jordon. I also wish all these countries with purest democracy.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 22:24
by ramana
I would like to bring some structure and process to the predcition game. I think we should assigning probablities low, medium and high to the scenario outcome being envionsed. A short four or five line summary of why would be required.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 22:30
by amdavadi
Alright people are already getting ready for green revolution in iran. Main opposition party in iran call for strike on monday.


pakis cant be far behind...

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 23:11
by Karna_A
Will the mighty Pyramids go the way of Bamiyan Buddhas?. Remember BRF, You first heard it here and now.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/02/ ... rhood-win/#
According to the most recent data available, the Egyptian people are strongly favorable towards the Muslim Brotherhood. A study conducted in 2009 by WorldPublicOpinion.org shows that 64 percent have positive views of the Muslim Brotherhood, while just 16 percent have negative views. Nineteen percent said they have mixed views. An even larger majority, 69 percent, believes that the Muslim Brotherhood favors democracy. Just 22 percent believe they are too extreme and not genuinely democratic.
Any period before seventh century is jahilya period. So it would not be surprising if Egyptian army howitzers are turned on Pyramids in next 5-10 years. Of course it'll leave Egypt a Nile big hole in its foreign exchange earnings, apart from erasing Egyptian civilization in favor of Arab imperialism.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 23:20
by rohiths
Don't think they are like Taliban although they will have higher affiliation to ROP

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 11 Feb 2011 23:52
by Singha
HM was reportedly preparing to head for germany anyway on extended LOA for medical checkup and recuperation. germany has a nice tradition of resorts and spas where the concept of walking around nook nanga in carefully screened lush green grounds was pioneered to heal stress and other ailments.

perhaps silvio berloscuni will join the deposed leader there soon :)

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 00:05
by brihaspati
What is interesting is the similarity to the Iranian uprising - in which "liberals", left-centre activists started the public uprising, which was used perhaps by both Americans and Khomeini to remove the Shah. The army played an exact same role - with allegations of US hand in its neutralization and playing shy, and later coming out in support of the "revolution". Afterwards the Marxists/liberals were chopped off, leaving the field clear for Khomeini. Perhaps even the play-acting over the embassy-seizure and the subsequent secret Contra-deal was all part of the ball-game.

So if the same route has been used by Obama, or "segments" within US administration, it means that the non-MB part of the Egyptian uprising is likely to face selective punitive measures, so that the MB can come in - in a big way.

What it can mean is that USA or at least dominant parts of it has decided to finally ditch Israel, and the best way for doing it is to instigate or support the public demonstration of dissatisfaction with current regimes in the Muslim ME which have in the past been corralled into coming to an understanding with Israel.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 00:06
by brihaspati
MB could be worse than Taliban - in the sense that they understand how so-called democratic processes work, and could actually gain a formal legitimation that would be hard for outside powers to dispute.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 00:17
by AKalam
ramana ji, there is a simple solution to the TV and Cable Mainstream Media bias, I get my news from either the Internet or when I am driving, from KPFK listener sponsored Pacifica Radio, of Amy Goodman and Democracy Now fame. Of all the news media, they seem to be the most in touch with situation on the ground, admittedly they do have a leftist bias. Sonali Kohatkar, Amy's colleague, plays a major role there with her Uprising Radio:

http://www.kpfk.org/programs/152-uprising.html
http://www.museumfire.com/love.htm

On this auspicious day, as a humble soul from the subcontinent, I want to salute the people of Egypt, for taking a step in the right direction following the examples of Nonviolent Resistance taught by our native son of the soil MKG, who showed to the world that Nonviolence can be more effective a force than violence, specially in populist democratic uprising like the one we just witnessed.

Much is left to be seen, but what started as a betrayal against the (unbearably over-bearing) Turks in WW I, the Sykes Picot agreement, the dividing up of the Ottoman provinces into little Kingdoms, Hasan Al Banna, Syed Qutb rising up in revolt with a wrong and misguided ideology of Islamism and their followers such as Zwahiri wreaking havoc with their corrosive ideas in cooperation with the Najdi Wahhabi Saudis (also known as later day Kharijites), now may finally become a marginalized force. It might be the beginning of the end of an era. Hopefully the poison peddlers will now be reigned in as the Arab civilization have finally found its lost voice and dignity it seems. Egypt is the largest domino to fall, Iran is the other big one in the region, but to remove the entrenched Mullahcracy of Iran will be much more difficult. The Tin Pots in the smaller countries however must take note, if they do not go for sufficient reforms, their days are numbered. The ossified must make way for the new generation to take their place and play their reinvigorating role in social progress.

Pakistan may be affected, but our confounded subcontinent is a whole another story as they say. But we can always hope that the latter day wannabe Arabs and Arab clones will take note of what just happened.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 00:22
by ramana
OK Nightwatch comments. Quite long.


Nightwatch, 2/11/11

Egypt: 11 February is the Day of Confrontation. The evolution of the action should help clarify the actors. The international buildup leading almost everyone to expect Mubarak's resignation has intensified outrage over his refusal to resign. Violence is likely.

President Mubarak did not step down as President in his 10 February speech but said that a consensus was reached with the armed forces and the opposition on a roadmap (emphasis added) and specific timetable for constitutional reform.

Mubarak said two committees were set up, one to consider constitutional amendments and another to examine his commitments to the people. In response to the constitutional committee's proposals, Mubarak said in accordance with article 89 he recommended changes to articles 76, 77, 88, 93 and 189 as well as the abolition of article 179. The abolition of article 179 should balance the citizens' freedom with protection from terrorism, he said.

Mubarak said he had tasked Vice President Omar Suleiman with implementing the reforms and transferred some of his power (emphasis added) to Suleiman in accordance with the constitution.

Comment: The obvious inferences are that official Egyptian liaison channels misled top US government officials and the international press; were not as well informed as they professed; or Mubarak double-crossed his handlers for any number of reasons. A senior Egyptian general promised the demonstrators in Cairo that they would get everything they sought today.

So this was a historic day, if only for the magnitude of missteps, misstatements and confusion in multiple governments. Clearly one senior Egyptian general in Cairo misspoke in addressing the crowds, as events turned out.

One Brilliant and well-informed Reader noted that by doing his apparent double-cross, Mubarak and his cronies will have smoked out and identified his enemies and their allies.

The day was a turning point for the protestors because it is now clear that only coercion will remove Mubarak. The scenario of a peaceful hostile takeover has run its course. This is a compression situation. They always explode. Yesterday the People's Assembly building and the state TV station were mentioned as targets for storming by protestors.

Mubarak's statement contained some clues about some of the political maneuvering. The first bold statement above, about a military and opposition consensus and road map, is the language of power sharing. The opposition, not otherwise identified is the Muslim Brotherhood, an inference supported by Essam El-Errian's essay in the New York Times on 10 February, which is addressed below. Their long term interests do not look congruent, but in the short term neither profits from a fundamental change of the political system, the definition of a revolution.

Article 2 of the Constitution states "Islam the Religion of the state… and the principal source of its legislation is Islamic Jurisprudence (Sharia)." (source: Egypt's Government Services Portal-Egypt Constitution) This language was inserted pursuant to the plebiscite on the constitutional amendment on 22 May 1980. The point is that the framework already exists for the Brotherhood to join the government. Their goal would be to insist a new government adheres to the Constitution as amended.

Mubarak's statement does not indicate he approves of the arrangement only that it exists and its purpose is to reform the constitution, which includes making public practice match the law of the land. What is clear in context is that he is taking credit for it as President of the Republic.

The second bold quote contains coded language. Article 82 is the article that empowers the President to "delegate" his powers to a Vice President due to a "temporary obstacle" that prevents him from carrying out his duties.

Article 84 deals with permanent vacancy or disability. It designates the Speaker of the People's Assembly as the interim President, responsible for arranging elections in 60 days, pursuant to another article, Article 78. Ahmad Fathi Sorour is the Speaker since 1991. He is a Mubarak lackey.

The President may appoint more than one Vice President and delegate their powers and jurisdiction, pursuant to Article 139. The Vice President(s) is not an elected official. Neither is the Prime Minister, whom Article 141 stipulates "the President of the Republic shall appoint…"

Mubarak has surrendered no authority; he has delegated it owing to the "temporary obstacle," to a subordinate who has no authority to succeed him, assuming the government follows the constitution. Juridically, the actions of Vice President Suleiman are the actions of Mubarak.

Mubarak mentioned in "accordance with the constitution." If the constitution is followed strictly, the Mubarak regime will not terminate immediately even if Mubarak died in office. The constitution is written for an autocratic leader and system in every article related to wielding power. Egypt cannot have a representative democracy while this document survives as it is now. It contains no checks and balances on the President.

Security. The central security office in Rafh was attacked with a rocket-propelled grenade, Al Arabiya reported. No damage was reported, oddly.

Tens of thousands of Egyptian workers held nationwide strikes on 10 February to demand wage increases and to oppose President Mubarak's regime, Agence France-Presse reported. Private and public sector entities were impacted, according to unions.

Some 3,000 health workers in Cairo marched to join anti-regime protesters who have blockaded parliament and occupied Tahrir Square. A security official reported that thousands in the public sector were striking in Alexandria, Suez and cities on the north coast and on the Red Sea.

Comment: This is the first reported use of an RPG since 25 January. It has not been reported by any other news service, but others have reported troubles in Rafh.

With the news focus on Tahrir Square and the President, most services have neglected to report on workers' strikes or job actions. A second day of more and more widespread workers' strikes is a portent of unrest that is not part of the Tahrir Square action.


The Brotherhood.

A member of the guidance council of the Muslim Brotherhood, Essam El-Errian, published in the New York Times on 10 February an essay about the intentions, goals and values of the Brotherhood and its reluctant participation in dialogue with the Egyptian government. El Errian wrote that Islam shares and incorporates western values and asserted that the Brotherhood is committed to them for all Egyptians. He denied the Brothers have a political agenda but the following two paragraphs are the most instructive and are repeated below:

"As our nation heads toward liberty, however, we disagree with the claims that the only options in Egypt are a purely secular, liberal democracy or an authoritarian theocracy. Secular liberal democracy of the American and European variety, with its firm rejection of religion in public life, is not the exclusive model for a legitimate democracy.

In Egypt, religion continues to be an important part of our culture and heritage. Moving forward, we envision the establishment of a democratic, civil state that draws on universal measures of freedom and justice, which are central Islamic values. We embrace democracy not as a foreign concept that must be reconciled with tradition, but as a set of principles and objectives that are inherently compatible with and reinforce Islamic tenets."


El Essian uses "civil" instead of "secular." They are not the same. Despite a misstatement by a US official today, the Brotherhood is not a secular entity. The essay is intended to reassure. The clear implication is that an Islamic republic is the Brotherhood's station stop on the democracy "streetcar" line.


Overall assessment: Mubarak's admission about the armed forces and opposition consensus is the first confirmation that a power sharing agreement has been reached. That is the direction of the next steps. The armed forces appear to be acting without the blessing of Mubarak. This looks like a military-backed takeover in preparation abetted by the now respectable Brotherhood.

The guns - the Army --will now have to decide who will lead the country. Moreover, a power sharing agreement with the Brotherhood suggests that some leadership echelons of the armed forces have become more devout, as in the Pakistan Army.

Another paroxysm of violence is likely which means that the two sides are still converging, while testing each other's position and strength in the final power sharing arrangement. Egypt is heading towards a government that will have a much more prominent role in government for Islam.

The outlier in the scenario remains the odd and sudden emergence of the workers and farmers in the movement. They work for the state enterprises and do not seem part of the inner circle of schemers in Cairo. They represent another level of action whose implications might be benign, but are not clear yet.

A final concern is the RPG round, if one was fired, because that is an Army weapon and a signature weapon of insurgents.


For new analysts. CNN reported that a senior US official remarked today, "The United States will have to determine legal and diplomatic arrangements for working with a new Egyptian military-led government in the event President Hosni Mubarak steps down from power…The United States does not work with governments that come to power by military coup, and while there is talk in Egypt that the transfer of power would be agreed upon by consensus, the move poses a problem for the Pentagon."


Comment: Hmmmm….The US dealt extensively with General Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan who came to power by a military coup that was blatant even by Pakistani standards. Without his coerced cooperation the overthrow of the Taliban would have been much more arduous. He had not been elected to anything in 2001. :mrgreen:

Plus the US has dealt with every other Pakistani coup leader: Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan and Zia ul Haq. The US has dealt or deals with coup leaders pretty much everywhere, including Qadhafi, Ben Ali, Mubarak, Sadat, Bouteflika, Saleh in Yemen, Marcos, a succession of Thai coup leaders, Suharto in Indonesia and the list goes on. :rotfl: The US usually plays hard ball in support of its national interests, fortunately, and has dealt with hundreds of coup-born governments; not always wisely, but usually hard.

Algeria: Authorities will deploy 25,000 policemen in Algiers ahead of an opposition rally scheduled for 12 February, according to the Algerian daily Echorouk. Half of the reinforcements will be riot police, senior officials said.

Comment: As reported earlier this week, Algeria is taking a very different approach to opposition rallies.
Looks like the Egyptian Consititution is a coup proof Constitution for it ensures that the military will always be in charge! And US thinks they are deomcratic if they hold some bogus elections!

Lesson for Pakis!!!

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 00:41
by ramana
Mubarak officially resigns: Suleiman.

Army in charge.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 01:07
by svinayak
ramana wrote:Mubarak officially resigns: Suleiman.

Army in charge.
They have achieved the first step in the re order of the middle east.
Let us look at next pawn in the chess board

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 01:53
by shyamd
Folks this is exactly as scripted by Washington. Anyone who would have read my blog post would have realised this.

I think Washington would have given him some messages and also, one of the pillars/constituents I had mentioned in the earlier post,
Probably fell. So, that's probably what caused him to step down.

Suleiman says Army is in charge, just as washington wanted.

So, army was the one that called the shots. Apparently, Egyptian army is trying to put themselves in a TSPA style position in the country.
All aspects of security will be under the control of the army. Army is infact worried that whoever is in next will take out the top army guys like Turkey has done.
40 or so generals in turkey were arrested under charges of coup. So, Egyptian army is keen to prevent something occuring.

Also, interior ministry and several forces will undergo reform, there might be a removal of NDP control in the system.
Apparently the Mukabarat has escaped any attention and is highly likely to remain intact.

Apparently, Ashkenazi has been meeting with US officials so much that, he has equalled record number of meetings of Kayani!
I suppose it tells us, what's going on.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 02:51
by SwamyG
Karna_A wrote:Will the mighty Pyramids go the way of Bamiyan Buddhas?. Remember BRF, You first heard it here and now.
I am willing to bet, the West will not allow that to happen. Pyramids have been etched in a Westerner's mind for decades now. Hollywood would go nuts. Naaah.....Pyramids are greater specimens than Bamiyan Buddhas in the World's mind. If Pyramids go down, it is truly an Islamic revolution - it becomes "Islam vs The Rest."

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 02:52
by ramana
I admit I was wrong in not understanding the forces that moved Mubarak out of the Palace.
Mea Culpa.

Meanwhile Pioneer Editorial

http://www.dailypioneer.com/317190/Good ... barak.html
Goodbye Mr MubarakFebruary 12, 2011 3:19:01 AM

Arab street defeats Arab palace, once again

It is immaterial whether Mr Hosni Mubarak has left Cairo for Sharm el-Sheikh or the Bahamas. What is material and of unimaginable import is the collapse of his 30-year-old regime in 18 days. The man who ruled Egypt with an iron fist, brooking neither dissent nor discontent, has vacated both the palace and the job he has held since 1981 after Anwar Sadat’s assassination by Islamists opposed to the peace agreement with Israel. The ‘Jasmine Revolution’ in Tunisia forced President Ben Ali to flee the country; Mr Mubarak has been more courageous — some would say, needlessly stubborn. On Thursday he declared on state television that he was going nowhere; all that he was willing to do was delegate some power to his newly-appointed Vice-President Omar Suleiman, the former chief of Egypt’s intelligence agency. Obviously, behind his bluff and bluster lurked a sense of fear: Mobs on the streets baying for his blood were not to be taken lightly. Discretion, Mr Mubarak may have decided, is the better part of valour. It is equally possible that the Higher Council of the Egyptian military, popularly referred to as the Supreme Council, which began a series of emergency meetings on Thursday — the last time the council went into a similar huddle was during the Yom Kippur war with Israel — prevailed upon him to exit office rather than force a showdown with the masses. Although it has not been commented upon, Egypt’s Generals were understandably uneasy about sending troops to clear the streets of protesters: The Army’s foot soldiers are from the Arab street.

The jubilation in Cairo, Alexandria and Suez, in fact across Egypt, is only too natural. The masses wanted Mr Mubarak to leave and they have succeeded in their mission, which was largely peaceful barring the burning down of the NDP’s headquarters and some state buildings. But although there was clarity among the protesters on their objective, there is none on what they want for the future, except some vague, often inarticulate, assertions of democracy. In the absence of any organised leadership to chart the course for Egypt’s transition to secular republicanism based on the ideals of democracy, there is always the danger of the other alternative, which Mr Mubarak and his men were determined till the end to keep out of the political arena, from stepping into the political vacuum that has now been created by the President’s resignation. The Muslim Brotherhood, we can be sure, is eagerly waiting to step into the breach. That may not happen soon with power now vested with the Supreme Council of the military. The Generals could have their own agenda and their own ideas about how to deal with the situation that has suddenly been thrust upon them. Let us not forget that the council is packed with Mubarak loyalists. In a sense, it is premature to predict the denouement of the Egyptian story; one chapter is over, a new chapter has begun. Meanwhile, the US would be well-advised not to try and fish in Egypt’s troubled waters. If the Egyptians are determined to fashion their polity according to their own aspirations, they should be left alone to do so. As for Israel, it has to prepare for a tectonic shift in the region’s geopolitics. The ‘cold peace’ of the Mubarak decades could now be a thing of the past.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 02:56
by SwamyG
^^^^^
Heee heee....I said the same thingie
He will flee if the army leaders sit with him for a chai biskoot session and tell "Mia we had a nice time so far..... but now it is Khuda Afeez onlee. Here is some money and airplane for your services." Or he will flee if he senses his backers are split.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1028028

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 03:13
by ramana
Yes you did predict that outcome. I guess I will give it 1/2 probability as you had other choices.

Either way its the Egyptian Army that is the power that decided the change. I guess they only advanced the time table form Sept. Early on they got what they wanted whcih was non dynastic succession.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 03:47
by Muppalla
As for Israel, it has to prepare for a tectonic shift in the region’s geopolitics. The ‘cold peace’ of the Mubarak decades could now be a thing of the past.
That is the what to be watched. Their moves can change the geopolitics of not just the region but entire world. If things go out of hand, US will have two option, either to earn goodwill of Islamic world or go with satanic Israel. Most of the Europe had alomst made a choice to not befriend too much of Israel.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 03:57
by ramana
There will be closer Y-Y ties now on.

And will see the impact in Indo-US ties also.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 04:15
by ramana
So the players in Egypt's crisis are

A) Mubarak
B ) Egypt Military
C) Egypt Civil society
D) Egypt Civil activists
E) US State Dept
F) US Pentagon
G) US media: TV, Twitter/Facebook etc

the outcome is
1) 100% Mubarak resigns before Sept 2011
2) 50 % Mubarak Stays till Sept 2011
3) 25% Violence in Egypt
4) 0 % Mubarak ensures dynastic succession

We find no player had a veto.

Now
postions of players

A - 4
B - 2
C - 1
D - 1
E - 1
F - 2
G - 1

We need to look at the salience/power and flexibility

later.....

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 04:40
by SwamyG
Muppalla wrote:
As for Israel, it has to prepare for a tectonic shift in the region’s geopolitics. The ‘cold peace’ of the Mubarak decades could now be a thing of the past.
That is the what to be watched. Their moves can change the geopolitics of not just the region but entire world. If things go out of hand, US will have two option, either to earn goodwill of Islamic world or go with satanic Israel. Most of the Europe had alomst made a choice to not befriend too much of Israel.
One of the mistakes USA made after 9/11 was spurning and ignoring the helping arm the Persians extended. The rise of Arabs is not a good thing for Iran. From one angle it looks like "Islam is rising"; but from other angles things are very interesting - Israel-Sunni-Shia-America equation.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 07:23
by shyamd
ramana wrote: Pentagon Prediction Software missed Egypt unrest

RamaY, Our friend Mesquita is here but not blamed.
Ramanaji, Funny you should mention that article. About one week ago, source and I were talking about businesses, and Mark Abdulahaian happens to be a good friend of source. He was showing me the possibilities. Apparently Abdulahian is a professor/advisor for the big def firms and does this business too.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 07:24
by shyamd
ramana wrote:So the players in Egypt's crisis are

A) Mubarak
B ) Egypt Military
C) Egypt Civil society
D) Egypt Civil activists
E) US State Dept
F) US Pentagon
G) US media: TV, Twitter/Facebook etc

the outcome is
1) 100% Mubarak resigns before Sept 2011
2) 50 % Mubarak Stays till Sept 2011
3) 25% Violence in Egypt
4) 0 % Mubarak ensures dynastic succession

We find no player had a veto.

Now
postions of players

A - 4
B - 2
C - 1
D - 1
E - 1
F - 2
G - 1

We need to look at the salience/power and flexibility

later.....
Please read post:
shyamd wrote:
Sri wrote:I feel Mubarak is living in a bubble. My bet is that Army has given up on him. Look at the way the area of protest is growing. If Army wanted they had enough opportunity to crack down. Just that Military leaders still feel some guilt in turning against Mubarak, so they are letting the people do the talking.
It seems like he is living in a bubble. But he doesn't care about the masses. He only cares about his cronies, his 'big men', who are his real constituents.
The NDP members, loyalists are the elite and I imagine the egyptian govt spending would be siphoned by these people, to buy support.
Now Mubarak's coalition is going to expand, that's all.

GCC? Tick. Aid? Tick. NDP cronies? Tick. Army? Tick. Now he can tell anyone to F off.
Mubarak will do anything to satisfy these parties.
Another thing shows that, bad domestic policy and good foreign policy will suffice.
4 Pillars to Mubarak's power:
GCC = Money. Can't survive without that
Aid = GCC
NDP = His cronies is what makes him function and keep him in power.
Army = His major power pillar backed by US.

If one of these fall, it would have been the end. GCC stuck with him and kept the $$ flowing. NDP slowly started to weaken as state employees began striking. US forced the Army's hand to do a coup. This major pillar fell.

Also, for the benefit of readers:
Link
This will be a quick update:

The editor has been watching the Egyptian events unfold. Yesterday, Egyptian President has agreed not to stand for re-election and neither will his son Gamal Mubarak be allowed to do so. Similar statement also came out from Yemen's president.



From what we are told Ambassador Frank Wisner travelled to Cairo and met with Mohammed El Baradei first. After this meeting, he has met senior Egyptian officials to convey messages from the White House. The white house wanted Mubarak to step down immediately and allow the Army to control Egypt during the transition period until elections in 2011. We believe that this is so that the US and Israel are given enough time to decide the best course of action. Israel was infact, against the decision to ask Mubarak to step down, they see Mubarak as a guarantor to the 1979 Camp David accord. US and Israel must be increasingly interested in seeing Omar Suleiman stay on.

We feel that it was unlikely that Mubarak would have wanted to stay on as President anyway, in light of his health condition. Mubarak wanted to pass on the presidency to his son Gamal in the previous elections.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 07:28
by ramana
Sure will add them. The program requires adding anyone even with 5% influence.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 07:34
by habal
Robert Baer thinks this was a military coup to remove dynastic succession, and the generals resent suleiman as well. So this is not over yet.

i think he is right.

Re: West Asia News and Discussions

Posted: 12 Feb 2011 07:38
by shyamd
^^ Plausible. There is still speculation that intel units plus US may have handled the media and stage managed this. Could be US backed coup, soo many possibilities. We'll hear the truth soon anyway.

You know the elite in the GCC wanted him to stay as it was in their interest to stop the domino from falling.

Now Israel, US and the Egyptian military have time to sit down and sort out who will come in next. Its time for people like El Baradei and some people to discreetly display their loyalty to the US if they want to be in the seat.

King A of KSA is very very angry with Obama. Apparently he is calling this a conspiracy of Anti KSA lobbies in US.

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Iran and Oman hold joint military drills
Tehran Times Political Desk

TEHRAN – Iran and Oman started joint war games in the Sea of Oman on Wednesday.

Four fleets of warships, three jet fighters and a costal helicopter from Oman and four fleets of warships from Iran were used during the war game.

Members of the two countries’ joint military committees were present at the event.

The goal of the war game is to increase the level of regional cooperation between the two countries and share experience.

The two countries are scheduled to hold such military exercises in Iran and Oman’s waters every year.

The third joint war game will be held in Iran’s waters during the next Iranian calendar’s year (starting on March 21)
Third exercise is happening in a similar time to India and Oman's major exercise in Desh.