LCA News and Discussions

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Dec 2010 21:20

Tejas' brother Ojas would soon take up stealth, strength and inherent (internal) vital weapons.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Dec 2010 02:04

karan_mc wrote:this Aero India ,i hope i am able to see a demo or a wind tunnel model of tejas Mk-2 or even perhaps AMCA , hope it does not disappoint

Karan as much as I want to see the AMCA as you do, I wish India stops showcasing their models right from the wind tunnel days.

Nobody showcases their prestigious projects like us. I don't know why we have to give a preview to everybody. Chinese, US, Russia and infact none of the big players show their trump-cards till the very last. Show the world only when the prototype is ready. Let the jingos cry foul if it is in favour of national security. Go the Arihant/Scorpene/AURA way!

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Dec 2010 04:05

himanshugoswami wrote:One thing I dont understand

the LCA is a fighter with limited range- what is the sense of basing it in TN? even if it is used as a point defense bird or as an interceptor, it still makes more sense to base it in places like Udhampur, Jaisalmer, bagdogra etc.

The commies and the porkis dont have carriers that can launch craft to reach TN. the only thing in commie arsenal that can reach TN are their flankers, and the Tejas would be dead meat against the flankers.

Or is it that IAF want to fully test this baby over the next few years before putting it in a station that would be directly in harms way?

There are several reasons:

Yes this is a plane that is just reaching IOC. FOC will be achieved in 2014. So there is still a lot of things to be done, such as develop tactics, infrastructure setup, testing, logistics setup, pilot and mechanics training.
IAF is shifting its focus away from "Pakistan-Centric" to a more holistic approach to protect all of India and project power in the IOR region. The aerial threat (with AAR support) to Southern Indian has increased substantially. Also, new aircraft carriers are being inducted by PLAN and other countries. As part of this process, it is re-activating old airstrips and airbases as well as reallocating its resources more evenly, including the Southern Command.
IAF continually deploys its assets around (away from its home bases) for training, exercises, etc. to familiarize its pilots to India's distinct operational areas: sea, tropical, desert, and mountain. In wartime, this gives the IAF flexibility to move its assets closer to the action from all over India. So even though the LCA mk.1's home base is based in South India, you can expect it to be deployed all over India.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 04:14

indranilroy wrote:Karan as much as I want to see the AMCA as you do, I wish India stops showcasing their models right from the wind tunnel days.

Nobody showcases their prestigious projects like us. I don't know why we have to give a preview to everybody. Chinese, US, Russia and infact none of the big players show their trump-cards till the very last. Show the world only when the prototype is ready. Let the jingos cry foul if it is in favour of national security. Go the Arihant/Scorpene/AURA way!

I don't see the harm in showing one's model or initial mockup CAD drawings. We've seen that coming from all democratic free countries. Russia or China are hardly nations to be emulated in this regard. Japan's ATD-X or i3 technology demonstrator design has been seen widely and much has been written about the technologies they intend to incorporate, so has SoKo's KFX design, so has Saab's 5th gen concept and so are Boeing's 6th gen designs. We knew what the JSF competitors looked like well before they went head to head. What is the harm in this anyway? If someone wants to copy some idea, then it better be a ground breaking new idea that you are trying to protect, or like in the case of the ATV, it is kept secret because its designers and Indian strategists don't want its design to be studied and its capabilities analysed till it enters service and is eventually photographed.

Else, most of these fighter designs don't bring any revolutionary new concepts in airframe design that the rest of the world doesn't have any idea about and would copy. And anyway, they are widely seen and photographed after they've been unveiled, so what big advantage did one get from hiding it from the world before that? Would it have, for instance, mattered if the PAK-FA model had been shown 4-5 years ago? Maybe if it was feared that the Chinese would take a look at it and copy its concepts, such as the LEVCON or all-moving tailfin or the general layout, but really, these are things other nation's aero-designers are aware of so this isn't such a big deal.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Dec 2010 04:34

I agree that we are still not so much into the future to keep it for future. We have a lot to catch up on the LCA as it is.

Exiting times ahead as slowly we may get to know about various weapons Tejas may test fire AAM on like a test target tailing lakshaya at various distance (W/B VR), etc. Astra must be getting ready for the MKI.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Dec 2010 06:09

indranilroy wrote: Karan as much as I want to see the AMCA as you do, I wish India stops showcasing their models right from the wind tunnel days.

Nobody showcases their prestigious projects like us. I don't know why we have to give a preview to everybody. Chinese, US, Russia and infact none of the big players show their trump-cards till the very last. Show the world only when the prototype is ready. Let the jingos cry foul if it is in favour of national security. Go the Arihant/Scorpene/AURA way!

Indranil I agree with you 100%. It is an interesting commentary on Indians that there is a demand to "prove" that some work is actually being done. I won't comment on China - but in the US and Russia the people are confident (rightly or wrongly) that their boffins are working to bring up new designs and technology. Indian technology development is a public relations disaster in which government funded laboratories and research establishments have convinced India and the entire world that they are hoodwinking the public and are only pretending to do something.True or false that image is enduring and needs to be changed.

In fact this makes your comment particularly true and hard hitting. Indians too are easily satisfied. They see mock ups of "hyperplane" today and a mock up of "Stealth MRCA" tomorrow and think - like that Paki news channel showing the ROFLcopter that all iz wel. It is far better to work and show results than show plans.

When you show a ROFLcopter to an ignorant public like Pakis - it may fool them But the Indian public is getting more demanding and aware of realities. Government entities must change accordingly.

Arya Sumantra · Post by **Arya Sumantra** » 24 Dec 2010 11:19

Kartik wrote:
Singha wrote:well time to start work on certain ideas then. the idea of a taller fuel pylon and a couple AAM fixed to the side seems interesting...(F15E style)..
Singha, there was a blazing argument about all this dual rack pylons for the Tejas long time back. Cybaru and I were the ones who were involved in it. Can't find that thread now though the arguments lasted 2 pages at least.

It was about 2 years back or more and started when I asked about branching out pylons on Tejas. Rahul m was involved in favour of it and you had posted an image of Gripen with multiple rack pylon.

People argued that it would become more draggy and heavier to which others argued that it was better to give more option to mission planner and let him decide based on threats and goals how much he wants to overload the plane.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 14:00

Yes indeed.

The LCA's pylons are likely to be modified in the LCA Mk2 after they were found to be draggy. The initial blunt shape of the forward part of the inboard, mid and outboard pylons were modified to make them more aerodynamic and drag was found to have been reduced in studies.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 24 Dec 2010 14:19

so what HF number TEJAS is getting....!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 14:19

Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

1) A nose cone extension with the addition of a plug just forward of the cockpit. This is to reduce the wave drag of the aircraft.
2) Better area ruling at the aft portion of the aircraft, right under the empennage, where there will be better blending in the area where the fuselage and wing meet
3) Pylon modification will be carried out to make them more aerodynamically streamlined
4) They are investigating whether the IAF fighter version will get the LEVCON or not. Apparently helps in improving the L/D and this will benefit the Sustained Turn Rate of the IAF LCA, which hasn't been able to meet the ASR requirements.
5) Possible co-cured, co-bonded wing which will reduce the weight by eliminating rivets, fasteners and sealants and also make it more stiff, leak proof and improve lightning protection.
6) New Active Fuel metering system to tackle the issue of the aircraft becoming too stable when the wing tanks are empty and as a result the CG moving forward. this limits the aircraft's maneuvering capability and requires more elevon force to trim the aircraft. Currently this issue is being tackled by a passive fuel metering system but a more sophisticated automated system will be employed that can control the fuel proportion in the wing tanks better.

This particular point was also mentioned by PS Subramanyam in his interview where he mentioned that a better CG management system will be developed for the Tejas Mk2. This too will help improve the maneuverability considerably in the mid-weight category where moving the aircraft CG backward will help improve L/D.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Dec 2010 14:25

Singha wrote:what is the sanskrit for "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"? would make a good motto for our future SAC. the image of atomic electron orbits overlaid on a trident should impart the right message.

Famous words said by Oppenheimer.

In reference to the Trinity test in New Mexico, where the first atomic bomb was detonated, Oppenheimer famously recalled the Bhagavad Gita: "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one." and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."

You can hear the man speak the words here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94j9WIW ... re=related

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 14:25

Some details on the CSIO HUD used on the Tejas and the HJT-36. Even has a picture of the HUD view of the Tejas.

CSIO HUD

The Head up Display is one of critical module for combat Aircraft which provides a comprehensive display of aircraft data superimposed on the world view under all weather conditions. The technology involves an integrated design approach of electronics, optical and mechanical engineering of military grade standards. Few airworthy HUD units developed by CSIO are in use for field trials with LCA (fig 18). Addition of features like sun glare removal by use of multilayer coating on folding mirror, internally generated display to take care of display processor failure, FPGA based raster mode signal generation
for a jitter free display, lower power consumption of less than 50 watts as compared to 145 watts in raster mode of operation etc has further fine tuned the technology. The user of HUD is Air Force for fighter (LCA) and trainer (HJT-36) applications.

Milestones like 1,000 flights with various versions of LCA – Tejas (TD2, PV1, PV2, PV3, LSP1, LSP2, and LSP3) with no failure; field trials of LCA in harsh cold weather of Leh (with LCA PV3 fitted with CSIO HUD S/N 019 with aircraft soaked at -22°C), weapon aiming (the air to air missiles R73 have been test fired successfully from LCA with weapon aiming using HUD), night flying etc were achieved.

HUD variant for HJT-36 has met all essential Safety of Flight standards (SOF) such as MIL STD 704D, EMI/EMC MIL STD 461C, Environmental MIL STD 810D which covers various stringent tests like
random vibration, sinusoidal vibration, mechanical shock, drop test, acceleration, low and high temperature operational and storage test, thermal shock, humidity, salt fog, high altitude and rapid decompression etc.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 24 Dec 2010 14:54

Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

Good info out there..is that all? what about...

a) overall increase in percentage of composite use
b) improvement in structural design leading to weight saving.
c) new airfoil/wing design
d) any stealth features?

vcsekhar · Post by **vcsekhar** » 24 Dec 2010 15:37

geeth wrote: Good info out there..is that all? what about...

a) overall increase in percentage of composite use
b) improvement in structural design leading to weight saving.
c) new airfoil/wing design
d) any stealth features?

a) the LCA already uses more composites than any other aircraft (i think more than the JSF too), most likely this is not going to happen.
b) Maybe, but this again is hard to say and only data from the initial testing is available so maybe it is still too less to drastically start cutting weight from main structures.
c) this would essentially mean new aircraft, there was a discussion about this sometime back and there were refrences to a ADA video in which it was said by Subramanyam that the ADA knows the LCA wing very well and they will keep it as is.
d) Stealth - again means an all new design.

I would stick with what Kartik says as all those improvements are incremental in nature and nothing radical, the LCA does not need any radical changes at this point. The ADA may not have sufficient data or design data banks generated from the testing till now to be confident of any drastic changes. I would think that they would stick to the tested stuff and improve on the areas that need critical improvements and leave the rest alone as the additional thrust should solve a lot of problems.

Just my 2 cents

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Dec 2010 20:37

Kartik wrote:Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

1) A nose cone extension with the addition of a plug just forward of the cockpit. This is to reduce the wave drag of the aircraft.

Nope. What that plug will reduce is the FORM drag and NOT wave drag.

2) Better area ruling at the aft portion of the aircraft, right under the empennage, where there will be better blending in the area where the fuselage and wing meet

Hmm. interesting

5) Possible co-cured, co-bonded wing which will reduce the weight by eliminating rivets, fasteners and sealants and also make it more stiff, leak proof and improve lightning protection.

Err. What am I missing here. That co-cured co-bonded yada yada stuff for the wing is already there. The existing wing is just that and there were reams and reams of paper and reports from NAL and others on that, including old articles of BR!

Are you sure it is not the fuselage and not the wing? The current fuselage is composite skins fastened over a space frame. That one piece fuselage is the place where you could possibly get big chunks of weight out.

6) New Active Fuel metering system to tackle the issue of the aircraft becoming too stable when the wing tanks are empty and as a result the CG moving forward. this limits the aircraft's maneuvering capability and requires more elevon force to trim the aircraft.

Nice.. Will also reduce trim drag.

BTW, where are you getting all these from.. Chaiwallahs?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 24 Dec 2010 21:19

isnt it a bit late in the day for the first two items?
wouldn't these have been established long ago in the wind tunnell?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Dec 2010 21:30

the fuel thing and nosecone plug will need FCS testing. but I think unlike the 1st round they will have ample airframes and data to make it short and accurate.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Dec 2010 22:23

X-Mas Special: Tejas' IOC saga -- It's a light, late, yet great story!

It’s now official. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the initial operational clearance (IOC) in January 2011 and not on December 27. However, Tejas’ makers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are burning the mid-night oil to get the platform and systems certified through the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), as per the original December-27 deadline.“As of now, we have fixed it has January 10 and this again is a verbal confirmation and nothing is in yet, in black and white. There are a host of VIPs who are scheduled to attend the event in Bangalore, including Defense Minister A.K. Antony. A final decision will be taken next week,” military sources tell Tarmak007.

...
...
And, here are some confirmations:
1) The squadron formation of Tejas will most likely happen only in mid-2011.
2) The first platform (SP-1) from the initial block of 20 will be ready only by June\July 2011.
3) LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be ready only in March/April 2011.
4) Test pilots from IAF’s elite Bangalore-based unit -- Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE) -- will fly Tejas soon after all IOC formalities are done.
5) Pilots from IAF will have to undergo the following before flying Tejas: intensive simulation training, studying the flight manuals and grasping the flight reference records. The pilots will also be given familiarization sessions.

...
...
Interestingly, an IAF official, who attended a meeting of Tejas think-tank on December 21 in New Delhi, says the program as complex as Tejas, will have some last-minute issues. “Having come this far, we are keen to ensure that everything is in place. But, the truth is they (ADA-HAL) have asked for some concessions and we have given it, after discussions,” he said.
So folks! Independent-India’s first home-grown fighter plane is ready.
It’s light! But it’s late! But, isn’t it great?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Dec 2010 22:26

Kartik wrote:Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

Good info Kartik. I had the same question as vina though on #5. I thought the current wing was already built the same way. #3 and #4 may alter the way that the LCA looks, and will be different from Mk-I. Do you know if any of these are finalized or being looked into, or is this more of a wishlist?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Dec 2010 22:48

Kartik wrote:Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

1) A nose cone extension with the addition of a plug just forward of the cockpit. This is to reduce the wave drag of the aircraft.

Should it be forward of the cockpit or behind. Putting it forward might hamper pilot visibility. Whereas if LEVCONS go on the IAF version it will make sense to put the plug behind the cockpit.

What say?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Dec 2010 23:06

Kartik wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Karan as much as I want to see the AMCA as you do, I wish India stops showcasing their models right from the wind tunnel days.

Nobody showcases their prestigious projects like us. I don't know why we have to give a preview to everybody. Chinese, US, Russia and infact none of the big players show their trump-cards till the very last. Show the world only when the prototype is ready. Let the jingos cry foul if it is in favour of national security. Go the Arihant/Scorpene/AURA way!

I was not speaking about copying of IP from wind tunnel models or the CAD diagrams.

I was thinking in terms of strategy. Looking at the windtunnel models and the CAD diagrams an adversary can get a fair idea of what might be coming at them. Wind tunnel to actual prototype is atleast 6-7 years. Imagine giving your adversary a clear picture 6-7 years before-hand.

And as you rightly said suppose the Chinese and we were designing our 5th gen fighters together. They would have a known our aero-profile and say number and kind of internal weapons carried while we would only be second guessing their capability. They would revise/fine-tune their designs to counter ours. We just know that the Chinese are developing a 5th gen fighter!

Besides, the US when in competition with the USSR didn't release their designs early. The F-117 and the B-2s were kept a secret till as late as possible. Even when the F-22 became operational, they only let grainy pictures out for quite a long time.

manum · Post by **manum** » 24 Dec 2010 23:41

indranilroy wrote:
I was not speaking about copying of IP from wind tunnel models or the CAD diagrams.

I was thinking in terms of strategy. Looking at the windtunnel models and the CAD diagrams an adversary can get a fair idea of what might be coming at them. Wind tunnel to actual prototype is atleast 6-7 years. Imagine giving your adversary a clear picture 6-7 years before-hand.

And as you rightly said suppose the Chinese and we were designing our 5th gen fighters together. They would have a known our aero-profile and say number and kind of internal weapons carried while we would only be second guessing their capability. They would revise/fine-tune their designs to counter ours. We just know that the Chinese are developing a 5th gen fighter!

Besides, the US when in competition with the USSR didn't release their designs early. The F-117 and the B-2s were kept a secret till as late as possible. Even when the F-22 became operational, they only let grainy pictures out for quite a long time.

Its fair to hide what is beneficial to hide...but if you are saying, enemy is going to fine tune a design by seeing our design, then its like following a car on a highway...and banging a truck, the car ahead of us had better gauge of situation...
one can not deviate just like that from a given path, it takes time to achieve it, turn around from it is almost impossible...even for cars manufacturing, once you know rival has put better combo in the market in the same slot...

Design can not be copied, specially a design work in progress....only established designs can be studied and copied, and that can not be hidden for long....

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 23:53

vina wrote:
Kartik wrote:Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

1) A nose cone extension with the addition of a plug just forward of the cockpit. This is to reduce the wave drag of the aircraft.
Nope. What that plug will reduce is the FORM drag and NOT wave drag.

The issue is stated to be with wave drag and a nose plug has been studied as a possible solution for reducing wave drag, mainly to get over the Mach hump at sea level. The problems with high wave drag were seen during sea level trials. Possibly improves the von Karman ogival "fineness" ratio which is the ratio of the length of the nose cone to its base diameter. A better fineness ratio of the nose will reduce the wave drag at transonic speeds, but since wetted area increases, skin friction drag may increase. They will look for an optimal fineness ratio keeping this in mind.

5) Possible co-cured, co-bonded wing which will reduce the weight by eliminating rivets, fasteners and sealants and also make it more stiff, leak proof and improve lightning protection.
Err. What am I missing here. That co-cured co-bonded yada yada stuff for the wing is already there. The existing wing is just that and there were reams and reams of paper and reports from NAL and others on that, including old articles of BR!

Are you sure it is not the fuselage and not the wing? The current fuselage is composite skins fastened over a space frame. That one piece fuselage is the place where you could possibly get big chunks of weight out.

The only co-cured co-bonded piece of the LCA is the vertical stabilizer with the fin and rudder being separate. The wing is still made separately with different spars, ribs, stringers all being joined together with rivets and other fasteners.

NAL link

There will never be a fighter designed to be a one-piece composite like the 787. It is costly to manufacture, requiring a huge composite barrel tape layout machine, and will be a headache if battle damage is an issue. It is far easier to have the simply supported composite panels bolted at the edges which can be removed and replaced/repaired whenever damage is seen.

Also, parts of the fuselage like the wing-fuselage fairing, which have plenty of instruments/ducts inside that need access are not made with single piece fuselage barrel methods. They are made with simply supported or hinged composite panels only. A fighter will hardly have any part that doesn't have access panels like up in the front, over the wing or under the fuselage. Every single fighter design the world over is built this way only and I doubt that the AMCA will be any different.

Although, aesthetically speaking, there is no comparison at all. One has to see the 787's fuselage and run one's hand over it to see the difference between it and the earlier riveted fuselage designs.

6) New Active Fuel metering system to tackle the issue of the aircraft becoming too stable when the wing tanks are empty and as a result the CG moving forward. this limits the aircraft's maneuvering capability and requires more elevon force to trim the aircraft.

Nice.. Will also reduce trim drag.

BTW, where are you getting all these from.. Chaiwallahs?

Sort of.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 23:55

Singha wrote:the fuel thing and nosecone plug will need FCS testing. but I think unlike the 1st round they will have ample airframes and data to make it short and accurate.

Yes some FCS modifications, but overall it is not a huge change to just add a small plug. Will also free up room in the nose for instruments and IFR hopefully.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Dec 2010 23:58

indranilroy wrote:
Kartik wrote:Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:

1) A nose cone extension with the addition of a plug just forward of the cockpit. This is to reduce the wave drag of the aircraft.
Should it be forward of the cockpit or behind. Putting it forward might hamper pilot visibility. Whereas if LEVCONS go on the IAF version it will make sense to put the plug behind the cockpit.

What say?

Basic issue is to improve the aspect or fineness ratio of the nose. Plug will hence be in front of the cockpit. Won't make a big difference to the visibility since they are not talking about doubling the nose length.

LEVCONS will be added to the fighter design in a manner similar to the way it has been done for N-LCA most likely.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Dec 2010 00:05

geeth wrote:
Guys, expect these changes in the Tejas Mk2 when it comes out:
Good info out there..is that all? what about...

a) overall increase in percentage of composite use
b) improvement in structural design leading to weight saving.
c) new airfoil/wing design
d) any stealth features?

There are other things being looked at as well- casing and mounting of LRUs is being looked at for being changed to composites to reduce weight. As are slat doors, rear fuselage bulkheads and even the pylons.

Not likely to see any new airfoil or wing design. The Tejas Mk2 is meant to overcome whatever issues are there in the Tejas Mk1 and what you're talking about are very large scale changes that would require too much testing and that will increase cost as well. Tackling the known issues and a higher thrust engine should be mostly adequate.

With one of the smallest sizes among fighters and a high percentage of CFCs in the skin, the Tejas will have quite a small RCS as it is.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Dec 2010 00:31

Kartik wrote:
Basic issue is to improve the aspect or fineness ratio of the nose. Plug will hence be in front of the cockpit. Won't make a big difference to the visibility since they are not talking about doubling the nose length.

LEVCONS will be added to the fighter design in a manner similar to the way it has been done for N-LCA most likely.

Oh I didn't know this ... I was thinking of the fuselage as a whole. But now that you say, it makes sense. Do you have any idea of the shape of the plug?

Will the current nose be retained and the plug will only lengthen the fuselage in front of the cockpit.

Or will the plug be part of the nose and hence be a tapered cylinder, with the whole nose becoming sleeker?

I ask this because in the second case, we might have to push the radar antenna further behind, in which case the internal volume gain will not be as much as the first case.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 25 Dec 2010 00:32

regarding Mk2 changes,

can they reduce the actuators for the ailerons from 4 to 2, one per wing to reduce weight and have the whole tail hinging on one actuator, hoping it will help in the turn rate

what happened to the talk about increasing the internal volume for fuel by lengthening the fuselage?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Dec 2010 01:00

What would be the number of T/Rs LCA radome can host? let us assume Elta size modules as a baseline for space calculations?. Any plans to increase the space or having side lobes of T/R panels or on the rudder/wings /like in pak-fa?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Dec 2010 01:15

indranilroy wrote:
Kartik wrote:
Basic issue is to improve the aspect or fineness ratio of the nose. Plug will hence be in front of the cockpit. Won't make a big difference to the visibility since they are not talking about doubling the nose length.

LEVCONS will be added to the fighter design in a manner similar to the way it has been done for N-LCA most likely.
Oh I didn't know this ... I was thinking of the fuselage as a whole. But now that you say, it makes sense. Do you have any idea of the shape of the plug?

Will the current nose be retained and the plug will only lengthen the fuselage in front of the cockpit.

Or will the plug be part of the nose and hence be a tapered cylinder, with the whole nose becoming sleeker?

I ask this because in the second case, we might have to push the radar antenna further behind, in which case the internal volume gain will not be as much as the first case.

it should be a nose plug thatl match the dimensions of the fuselage right behind the radome. The radome itself will be unchanged since that will then require more extensive testing of the radome design itself and changes for the tools that are used to manufacture these radomes at HAL. Essentially the nose will be longer and hence sleeker, akin to the changes made to the Cheetah/Kfir from the original Mirage III, where the nose plug was added (the reason for that of course was mainly to add volume for the radar and avionics suite).

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Dec 2010 01:29

Kartik wrote: it should be a nose plug thatl match the dimensions of the fuselage right behind the radome. The radome itself will be unchanged since that will then require more extensive testing of the radome design itself and changes for the tools that are used to manufacture these radomes at HAL. Essentially the nose will be longer and hence sleeker, akin to the changes made to the Cheetah/Kfir from the original Mirage III, where the nose plug was added (the reason for that of course was mainly to add volume for the radar and avionics suite).

Makes sense. Most logical thing to do I must add.

I had forgotten how deep inside the nose the radome was. I somehow remembered that the radome was very close to the base of the nose. Hence the doubt.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Dec 2010 01:43

From Ananth Krishnan's blog, tarmak007

It’s now official. India’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas will be given the initial operational clearance (IOC) in January 2011 and not on December 27. However, Tejas’ makers at the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) are burning the mid-night oil to get the platform and systems certified through the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILAC), as per the original December-27 deadline.“As of now, we have fixed it has January 10 and this again is a verbal confirmation and nothing is in yet, in black and white. There are a host of VIPs who are scheduled to attend the event in Bangalore, including Defense Minister A.K. Antony. A final decision will be taken next week,” military sources tell Tarmak007.

While ADA-DRDO is still working out the final template of the event, there are multiple theories floating as to what the event would be finally called. While one set claims that it would be called Release to Service, another school of thought says it will be ‘Dedication of Tejas to the Nation.’ Then there’s a ‘third front’ which firmly believes that it can’t be called IOC as there are a couple of more platforms from the Tejas flight-line to be flown\tested and hence it has to be IOC-1.
Says a top source at ADA: “Release to Service of a product whose standard of preparation is for IOC. We are about to finish what was demanded. When an aircraft reaches the final phase, there will be some minor issues. This is not an Indian phenomenon, but seen world over.”

And, here are some confirmations:
1) The squadron formation of Tejas will most likely happen only in mid-2011.
2) The first platform (SP-1) from the initial block of 20 will be ready only by June\July 2011.
3) LSP-7 and LSP-8 will be ready only in March/April 2011.
4) Test pilots from IAF’s elite Bangalore-based unit -- Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE) -- will fly Tejas soon after all IOC formalities are done.
5) Pilots from IAF will have to undergo the following before flying Tejas: intensive simulation training, studying the flight manuals and grasping the flight reference records. The pilots will also be given familiarization sessions.

“Normally our (IAF) Test pilots will have 2,000-3,000 hours of flying logged against their names. Squadron pilots will not\might not have this kind of expertise (w.r.t. number of hours as against test pilots) and hence pre-flight preparations become very vital. We will start with our evaluation trials with Test pilots (other than NFTC pilots). We have many experienced boys and some were up there flying the MMRCAs during the trials,” a senior IAF official tells Tarmak007.

Insiders confirm that the morale of Team Tejas is sky high with 98 per cent of certification process completed when this blog goes live on X-Mas eve. “By December 27, we will have one more flight of LSP-5 to test some points. We are ready. No issues with the dates spilling over to next year,” says an engineer with CEMILAC.
Interestingly, an IAF official, who attended a meeting of Tejas think-tank on December 21 in New Delhi, says the program as complex as Tejas, will have some last-minute issues. “Having come this far, we are keen to ensure that everything is in place. But, the truth is they (ADA-HAL) have asked for some concessions and we have given them, after discussions,” he said.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Dec 2010 03:20

rohitvats wrote:
Singha wrote:what is the sanskrit for "I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"? would make a good motto for our future SAC. the image of atomic electron orbits overlaid on a trident should impart the right message.
Famous words said by Oppenheimer.

In reference to the Trinity test in New Mexico, where the first atomic bomb was detonated, Oppenheimer famously recalled the Bhagavad Gita: "If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one." and "Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
You can hear the man speak the words here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f94j9WIW ... re=related

That was mistranslated from the Bhagavad Gita verse "Kaalo Asmi" (I am time)

saip · Post by **saip** » 25 Dec 2010 03:26

Off topic. Deleted

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Dec 2010 03:43

veering off topic!

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 25 Dec 2010 06:57

Along with ioc for the tejas someone should give ADA website a makeover, as much as i admire tejas i despise their website.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Dec 2010 07:04

suryag wrote:Along with ioc for the tejas someone should give ADA website a makeover, as much as i admire tejas i despise their website.

agree. its so amateurish as to be embarrassing. Poor layout, too many fonts, overall pathetic for an organization that is responsible for such a lot. Anyone visiting that website would think that the website was created by some teenager just learning how to do some web design.

rahuls · Post by **rahuls** » 25 Dec 2010 08:27

Anujan wrote: That was mistranslated from the Bhagavad Gita verse "Kaalo Asmi" (I am time)

Doesn't "kaal" in Sanskrit also mean "Death" apart from "Time".

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 25 Dec 2010 09:06

Not likely to see any new airfoil or wing design.

There were talks about re-aligning the wing location on fuselage and a bigger wing to accommodate more weapon load as well as fuel. Hence the query.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Dec 2010 09:48

Kartik wrote:...

it should be a nose plug thatl match the dimensions of the fuselage right behind the radome. The radome itself will be unchanged since that will then require more extensive testing of the radome design itself and changes for the tools that are used to manufacture these radomes at HAL. Essentially the nose will be longer and hence sleeker, akin to the changes made to the Cheetah/Kfir from the original Mirage III, where the nose plug was added (the reason for that of course was mainly to add volume for the radar and avionics suite).

That extra space will be useful for adding IFR probe along with OLS-type of sensor (although haven't heard of any such type of sensor being developed for the LCA up to now).