India-US Strategic News and Discussion

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jul 2012 06:43

Some have argued that US military always operates by the book. Given the contents of this article, I guess we can infer that race-based hazing is in the "book".

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jul 2012 06:51

And this article was posted a few months ago. People who have great faith in the investigation of USN should really read it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2012 07:09

Suppiah wrote:
And doc-ji I expect a little bit more respect and consideration for alternative viewpoints by a man of your experience and calibre.

Suppiah ji I will give full respect and consideration for what you have written. You certainly did ask that an investigation be done. Perhaps you forgot that US, like the Indian armed forces always and invariably conduct an investigation into such incidents.

If you know the results of the investigation, you have not mentioned it.

But here, in series is what you said

Let us talk sense. A criminal case arises only when it is obvious that they did it out of malice or deliberately, such as rape, murder of civilians. At the very best (worst) we are looking at a case of inadequate precautions, not following established procedure and negligence and so on. But most armies operate on immunity for that kind of stuff. In this case it is nonsensical to talk of deliberate malice or murderous intent, they did not go looking for the boat or its occupants.

Again, not trying to compare, but even for cases of deliberate murder of civilians, our jawans /policemen/coast guard/BSF etc., do not face any prosecution. Let alone accidental killing or trigger happy shooting. So in comparison, both would look ugly unless you want to split hairs on degrees of ugliness.

As a navy they are on edge, small boats are always a danger as USS Cole and LTTE repeatedly showed. Like I said, it has happened with our own Navy, it can happen again.

West, however full of racist, murderous lawless thugs that you make them out to be, have neither invaded us nor do they pose an immediate threat. Yes, they have encouraged TSP, played along when PRC screwed us and so on, undeniable. But whose guilt is more or less?

On top of that you have to consider the fact that one is a open society where millions of Indians have prospered, glass ceiling or not, and rose to enormous heights. Perhaps a few of them are members in this forum.

To my mind your series of posts on the subject do not sound like those of an unbiased person. Apart from having a rant about Bhradrakumar you have taken the opportunity to cite mitigating factors that make the US shooting less than a murder on the high seas. These mitigating factors are :

1. You have judged that the case should not be considered a criminal case before the results of the investigation are out
2. You express empathy about the fact that US seamen are tense, as if that were a mitigating factor
3. You state that the Indian navy does this too, and mention encounter deaths in India by saying that you do not want to mention them
4. You say that the west has not invaded us yet and imply moral superiority for not invading.
5. You say the US is an open society where Indians have prospered.

None of these things has any bearing on either the investigation or the results. However you have taken the opportunity to go on the defensive about the USA and point out all the great things about the US that are so well known to many members of this forum alongside a sly insinuation that Indian soldiers might also have killed innocent people. You really should be more understanding about the sentiments of people who consider that they have lost an innocent compatriot in what appears to be a murder, rather than making a long list of credentials of the country of origin of the killer seaman.

May I point out two other statements you made:

So in comparison, both would look ugly unless you want to split hairs on degrees of ugliness.

But whose guilt is more or less?

You are the person who is splitting hairs and judging degrees of guilt. And you are doing this perhaps because you do not consider the murder of an unarmed fisherman to be taken seriously because of all the facts you have posted about the USA rather than the facts of the case itself.

As I stated earlier
1. I disagree with you
2. I consider your viewpoint both egregious and biased in favour of the USA
3. I consider it an insult to the family of the dead fisherman.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 07:21

1. You have judged that the case should not be considered a criminal case before the results of the investigation are out

Doc ji that was an opinion based on facts reported. I am entitled to that just as you are entitled to call it 'murder'. On the balance of probabilities, I still say it is not a 'murder' case but error of judgement case. If expressing opinions until investigation is finish applies to all sides, then calling it 'criminal' as opposed to 'error' or 'negligence' etc., should also wait..IMHO.

2. You express empathy about the fact that US seamen are tense, as if that were a mitigating factor

I said that, as such things apply to war zones. If the casualty are Pakis, you would have said the same.

3. You state that the Indian navy does this too, and mention encounter deaths in India by saying that you do not want to mention them

Again, only to provide comparison, not to malign IN. Just to show that these things happen on all sides, so dont use it to thrash Unkil about without considering overall relationship. And become tools in the hands of MKB likes. That was my ONLY point of saying that.

4. You say that the west has not invaded us yet and imply moral superiority for not invading.

A nonsensical conclusion. I am just comparing again to PRC/TSP the likely beneficiaries of any silly standdown with Unkil on this matter.

5. You say the US is an open society where Indians have prospered.

Yes.

As I stated earlier
1. I disagree with you
2. I consider your viewpoint both egregious and biased in favour of the USA
3. I consider it an insult to the family of the dead fisherman.

I too consider making loud protests here and keeping quiet about serial killing of same Tamil fishermen by SLN a case of bias against USA. And an insult to many more tamils.

Ok. I heard you, you heard me..

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Jul 2012 07:26

Suppiah wrote:BTW, just out of curiosity, may I ask our jingo friends venting their anger against Unkil here, what exactly GOI should have done that would make them happy?

Suppiah wrote:RajeshA -bhai, I agree with you in principle and anyone that has been reading me regularly know where I am placed in these respects. At the same time, we have to have the courage and ability to look at things from various perspectives. If US bashing is the only option allowed, here in BRF and elsewhere and we have the likes of Moothra and Chindu batting aggressively for PRC, can you see where that would lead us?

Oh BTW, Lanka navy has been killing the very same tamil fishermen for breakfast lunch and dinner for years now....I would request the very same warriors who are foaming at their mouths and oozing steam from all pores to kindly refer back to the SL thread and see what their take on that is...If this thread has 100 posts slamming Unkil for killing one fisherman, SL thread should be 5,000 pages long by now.

Suppiah ji,
Please to naat to come to brf and then go ahead and call us froathing at the mouth jingoes - pecause that is the reason we are in brf onlee.
And just because you have thrown in the towel for various reasons (green card, involuntary quaking in light of fullspectrum dominance of US ,dustfreelife..and whatnot ) and rationalized for your self that being a junior ally of US is the manifest destiny of sdre's that's well and fine with us, so go ahead and do what you have to do.
Only just dont ask us to quake in our pants along with you.

Now coming to Chindu and MKB just as i make a beeline for their editorials and views in all US related issues i stay grounded when i read their views on china and pakis. Iam sure bulk of our bureacracy brought up on a daily diet of The Hindu in the morning are prone to do the same. And its obvious that US has its panties in a twist because of this .

Writing an anti-US edit or essay doesnt always mean that they are batting for China and Pakis. US has the unique and reprehensible effect of erosion of sovereignty of every nation it dallies it. It may well be the case that they are stalling this process while other's like TOI, HT ,IE have already thrown in the towels - just like you.

And working for a detente with China doesnt always mean that they have palmed off india's sovereignty into the hands of "Stalinist rapist goons". By the way it is not the "Stalinist rapist goons" who are impinging or looking to impinge on India's soverginity day in and day out through its well funded minions in NGO's,Evangelist ,Multilateral Orgs,MNCs orgs,Political,Journalistic even Intelligence and bureacratic classes etc.

So stop raising the strawman of ProChina bias ("Stalinist Rapist goons" or whatever you are prone to use in every second post of yours) when ever you want to show your angst against the anti-US utterances made by Hindu or MKB.

Already the bulk of the english media in India is sold out and is visibly in the pockets of US and its western cohorts and now you are coming here and crying foul that even BRF be sanitised of anti-US views and Hindu should reform its anti-US bias ??
You Sir are unbelievable.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 07:32

Liloji thanks..though you are posting against me, at least you are making some decent arguments..

I am not talking of everyone having pro-Beijing agenda when they raise anti-US sentiments. I am talking of likely beneficiaries. It is different. Very different. One is deliberate agenda and another is inadvertent effect.

As to pro-Beijing agendas, like I said, the key test is the decibel level of noise they make when PRC does something against us, be it stapled visas, harassment of businessmen, supply of nooks or whatever.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2012 07:37

Suppiah wrote: I too consider making loud protests here and keeping quiet about serial killing of same Tamil fishermen by SLN a case of bias against USA. And an insult to many more tamils.

Bias against the USA is a given considering that the USA is an ally of Pakistan, not an enemy of Pakistan. And many more Indians have made more money and reached higher positions in India than in the USA. You did mention the latter as a mitigating factor favouring the USA. The same factor applies to Indians in India too.

I find it interesting that you describe fishermen killed by the Sri Lankan navy are Tamils, while a Tamilian fisherman killed by the US navy is an Indian.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 07:37

well funded minions in NGO's,Evangelist ,Multilateral Orgs,MNCs orgs,Political,Journalistic even Intelligence and bureacratic classes etc.

BTW, I agree with you on this..that is a threat no doubt but it does not lessen, in any way, the threat posed by leftists inspired by or encouraged by or funded by Beijing..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 07:41

shiv wrote:Bias against the USA is a given considering that the USA is an ally of Pakistan, not an enemy of Pakistan.

Docjee, that is changing..either temporarily or hopefully permanently..

TSP had / has two main 'sponsors' PRC and Unkil. I know you have been saying the latter is the bigger threat from that perspective and that all would be fine (or thereabouts) if Unkil stops funding TSP.

I would say the former is no less a factor. TSP has been having antagonistic relation with Unkil for a while now, and shows no decline in anti-India activities. Not until PRC too gives up on it.

There is another angle to it. Given a set of nations that are, for whatever reason, hostile or inimical to our interests, we have to separate them into those that are likely to stay that way, come what may or do what you, and those that can be brought around. IMHO Unkil is in the latter category - he can be bought off or brought around. TSP/PRC are in former. You may disagree...

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Jul 2012 07:45

Lilo wrote: Already the bulk of the english media in India is sold out and is visibly in the pockets of US and its western cohorts

Lilo the fact that we communicate in English is an illustration of the dominance of English language media. The viewpoint of the entities that dominate the anglophone airwaves will always be the dominant viewpoint.

I personally do not see any Indian language getting anywhere near that decibel level. As I see it the only alternative is for Indians to fight tooth and nail and claw their way up to dominate the English language airwaves and put an Indian narrative on the map over and above the decibel level of people who post the viewpoints of every other nation on earth.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 07:56

Lilo wrote: So stop raising the strawman of ProChina bias ("Stalinist Rapist goons" or whatever you are prone to use in every second post of yours) when ever you want to show your angst against the anti-US utterances made by Hindu or MKB.

Lilo, off thread,but I say that not just because it refers to actual crimes committed by our lal jhanda brigade in Nandigram and elsewhere but also because they show scant respect to those that dont like them and refer to anyone that speaks up for Hindus or their interests as 'fascist' and much worse. If you are so worried about evangelists and NGOs you should consider that too...

BTW, happy to take it up on another thread, but the threat posed by evangelist cabal, whether or not funded by Unkil (or more specifically Unkil-land), has to be taken on in an entirely different manner, with lots of careful handling. Again, our hands are tied by our 'sicular' Stalinist cabal, who are very close to these evangelists although they profess to being against Unkil's imperialism.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 25 Jul 2012 08:14

Pak and US are an estranged married couple.

US wants to use the Paks for various purposes including containing Yindoos, but Paks are not as pliant as desired.

Yindoos should simply maximize their own interests. As Emerson says, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 08:19

Yes..today we have a war imposed on us. By two of our neighbours. Who are relentless, impossible to placate or buy off. Even if you give entire Arunachal Pradesh and Kashmir away. Any help in fighting that is welcome, even if it comes from the worst human rights violating, imperialist, racist, double-dealing west. As long as we keep eyes open and live under no illusions..

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jul 2012 08:21

>> Any help in fighting that is welcome,

How about giving intelligence about the positions of Indian Army to Pakis? Is that welcome too?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 08:25

As the Balochi independence leader put it even help from satan is welcome. If unkil cheats us 99% of the time, let us find ways to deal with that, but if he helps us 1% of the time, take advantage of that..that is still better than PRC/TSP cheating us or screwing us 400% of the time.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 25 Jul 2012 08:36

is there something called 400%? Or is it 100%? Whats the difference that makes to an ordianry Indian for 99% and 100%?

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Jul 2012 09:14

shiv wrote: Lilo the fact that we communicate in English is an illustration of the dominance of English language media. The viewpoint of the entities that dominate the anglophone airwaves will always be the dominant viewpoint.

I personally do not see any Indian language getting anywhere near that decibel level. As I see it the only alternative is for Indians to fight tooth and nail and claw their way up to dominate the English language airwaves and put an Indian narrative on the map over and above the decibel level of people who post the viewpoints of every other nation on earth.

Shiv ji,
Things are precipitating in that direction already. The simple fact is you can't fool every one all the time all over the place what ever be the full sprectrum dominance you are capable of .
The campaign being drummed up in our soldout media against "Internet Hindus" is a pointer that this backlash against the paid media is reaching critical mass and this has been recognised by the powers that be. Obvious gripe is that currently the issues regarding which the MSM is pilloried by the Internet Hindu's are mainly related to Islamism - both paki and India based , antiHindu bias ,Congrez bias etc. There is still a long way to go before Indic middle class truely realizes and then voices its disapproval to the destructive role of West and holds to account the paid media on this issue too. Mainly because most of the middle class and bulk of youngistan(for the lack of a better word) is in thrall of US - and the thousand allurements which it supposedly promises to offer to one who strives to grasp at them.

Going OT for a while, I think to break this thrall there has to be a narrative of "Indic Dream" which has to be created and marketed - definitely not on a purely materialistic basis but with a good balance of materialism as well as spiritualism to differentiate from its american counterpart .This should all translate into low divorce rates, less domestic violence ,healthy familial ties, less suicide and crime rates - happy childhood etc - all of which were past traditional strengths of our society till they began to be questioned and shaken at their roots based on western imports like individualism and consumerism. Even the chinese are currently grappling with various moral dilemma thrown up by their blind superimposition of western values of consumerism and individualism on their traditional societies (which coincidentally had values quite similar to indic ones).
We must strive to avoid these transition pangs and the longer we experience(it has been 200 yrs already) the greater will be the digestion of our civilisation by west. However if we manage to put together action plan to counter this , the fact that indic society won't experience these can be marketed as the USP of the Indic dream. But more on this somewhere else.

Coming back, i feel english has to be digested and distorted till its quite divorced from its western counterparts .Coincidentally, i stopped giving importance to pronuciation sometime back and iam happier because of this. Further in this context i append a conversation i had with a reviewer on The Hindu a while back on "Agent Vinod"

.

Me<How is having a "clipped british accent" cool ?
Does this comment imply that a desi - lets say a thick bengali or tamilian flavour of english accent is uncool ..?

English is just a functional language for us Indians and holds no cultural significance whatso ever - which is to say that its usage is rarely evocative in indian context.

So the author should decolonize his mind while pondering the reason behind runaway success of "why this kolavari di" - even though it murdered purist english in every possible way>

Her<Thanks. You have a very valid point and it made me think: why did I say that about the clipped British accent?
And here's my response... not an explanation, not an answer (cos I don't really have one), just a response.

I think the clipped British accent is cool in Saif's case, because it comes naturally to him. If it didn't, it would be fake -- and that's uncool.
The reason Kolaveri di is such a rage is because it's real, not fake. It's not pretending to be sophisticated, it is about being yourself. And that's what makes it so cool, I think.
I think all Indians who talks English the way they want to, with any kind of accent -- clipped English, thick Tamil, whatever -- but confidently so, are cool (in this one aspect only!).
That's one half of my response.

The other half about English holding no cultural significance whatsoever I cannot agree with at all.
I think it has an enormous socio-cultural significance: it is the one language that helps Indians talk to each other. How can this be anything but hugely important and significant?
Why are you and I talking in English right now? How did you get to read my thoughts, how did they provoke you? Why do you read an English paper? Why is our Constitution written in English?
Would you think Nehru needed to decolonize his mind because he delivered his historic 'Tryst with destiny' speech in English?
I could go on in many other directions, but will stop.

Thanks again for the thought-provoking comment.
PS I'm a Ms, not Mr . >

Me<Thanks for your clarification. However it saddens me to report that a large segment of indian middle classes are not comfortable about the accent which they innately carry and strive to change it even to the point of being disparaging towards others who unlike them are not too self conscious of their accent. This myth of percieived disability imparted by a desi accent is amplified and propagated further within our corporate world - even if the particular company deals entirely in indian circumstances. Anyway i assume you are also familiar with this fact as there is no dearth of such characterisations in indian cinema.
Hence your and my privately held opinions though completely logical are not mainstream in general indian public. In this regard you being the media are well positioned to manufacture consent towards this change - while taking due care that existing stereotypes are not strengthened anymore. I promise you,it will be a great service to the millions of young stiffled voices who are currently struggling to confidently speak up.

Also, iam not against english as a link language - i mentioned its functional significance in my earlier comment. Rather iam of the view that english will be a perennial second language to a large mass of indians and they will still dream in their native languages and feel the sweetness of their respective native languages when they converse in it. This may not be apparent in urban settings now as many couples are in fact bringing up their kids with english as first language but then i hold that this phenomenon will be shortlived and as mentioned by nehru in his speech, the soul of a nation long suppressed is destined to speak out - in its own language/s
i might add .>

Her<Agree >

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Jul 2012 09:55

Suppiah wrote: Lilo, off thread,but I say that not just because it refers to actual crimes committed by our lal jhanda brigade in Nandigram and elsewhere but also because they show scant respect to those that dont like them and refer to anyone that speaks up for Hindus or their interests as 'fascist' and much worse. If you are so worried about evangelists and NGOs you should consider that too...

....with lots of careful handling. Again, our hands are tied by our 'sicular' Stalinist cabal, who are very close to these evangelists although they profess to being against Unkil's imperialism.

Suppiah ji,
Left is a receding force in domestic politics - but highly beneficial with respect to preserving Indian soverginity in foreign policy sphere against US encroachment into our systems. Even with regard to china they may have thrown their lot with them at the height of communist fervor in 60s, but Yechury has recently categorically stated that Chinese model of communism is no longer preferable and that they will strive for a yet undetermined Indian model of communism - which should further delink Indian left even from its faint vestigial links it retains with PRC from Mao's era.

This being said as you highlighted iam more worried about the propensity of left to serve as useful idiots to imperialists these days on human rights,kashmir,islamists etc - this may be the congrez effect seeping into Left but this is quite Bad for India. Left should prioritize Imperialists and global capitalists abroad rather than perceived fascists within - currently iam sure such a stream exists strongly at cadre level but is not dominant at the top AFIAK.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 10:22

Liloji, I would be very happy to believe that our comrades have cut off their links to PRC and stopped serving their interests. But I would wait until I see them take an independent stand, like the brave Lal Khan of TSP-land commie did, when he called the ruling cabal in Beijing neither communist nor a party but merely a bunch of corrupt elites or something of that sort.. Forgot where the link is, it was in TSP thread ..

Right now I only see them keeping quiet when Beijing does something outrageous, and acting as commission agents do when Huawei does not get included in bids and RFQs.

As to the useful idiot remark, it is not so much idiocy, it is convergence of agendas. The key thing that stops Stalinist cabal from grabbing power thru violence and keeping it thru support from Beijing is the Hindu culture/spirit whatever you call it. Destroy it, their path is clear. That is why they cooperate with imperialist satans whose hatred for Hinduism is driven out of 'marketing competitive product' considerations. That can be defeated with better marketing skills. But not our comrade agendas, that goes much further..

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 25 Jul 2012 12:12

@Suppiah
The USN shooting of an indian is an interpretable incident. ie, It's Mr X's word against Mr Y. Dump all the arbitrary BS. Instead focus on a pragmatic interpretation. The USN shot at an unarmed fishing boat which killed a person. That's bad. You cannot mitigate this.

Regarding indo-us relations... india has refused to become a "security partner" of the US in the south asia region. That is why the US military is personally putting its boot in this region.

Planet earth's resources are limited. Currently, a large chunk of that resource is gobbled up by the US. As china expands, it is going to create more demand(competition) on the already limited supply of resources.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 Jul 2012 12:19

Suppiah wrote:Liloji,.

Right now I only see them keeping quiet when Beijing does something outrageous, and acting as commission agents do when Huawei does not get included in bids and RFQs.

Suppiah ji, You are right but then there are many more who play the same role for American Cos. For every commission agent of Huawei , there are five more for Cisco and Boeings. Check out the profile of Abhishek Verma and who he was dealing with. Even this Pro American cabal has to be destroyed.

Against Communists we are already fighting.Every week some maoists are shot dead in some remote corners of India. But how many Pro American Indians have suffered the same fate.

You are not getting a simple thing. USA is and has been an enemy of India for quite some time now. No need to pretend otherwise. Our behaviour towards USA will be guided by this fact till the time it becomes neutral and leaves Asia for good. They can continue their trade activities. And yes they can choose to support us.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 13:11

Darshan, I agree there are agents for everyone, everywhere...And I would not bother defending Unkil's various shenanigans against India or others.

Somehow I am having hard time believing that if Unkil were to leave Asia and leave us in the good hands of Beijing, and we elect their 'friends' in India to guide us on our economic and foreign policy roadmap, we will be better off than we are today..It is a relative thing....cant put it better..

A lot of countries feel that way too, which is precisely why Unkil is now looking east and finding a lot of eager friends and PRC is friendless other than rogue regimes like TSP/NK. Yes, they trade with everyone and have started throwing cheques around, but the kind of hear-to-heart relationship at people level and all levels is simply missing. Not to talk of cultural and other influences.

Unlike TSP or their sponsors in Beijing, they don't have fundamental issues with our color, size, god or place in comity of nations. I wish I could say the same of the commies running PRC. Perhaps I will change my opinion when they are out of power and PRC becomes RC.

habal · Post by **habal** » 25 Jul 2012 13:19

USA per se is not an enemy, but USA is a tool being used by those who are enemies of mankind. And it is these forces that launch some war on an unsuspecting nation every decade which has later in the last three presidencies been more frequent like once in 5 years and more recently once in every few months. US has been a willing tool and willing to be used in destabilization of any regime that its controlling masters see fit. One should realize the nature of the beast before taking a stand that protects US interests.

the 'stalinist cabal' stands afar as a shivering, forlorn admirer forever waiting hoping to somehow emulate the majestic 'luciferian cabal' that guides US. There is absolutely no comparison in terms threat perception between the two.

If you take the tool and it's wielder as one and same then the US is not only an enemy of India, it's an enemy of mankind that is bent upon a philosophy of slow poison, at a scale the 'stalinist cabal' could never even have imagined. They game to get a section of populace hooked up to certain beliefs, comforts and way of life and then threaten to wean them away from their dream on guise of economic slippage, oversupply & whatnot to make new terms that can be compared to slavery of an entire population, which is the fate that awaits all americans. And if succesful extend this thereon to 'newly liberated' countries and from thereon the rest of the world.

Whatever that was shown as 'American dream' was a mirage to be used as a bait to allow further nationalities and critical numbers into the system, who would later be made into unquestioning slaves on threat of taking away this basic dream of quiet, peaceful, dustfree, technologically advanced, safe for their women, first world life that they were shown. These would later give an unquestioning multinational recruitment pool for armed forces who duly erased of their previous identities would be given a new identity, a compliant corporate workforce and an enforcement system that would work without bias against any race and against any nation on earth apart from corporate race in furtherance of interests of an western european elite. This multinational, hotch-potch population would hence become the feedstock for further expendionary wars, flagbearing corporate interests into newly liberated/conquered native colonies, working without conscience in science and industry, working unquestioningly in law-enforcement and so on.

the ability of this tool and it's wielder to do damage to India is of a far greater magnitude than present-day Pakistan's or that of any 'stalinist cabal' looking at the way they have managed to turn over a lot more Indian's to their cause than a Pakistan or beijin 'stalinist cabal' have managed to and could even dream to.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 Jul 2012 13:44

habal wrote:USA per se is not an enemy, but USA is a tool being used by those who are enemies of mankind. And it is these forces that launch some war on an unsuspecting nation every decade which has later in the last three presidencies been more frequent like once in 5 years and more recently once in every few months. US has been a willing tool and willing to be used in destabilization of any regime that its controlling masters see fit. One should realize the nature of the beast before taking a stand that protects US interests.
.............
..............

the ability of this tool and it's wielder to do damage to India is of a far greater magnitude than present-day Pakistan's or that of any 'stalinist cabal' looking at the way they have managed to turn over a lot more Indian's to their cause than a Pakistan or beijin 'stalinist cabal' have managed to and could even dream to.

Habal ji, I can also say the same about Pakistan that " Pakistan per se is not an enemy, but it is a tool used by those who are enemies of mankind " . One of the ways that I classify an enemy is on the basis of actions it has undertaken. And America's actions have been greatly damaging to India and hence it is an enemy. Rest all is a matter of semantics.

I am also not concerned what it does to the rest of the world provided those events do not take place Asia-Indian Ocean sphere. It can launch 100 invasions in Panama and Grenada, for all I care. It might sound vacant and even callous but it is what it is.

I agree with you completely that the ability of USA(tool in your words) to inflict destruction is much more than Pakistan.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 25 Jul 2012 13:49

Suppiah wrote:PRC is friendless other than rogue regimes like TSP/NK

Nepal would happily give its head on a platter to the chinese . So would srilanka. Both of them are willing to do that just to hurt india. Brute force power projection cuts through soft power. "Fear" is another synonym for "Respect".

Asia without china will create a power vacuum that will suck the US into it. You are assuming that these nations are in it for "benevolence".

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 Jul 2012 14:24

Suppiah wrote:Darshan, I agree there are agents for everyone, everywhere...And I would not bother defending Unkil's various shenanigans against India or others.

Somehow I am having hard time believing that if Unkil were to leave Asia and leave us in the good hands of Beijing, and we elect their 'friends' in India to guide us on our economic and foreign policy roadmap, we will be better off than we are today..It is a relative thing....cant put it better..

A lot of countries feel that way too, which is precisely why Unkil is now looking east and finding a lot of eager friends and PRC is friendless other than rogue regimes like TSP/NK. Yes, they trade with everyone and have started throwing cheques around, but the kind of hear-to-heart relationship at people level and all levels is simply missing. Not to talk of cultural and other influences.

Unlike TSP or their sponsors in Beijing, they don't have fundamental issues with our color, size, god or place in comity of nations. I wish I could say the same of the commies running PRC. Perhaps I will change my opinion when they are out of power and PRC becomes RC.

Suppiah Ji, By this post you are implying that Domination of Asia-Indian Ocean Region is a zero sum game between USA and China. If USA goes down, China will automatically fill the space. This a wrong assumption. China's demographics, their per capita income and their export based economy preclude it from dominating this region the same way as USA did. Apart from this, evolution of warfighting technologies in the next two decades has the potential of democratising warfare to the point that any so called super power will be hard pressed to dominate any part of the world.

I have no issues with USA providing security to Taiwan, Japan, Phillipines etc. Anyway this is more of Asia Pacific region.

Wrt your last paragraph, what can I say? It is the vice versa that is true. Few countries are more pragmatic than China. Even at capitalism they are proving to be better than Americans( even if it is state sponsored and driven). It is America which has become extremely ideological and believes in all sorts of treaties and sanctions. In contrast China never hesitates to do business even with its enemies.Just labeling them as commie is of no relevance.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 14:25

nvishal wrote: Nepalee Maoists would happily give its head on a platter to the chinese . So would srilanka. that was when we were needling them and they needed insurance policy. Now I think they are backing off a bit..

You put it so well..what is happening with Nepal + Maoists (who incidentally were coached by our comrade Yechury) is a prelude to what will happen to us when our comrades manage to gather power, by making useful idiots of anyone and everyone that is hating uncle for various reasons and by using evangelist cabal within Unkil-land..to carry out their anti-hindu pogrom.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 14:31

darshhan wrote:you are implying that Domination of Asia-Indian Ocean Region is a zero sum game between USA and China. If USA goes down, China will automatically fill the space. This a wrong assumption.

It very much is, at least in this part of the world. Already there was a huge outcry when that slimy Clinton tried to outsource South Asian affairs to PRC in exchange for PRC cooperating with Unkil on some other matters. That scenario is still possible. Like two mafia dons striking deals to carve out territory. If one goes, the other fills..no question about that..

You may disagree of course..

Few countries are more pragmatic than China

I am also pragmatic...I dont punch Tyson in his face. PRC will not take on Unkil directly. Look at what PRC is doing not what it is saying. It is creating trouble not just for us, also for Philippines, Japan and others. Pushing them into Unkil's lap. Not that they are not there already. Doesn't strike me as too pragmatic. Even wrt India, the very fact that only the Marxist cabal speaks up for them and both Congress and BJP are having a hard time building ties with them shows you...

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 25 Jul 2012 14:40

^^^^ Suppiah sir,

What is the difference between the Porki sewer inbreds next door and us if:

1) Just as they have the perennial fear of Hindu and will sell themselves to anyone to fight us, we get a perennial fear of PRC and sell ourselves to anyone who would fight them????
2) Just as they will allow their allies to kill and maim using dronacharya or AC-130 (salala) and get away with an apology, we allow our imaginary allies (the US) to kill our innocent fishermen and get away with 'expressing' regret.

Are'nt we falling prey to divide and rule here? Chacha Nehru with all his perversions towards idealism, did have a point with NAM!!

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 14:48

lakshmikanth wrote:^^^^ Suppiah sir,
What is the difference between the Porki sewer inbreds next door and us if:

Lakshmikanth, I never said dont take it up with Uncle or dont protest or follow-up etc. But only said dont fall prey to the false outrage of those that want to destroy the relationship for the benefit of other powers that are even worse.. If someone's argument is that GOI should ratchet up its decibel level by one or two points, I am all for it. Make noise, protest, send dossiers, demarches, remind them and so on..Who is stopping all that? But I am not for turning this into a prestige issue or spoil the relationship.

In diplomacy there is various grades of response, all the way from declaring war to completely ignoring it. You escalate step by step and in keeping with what the issue is and what the other side is doing, and above all what the overall state of relationship and strategy is. For instance, Turkey screwed Israel for Navi Marmara but acted cool when Syria shot down its plane.

For instance, when post Pokhran, Unkil threw a fit, and some of their poodles jumped around even more, BJP regime cleverly dealt with Unkil direct and treated the poodles as worst kind of scum that can be ignored.

That strategy paid off - now the same poodles are bendng over and offering us nuke materials.

Like I said, I look forward to positive suggestions on what GOI can do beyond what it has done. If I see one and if you care, I can offer my comments. As far as I am concerned the present reaction seems ok. Another 10%-20% stronger, may be yes, but we are into semantics here.

As to the larger issue of Indo-TSP-PRC ties and as a principle, I agree we should not sell ourselves to Unkil cheap just because we are scared of PRC. I don't think GOI is doing that, even though that is precisely what MKB types have been alleging. Playing games is another matter altogether, we play for our benefit, all the while looking for better options, even if they come from PRC camp.

Today if PRC can offer TSPs head on a platter, like I said several times earlier, I am all for burying the hatchet and working with PRC B ecause that will remove one threat and render another threat somewhat benign. But we watch our flanks still..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 25 Jul 2012 17:35

^^^ the US will express regret and then everyone will move on. in GW1 and 2 US killed more british troops than the eye-rakis - mostly through air strikes against anything that moves. there is muted outrage, an apology and then everyone moves on. there are limits to what unkil will do in these situations. but that doesnt mean that protests must not be made

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2012 19:45

Suppiah wrote:
Somehow I am having hard time believing that if Unkil were to leave Asia and leave us in the good hands of Beijing, and we elect their 'friends' in India to guide us on our economic and foreign policy roadmap, we will be better off than we are today..It is a relative thing....cant put it better..

Unkil is the not the solution for everything in the world and in our part of the world.
China cannot dominate all areas as feared and it is not capable. Its demographic will change in such a way that it will be left to tend itself inside.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 20:30

Acharya wrote: Unkil is the not the solution for everything in the world and in our part of the world.
China cannot dominate all areas as feared and it is not capable. Its demographic will change in such a way that it will be left to tend itself inside.

No doubt Unkil is capable of far more mischief given his resources. But PRC is no slouch. Whatever little weight it has, it has been throwing it around - be in Spratlys, S.China sea, E. Asia or in S. Asia. A lot of countries are worried about Unkil losing focus on E.A due to pre-occupation with ME. And are relieved that is changing with Iraq drawdown and the coming Afghan draw down. That frees up lots of time + resources. Why? Because they dont trust PRC. We too can't trust them - even on questions supposedly settled such as Sikkim, they go back on their words at the turn of a dime.

Unkil is a valuable insurance, FWIW against such PRC shenanigans. I don't see PRC changing under the commies who have a contemptuous disregard for India, its capabilities and its strengths. Even many ordinary chinese and columnists talk of slums and poverty as if they have become richest in the world. This very much mirrors TSP's scums' own "10 yindoos to one Pakbaric sort of arguments". The fact that they can exercise substantial control over the narrative here thru its proxies seems to embolden her further to completely disregard our strategic interests and always demand one sided obedience and compliance.

We have no economic competition with Unkil not for a long long time. But we do have one with PRC that is not gonna go away in any of our lifetimes. Plus the region is too small to have two lions in one cage..all of this means we are doomed to a more confrontational than cooperative stand against PRC, barring substantial regime change there that changes everything and merits a fresh look....or more likely, we raise PRC's cost to a point where they come to us with TSP's head and tell us "what more you want, let us carve out territory and both make money, you run the protection racket, I take over the drug trade" or words to that effect.

While not advocating toeing Unkil line on anything and everything, I would strongly advise we work this relationship to mutual benefit, not just one side's. We can draw lines firmly where it is patently against our interests.

A lot of the past hostility can also be traced to misplaced idealism on the part of our Nehru Chacha, who fresh from the struggle against the British, looked at Unkil thru' the same anglo-saxon colonialist imperialist prism and love and affection for our Chini bhai bhais. PRC slapped him huge on the cheek for that, and the poor man died broken hearted. He never recovered from that shock. Do we want that again when his great grand son is going to ascend the hierarchical throne, sworn in by a faithful dynasty servant kept ready for the job?

It is a chicken or egg thing, we can argue about it, but we too have taken a lot of anti-Unkil steps in the past, no doubt justified at that point because of something else that Unkil did. Or the other way around.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 25 Jul 2012 21:07

Suppiah wrote:
Acharya wrote: Unkil is the not the solution for everything in the world and in our part of the world.
China cannot dominate all areas as feared and it is not capable. Its demographic will change in such a way that it will be left to tend itself inside.
No doubt Unkil is capable of far more mischief given his resources. But PRC is no slouch. Whatever little weight it has, it has been throwing it around - be in Spratlys, S.China sea, E. Asia or in S. Asia. A lot of countries are worried about Unkil losing focus on E.A due to pre-occupation with ME.
Unkil is a valuable insurance, FWIW against such PRC shenanigans.
It is a chicken or egg thing, we can argue about it, but we too have taken a lot of anti-Unkil steps in the past, no doubt justified at that point because of something else that Unkil did. Or the other way around.

India cannot depend on others for security. India also has to first establish security relations with asian powers such as Japan etc before it can work with nations outside of the continent. China has to be taken up by the asian countries. It is a Asian problem.

This is independent of US military posture in Asia.

India is a nuclear power and there are no real military alliance between two nuclear pwoers. UK and France are western powers and they are part of NATO and evolved from WWII into a western alliance. India is a huge country and cannot really depend on another nuclear power.

India in the process of building its policy may have to test the nuclear weapons many times in the future. This is the reality and hard fact. It may be even upto 50 times. US may not like it but US cannot guarantee the security of 1.2 B Indians.
To avoid India from going further in testing US may try to offer military alliance with India and it may be for its own selfish interest to keep the world with less nuclear powers. But India cannot stop from what it has to do.

India has to live in a world which has evolved outside its control and it has no choice.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 21:14

^^^ Yes I agree, but I see no contradiction in doing that + working with Unkil where we can and where costs in terms of doing stuff we would not like to do minimal. The very fact that we are on one camp or can be in the same camp, would force PRC to think and perhaps put in a counter bid or act more reasonably. I already see signs of that...some Beijing columnists are talking that lingo, even as others try to browbeat and threaten India like the Global times folks. Also a lot of the regional countries, ASEAN, Korea and Japan included, are close to Unkil, so Unkil can help us draw closer to them - that is what H. Clinton means by 'encouraging India to look east'..there is obviously an Unkil agenda there but we can use those links to forge our own. None of them took us seriously as long as we were pretending to be non-aligned and toeing SU line.

We need slightly different strategy in WA/ME where PRC is less active and Unkil has deep hooks too. I think cultural and Islam links can be leveraged there..PRC is on much weaker grounds and Unkil is much more hated than admired.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 25 Jul 2012 21:27

Unkil, admittedly in self interest of selling reactors, facilitated our entry into the NSG club against stiff black balling and opposition from PRC, which their yellows here tried to cover up.. There may come a time when Unkil, in own interest, close one eye and wink if we test another 50 times..or go even beyond that.

Our rising economic strength + linkages to Western economies as high value suppliers and consumers, TSP's rising troubles with Unkil having its double dealing exposed, all create opportunities to play the card carefully and adroitly without of course, selling or short changing our independence or how it is perceived....that makes PRC really worried. They are responding in two ways - threats, and carrots. Bring it on, let us wait for more carrots to be shown..

Lilo · Post by **Lilo** » 25 Jul 2012 21:42

Suppiah wrote:...Plus the region is too small to have two lions in one cage..all of this means we are doomed to a more confrontational than cooperative stand against PRC,...

Suppiah ji,
Just pecause the peepeecee has subdivided Asia and created China and India sections doesnt mean that we are confined to this Sandbox destined to be at each other's throats for eterninty.
Actually i go

when ever i come across such a "two lions in one cage" comparision in western media but it gets my goat whenever an indian makes it and believes it while making it. I mean its OK making such a statement now and then looking to milk West but should never be made as we mean it.

Asia as it stands now is a creation of imperialist powers of an age bygone - India and China never had any say on what the boundaries of Asia should be.
So taking up a Geographical concept of such dubious origins and carving it up for ourselves and then fighting for territorial scraps within it is quite a foolish thing to do.

More or less, the Himalayas and malacca straits have marked off the physical and cultural dominance spheres of India and China in the past and that will be the case in the future too. The influence will only project outwards from these well defined walls into the pacific and into the indian ocean troughs inevitably. We have very good walls - so we have great potential to be good neighbours.

Even though Asia is a world in itself, India's potential influence sphere is not just confined to Asia - rather it forms a ring around the Indian Ocean including the East African coast and Australia, similiar is the case with China which as a major trading nation is exponentially expanding its business interests in its near periphery while its influence diffuses over the rest of the world inevitably.

Frankly i see a bitter competition (even confrontation) arising between India and China only when they compete for Western munificence - with regard to capital,technology and support in multilateral Institutions (NSG,UN,SC etc which are all frankly well disguised clearing houses of western power).If a battle occurs, iam more or less convinced that it wont be with regard to any trifling territorial disputes over fate of Tawang or Aksai Chin,nor over the fate of Tibet or DalaiLama they can be the ruse but never the root cause .
When both realize that they nolonger require the support of the west as such to maintain their growths at sustainable rates, it will automatically herald the era of cooperation.

Historically i feel China's animosity towards India started only after the Sino-soviet split and when china began desiring for external support from the west. Attack on India was like a demonstration of capability that it can be an effective tool for the West. Giving nuclear and misslie capability to pakis was also at the bidding of the West. If the Chinese would have declined to transfer this capability, West would have used some other third party - no big deal.

As for giving paki's head on a platter, the day the west is finally compelled to stop its support for Paki's - PRC support will immediately dry out. Currently the Paki project as it stands now is a contractual obligation for China with respect to the West from a previous century.

The Stalinistic cabal in PRC is a danger to India only as long as it is tributary to the Luciferian Cabal of the West.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Jul 2012 01:10

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/201 ... orant_show
Indian media slams Oprah for 'ignorant' program

Oprah Winfrey's special program on India drew the ire of several Indian media outlets on July 21, who called the show "myopic, unaware, ignorant and gauche." The program was featured in the "Oprah's Next Chapter" series, which has the long-time talk show star traipsing around outside the studio for "enlightening conversations with newsmakers, celebrities, thought leaders and real-life families."
Winfrey was criticized for reinforcing exotic and backward stereotypes of India, particularly when she commented that she heard that Indians "still" eat with their hands. "I don't know what people in America are eating their hot dogs, pizzas and tacos with but perhaps Oprah's home has evolved cutlery for all that," commented Rajyasree Sen, a columnist on Firstpost, an online Indian newspaper.
Rituparna Chatterjee, a blogger on the CNN-IBN website, slammed Oprah's comment, saying: "Using our hands to eat is a well established tradition and a fact none of us are ashamed of. Our economic distinction has nothing to do with it... You should know that."
Winfrey's interviews with slum-dwellers in Mumbai also provoked backlash. Sen notes:
And the slum is where Oprah's 'oh-my-god-how wonderfully-pathetically-quaint-to-be-so-poor' avatar stepped out in full glory...She asked the children how they could live in such a "tiny" room and actually wanted to know, "Don't you feel it's too cramped?" She also asked the six-year-olds whether they were happy. Which must have made them wonder why they shouldn't be. She then interrogated the father about whether he was happy and satisfied. He got teary-eyed and said that he wished he could earn more and provide for a more comfortable life for his children. After making him weep in front of his family, Oprah said that she knows how awful it is for children to see their father weep. She did look for a shower head in the toilet and seem amazed to hear they bathed with a bucket. And she marveled at how all their clothes fit onto a small shelf. She pointedly avoided any mention of the massive LCD TV which adorned their wall. That would have killed the sob story." The OWN has not commented on the attacks from Indian media, but Winfrey had remarked earlier that the trip to India was "her greatest life experience." Looks like the feeling wasn't

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Jul 2012 01:14

http://churchacronym.blogspot.com/2012/ ... regon.html
Let's raise up missionaries for Oregon and Maine

Recently my husband attended an afternoon meeting with a lovely couple from Campus Crusade who are raising support to help prostitutes in India get off the streets and into employment, and in the process hopefully bring them to Christ. Christianity is experiencing quite a drop off in Maine and Oregon according to some recent figures. Perhaps we could shore up the churches here. It's not as dramatic, but it might be a lot less expensive to turn the trend here at home rather than to have to start over in 50 years.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jul 2012 01:16

So Katherine Mayo lives again@!