MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

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NRao
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

malli wrote:to Rajanb and Nrao:
China independently developed a double delta wing with increased internal fuel. it also introduced indegenous engines with greater thrust. IIT's, notwithstanding we just couldnt do it. or should i say HAL couldnt.
Well, first you say "dare" this and that (which is why I gave you that example) and then you bring up this point. IS the LCA effort any less? Not to make an argument out of this, but I for one would take the path India took than the one China took. Any day.

Let us see where that double delta with increased internal fuel goes. we should know in about 10ish years.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by shiv »

did we dare to change the Mig 21 to make it better on our own.
I don't know what we did or did not do. When we don't know something it is OK to say anything, which is why I am the chief Armchair mARShal Emeritus on this forum (ARSE)

But watching this video would be a good idea
Jagan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo4-L7tNdVM
Integrating Western weapons & systems on Russian aircraft - IAF experience [Aero India 2011]
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

Ouch.

'Bad planning' added billions to RAF Typhoon jets cost

Ouch.
The RAF's Typhoon fighter jets have each cost 75% more than predicted......................
Ouch.
The number of planes ordered has been reduced, but the bill for development and production has risen by 20% to £20.2bn.

The government says it has learned lessons and has improved its practices.

The UK originally ordered 232 Eurofighter Typhoons in the mid-1980s, but this was reduced to 160. They are now all in service.
Back-of-an-envelope calc: 126 Typhoons should cost: $25 Billion.

Just saying.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

THIS really hurts. From the same article:
It says the joint management deal with Germany, Italy and Spain led to problems obtaining spares, and meant the RAF had problems fully training pilots.

Gad. Keep away from this puppy.

More problems:
The NAO report says Typhoons are performing well in air-to-air missions, but that work on adapting the jets for ground attack is unlikely to be complete until 2018.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by rajanb »

@NR

That's why I say go for the Rafale and use the MIG 35 as a price bargainer!

We then have a least risk option politically/sanction wise/ all eggs not in one basket

Just my two bits.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Multatuli »

We now understand why the EFT consortium is willing to make India "a key partner". There is no enthusiasm within the four EFT producing countries for the EFT, so the need a sucker to unload their shares/liabilities.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ i think that is not correct. there is NO BUDGET to aquire the aircraft
why?
because these countries prioritise health, social benefits and pensions above defence for political purposes. defence in their case means offense - i.e. fighting wars overseas. in the current state of warfare, what is needed are boots on the ground and helicopters and mine protected vehicles. an EF is not much use against 10 talibs in a gully with RPG's
the projects are on hold, not cancelled
it is an opportunity for india for industrial integration
the game is different
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SidGupta »

That's why I say go for the Rafale and use the MIG 35 as a price bargainer!
Lol, the MiG35 i believe comes out as one of the more expensive options, if the LIFETIME cost is considered. Amongst the twin-engine options, it would make sense to push the Frenchies/Dassault against Unkles SHornets.

Afterall its the american planes that have beat out the Rafale in over a DOZEN similar competitions/orders around the globe.

Dassault needs this, bad. Shornet is a very worthy alternative, just hampered by the 'myticism' of the US politics.
defence in their case means offense - i.e. fighting wars overseas
Er no. For the Americans, this is probably true, but definitely not for the European. A spate of press-releases and interviews, quoting various senior officials from the various European nations, in/around Aero India 2011, emphasised the EU's mantra of 'defense', as opposed to a strike-first creed.

When last did either of the European nations 'invade'/attack overseas? Following Unkle into Iraq/Afghanistan, with a few units is hardly 'defense means offense'.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SidGupta »

Viv S said:
You're wrong. The Paveway-II and Litening III were integrated into the RAF aircraft back in early 2008 as part of the Austere package. Today all Tranche 2 aircraft can employ the Paveway series of PGMs as well as dumb bombs which does make it multi-role. The Brimstone and Storm Shadow are yet to be integrated (they'll be done piecemeal), but they'll be done well before the IAF is to receive its aircraft. That aside, I don't think IAF will be looking to purchase the Storm Shadow given that the Nirbhay is starting trials in 2012, and will hopefully enter service by 2015-16.
Snicker - wonder why then the NAO is reporting the Typhoon's A2G capabilities as sub-par and not ready before 2018.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

Multirole indeed.

Ive said it before and will say it again. The Typhoon is a superb Air Superiority fighter. Unfortunately we dont need it and it just so happens, neither can we afford it.

When a partner nation, i.e. Italy, themselves have cancelled/reduced orders for the Typhoon, in favor of the F35, you need to take note of both - the Typhoons Multirole capability and its price.

Next please ..
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

sid - i am talking about fighting wars overseas, not on home soil
unlike india, the europeans are not too worried about defending their core airspace - when they were, they funded tornado and then typhoon programmes. since the ruskis discovered capitalism, they are no longer worried about them so much
"offense" has to be seen in terms of participating in unkil-led wars on foreign soil
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Doddel »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ i think that is not correct. there is NO BUDGET to aquire the aircraft
why?
because these countries prioritise health, social benefits and pensions above defence for political purposes. defence in their case means offense - i.e. fighting wars overseas.
...
So does Sweden and Gripen has full capability. EF has to wait till 2018 - at best (and then all competitors have moved on to higher tech). EF seems more and more as an economic disaster.

This proves that the Gripen system is extremely cost effective and easy to upgrade. Sweden has almost the same population as London and has to pay for (almost) every upgrade by itself - still with small amounts of investments Gripen is far ahead EF.

A small notice:
In early to mid-1991 German Defence Minister Volker Rühe sought to withdraw Germany from the project in favour of using Eurofighter technology in a cheaper, lighter plane. Due to the amount of money already spent on development, the number of jobs dependent on the project, and the binding commitments on each partner government, Germany was unable to withdraw; "Rühe's predecessors had locked themselves into the project by a punitive penalty system of their own devising."[45]
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

Interresting... a smaller and lighter plane. Sounds like Gripen... But they were forced to continue with EF. Something that they probably painfully regret today.
Lalmohan wrote:it is an opportunity for india for industrial integration
the game is different
How? :lol:
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Kronop »

^^ In the early days of Gripen and EF (or what was on the table at that time, ACA, P.106 or other) development it was planned to jointly develop some of the general systems. Due to constant delays of the start date for what eventually became the EF programme, Saab had to move ahead with the Gripen development on its own.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

there is NO BUDGET to aquire the aircraft
why?
1) All the more reason to keep away from that air craft. IF they have no budget today, with economies that are not moving too much, they certainly will not have one in the near future - UK is in the dumps anyways.

2) I think India should be interested in their technologies and NOT any form of partnership. Partnerships will inhibit Indian decision making - the very thing that scares India about the US.

3) Even with a budget - like the lately announced Russian Def Budget of $670 billion over 10 years or so - it does not mean that the country/ies will themselves buy what they suggest to India. In fact, I would be very interested to see if Russia - as an example - buys MiG-35. Let me go further on a limb and suggest that Russia will not buy as many PAK-FAs as India would buy the FGFAs. They will not have the same need nor the urgency that India has or will have.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

then lets scrap the tender, and wait until india develops all the technologies in-house
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Multatuli »

If the current members of the EFT consortium, all European countries, can not manage the project properly, how much worse will things be when India joins the club. Look at the way they manufacture the aircraft: country X makes the left wing, country Y the right wing, etc., this may work for the European countries, because the distance the various parts need to travel is relatively short, but it will be too expensive and too much of a headache for India to go along with this "distributed manufacturing".

NRao wrote:

2) I think India should be interested in their technologies and NOT any form of partnership. Partnerships will inhibit Indian decision making - the very thing that scares India about the US.

Exactly. The current members can't agree on anything, there is a virtual paralysis in taking the development of the EFT forward. That's not going to change if India joins the consortium, India will end up paying for every upgrade all by herself.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by koti »

SidGupta wrote:
That's why I say go for the Rafale and use the MIG 35 as a price bargainer!
Lol, the MiG35 i believe comes out as one of the more expensive options, if the LIFETIME cost is considered. Amongst the twin-engine options, it would make sense to push the Frenchies/Dassault against Unkles SHornets.
You believe so sir?

Can you put forth any concrete facts on which you started to believe so.?
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SidGupta »

I made a follow up from my one of my last post on unit price and maintenance cost to compare the mmrca contenders.

Unit cost:
Rafale: ~US$84.48 million
EF: ~US$83.16 million
F-16IN: US$50 million
F/A-18E/F: US$58 million
Gripen NG(IN): US$48 million
MiG-35: US$38.5 million

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRC ... g_aircraft

Maintenance cost per flight hour

Rafale: 19 000 USD
EF: 15 000 USD
F-16IN: 5 000 USD
F/A-18E/F: 18 000 USD (have seen figures of ~£85000 but that seems insane)
Gripen NG(IN): 2 500-5000 USD (3000 USD ackording to Swedish Air Force)
MiG-35: 18 000 USD

source: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?p=1697813
source: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5390&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=160

I guess that all these figures aren't exact and they can vary a bit. If someone can find better figures please do.

The cost for 5000 hours + Unit price. (Divided by gripens price in brackets)

Rafale: 19 000 * 5000 + ~US$84.48 mil = 180 000 000 (2.86)
EF: 15 000 * 5000 + ~US$83.16 mil = 158 000 000 (2.5)
F-16IN: 5 000 * 5000 + US$50 mil = 75 000 000 (1.2)
F/A-18E/F: 18 000 * 5000 + US$58 mil = 148 000 000 (2.35)
Gripen NG(IN): 3 000 * 5000 + US$48 mil = 63 000 000 (1.0)
MiG-35: 18 000 * 5000 + US$38.5 mil = 128 500 000 (2.04)

For 10 000 hours it will be (Divided by gripens price in brackets) [Divided by Rafale]

Rafale: 274 500 000 USD (3.5) [1.0]
EF: 233 000 000 USD (3.0) [0.85]
F-16IN: 100 000 000 USD (1.3) [0.36]
F/A-18E/F: 238 000 000 USD (3.05) [0.87]
Gripen NG(IN): 78 000 000 USD (1.0) [0.28]
MiG-35: 218 500 000 USD (2. [0.80]

So the Lifetime cost difference (upgrades and weapons excluded) of all the aircrafts are very big with Rafale the most expensive. Gripen and F-16IN are by far the cheapest. Rafale, EF, F-18, and Mig-35 really have to be top of the line in performance to be worth it.
Once you factor in the higher upgrade cost to the MiG35s given their relative low tech right now, I'd think the MiG35 would probably be the 2nd most expensive platform, after the EF
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by MarcH »

SidGupta wrote:Viv S said:

Snicker - wonder why then the NAO is reporting the Typhoon's A2G capabilities as sub-par and not ready before 2018.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

Multirole indeed.

Ive said it before and will say it again. The Typhoon is a superb Air Superiority fighter. Unfortunately we dont need it and it just so happens, neither can we afford it.

When a partner nation, i.e. Italy, themselves have cancelled/reduced orders for the Typhoon, in favor of the F35, you need to take note of both - the Typhoons Multirole capability and its price.

Next please ..
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/1011 ... oject.aspx

Direct link to the report.
However, it is unlikely to become the aircraft of choice for most ground attack missions until 2018.
From the above link. So, the RAF really plans to use the Tornado in it's intended role. Oh the horror ! Guess by that standart the MKI is a really crappy aircraft, since it doesn't replace the MiG-27 and Jaguars in their primary role.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

SidGupta wrote:Viv S said:
You're wrong. The Paveway-II and Litening III were integrated into the RAF aircraft back in early 2008 as part of the Austere package. Today all Tranche 2 aircraft can employ the Paveway series of PGMs as well as dumb bombs which does make it multi-role. The Brimstone and Storm Shadow are yet to be integrated (they'll be done piecemeal), but they'll be done well before the IAF is to receive its aircraft. That aside, I don't think IAF will be looking to purchase the Storm Shadow given that the Nirbhay is starting trials in 2012, and will hopefully enter service by 2015-16.
Snicker - wonder why then the NAO is reporting the Typhoon's A2G capabilities as sub-par and not ready before 2018.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12614995

Multirole indeed.
The news report says that air-to-ground updates of the Eurofighter will carry on till 2018. Are you claiming that vindicates your stand which if I may quote is -
'but i understand that the Typhoon has ZERO implementation of A-2-G weapon systems'
Ive said it before and will say it again. The Typhoon is a superb Air Superiority fighter. Unfortunately we dont need it and it just so happens, neither can we afford it.
We need an aircraft optimized for air superiority which can adequately perform a strike missions not an aircraft that's superb in a strike role and adequate in an air-to-air capacity. We've got 120 (and eventually 270) Sukhois which can carry tons of ordinance hundreds of kilometers away and still have the luxury of a dedicated WSO.

When a partner nation, i.e. Italy, themselves have cancelled/reduced orders for the Typhoon, in favor of the F35, you need to take note of both - the Typhoons Multirole capability and its price.
First off, the EF hasn't been cancelled in favour of the F-35. Italy has been a part of the JSF since its inception and they've already sunk over a billion dollars into the program. And secondly, opting for the F-35 instead of one of the MRCA competitors isn't an option for India, even though it would lead to a more potent fleet.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by koti »

@MarcH: No Offense.
You did not get the point.

MKI is any day better then EF for a multi-role mission. It was so form the past decade or so of operation. It will be the same into the next decade. The gap will only increase in IAF will not accept EF as MMRCA.

Instead of comparing EF with MKI, we should rather compare it with Rafale and SH. (Excluding Mig to avoid upsetting few folks)
In comparison EF pales away rather quickly...

Don't you think so?
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by koti »

We need an aircraft optimized for air superiority which can adequately perform a strike missions not an aircraft that's superb in a strike role and adequate in an air-to-air capacity. We've got 120 (and eventually 270) Sukhois which can carry tons of ordinance hundreds of kilometers away and still have the luxury of a dedicated WSO.
Are you hinting at the MIG there sir?? :)

For EF,I believe we need not go for this compromise.
We already have contending platforms that overcome this compromise. Rafale and Mig are examples.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by MarcH »

koti wrote:@MarcH: No Offense.
You did not get the point.

MKI is any day better then EF for a multi-role mission. It was so form the past decade or so of operation. It will be the same into the next decade. The gap will only increase in IAF will not accept EF as MMRCA.

Instead of comparing EF with MKI, we should rather compare it with Rafale and SH. (Excluding Mig to avoid upsetting few folks)
In comparison EF pales away rather quickly...

Don't you think so?
Sure. But the notion that the Tiffy has no a2g capability at all till 2018 is plain wrong.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by srai »

MarcH wrote:
koti wrote:@MarcH: No Offense.
You did not get the point.

MKI is any day better then EF for a multi-role mission. It was so form the past decade or so of operation. It will be the same into the next decade. The gap will only increase in IAF will not accept EF as MMRCA.

Instead of comparing EF with MKI, we should rather compare it with Rafale and SH. (Excluding Mig to avoid upsetting few folks)
In comparison EF pales away rather quickly...

Don't you think so?
Sure. But the notion that the Tiffy has no a2g capability at all till 2018 is plain wrong.
In any case, full A2G capability by 2018 is not a big deal for the IAF since by the time it gets the first planes from the MRCA deal it will be 2015+. For the IAF, FOC on the MRCA winner will not happen until 2017 (at the earliest). And besides looking at the IAF's PGM inventory, IAF for the most part relies on "dumb" bombing and not on extensive sets of PGMs. Currently, EF can drop "dumb" bombs as well as LGBs. This should be sufficient for the IAF (as is currently).
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

Rakshaks, if I may interject…

I readily understand the rationale behind not picking the F-16: because the TSPAF flies them, and so an IAF F-16 would have the same ‘flight envelope’, disallowing an advantageous engagement.

By the same rationale, considering that the KSA flies the EFT (perhaps even with TSPAF pilots), and postulating the entry of the KSA on the TSP’s side in a war with India: why should the IAF consider the EFT for the MMRCA, if in wartime, they might have to go-up against EFTs on the other side?
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SaiK »

KSA fighting with us is remote. The implications are quite alarming that unkill and russkies will swing to prevent KSA doing anything funny. As long as they are in the oil business, their interference is near zero.

A tspeean redux of euro-fighting is plausible scenario, but then we may not pit MRCA candidate (even if EF-I has to take on KSA EF, having equal RCS, and radar power (may be desh grown one should super seed what KSA can have in that sense)). We have the pak-fa for that threat perception alone, and not just that but the chinese j20 is also taken care of with pak-fa actually. Now, don't keep LCA in the dark.. it can take on EF with an equally comparable RCS and BVR capable at pretty good range). With MKI, tspian-ksa-EF will be smoking in pindi.

It all depends on who detects first!, gets to kill. Of course, wait for the experts to land on this fight.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

koti wrote:Are you hinting at the MIG there sir?? :)

For EF,I believe we need not go for this compromise.
We already have contending platforms that overcome this compromise. Rafale and Mig are examples.
Not at all. The EF doesn't have to make 'compromises' in a strike role anymore than the Rafale requires a compromise in air superiority/interceptor role. Yes its range and and payload are somewhat lower than the Rafale's but hardly low enough to be a disability. And the specific type of mission that the Rafale outperforms the EF at (long range strike), is the one that the MKI excels at.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Rakshaks, if I may interject…

I readily understand the rationale behind not picking the F-16: because the TSPAF flies them, and so an IAF F-16 would have the same ‘flight envelope’, disallowing an advantageous engagement.

By the same rationale, considering that the KSA flies the EFT (perhaps even with TSPAF pilots), and postulating the entry of the KSA on the TSP’s side in a war with India: why should the IAF consider the EFT for the MMRCA, if in wartime, they might have to go-up against EFTs on the other side?
We're buying the MKI despite China being the largest operator of Flankers outside of Russia. Russia sold us Talwar class frigates while at the same time selling Sovremenny class destroyers to the PRC. The Gripen-NG is still a favourite among many despite the fact that it'll go up against the Erieye in a regional conflict. Not that its an issue really - the Saudis know what the final result of a shooting match between the IAF and PAF will be, and unless they want to add their EFs to the IAF's tally, they aren't going to intervene.

The similarity of the aircraft itself isn't likely to be a problem in that opposing EFs will be a threat to any choice of fighter and not just the Eurofighter.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:Rakshaks, if I may interject…

I readily understand the rationale behind not picking the F-16: because the TSPAF flies them, and so an IAF F-16 would have the same ‘flight envelope’, disallowing an advantageous engagement.

By the same rationale, considering that the KSA flies the EFT (perhaps even with TSPAF pilots), and postulating the entry of the KSA on the TSP’s side in a war with India: why should the IAF consider the EFT for the MMRCA, if in wartime, they might have to go-up against EFTs on the other side?
Nov, 2010 :: India, Saudi Arabia to Hold Military Exercises in March 2011; India to Construct Mountain Warfare School in Saudi Arabia
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Ravi Karumanchiri »

^^^ NRao, Yeah, I saw that, but...

PAF and RSAF conducting joint exercise

ISLAMABAD (January 17, 2011) : Pakistan Airforce (PAF) and Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) are conducting a joint air power employment exercise code name "Al Saqoor-II" in Saudi Arabia. The joint exercise commenced on January 6 and would be completed by 19th.
...
http://www.brecorder.com/news/top-stori ... rcise.html


&

Pakistan, Saudi Arabia conducts joint air exercise

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) are conducting a joint air power employment exercise, code named ‘Al Saqoor-II’, in Saudi Arabia.

The exercise commenced on January 6 and will be completed by January 19.
...
http://mymodelplanes.wordpress.com/2011 ... -exercise/

& let's not forget the political strings the KSA pulls in the USA on behalf of the TSP, not to mention joint pilot training and funding the TSP's 'Islamic Bomb'.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Rakesh »

Ravi Karumanchiri: They can conduct exercises till cows fly over the moon....it is not going to change anything. F-Solah and JF-17 Fundaars is all they are going to be able to bring to a fight and the IAF is more than capable to handle those mosquitos.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Rakesh wrote:Ravi Karumanchiri: They can conduct exercises till cows fly over the moon....it is not going to change anything. F-Solah and JF-17 Fundaars is all they are going to be able to bring to a fight and the IAF is more than capable to handle those mosquitos.
Ravi is replying to the argument that others are making that you shouldn't get the F-16 because Pakistan knows the limitations of the F-16.

His argument is that you could apply the same argument to the EF because Pakistan will get information about EF limitations from Saudi Arabia.

He's not making an argument against the EF, but against rejecting the F-16 just because Pakistan operates it too.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Rakesh »

George Welch: The same applies for the PAF too, as the IAF has flown against the F-Solah in exercises. It is a two way street.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

RK,

Fair enough.

In general this is how I see this MMRCA circus:

1) IAF, they have a need for top notch as possible under the circumstances. IAF should concentrate on the plane - its capabilities, fit, etc
2) DefLabs, they need as much historical R&D data/info as they can get, rest is just icing - looks and tastes great, but tends to put on unnecessary weight over time
3) GoI. The guardians and guarantors from the Indian side of ToT compliance and ensuring no political interference for the life of the MMRCA plane. Make a political decision as close to the desires of #1 ans #2







4) Satisfy BR.

May be the list needs to be reversed.
SidGupta
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SidGupta »

First off, the EF hasn't been cancelled in favour of the F-35. Italy has been a part of the JSF since its inception and they've already sunk over a billion dollars into the program. And secondly, opting for the F-35 instead of one of the MRCA competitors isn't an option for India, even though it would lead to a more potent fleet.
I never said that the EF program has been cancelled. I stated a fact i.e. Italy has cancelled/reduced its future orders of the Typhoon, as has the RAF.

This fact alone must send alarm bells to all decision makers in the MMRCA process, before siding with the EF. Contrast the above reality with the propoganda the EF members were spreading during the Aero India 2011, of the Tyhpoon being a HIGHLY COST EFFECTIVE platform, and you know youre being taken for a ride.

Further, i never mentioned F35 as an addition to the MMRCA. I bring it up to highlight the fact, that even a founding member nation of the EF platform is choosing the F35 over additional Typhoons - so either the Typhoon is not the Multirole superstar most of you will have us believe or the F35 is far better (or more cost effective ..)

Either ways, the NAO report damns the EF's export potential - the makers and founding nations are themselves running away from this 'white elephant' platform.

Finally, i think everyone here is well aware that we can debate the MMRCA till were blue in the face, no one who matters, cares what us BR forum junkies think how the MMRCA should conclude. I think we all do it out our passion and love for the country/military/aviation.

I am certain, like any other defense deal, the MMRCA too will be dependent on 3 clear variables - PERFORMANCE, PRICE and POLITICS.

They hopefully will choose the best OVERALL product, which balances the various variables.

I for one await the day eagerly, when the acute IAF flight and weapons test details will be made public - i really would love to see how the 6 stack up, as per the IAF's expectations. A nice detailed PERFORMANCE chart, filled with first hand facts, yummy!

'Multirole' (80% Weightage, A2A BVR 20%, A2A WVR 20%, A2G 40%)
1. A2A (Interception, Superiority, Escort)
1A. [BVR - Transonic & Supersonic flight, Turning, TakeOff/landing, AESA Radar, BVR Missile Integration, EW protection suite, Datalink/AWACS support]
1B. [WVR - Agility/Manouverability, Climb Rate, Helmet Mounted Targeting, Pilot Visibility, WVR Missile Integration, IR protection suite, Glass cockpit/HUD features, Gun performance]
2. A2G (Strike, Infantry Support/Anti-Armor, Bombing)

'Medium' (20% Weightage)
3A. Combat Range
3B. Payload

Wonder who will top the PERFORMANCE chart - my guess, overall Rafale.

The PRICE comparison chart, including the off-set clause, and taking into account maintainence (per flight hour), lifetime cost, not just unit purchase price and future upgrades into account, will be a little more expected. I would wager a guess, in order of most expensive to least:

EF -- Rafale --- MiG35 ---- SHornet - SViper --- Gripen

And finally POLITICS, we can all say what we want, but a few old men/women of the UPA government will be taking this critical decision.

There's a strong case on 'performance' for F16 SV, but the Pak angle kills it frankly. The Gripen IN/NG also makes a strong case, especially on 'price', but too similar to the Tejas Mk2.

Said it before, and will say it again.

Rafale or SuperHornet to nick the MMRCA. (i hope its the Rafale)
MarcH
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by MarcH »

Further, i never mentioned F35 as an addition to the MMRCA. I bring it up to highlight the fact, that even a founding member nation of the EF platform is choosing the F35 over additional Typhoons - so either the Typhoon is not the Multirole superstar most of you will have us believe or the F35 is far better (or more cost effective ..)
Maybe they reduced orders because they are broke ? And following your logic, the F-35 is crap, too. The British reduced their planned numbers from 150 to 50 airframes.

Btw, what do you consider as multirole ? EF is multirole. Where it can't deliver is deep strike with 2000lbs laser guided munitions.
Last edited by MarcH on 03 Mar 2011 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
Viv S
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

SidGupta wrote:I never said that the EF program has been cancelled. I stated a fact i.e. Italy has cancelled/reduced its future orders of the Typhoon, as has the RAF.

This fact alone must send alarm bells to all decision makers in the MMRCA process, before siding with the EF. Contrast the above reality with the propoganda the EF members were spreading during the Aero India 2011, of the Tyhpoon being a HIGHLY COST EFFECTIVE platform, and you know youre being taken for a ride.

Further, i never mentioned F35 as an addition to the MMRCA. I bring it up to highlight the fact, that even a founding member nation of the EF platform is choosing the F35 over additional Typhoons - so either the Typhoon is not the Multirole superstar most of you will have us believe or the F35 is far better (or more cost effective ..)
You're missing the point. Italy is a member of the JSF consortium as well and has been committed to purchasing F-35s for a long while now. Which means exclusively ordering EFs isn't an option i.e. the F-35 isn't being chosen over the Eurofighter. Financial constraints are responsible for the squeeze in the final order not the appearance of a shiny new fighter.

Also, how is the F-35 being a 'far better' fighter relevant to the MRCA competition? Its far better than all competing aircraft including the Rafale and Super Hornet, so what? Its still not an option for India.
Either ways, the NAO report damns the EF's export potential - the makers and founding nations are themselves running away from this 'white elephant' platform.
.
.
.
Wonder who will top the PERFORMANCE chart - my guess, overall Rafale.
Yeeah... Eurofighter - 560 ordered, 260 delivered, Rafale - 180 ordered, 90 delivered. Exports - 87 to nil.
SidGupta
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SidGupta »

Yeeah... Eurofighter - 560 ordered, 260 delivered, Rafale - 180 ordered, 90 delivered. Exports - 87 to nil.
Right, because Saudi Arabia and India's needs are exactly the same ... Military, Economic, Political ... right?

If exports are the going to be the benchmark for this decision - then lets just pick the uber ubiquitous F16 and be done with it .. whats the export ticker on .. like 2000+?

I will admit that i was sorely misinformed about the EF's A2G abilities, as i had put them at 'non-existent', but someone please convince me, give me SOME source that will at least remotely state that the EF is a multirole platform that excels in BOTH A2A and A2G roles.

There is NO argument anyone can pose about it being sorely overpriced. Its not AESA ready (well neither are 4/6 MMRCA contenders), its A2G is 'meh', its overpriced.

So, by your argument, we should buy because the Saudis bought it?

And what does actual exports have ANYTHING to do with 'performance'? When i wager a guess, that imo, the Rafale will top the 'performance' variable (i.e. overall A2A, A2G, Payload, Range, Weapon Systems etc) .. how is the 'Saudis ordered 87 huhu' even a relevant reply? .. lol

oh oh, well since the EF Typhoon isnt even amongst the contenders for the Brazilian FX2 competition (its Rafale, SHornet and Gripen), maybe we should also throw out the other 3 - since its SO relevant.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/bra ... ram-04179/

Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS/European): Technology transfer may prove to be an issue, but price was always the biggest stumbling block. Eurofighters consistently sell for $110-130 million, which doesn’t square well with $2.2 billion for 36 planes. The most capable air-air choice in the group would provide unquestioned regional air superiority, but ground surveillance and strike performance is still provisional (Tranche 1 v6), or unproven (Tranche 2+). This has been fatal in competitions like Singapore’s, and may have been a handicap here.

Since the above analysis, the EF Typhoon has been dropped by Brazil, when it pruned the list to 3 contenders - Gripen NG, SuperHornet and Rafale
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i= ... =EUR&s=AIR
The British are buying 160 Typhoons, with the first one delivered in 2003 and the last one scheduled for 2015. The number of aircraft will fall to 107 by 2019, when the Tranche 1 machines are scheduled to be taken out of service.
Nice, 16 years and the Tranche 1 is obsolete - needs to be taken out of service. Love it, so much for a 4.5+ gen craft.

Till you can prove it otherwise, the Typhoon to me, remains an excellent A2A fighter, that the IAF DOESNT NEED, NOR CAN IT AFFORD.
Viv S
BRF Oldie
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

SidGupta wrote: Right, because Saudi Arabia and India's needs are exactly the same ... Military, Economic, Political ... right?

If exports are the going to be the benchmark for this decision - then lets just pick the uber ubiquitous F16 and be done with it .. whats the export ticker on .. like 2000+?

So, by your argument, we should buy because the Saudis bought it?

And what does actual exports have ANYTHING to do with 'performance'? When i wager a guess, that imo, the Rafale will top the 'performance' variable (i.e. overall A2A, A2G, Payload, Range, Weapon Systems etc) .. how is the 'Saudis ordered 87 huhu' even a relevant reply? .. lol
Again you're missing the point - the EF's supposed lack of follow on orders and bleak export prospects are hardly a convincing argument to buy the Rafale instead.
I will admit that i was sorely misinformed about the EF's A2G abilities, as i had put them at 'non-existent', but someone please convince me, give me SOME source that will at least remotely state that the EF is a multirole platform that excels in BOTH A2A and A2G roles.
It can perform all strike missions that the IAF requires it to, adequately. It can currently employ the Paveway series of PGMs, dumb bombs and will be integrated with the Brimstone. In IAF service, it will also be a platform for the Nirbhay ALCM and perhaps a variant of the HELINA. It isn't lacking in any way, save at a long range strike where the Rafale's greater operational range will be an advantage.
There is NO argument anyone can pose about it being sorely overpriced. Its not AESA ready (well neither are 4/6 MMRCA contenders), its A2G is 'meh', its overpriced.
I can pose an argument. First off, the actual manufacture of the bulk of the fleet will take place in India, so the expensive shuttling of stores and components about Europe and high labor costs aren't a factor. Secondly, add in the development expenditure of the aircraft and the Eurofighter ends up costing a good deal less than the Rafale.
Bottomline, Brazil, Austria and South Korea aren't the benchmarks for what the aircraft will cost the Indian taxpayer.
Nice, 16 years and the Tranche 1 is obsolete - needs to be taken out of service. Love it, so much for a 4.5+ gen craft.

Till you can prove it otherwise, the Typhoon to me, remains an excellent A2A fighter, that the IAF DOESNT NEED, NOR CAN IT AFFORD.
The Tranche 1's deficiencies lie in it not being truly multi-role unlike the T2 and T3. You're saying the aircraft is an 'excellent A2A fighter' and then calling it obsolete at the same.
Doddel
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Doddel »

Viv S wrote:
I will admit that i was sorely misinformed about the EF's A2G abilities, as i had put them at 'non-existent', but someone please convince me, give me SOME source that will at least remotely state that the EF is a multirole platform that excels in BOTH A2A and A2G roles.
It can perform all strike missions that the IAF requires it to, adequately. It can currently employ the Paveway series of PGMs, dumb bombs and will be integrated with the Brimstone. In IAF service, it will also be a platform for the Nirbhay ALCM and perhaps a variant of the HELINA. It isn't lacking in any way, save at a long range strike where the Rafale's greater operational range will be an advantage.
He asked for a source. Source please...

Please inform us... What are IAFs requirements? (source required)

When will EF be able to perform a naval strike? When will it be able to perform an A-2-G strike with a missile? And of course... Don't answer if you don't have a source.
Doddel
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Doddel »

Viv S wrote: It can perform all strike missions that the IAF requires it to, adequately. It can currently employ the Paveway series of PGMs, dumb bombs and will be integrated with the Brimstone. In IAF service, it will also be a platform for the Nirbhay ALCM and perhaps a variant of the HELINA. It isn't lacking in any way, save at a long range strike where the Rafale's greater operational range will be an advantage.
When I search for the missile HELINA it seems to be the missile NAG.
The Nag has a flight speed of 230 metres per second...
mach ~0.7 with full rocket power... Don't you think the missile will slow down the EF at flight?
Nag will be configured to be used on the Advanced Light Helicopter(ALH) and the HAL Light Combat Helicopter(LCH). This version will be known as HELINA (HELIcopter NAg). Eight missiles are carried in two quadruple launchers. Launchers mounted on either side are linked to a nose-mounted stabilized thermal sight and a laser range-finder package.
Sounds promising :lol:

source: http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Air ... India.html

source 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_(missile)
Last edited by Doddel on 03 Mar 2011 20:13, edited 1 time in total.
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