Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

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RamaY
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

eklavya wrote:Godse's ideology and thinking was virtually identical to that of the Hindu-nationalists who accuse the Congress of pandering to muslims, etc. He was or had been a member of the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha, although the RSS is clearly ashamed about this association.
:rotfl:

How is this related to this thread?

MKG and JLN were responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Hindus. No wonder some people killed MKG. If Indian muslims doing riots in India is ok in view of Babri Masjid, then it is OK for a hindu to kill MKG.

Similarly Congress system is responsible for all the current ills of India - Poverty, unemployment, religious riots, lack of toilets, ruining of law and order, Muslim terrorism and Christian terrorism.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

eklavya wrote:Godse's ideology and thinking was virtually identical to that of the Hindu-nationalists who accuse the Congress of pandering to muslims, etc. He was or had been a member of the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha, although the RSS is clearly ashamed about this association.
Of course one can also find a well choreographed narrative in the case of Indira Gandhi's as well as Rajiv Gandhi's assassination!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Neela »

The worst case scenario is that the brits are trying to perpetuate their Raj era politics by actively propping up separatist elements in most of its colonies(one of the prime ones being India). Similarly, the NAM was just a facade to avoid joining the Amirkhan side. It was the Amirkhans who made the brits to give up their colonial possessions. Because the Amirkhans were looking to take over the baton. Like typical brit elites, they were playing from all sides. They were 'advising' the Amirkhans and taking their help in various matters, they were also planting those elites into power in the colonies(while freeing them) which would perpetuate the Raj in a crypto manner. Dear Chacha ji happened to be one such pliant elite who was chosen not because of his capability or popularity(both of which, he lacked), but because of his deracination and compliance. Of course, the brits may not be the only ones to have handle on uncle ji, others(like USSR) may also have had a handle on him.
. The socialist license raj path taken by Nehru was followed by Burma too. Guess where that fellow was educated?
When during key formative years, the time when as young men, your opinions, moral values and outlook are formed, you spend it abroad, how the hell do you understand the aspirations and needs of millions of fellow Indians? The environment is not the same, the language is not the same, the society is not the same, the social circle is not the same, the kind of people whom you look up to and form or derive your opinions on, are not the same - every single aspect of your life is totally disconnected from Indians and yet this guy walks into a highest office in the country.
Compare that with NM. Local boy. Unleashes the innate INdian spirit of hard work,entrepreneurship , that thing of turning stuff into wealth- what we have been doing for 1000s of years.
It is easy to dismiss posts here as "blaming everything on the British without taking responsibility" - but one must realize how deep we have gone into this stupidity. The six Indian "rithou"s are now replaced by 4 Europeans seasons. Well, that is just one of 1000s of years of observations and deductions discarded into the dustbin. The influence of Britain in our education is undeniable and all-pervading. And the worst thing about this is - you get to be labelled a Hindu fanatic when you point this out.
.Some , in the guise of being fair, try to paint it as "going overboard" . The very same people will not have a word against the Bretards but yet will jump at the first opportunity to defend the masters or start a "torn shirt open fly " type argument. The problem is that the lot are unsure about their loyalty and are almost apologetic at being INdian. And that is somehow interpreted as being fair and dharmic and use that reference to label others. They think being explicit , being direct , being brutal is somehow uncouth and uneducated. Well too bad. The growing army of new, young, "Internet Hindus" will get them one day, trample over them , and do not give a damn dcuk! They are just happy to take their offensive positions , shoot the unsure lot and mock them too! 2ndlook, sandeepweb, Rajiv malhotra, twitterati are just some who are out there. Maybe our time will come ...but many are not prepared to wait. And all have had enough if events at wharton are a metric.
Last edited by Neela on 29 Mar 2013 22:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

RamaY: RajeshA was proposing a conspiracy theory that Godse's assassination of Mahatma Gandhi was influenced by UK-loving Indians who caused Godse to kill Gandhi to benefit the British. If the conspirators in the Mahatma Gandhi assassination case turned out to be acting on behalf of the British, that would certainly be very convenient for the RSS, whose ideological record is otherwise forever tainted by the assassination of India's greatest leader by one of its former members.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

RajeshA wrote:
eklavya wrote:Godse's ideology and thinking was virtually identical to that of the Hindu-nationalists who accuse the Congress of pandering to muslims, etc. He was or had been a member of the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha, although the RSS is clearly ashamed about this association.
Of course one can also find a well choreographed narrative in the case of Indira Gandhi's as well as Rajiv Gandhi's assassination!
RajeshA: a full investigation was done in all these cases; the Supreme Court handed out sentences to the guilty.

Is there any institution of the modern Indian state that you trust, or do you think that they are all just serving foreign interests?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by ranjbe »

eklavya wrote:Godse's ideology and thinking was virtually identical to that of the Hindu-nationalists who accuse the Congress of pandering to muslims, etc. He was or had been a member of the RSS and the Hindu Mahasabha, although the RSS is clearly ashamed about this association.
]
Godse also was a member of the Congress party at one time, and with fellow conspirator Apte, formed his own party at the very end because he did not agree with any mainstream parties. Instead of reading wiki, read authorative books from that time, such as that of Col. Molgaonkar, who had extensive interviews with Nathuram Godse's brother and other living memebers of the conspiracy after they were released.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

eklavya wrote:If the conspirators in the Mahatma Gandhi assassination case turned out to be acting on behalf of the British, that would certainly be very convenient for the RSS, whose ideological record is otherwise forever tainted by the assassination of India's greatest leader by one of its former members.
That is of course hypothetical, however one can certainly say that Mahatma Gandhi's assassination was indeed very convenient for the British as RSS's ideological record was forever tainted by the assassination of "India's greatest leader" by one of RSS's former member and so the Brits could install a PM-of-choice on the Indian throne without any serious future opposition to him in sight.

The only man who could question JLN's work was Gandhi who was disposed off, thus killing any internal opposition in INC and external opposition in RSS.

Could they asked for something more perfect under the circumstances of leaving India!

Another thing to ponder is that whether the British themselves had set up a few Indians within the RSS as undercover agents. Is it not natural that the Brits would be having their agents in the various organizations in India at the time? So what stops the Brits from using these agents for something which was clearly in their interest?!
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

RajeshA, Nehru-ji was Mahatma Gandhi's choice, the INC's choice, and the choice of the people of India, who voted for him enthusiastically in numerous free and fair elections. Nehru-ji was a great Indian nationalist, and not a British stooge.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RajeshA »

eklavya wrote:RajeshA, Nehru-ji was Mahatma Gandhi's choice, the INC's choice
and British choice!

The point is that after Nehru sat firmly in the PM seat, naturally after MK Gandhi chose JLN as crown prince, there was no further use of MK Gandhi, either for JLN or for the British. In fact MK Gandhi presented a dangerous variable in the equation.

JLN was chosen by MK Gandhi because he represented both a future India's ability to talk to the world, considering that JLN had had quite some international "experience", in fact a bit too much, and secondly because he was needed to ensure peace with the Muslims in India, two factors both under the control of the British - the international arena and the Subcontinental Muslims.

So even on this score MK Gandhi was maneuvered to choose JLN.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by devesh »

actually, Nehru wasn't INC's choice.

wasn't there an internal INC election in the 40's to elect the would-be PM candidate? and reportedly, all but 1 PCC Chairs voted for Sardar Patel. specifically, it was 14 out of 15 PCC Chairs. But MKG overrode the vote, and got JLN "elected".

so, the notion that the INC wanted JLN is not true. MKG wanted JLN.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

pity the clients of the UK based retarded abuser. They are possibly being sucked dry by a clever liar who keeps silent on all the details that would warn his clients off in sufficient time. He still has not the basic spine to do the needful research from his much beloved master's scholars about what they thought of "Nehru-ji's" foreign policy, and what the reality of that foreign policy was. He still will remain silent on how JLN kept on postponing buying the Soviet fighters and on whose urging. The retarded hagiographer will remain dishonestly silent on how UK FO/CO successfully guided the organization and evolution of the steps towards the Bandung meet - by manipulating the majority of the commonwealth countries. He will similarly remain completely silent on how many scholars now agree that the one of the most successful moves from JLN's antics at and towards Bandung - was the partial rehabilitation and growing acceptance of Chou and China in Asian and African circles.

All of which were aligned to British interests. No - the liar cannot acknowledge all that, just as he remained completely silent on the Stevens report while he abused viciously those who did not agree to his demand that everyone must believe his claim of UK authorities strictly constrained by "law".
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

retardator definitely said all British-educated Indian leaders (which would include Subhas Chandra Bose and Indira Gandhi) to this day are collaborators, and now he is pretending he did not write those words.

retardator has painted himself into a corner by suggesting Nehru-ji was serving British foreign policy interests, because the examples of Bandung and NAM leave retardator with nowhere to hide his obvious embarrassment.

retardator has always displayed a deep seated inferiority complex about the British, and it seems that this inferiority complex encompasses Indians educated at leading British universities (almost certainly a form of self-loathing and self-pity arising from retardator's second rate academic credentials), who he consoles himself are all collaborators.

retardator knows absolutely nothing about fighter aircraft, because otherwise he would know that the IAF opted for the MiG-21 in 1961, while Nehru-ji was PM, and barely 2 years after it was first inducted into the Soviet forces in 1959. retardator is too ignorant to know that the Hunter's India bought in the 1950s were clearly superior to the Soviet MiG-19.

retardator's pathetic lies and half-wit utterances have been thoroughly exposed. retardator is after all a man who cannot add, and cannot bring himself to admit that he cannot add.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lilo »

eklavya wrote: .......this inferiority complex encompasses Indians educated at leading British universities (almost certainly a form of self-loathing and self-pity arising from retardator's second rate academic credentials), who he consoles himself are all collaborators.

.... is too ignorant to know that the Hunter's India bought in the 1950s were clearly superior to the Soviet MiG-19.
:rotfl: :rotfl:
Saar ji, you are Howlarious
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

will the liar hagiographer of the Raj and Nehru
(1) put it down that there is no scholarly assessment of Nehru's limited impact as far as British strategic needs were concerned, that there is no scholarly conclusion that JLN's moves at Bandung helped China and Chou, that there is no scholarly record or British FO/CO manipulating and shaping up the "delegates" at Bandung to a sufficient degree.

(2) can he drop his finance/managers sleek lying and misrepresenting hat to point where British-university-education was equated to the "class that collaborated" in the discussions following on from the post on honbl PM MM Singh's Oxford acceptance speech? invention of lies and their attribution was a characteristic of the British propaganda machinery - so its not that surprising coming from this retarded liar.

(3) can he again formally put it down that there was no "influence" or pressure on Nehru from anyone connected to UK to postpone going ahead with buying Soviet aircraft? He was claiming that JLN went against UK to go along with Soviets. I had not mentioned which period of "sale" and postponement I was talking about - and no Hunter/Mig was mentioned - simply to wait and see which part of the chain of events the liar whitewasher of the British record chooses to feign silence on. The liar has a habit of handwaving and ignoring factoids when they go against his bootlicking propaganda.

(4) can the liar finally acknowledge and explain as to why he pretended not knowing about public domain material like the stevens report while he was shouting about how constrained the British state and police were to act within the "constraints" of the "law"? It would be refreshing to even hear once truth from him that he deliberately kept silent on it because otherwise his agenda of whitewashing British state role would be jeopardized!

As an interesting issue raised by this clever obfuscator of issues : if we compare the various "leaders" getting "educated at British universities"

S.C.B : <1 year - as part of requirement for ICS - Fitzwilliam Col.
Sardar Patel : 2.5 years - not at Brit "school" or "college" but to qualify for the legal practice.
JLN : 7 years - from 1905 to 1912 - all the way from "schooling" to graduation to qualifying at the "Bar".
C. Rajagopalachari : :(
Babu Rajendra Prasad :(
PVNSR :(

The case of IG's "education at British uni" is interesting on its own: from the polite wiki summary
Indira was mostly taught at home by tutors, and intermittently attended school until matriculation in 1934.[nb 1] She went on to study at the Viswa Bharati University in Calcutta.[12] A year later, however, she had to leave university to attend to her ailing mother in Europe.[13] While there, it was decided that Indira would continue her education at the University of Oxford in Britain.[14] After her mother passed away, she briefly attended the Badminton School before enrolling at Somerville College in 1937 to read history.[15] Indira had to take the entrance examination twice; having failed at her first attempt, with a poor performance in Latin.[15] At Oxford, she did well in history, political science and economics, but her grades in Latin—a compulsory subject—remained poor.[16][17]

During her time in Europe, Ms. Indira was plagued with ill-health and was constantly attended by doctors. She had to make repeated trips to Switzerland to recover, disrupting her studies. She was being treated by the famed Swiss doctor Auguste Rollier in 1940, when the Nazi armies rapidly conquered Europe. Indira tried to return to England through Portugal but was left stranded for nearly two months. She managed to enter England in early 1941, and from there returned to India without completing her studies at Oxford. The university later conferred on her an honorary degree.
That makes <4 years [no way of counting continuous attendance proportion]

If patterns are to be made out - with duration of "propah British uni education" - seems like there is a negative correlation with positive role for India.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Ah well I see that liar hagiographer of Raj+JLN is actually twisting the mention of "acknowledgement" of the "idea" or perception as coming out in the speech - that of "recognition" and "sending out rulers" - as my supposed equating of the "British uni edu" with "collaboration".

The retardation didn't allow the hagiographer to see that this was a sentiment given in the speech - and I did not give the speech.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Prem »

Godse was not the first one who tried to get to MKG. I think Pahwa is still alive and live some where near Delhi. MKG Sealed his fate with the imhuman advise he gave to Punjabi HIndus and Sikhs. Had he lived for anotehr decade or so, India would have fallen back into 17th Century again.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

retardator, whose peculiar behaviour patterns (including the inability to add) fit those of a failed third-world academic with an England sized chip on his shoulder (the failure being attributed to those who rightly judged him a failure, rather than to his own manifest dishonesty and ineptitude, on full display above), is continuing to invent blatant lies.

retardator clearly alleged that the past and present rulers of India with a British education constitute a "collaborator class" which are holding India back to the present day. Now retardator is pretending that he only meant Nehru-ji (who died in 1964) and possibly Dr. Manmohan Singh (who became PM in 2004) (so what happened to the collaboration with the British in the intervening 40 years?).

Indeed, to salvage some tidbits of pride, retardator is disingenuously and stupidly claiming that other Indian leaders who went to the UK for their higher education were intended to be excluded from his half-witted definition of the British-educated "collaborator class".

In summary, the retardator now regrets (but being a habitual fabricator, he cannot admit to this) calling many of India's greatest leaders "collaborators" because his arguments are worthless and indefensible, just like the retardator.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by devesh »

eklavya wrote:fit those of a failed third-world academic with an England sized chip on his shoulder
you realize that you are on a forum of a country which is also considered "third world", right?

perhaps, just to keep up the appearances, you might consider doing us all a favor and not insult us? or is that too much to ask?

so a failed "third-world" academic has a special distinction as opposed to a failed "first world" academic, right?

you really have no more room on this forum, at least not in any respectable fashion.

what are the admins doing?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

And ekalavya still cannot face up to explaining why he pretended that no evidence existed in the pubic domain that went against his claim that the British state/police were constrained by the "letter of the law"?

Now I see no readiness to deny existence of material that goes against his claim of resounding success for JLN at Bandung, or that UK FO/CO did succeed in manipulating a lot of that conference, or that JLN's actions helped Chou and China.

No readiness to deny existence of any factoid about anyone from UK bringing pressure on JLN about not buying Soviet aircraft.

No facing up to the record relevant to his own concoction about "UK uni edu" and "collaborator" class. The word "foundation" came after a full quote from a speech by honbl PM. It is the speech which clearly gives two attitudes - one about Indian "confidence" being linked to "recognition by British unis" and the other was about british uni sending out "rulers" of India. Ekalavya in his obscene hurry - transfers MMS ji's observations on to me. I merely noted the attitudes and suggested that this attitude was the "foundation" of the collaborator class.

However since he brought the issue up - looking at the key-post holders - the duration and level of British uni education against SCB, SVP, JLN, CR, RP, and subsequently even PVNR [ I have skipped Rajiv - who had an on-and off stint of total 4-5 years] is there for everyone to conclude from.

devesh ji,
its alright. He is unlikely to be connected to "third" level education sector. Expression and word usage.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

In fact my apologies to all who read my posts - for using the some of the same words as used by ekalavya, in angry retort. My apologies again for using the word "retard" in reply to use of the same by ekalavya. Calling some one a betrayer/traitor is not the same as calling someone a "retard". Ekalavya is obviously faithful to his profession but he is no academic, or an incredible liar and peretender who keeps this side of his character hidden in working life if he is in academics. Mere use of this word in higher education sector would lead to potential loss of job.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Lilo »

Methinks Ekalavya ji seems to be a irretrievable case of
Upper Hand with PhD, this time fram a "leading British university" compared to the "secund rate credentials" of academics fram turd wurld varsities

clicky

Ekalavya ji ,
did you really think that you can passoff empty arguments as facts while labeling another person "Retardator" (whateva that means) twenty times in a page ?
All this time , after all that namecalling and first wurld PhD giri you could not give to your argument any more weight than it deserved or even cover for the absence of proof and sources.
Frankly saarji such empty bluster wont work here .
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

brihaspati wrote: The word "foundation" came after a full quote from a speech by honbl PM. It is the speech which clearly gives two attitudes - one about Indian "confidence" being linked to "recognition by British unis" and the other was about british uni sending out "rulers" of India. Ekalavya in his obscene hurry - transfers MMS ji's observations on to me. I merely noted the attitudes and suggested that this attitude was the "foundation" of the collaborator class.
Dr. Manmohan Singh did not make any statement that corresponds even remotely to your typically twisted interpretation of his speech.

Although you may consciously or subconsciously believe it, there was absolutely nothing in Dr. Manmohan Singh's speech which said that the British-educated are the "best rulers of India".

Very clearly you wrote about "the side that was handed over power", which you then clearly identified as the "collaborator class", which you said "remains the fundamental block in India truly finding itself ...", and then wrote "the collaborator class remains active".

Now, you have changed your tune. Now, according to you, other than Nehru-ji, none of India's post Independence leaders were actually British-educated, so that rather blows an England-sized hole through your thesis (received pronunciation) / faeces (as pronounced in a South London accent, and rather more apt in this instance) about an active "collaborator class" "that was handed over power" and has been serving British interests ever since.

Why don't you just give up obfuscating and dissimulation for a few days? You can see its not working :)
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

I clearly pointed out MMS's attitude - he connected Indian "self confidence" with recognition from UK unis, and he pointed out UK university sending out rulers of India.

This attitude was the "foundation" of the collaborator class. No obfuscation here. As for British uni educated rulers - ah yes, the record is obvious in the number of years cited in my ref. JLN tops the list. Political "class" - who dominated the admin and state policy. The lesser the number - less share in power. Its the dynasty - which holds the higher proportion of UK uni education among the "leaders". The direct descent three PMs from the dynasty - all hold longer "UK education" years than others around the upper echelon.

The foundational attitude is reflected in being dpendent on the UK for approval and a feeling that UK uni trained [especially as for the speaker - Oxford] were fit to rule India. You can fail to the see the complete lack of any sensibility and the absolute shamelessness with which such a speech from such a post-holder mentions "Oxford" sent rulers of India - given the fact that the speaker himself was taking pride in his "Oxford" training and the fact that he happened to be key "ruling" individual in the current setting of Republican constitutional practice. But it clearly shows a mental dependence and an unspoken by deliberately hinted pride in identifying with being one in a long line of "sent to rule" from Oxford.

Those who were not trained by UK unis for 4-7 years like most of the post-holders from the dynasty were - still had endearing cute comments to make about the comparative desirability and value of the Brits where "admin/ruling" was concerned -as in CR. The difference appears to be that even among those who were not "trained" in UK "propah" those who found nice things to say about the Brits - appeared to have survived the Raj purges with some rewards - but of course not the key power - which was reserved for the longest UK-trained person. Bose had an ultra short stay, had almost nothing to say good of the Brits - and therefore spent many of his prison days in exile and of course was finally "accidented".

True - the attitude was not conditionally exclusive to Brit uni training - many had the same attitude without stepping on British home turf. But they did not get the top post either.

Maybe you also have not heard of the MKG given logic as to why he preferred JLN to be "arranged" to be elected "uncontested" at the CWC meeting over and above Kripalani and SP (13 out of 15 provincial committees had chosen SP, 1 Kripalani). MKG explicitly gives the "English" aspect of JLN as the reason - education/interface/training. Do some honest research - thsi particular comment is public domain and on a reliable source.

You have still not acknowledged why you pretended not knowing about the record of UK police's not constrained by the letter of the law where separatism was concerned even on non-terrorists or non-violents.

Are you or are you not saying that
(1) no estimate exists as to JLN's lack of "success" at Bandung, that JLN's actions only bolstered Chou and China, and the discussions/organization/evolution of the Bandung conference was successfully manipulated and penetrated by the UK FO/CO.

(2) no record exists of any UK connection to JLN postponing any buying of any Soviet aircraft? According to you JLN went against the UK in connecting with the Soviets.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

The PM's speech at Oxford contained nothing remarkable. Certainly nothing to justify frothing at the mouth about a British/foreign educated "collaborator class" which is a "fundamental block".

Since you casually hurl abuse at those who have dedicated their lives to India as "collaborators" (while lining your own pockets with money earned at foreign universities, which although your god given right, does put you at a tricky moral vantage point versus those who serve India in India) and have form as far as insulting Indians you disagree with as "serving British masters" and "British bootlickers", you no longer have any right to feel aggrieved for being called a member of the "retard class".

It appear you are calling for an end to hostilities, which I will agree to, but provide you put an end to the loathsome practice of labelling other patriotic Indians as collaborators.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by RamaY »

MMS, SG and their termite are patriotic Indians :rotfl:
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Neela »

Dr.Gautam Sen on the Crisis of India

One telling paragraph.
The folly of parliamentary politics and the attendant downright inappropriate form of constitutional governance stands exposed in all its virulent consequences. Parliamentary representation identifies, articulates and amplifies every active and dormant fault-line and division in Indian society. And it privileges the political entrepreneur most competent to exploit them to ensure that they worsen and endure. The divide-and-rule of imperialism has become the monstrosity of divided rule by the incumbent natives, who have seized its every demonic facet to preside over the precipitous downward spiral of their inheritance. Pre-existing caste, religious, linguistic and regional divisions, efficiently deployed by imperial Britain to keep the natives in their place, have flourished since her departure because the Indian Constitution facilitates and promotes them.
Any which way we cut it, the British influence has led us to our ruin. With gaping wounds and festering rotting organs, we still fail to acknowledge the cause.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by archan »

Ahem ahem. Gentlepeople, I am back, please start a new thread sans all the historic gyan. What is this reference to the retardator ?
brihaspati
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

ekalavya,
I did not see it as "war" or "hostilities". So my points and theses remain. I just realized on a cooler head that using words and phrases that you do - is in general against my habit and policy and lowers me in my self esteem. I do not want to become like you - an Indian origin person who abuses other Indians in order to blindly protect the image of three entities - British state and imperialist attitudes + JLN + Congress.

Your persistent habit of keeping silent on the perfidy of all three while you are challenging critics of your claims of saintliness for them or lack of such perfidy for the three - is a sign of deep dishonesty, as shown in your pretension and complete silence on the Stevens report. Your pretended show of lack of perception of what MMS ji hints and implies in his speech - clearly - in association with "self-confidence" and British unis sending "rulers" of India, in the context of his own presence there as both PM and alumnus, also shows that you will sink down to any level of asininity to defend or clear the image of anything connected to the trimurthy of Brit+JLN+Congress. It also shows you as belonging to the same class with similar attitudes.


As you can see in the point you twisted into "British uni education" generates "rulers" rather than my original point being attitudes - the class that got power was indeed overtly more sympathetic to the British state than those who didn't. Even among them, those who spent less time in British unis got pushed down to less significant or less powerful positions in the hierarchy. The fact that as a class as whole - it was the attitude - the favour or esteem awarded to Britain as a state and society and psychological dependence on approval or esteem from the British - is there on record from the numerous comments that the "class that got power" made.

The longest times in top power - have been hogged by those who had longest stints at British unis - the dynasty and Shri MMS. This was not something I had considered - but thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

If you are honest, which I doubt now over the way you have deliberately kept silent on contra-evidence - you will look up MKG's specific comment on why he wanted JLN to be elected unopposed in the CWC leadership issue. He specifically mentions the "British education" and the British "aspects" of the persona of JLN. CR makes some pretty nice comments as to why he prefers/relies more on Brit officers than on Indians. etc. The attitudinal leaning is obvious.

There was no "hostility" so no question of withdrawal. Your use of the term betrays your attitudes towards debate - which I would say is a very political party affiliation one. Neither have I changed my views or positions on the combined role of the three for India.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

I will post when I have time on the comments made by our illustrious leaders on their views on themselves vis-a-vis English/British. The first easy one coming to mind is that by JLN to his "close friend" the economist J.K.Galbraith [who noted JLN's extraordinary devotion to his (Galbraiths') wife] that he(JLN) "was the last Englishman to rule India". People can search out the reference if they are willing.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

I do believe this is being uncharitable and in fact may display the lack of insight characteristic of 'presentism'. Japan went through the same process of identification, emulation and idealisation of the west. It still idolises white people, embarrassingly so.

At least Indians never went so far as to call for the importing of Europeans to improve the local stock as some Japanese did during the Meiji period.


Raman explicitly stated that the Indian mind was the equal of the Teutonic mind. Demonstrating the metric and obligations, mental, of the Indian races.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_19686 »

sanjaykumar wrote:I do believe this is being uncharitable and in fact may display the lack of insight characteristic of 'presentism'. Japan went through the same process of identification, emulation and idealisation of the west. It still idolises white people, embarrassingly so.

At least Indians never went so far as to call for the importing of Europeans to improve the local stock as some Japanese did during the Meiji period.

Raman explicitly stated that the Indian mind was the equal of the Teutonic mind. Demonstrating the metric and obligations, mental, of the Indian races.
Ambedkar did so, see Shourie`s book on him for more info.

Did you see MMS`s Oxford speech.

In it you find the following nugget:

“Not just by the perceived negative consequences of British imperial rule… “

India is ruled by Sonia & her representative MMS categorically stated that Hindus are second class citizens when he said that ``minorities have the first claim on resources``.

Indeed he is successfully implementing a form of Jizya through RTE, just as Hindus used to convert to escape Jizya under the Sultanate & Mughal rule, you have reports of conversions to Islam to escape RTE. See Sushputi`s recent post about it.

Let me see any Japanese PM saying Chinese, Korean or European immigrants have first claim on resources in Japan and get away with it.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

sanjaykumar wrote:Raman explicitly stated that the Indian mind was the equal of the Teutonic mind. Demonstrating the metric and obligations, mental, of the Indian races.
sanjaykumar ji, is it CV Raman? Sir, you also do talk very obliquely. I am unable to grasp the full import of Raman's statement, most probably due to a lack of background in history. Can you expand please?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

Yes C. V. Raman upon his return from Europe did express this satisfaction.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by member_19686 »

matrimc wrote: sanjaykumar ji, is it CV Raman? Sir, you also do talk very obliquely. I am unable to grasp the full import of Raman's statement, most probably due to a lack of background in history. Can you expand please?
He was referring to this:

http://bharatendu.com/2008/11/08/from-a ... -birthday/
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by brihaspati »

Why replace the British with the Teutonic? In fact even the so-called "Teutonic" is an ascribed identity of dubious medieval invention. That is the whole point on which I objected many pages ago. Why the need to fix the "other" as the scale - the mirror against which the Indian mind should be measured and from which Indian minds should look for approval to have "self confidence"?
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

After thinking through the "metric and obligations" bit in the shower, I did get the meaning. But his observation could be taken the other way round too - that the metric and obligations are being set for the Teutonic races. Were CVR and Tilak contemporaries? I will look it up. Might explain somethings, given Tilak's thesis about the Aryan homeland and the provenance of the people in the British Isles. (last post in difeference to the circling "dronacharaya" :))
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 31 Mar 2013 02:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

brihaspati wrote: - the mirror against which the Indian mind should be measured and from which Indian minds should look for approval to have "self confidence"?
b ji, I think that's what sanjay kumar ji was saying too, his point (if I understand correctly) being that even somebody of the mental stature of CV Raman could not get past the weight of 200 years of British rule.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by sanjaykumar »

I hope my meaning does not come across as elliptical. Yes you did get it matrimc Saab.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by Vayutuvan »

Surasena wrote:He was referring to this:
Thanks. Reading both speeches is quite illuminating.
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Re: Indo-UK News & Discussion 9th Aug 2011

Post by eklavya »

brihaspati wrote:ekalavya,
I did not see it as "war" or "hostilities". So my points and theses remain. I just realized on a cooler head that using words and phrases that you do - is in general against my habit and policy and lowers me in my self esteem. I do not want to become like you - an Indian origin person who abuses other Indians in order to blindly protect the image of three entities - British state and imperialist attitudes + JLN + Congress.

Your persistent habit of keeping silent on the perfidy of all three while you are challenging critics of your claims of saintliness for them or lack of such perfidy for the three - is a sign of deep dishonesty, as shown in your pretension and complete silence on the Stevens report. Your pretended show of lack of perception of what MMS ji hints and implies in his speech - clearly - in association with "self-confidence" and British unis sending "rulers" of India, in the context of his own presence there as both PM and alumnus, also shows that you will sink down to any level of asininity to defend or clear the image of anything connected to the trimurthy of Brit+JLN+Congress. It also shows you as belonging to the same class with similar attitudes.


As you can see in the point you twisted into "British uni education" generates "rulers" rather than my original point being attitudes - the class that got power was indeed overtly more sympathetic to the British state than those who didn't. Even among them, those who spent less time in British unis got pushed down to less significant or less powerful positions in the hierarchy. The fact that as a class as whole - it was the attitude - the favour or esteem awarded to Britain as a state and society and psychological dependence on approval or esteem from the British - is there on record from the numerous comments that the "class that got power" made.

The longest times in top power - have been hogged by those who had longest stints at British unis - the dynasty and Shri MMS. This was not something I had considered - but thank you for pointing me in the right direction.

If you are honest, which I doubt now over the way you have deliberately kept silent on contra-evidence - you will look up MKG's specific comment on why he wanted JLN to be elected unopposed in the CWC leadership issue. He specifically mentions the "British education" and the British "aspects" of the persona of JLN. CR makes some pretty nice comments as to why he prefers/relies more on Brit officers than on Indians. etc. The attitudinal leaning is obvious.

There was no "hostility" so no question of withdrawal. Your use of the term betrays your attitudes towards debate - which I would say is a very political party affiliation one. Neither have I changed my views or positions on the combined role of the three for India.
You fly into an abusive rage when presented with evidence about the success of the leading British universities that contradicts your own statement about the condition of the British education system.

You find it impossible to admit to having made a simple arithmetical error.

You think that the Taj Mahal is only considered beautiful because the British were intent on promoting Islamic artistic achievements.

You hold the INC responsible (due to their concerns for British sensitivities) for the BJP government's decision to not release certain papers about Subhas Chandra Bose.

You believe that the litmus test of the Indo-UK relationship is whether the British government treats perceived Khalistan-affiliated Sikhs in the UK in the violent illegal manner that perceived IRA-affiliated Republicans were treated during the Troubles. You also believe that the British government in this day and age would face no legal constraints were it to follow this path.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -editorial

You believe Mahatma Gandhi, Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, Dr. Manmohan Singh and the INC in general are British-educated "collaborators" serving British, not Indian, interests.

I leave it to you to describe your own political and ideological pathology.
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