Indian Naval News & Discussion - 12 Oct 2013

[Kartik]

Very interesting new perspective on the fallacy of the US Navy's emphasis on Aegis class cruisers and destroyers employed in a layered defence to protect aircraft carriers..the suggestion is to move to a single dense layer defence which can employ smaller, shorter range, cheaper missiles, which can be carried in larger numbers, leaving the costlier SM-2 and SM-6 missiles to target the launching platform themselves.

USN Surface ships need more offensive punch outlook

[brar_w]

Very interesting new perspective on the fallacy of the US Navy's emphasis on Aegis class cruisers and destroyers employed in a layered defence to protect aircraft carriers..the suggestion is to move to a single dense layer defence which can employ smaller, shorter range, cheaper missiles, which can be carried in larger numbers, leaving the costlier SM-2 and SM-6 missiles to target the launching platform themselves.

USN Surface ships need more offensive punch outlook

Not quite what will eventually happen but this does raise something that the USN is actively aware off. Firstly, the SM2,SM6, ESSM are very much needed despite of the cost. The cost of the weapon is not the only factor that must be looked at. Its the cost of loosing the platform and the cost of the platform the weapons are protecting (mission and payload). Area denial is achieved through a host of means, and what the Chinese themselves are doing is adding 2 or three elements through which they can deny the presence of the USN. Cruise missiles off of bombers or long range strikers, DF21, and swarm missions. The degree to which they can saturate is as a general rule of thumb directly proportional to how close the USN wants to go. So, if they want to stand off, they themselves would require less number of shooters under this assumptions.

For years, the folks have been criticizing the CAW for not having the go out and intercept capabilities of the F-14. In fact the F-14 has had a strange fan following. It was attacked for being unreliable when in service and the moment it was pulled out it all of a sudden generated cult following as if it was the best thing since sliced bread. The SM6 is in a way your Interceptor, with its 200nm range (classified but thats what is largely believed), especially under NIFCCA where you can feed it targets using either the E-2D, F-35, F-18 or UCLASS (No need for the ship's radar to pick it). What the USN has realized is that the urge to break down the CAW into offensive and defensive platforms ultimately dilutes its offensive punch and as such they would rather coordinate between the SM6, organic and outside resources to provide the level of penetration from the traditional "bad guys" so that their assets can concentrate on going out and "clearing out" the A2AD on land and at sea. Here the USAF also comes in since it is responsible for providing the top cover, hence the strategic placements of Bombers and fighters in the Pacific. It would be the B-1's with the LRASM's that would take care of ships and the entire USAF along with F-22s that would open the door for the carriers to get closer. Furthermore, they have decided to up the Growler presence from 3 to 5 and eventually to 7. Couple that with land based growlers which no doubt could operate given the overall fleet size, they would want to create pockets of high agile jamming (Gallium Nitride jammers covering all freq. range with 180KW of total power per aircraft) since the majority of PLAN weapons do operate in the EM domain. In addition, the entire F-35 fleet can potentially perform EW duties be it not stand off with the sort of the blanket power the Growler can generate. So Its pretty much a known thing that for the only way for a carrier to be survivable beyond a certain level is to have a higher "offensive" capability, but there is a capability demand for the SM2, and SM6 while the ESSM is your bulk go to weapon obviously. AEGIS ships are also tasked with ABM both strategic and theater.

The need to defend against saturation is something that the USN places a very high priority on given their investments in DEW, and EMRG. The former are already deployed in the Middle East on the USS Ponce and have a clear pathway through which the ONR will develop them into a system that can tackle a much wider range of threats (not just small crafts and UAV's). Lasers onboard aircraft have shot down Ballistic Missiles years ago, and its just a matter of time before they manage to pack them in, and increase the range of weapons the lasers can shoot down from ships. As of this moment, the JHSV is being fitted with an Electro Magnetic Rail Gun prototype that would go out to sea next year for trials. That would be the ultimate weapon for missiles given the cost and supply.

http://defensetech.org/2013/01/18/navy- ... e-defense/
http://www.boeing.com/advertising/bma/m ... es_01.html

[JTull]

Navy gets 6th maritime patrol plane, likely to order four more

[Cosmo_R]

Navy gets 6th maritime patrol plane, likely to order four more

On time, on budget. Take the 4 options and and order 10 more.

[JTull]

Unpublicised outcome of recent DAC is the award of Advanced Towed Array Sonar contract. Fantastic news!

[Philip]

JT,excellent news.Filling a major gap in capability.

The P-8s ,8+4 extra will not be enough for the expanded role of the IN.It also has 8 TU-142 LRMP Bears,which as long as there is life in them have massive capability in unmatched range and endurance and can be used for strike purposes equipped with LR stand-off missiles like Nirbhay and BMos.The Russians are still using the aircraft as strat. bombers testing NATO defences in ample measure. We also have 5 IL-38SDs,upgraded recently,with a newer "Novella" upgrade being done for 24+ Russian IL-38s (details and performance earlier posted) . A few more Il-38s would be very handy in the "low and slow" ASW role,something that isn't poss, with high-flying P-8s. There is also the requirement for medium sized MPA aircraft for both IN and CG.The planned acquisition of 12+ amphibs from Japan hasn't yet materialised,but when it is,the IN and CG should have with the planned acquisitions a very formidable airborne ASW/maritime force needed for the IOR abd Indo-China Sea,operating out of Vietnamese bases. Eqpt. ,sensors and weaponry could be standardised amongst the platforms.

[SNaik]

Sindhukirti has been launched. Unfortunately, to get the details of the prolonged repair/upgrade, you'll have to Googletranslate (tm), Zvezdochka blog is in Russian only.
http://zvezdochka-ru.livejournal.com/204225.html#cutid1

[member_28108]

Sindhukirti has been launched. Unfortunately, to get the details of the prolonged repair/upgrade, you'll have to Googletranslate (tm), Zvezdochka blog is in Russian only.
http://zvezdochka-ru.livejournal.com/204225.html#cutid1

via Google translate
Indian diesel-electric submarine "Sindukirti" launched in India
The multi-year saga of repair and modernization of diesel-electric submarines "Sindukirti 'in Visakhapatnam, India was an important event - the ship was launched. Serious participation in the preparation of the descent took a group of Russian experts, including representatives of "Sprockets".

Before launching
In early November, a group of factory workers returned to Severodvinsk, and to replace them went to another team. According to Deputy Chief of 7 Mikhail Blinov, the past trip was different special tensions, not only in the working points.
Our compatriots had to witness the devastating hurricanes that swept over Visakhapatnam on October 12, paralyzing life in the city and the shipyard where our countrymen were involved.
- Due to the fact that the city's infrastructure was destroyed, a huge city remained without electricity, as well as a shipyard. As a result, our work has been disrupted for a week. But we must pay tribute to the leadership «Hindustan Shipyard Ltd.» - in the shortest possible time was provided back-up electricity supply line, and work resumed on the order, - said Mikhail Blinov.
Another misfortune for group travelers became malaria, had never bothered. This time she did not remain indifferent to the "guests" - a group of many sick, and four of the returnees dolechivatsya already here. Now a dangerous disease are seriously - take all the necessary preparations for the prevention.
Haste and close attention to the course of the repair ship, according responsible for providing a conclusion ordering felt throughout a three-month trip. Even though forced because of Hurricane simple, the Indian military is not rescheduled launching the boat. However, maintaining the title of Russian shipbuilder, our specialists have coped with their work without disrupting the schedule obgovorёnnye general terms.
All October had to work overtime. At the same time from a group of one hundred two people (that is how much the Russians are involved in the repair of "Sindukirti") more than thirty again brought on board instead of resting in their spare time. To their credit - all sympathetic to the problem and in a very short time completed all activities on repair and preparation of order to be launched.
A lot had to do. Closed-built huge amount of documents. Before descending order over water installation and commissioning of equipment complexes "Pyrite-M" and "Palladium-M", responsible for the operation of the steering group and the ship's systems. Particularly helped in setting up a mechanic shop 10 AN Elenskiy. Presented to the customer mounted navigation system "Appassionata-EKM.1" and combat system AIUS "Lama-CME" modernized missile complex «Club-S» - the main weapon of the boat, completed work on a range of mine-torpedo weapons. I would also like to acknowledge the work of specialists "Arctic", namely VA Kulebakin SA Drochneva, RA Schilina, RF Patrakeeva, AS Borovik, AV Kruglov, AS Ershov, RG Smirnov.
Such large amounts reserved for the Russians, due to the fact that the Indians do not have much experience in setting up and repair complexes Russian submarines. Hence the numerous failures in the course of work, delays with various activities for repair and modernization. Sometimes they numbered two months, significantly delayed the general course of recovery "Sindukirti."
- "Thanks" this attitude is the same setting hydraulics and electrics complex "Palladium-M" cost us two weeks of hard work instead of the one and a half months at a normal pace, - says Mikhail Blinov.
On the eve of entering the open water in a three-shift operation had to contend with another difficulty - pripilovkoy tracks torpedo - stricter requirements to comply with the geometry forced to work hard for two weeks (RY showed their skills Perminin, Shuleva AA, VV SEMYANNIKOV from the shop 10).
Plus delays were added numerous consultations of our designers and engineers who are assisted by their Indian colleagues work.
Ahead of the ship's mooring stage trials that Russian experts "Sprockets", "Arctic" and "Aurora" hold together with the project manager Andrei Frolov. Andrew F. was at the forefront of repair "Sindukirti" and to this day continues started more than eight years ago the matter. Problematic issues to be addressed in Russia are controlled by the head of the department Andrei Nevenkina 7, so that in the distant Indian professionals do not feel neglected and deprived.
It should be noted that during this time the approach of the Indian side to repair the ship has changed for the better. They increased the number and level of experts on the order, the military almost daily appealed for help to the Russians up to solve some problems of its own.
The reluctance of the customer to postpone the execution of works at Russian breakdowns own terms inconvenience, but the years of experience that have gained shipbuilders in the repair of five Indian orders, undoubtedly helped.
- This is especially felt the last month and a half trip, - says Mikhail Blinov - Contact us became closer, canceled checks weekly, they were replaced daily, allowing more quickly to solve all problems.
Relax is not necessary - in the plans of the Indian side to finish mooring trials by the end of March 2015, so ahead of the Russians a few months of hard work in the hot sun of India.
Based on materials from the publication "North week."
TAGS: Navy, sprocket, India Feel factory !, Severodvinsk, Sindukirti

[Kartik]

good news about the INS Sindhukirti. After the sinking of INS Sindhurakshak, this was just the boost the IN needed for submarine force levels to be where they were.

[Philip]

And for sceptics and doubters,the enormous assistance provided by the Russian tech experts. I feel that there is enormous scope for pvt. players to take up MRO of Russian origin systems since the DPSUs are either overloaded with work,or unable to deliver. Firms like L&T,etc.,which are providing substantial input into the N-sub programme should be given more work and opportunities in the IN's sub progrmmes.

[brar_w]

JT,excellent news.Filling a major gap in capability.

A few more Il-38s would be very handy in the "low and slow" ASW role,something that isn't poss, with high-flying P-8s.

Although i fully endorse your idea of upgrading the existing crafts as long as they have life left in them,, the P-8 does not constrain itself with the sensor and the quality of the aircraft it is replacing that forced it to do a certain mission a certain way. Low and slow may have been impossible to prevent, but the P-8 has the sensors now to do a lot of the stuff from altitude and as a result cover much more area on a mission then if it were flying low and slow. It is planning to cover the lower altitude requirement through unmanned sensors, while this is possible with the P-8, it is impossible to do the reverse (Use a P-3 and develop a High altitude UAV to do the top cover) unless one invests in the Triton which is more expensive then a P-3 and only covers the BAMS portion and not the anti-sub portion of the mission.

P-8 reliability offers boost to USN's ASW mission without MAD

The US Navy (USN) is pleased with the Boeing P-8A Poseidon multi-mission anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft's efficiency both in its acquisition price and its early operational performance, the navy's program executive officer (PEO) for air ASW, assault, and special mission programmes, told IHS Jane's on 27 October.

"The thing that P-8 really brings to the table right now is that it gets you on station faster [than legacy aircraft] and allows you to stay on station for longer periods of time, which gives us broader coverage for ASW missions," said Rear Admiral Cindy Jaynes. "The mission systems are much improved, and the reliability of the aircraft has been just incredible. When they go out, they're not coming to base for any issues. They're able to go out there and stay out there."

She added that the P-8's avionics systems, for example, have demonstrated a "98-99%" reliability rate in early deployments.

In July 2014 Patrol Squadron (VP)-16 concluded the Poseidon's first operational deployment when its eight aircraft returned from Kadena Air Base in Japan after finishing 600 sorties and 3,500 flight hours.

Rear Adm Jaynes said that deployment confirmed the USN's decision not to add a magnetic anomaly detector (MAD) to the P-8 in later increments. MAD is "pretty much off the table", she said. "Having the VP-16 deployment under our belt, we asked the skipper if there was a point when he wished he had a MAD boom, and he said throughout the whole deployment that he never heard anyone say, 'If I only had a MAD.'"

The rear admiral noted that the P-8's advanced sensors eliminate the need for a MAD. "The reason the MAD was on the [Lockheed] P-3 [Orion], I think, has been overcome by sensors that are on the P-8," she said. The P-8's sensor suite "provides better situational awareness".

The P-8's addition to the USN's ASW arsenal is "really not changing" the navy's operational concepts, said Rear Adm Jaynes. However, because "its sensors are so much more sensitive, you can find your target a lot faster". The navy is, therefore, fielding five aircraft per squadron instead of the nine P-3s per squadron previously.

In the meantime, Rear Adm Jaynes continues to look for ways to drive even more cost out of the programme. "The P-8 has been a great example for us on efficiency," she said. Managers "have really reduced the unit cost … over the years".

For example, the navy has implemented a payment schedule that maximises annually appropriated production funds by making up-front, one-time "accelerated" payments to Boeing in lieu of traditional progress payments. "If we were able to go on contract 1 October, we actually get a 12-month discount on the unit cost of the aircraft," the rear admiral explained. Over the past three years, the use of accelerated payments has saved approximately USD75 million across the 40 aircraft ordered, according to the navy.

The networked approach to the system allows a user to add things such as this to the system and really extend the sensor reach while controlling the "bigger picture" from greater than 15 K feet. I know the IN has MAD installed, but once fielded such systems would surely be a valuable add on especially when the P-8 is acting as a strategic asset for the mission and these little things tracking threats down low.

Video:

http://bcove.me/ljl1zw8o

In fact, a Request has already been issued for such an "accessory" (couldn't find another word for it) by the pentagon.

Low Magnetic Signature Expendable Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) for Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW)

http://www.navysbir.com/n14_1/N141-014.htm

[pankajs]

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 024_1.html

Sonar contract provides major boost to navy

On November 12, without announcement or fanfare, the ministry of defence (MoD) signed a small contract with enormous implications for itself and the Indian Navy. This formalised the purchase of six advanced towed array sonar (ATAS) systems from Atlas Elektronik, the German naval systems giant, for just under Euro 40 million (Rs 306 crore).

These ATAS systems will equip three Talwar-class frigates (INS Talwar, Trishul and Tabar) and three Delhi-class destroyers (INS Delhi, Mumbai and Mysore), allowing them to detect enemy submarines in the Arabian Sea, where the warm, shallow waters confound conventional hull-mounted sonars.

...
So important is the ATAS contract that the MoD abandoned even the pretence of indigenisation. Atlas Elektronik will build all six ATAS systems in Germany, and has been exempted from offsets.

...
With this contract, Atlas Elektronik has taken pole position for supplying the navy a range of high-end sonars. Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL), which is required to build ten ATAS with foreign partnership, has been encouraged by the navy to tie up with Atlas so that sonar equipment is standardised across warships.

BEL is learnt to be in discussions with Atlas for building ten ATAS for three Shivalik-class frigates (INS Shivalik, Satpura and Sahyadri), three Kolkata-class destroyers (Kolkata, Kochi and Chennai), and four Kamorta-class anti-submarine corvettes (INS Kamorta, Kadmatt, Kiltan and Kavaratti).

That leaves 20 warships that will remain in naval service for some years. These include: three aircraft carriers (INS Vikramaditya, Vikrant and Vishal); three Brahmaputra class frigates (INS Brahmaputra, Betwa and Beas); three Talwar-class follow-on frigates (INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand); four Project 15-B destroyers (unnamed, under construction); and seven Project 17-A frigates (unnamed, contract being negotiated).

Given its first-mover advantage, the infrastructure and partnerships it will build and its already demonstrated price advantage, Atlas hopes to supply sonar systems for these and for other smaller surface warships and submarines. In April, the MoD tendered for 16 Anti Submarine Warfare Shallow Water Craft (ASWC), which need sophisticated sonar with electronically controlled beams.

Atlas Elektronik sources say they are eager to establish a joint venture company with either BEL or an Indian private sector company to build sonars in India. That would grant majority ownership of 51 per cent to the Indian entity.

[Austin]

In one year, the Indian Navy’s flagship aircraft carrier spent a total of 220 days at sea and its aircraft have carried out 240 takeoffs and landings

INS Vikramaditya completes a year with the Indian Navy

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/11/25 ... 39921.html

According to Sergey Marichev, Deputy Director General of the defense shipyard Sevmash, where the carrier has been substantially re-born, the Indian Navy has been using the ship intensively for the entire year. It spent more than 220 days at sea. “And that's more than the aircraft carrier spent in the Northern Seas on factory tests in two years,” the Severodvinsk shipyard said in a press note.

[Austin]

Navy Finds 7 Officers 'Culpable' in INS Sindhuratna Fire That Killed 2

An inquiry into the fire on board INS Sindhuratna - the Russian built Kilo Class submarine - in February this year has "found seven officers culpable of various acts of omissions and commissions," Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar told Parliament today.

This includes a Commodore rank officer - equivalent to a Brigadier in the Army.

Two Navy officers were killed in the fire and some others were hospitalised.

Mr Parrikar said in his written reply in the Rajya Sabha that the report of a Board of Inquiry set up to investigate the accident has been submitted to the Naval headquarters and disciplinary action has been initiated at the Western naval Command headquarters against the seven officers.

The Sindhuratna fire on February 26 came after a series of mishaps involving the Navy's assets and the then Navy Chief Admiral DK Joshi had resigned soon after owning moral responsibility.

Months earlier, another submarine, the INS Sindhurakshak, exploded and sank killing 18 crewmen on board. Mr Parrikar said today that a Board of Inquiry report into that tragedy has also been submitted, but an examination of it is yet to completed.

An early investigation into the Sindhuratna fire had established that the fire was caused due to problems in the cables of the vessel.

Earlier, speaking to NDTV, Navy chief Admiral Robin Dhowan had indicated that standard operating procedures were not followed leading to explosion on board INS Sindhurakshak, in which 18 sailors had died.

[alexis]

The atlas order is welcome but why stop at 6? We should have atleast equipped all 6 Talwar class, P16, P17,P15 and P15A at one go. Balance under construction ships can be fitted with Indian JV products which will take atleast 4-5 years to arrive.

[Aditya G]

Cant wait to see some intense carrier op pics from VKD. We missed a chance when Modi visited due to unfavourable weather.

In one year, the Indian Navy’s flagship aircraft carrier spent a total of 220 days at sea and its aircraft have carried out 240 takeoffs and landings

INS Vikramaditya completes a year with the Indian Navy

http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/11/25 ... 39921.html

According to Sergey Marichev, Deputy Director General of the defense shipyard Sevmash, where the carrier has been substantially re-born, the Indian Navy has been using the ship intensively for the entire year. It spent more than 220 days at sea. “And that's more than the aircraft carrier spent in the Northern Seas on factory tests in two years,” the Severodvinsk shipyard said in a press note.

[vina]

the tarantuls look packed from outside but are actually surprisingly roomy inside...i have been inside a former east german tarantul. the ship is quite wide for its short length.

That would have to be because of the speeds the Tarantuls would be required to reach. So it cannot be a pure displacement hull, but rather a planing or a semi planing hull.

In Inglees, what it means is that for a planing hull, at higher speeds a bulk of the weight of the boat is supported by dynamic lift (think of the boat itself being on water skis) , rather than Archimedes principle /buoyancy. What this does is reduce the wetted surface area and increases speed.

This goes back a looong time. For e.g. in WW-II, the German E class was a pure displacement hull, while the British and American motor torpedo boats (Vosper MTBs and American PT boats) used planing hulls. The German E boats had THREE high powered Diamler engines, while the Brit and American boats, had much less powerful twin engines, but still could reach a higher speed than the German E boats.

The cost ? As all things in life come with a cost, in even slightly rough weather, the planing hulls will simply not work, while a deep displacement hull like the German E boats will have superb sea keeping. All those pictures of boats flying into the air and landing on their backs in high speed boat races is an example of that. And oh, also manoeuvrability will be less. Those boats are for high straight line speeds in good to fair weather. Think of them as a high speed pleasure boat carrying weapons , instead of bikinied PYTs sunning on the decks.

[Singha]

the E-boats per wiki specs were noticeably longer and heavier as well, trading a 8 knot speed advantage for better seakeeping and endurance probably.

[vina]

the E-boats per wiki specs were noticeably longer and heavier as well, trading a 8 knot speed advantage for better seakeeping and endurance probably.

Yeah true. But if you want a true greased lightning high speed on water, the best way is to go hydrofoil and lift the hull entirely off the water, with just the dynamic lift from those teeny lil wings under water supporting the weight of the boat.

Remember, water is approx 1000 times denser than air, so the wing area of a hydro foil boat of x tons will be approx. 1000 times smaller than an airplane of x tons flying , all else being same (obviously the plane will be flying faster), but you get the idea.

[member_26622]

^ Also once a boat is lifted off water, its stability increases - making a smaller boat more 'livable'. Wondering about endurance but expect to have more 'time on station' as once off water, it has less friction to overcome also.

A small, high endurance package filled up with sonars (hull, depth and trailing) and anti sub missile/torpedoes will be great. Also, the weapons package needs to be 'just' enough to take out a sub or two - as subs are solitary hunters, plus back up from land based helicopters is there.

[Kartik]

The atlas order is welcome but why stop at 6? We should have atleast equipped all 6 Talwar class, P16, P17,P15 and P15A at one go. Balance under construction ships can be fitted with Indian JV products which will take atleast 4-5 years to arrive.

they haven't stopped at 6. the rest will be assembled in India and should equip most of the fleet.

Indian MoD signs up for Atlas ACTAS

..
The deal also includes Atlas transferring technology to state-owned Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) in Bangalore to build 10 additional ATAS/ACTAS systems for other IN warships, many of which are under construction.

These would be supplemented by another 20 sonar systems to equip other IN platforms, including the aircraft carrier Vikrant, which is scheduled for commissioning in 2018. Industry sources said other than BEL, Atlas is also considering joint ventures with local private sector manufacturers to build the sonars
..

[Philip]

Chinese research sub to explore the IOR for obvious reasons. The pity is that we do not have any research sub equivalent to that of China despite having such a large maritime domain to sanitise. The sub will be most useful in mapping the underwater regions of the IOR for use by its nuclear subs in the future.

Chinese Submarine Jiaolong Sets Off for Indian Ocean Mission

By Lord Marin On November 25, 2014
www.chinadaily.com.cn

The Xiangyanghong-9 carrier hoisting the Jiaolong submersible during its 2013 mission.
President Xi Hails Retired Officials as Valuable Assets for the Country
The Chinese deep-sea manned submarine was ferried by the Xiangyanghong-9 carrier.

The submersible will be on a four-month scientific voyage mission. According to National Deep Sea Center director Yu Hongjun, the sub will be diving 20 times to study biological diversity, genetic resources, polymetallic sulfides and hydrothermal microbes. Yu is also the chief commander for the Chinese sub's mission.

It will be Jiaolong's longest and furthest mission with regard to duration and distance.

Jiaolong, which is a mythical dragon's name, dived into the Mariana Trench in June 2012, reaching its depth record of 7,062 meters.

The scientific voyage involves 13 scientists. Maintenance staff for the sub has been reduced due to new advancements in the onboard technology. The scientists were trained rigorously to pilot the sub back to base when emergency situations arise.

China's second batch of aquanaut military trainees recruited in 2013 will be co-piloting the submersible; the dive mission will be the cadets' first, said Yu.

However, the mission is only a trial for the Chinese sub as it is still being tested for regular operation. Jiaolong's first trial voyage started from June up to September in 2013, which was just the first part of its five-year trial period before starting regular operations.

During the 2013 mission, the Chinese sub accomplished 21 dives exploring the Pacific's northwest and northeast as well as the South China Sea.

The Chinese sub also conducted a scientific voyage for 52 days in the Pacific Ocean's northwest earlier this year to research deep-sea life forms and cobalt-rich crusts.

Read more: http://en.yibada.com/news/chinese-subma ... z3KGlZGUvN

[kit]

On the black budget for the X37B " "I think there's a good reason to keep [the budget] as quiet as we possibly can," Shelton told me. "If you reveal budgets, you sometimes reveal the capabilities, the amount of technology inserted into a program. It's a good, strategic national security decision."" ...is it not a good idea to keep budgets of programs like the Satellite tracking ships secret .. like that for the nuclear subs

[kit]

The one thing Indian intelligence should pick up is the nature of agreement between Sri Lanka and China on the use of Trincomalee harbor ..even if India spreads its largesse it s quite likely that SL will honor its agreement with China as it looks almost certain that some people in SL (ruling party and the president included) are getting a lot than meets the eye ..there are some secret clauses to that agreement for sure.India should not be spending money on Sri Lanka if it is indeed the case, rather a stick would be more appropriate..and to be inserted in the right way ..the Sethusamudram project looks like a good idea now ...

[JTull]

Let's wait and see how the presidential elections pan out in SL. There are serious charges of nepotism against Rajapakse as his family controls everything.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-2 ... dency.html

"Rajapaksa holds Sri Lanka’s defense and finance portfolios as well as ports, highways and aviation. His brother Basil Rajapaksa is minister of economic development. Another sibling, Gotabaya Rajapaksa, is the defense secretary, and the president’s son Namal is a member of parliament."

He defeated LTTE but faced India and UN's ire on human rights record. China saw an opportunity...

Admins, apologies for digressing.

[Austin]

Most Detailed Official List Of Indian Navy Accidents In Last 3 Years

[Austin]

The Akula we have has similar escape chamber integrated with Sail

http://www.janes.com/article/46370/russ ... pe-chamber

[Philip]

OZ's first multi-role ski-jump flat-top to be commissioned.The vessel,based upon the Juan Carlos amphib design is the ideal size for the N's proposed fleet of 4 amphibs.They could serve as ASW/air defence and amphib air support vessels too if equipped with STOVL aircraft,in fact the size of deck would also allow STOBAR ops of the NLCA/Gripen.26

Video clip in the link.
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014 ... join-fleet

Australia’s largest-ever Navy ship set to join fleet

SBS has been given a sneak peak at Australia’s largest-ever Navy ship, to be commissioned as the new HMAS Canberra on Friday.
By Gary Cox
26 NOV 2014 - 7:16 PM UPDATED 26 NOV 2014 - 9:40 PM

Australia’s largest-ever Navy ship, HMAS Canberra, is set to become party of the Australian naval fleet.

The 230 meter-long amphibious landing ship has a price tag of $1.5 billion and is touted by Navy as a game-changing war ship with a humanitarian heart.

“It has a significant capacity to provide humanitarian relief,” Captain Jonathan Satleir told SBS.

“It can do a lot. At this stage of the game we are driving towards is to be able to operate all four of our landing craft and utilise the full capacity that is sitting here on the flight deck.”

Known as a Landing Helicopter Dock, or LHD, the vessel’s hull was built in Spain and was designed for shallow waters.

The Navy said the ship was expected to be able to land a force of more than 2000 personnel by helicopter and water craft, along with all their weapons.

It represented a major escalation in the amphibious lift capability of the Australian Defence Force.

"At this stage of the game we are driving towards is to be able to operate all four of our landing craft and utilise the full capacity that is sitting here on the flight deck."
The 27,000 ton war machine had a crew of 400 but could carry and sustain 1100 fully equipped infantry troops.

It would also do the Army and the Navy’s heavy lifting, able to carry 110 trucks and armoured vehicles up to and including Abrams main battle tanks.

It could house 18 helicopters and up to eight medium lift choppers would be able to operate simultaneously from six landing points on the flight deck.

It would be officially put into service with the Navy and handed over to Navy Chief Vice-Admiral Tim Barrett at Garden Island in Sydney on Friday.

Her sister ship, the Adelaide, was still under construction at the BAE Systems Dockyard at Williamstown, Victoria and was due to be commissioned in 2016.

[Viv S]

They could serve as ASW/air defence and amphib air support vessels too if equipped with STOVL aircraft,in fact the size of deck would also allow STOBAR ops of the NLCA/Gripen.26

You'd have to put in a ski-jump and that would limit the deck area available for regular (i.e non-fighter) flight operations. If the capability to double up as a carrier is needed, STOVL's still the only option.

[Philip]

The ski-jump is already installed on the OZ vessels,ck the pic in the link.They plan to use F-35Bs later on.US P-8s do not come with MAD as on the IN's aircraft,but are contemplating such an addition.

More on the P-8s capabilities.It would interesting to compare available stats with those I posted earlier here on the IL-38Ns performance stats.
http://www.businessinsider.in/How-The-N ... 303006.cms

How The Navy's Latest Anti-Submarine Aircraft Sees Under The Waves
PIERRE BIENAIMÉ1NOV 28, 2014, 05.02 AM

Poseidon P-8A Boeing Graphic
Boeing's P-8A Poseidon has been a part of the US Navy for a year this month. The converted airliner brings the latest in anti-submarine capabilities, reaching greater altitude and speed than its predecessor (without the nausea factor for its crew).

At the front of the plane, the P-8A sports an exclusive radar system supplied by Raytheon. In certain detection modes, the 408-pound radar system has a range of 200 nautical miles and provides ultra-high resolution images. A shorter-ranged setting offers enough precision to pick up on "small targets with limited exposure time in high sea states," according to Raytheon's fact sheet on the product.

The P8-A also has a refueling receptacle for missions that go beyond the 20 hours it can fly on a full tank.

The back half is dedicated to the storing and launching of sonar buoys from on high, which allow members of the nine-person crew to measure the sound propagation around these underwater units - just as a submarine or warship typically would. The P-8A can send out more than 100 of these yard-long "sonobuoys" in a single flight.

And in the middle, "any operator can control and monitor any sensor from their station," a Boeing representative wrote in an email to Business Insider. Each of five operator stations is equipped with two 24-inch high resolution displays, which were designed to work seamlessly with Raytheon's radar system.

P 8A PoseidonUnlike some vehicles contracted from private manufacturers, the P-8A's militaristic features "are incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly" rather than being tacked on in post-production. It's built from the fuselage of Boeing's 737-800 and the wings of its 737-900.

The US Navy currently owns 13 units of the P-8A, with plans to eventually expand its stable to 117.

Already the plane has played a role in the South Asian theater, where China's confidence in laying claim to disputed islands and waters meets a US presence meant to strengthen ties with nervous allies.

In August a Chinese fighter jet performed several passes - and even a barrel roll - near and above an American P-8A flying some 135 miles east of Hainan, home to a Chinese submarine base. At the time, China said the pilot had kept a safe distance, while the US described the event as dangerous.

In talks that raised the incident earlier this month, China and the US agreed to new guidelines aimed at avoiding further friction, including notification requirements and rules of behavior for future encounters.

The P-8A doesn't just make spy flights; in addition to its primary function as an intelligence-gathering asset, it can carry various payloads: cruise missiles, naval mines, and even torpedoes.

Boeing has also created the P-8I, a variant on the Poseidon designed for foreign markets. The Indian Navy has purchased eight of these, the last two of which will be delivered next year, to replace their Russian Tu-142 aircraft.

Screen Shot 2014 11 27 at 6.26.28 PM

According to Boeing, the company is fielding interest from other countries as well; Australia has moved to acquire eight of its own.

India's P-8I, per their contract request, is equipped with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) eschewed by the plane's parent version.

The tailpiece picks up on variances in the Earth's magnetic field created by large metal objects (like submarines).

India's own group of planes may go towards monitoring the same rival its American cousin does. "Indian strategists speak in alarmist, geopolitical terms about a Chinese footprint in India's sphere of influence and a possible encirclement," the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute wrote in March. "They call for a speedy and forceful investment in a blue water navy." For that, Boeing's latest surveillance aircraft could make a strong complement.

PS:DARPA is developing an unmanned sub that can track SSKs for 60 days that wil be v. difficult to detect being made of composite materials.It will mainly track enemy subs as an UW sensor,sending data to "shooters".

[JTull]

They could serve as ASW/air defence and amphib air support vessels too if equipped with STOVL aircraft,in fact the size of deck would also allow STOBAR ops of the NLCA/Gripen.26

You'd have to put in a ski-jump and that would limit the deck area available for regular (i.e non-fighter) flight operations. If the capability to double up as a carrier is needed, STOVL's still the only option.

There seems to be a ski-jump already there as per the images in earlier link!

[Viv S]

The ski-jump is already installed on the OZ vessels,ck the pic in the link.They plan to use F-35Bs later on.

You're right. I had it mixed with the Mistral. The N-Tejas/MiG-29K ops could be possible if an LHD based on the Juan Carlos is picked. On the other hand, weighing in at 26,000 tons it'll also be the most expensive option both in terms of acquisition and operation.

Still worth it I think, but it'll be hard to get it through the MoD's lowest bidder acquisition model.

[Philip]

Yes,though I doubt that MIG-29Ks will be able to operate successfully from it.Saab had a concept for a Sea Gripen for the Viraat! This is why the IN must acquire an amphib that has fixed wing air capabilites too which could be force multipliers in any crisis.The IN's strike/air capable flat tops could dramatically increase from 3 to 7 ,as crises develop unexpectedly,as at Kargil when the Viraat was in refit. At that time I proposed using a few of the IN's Sea Harriers in the mountains as an experiment ,better targeting capability with hovering,as in the initial stages the IAF had yet to get its act together which was achieved later on.The IN would've been willing had they been asked. At any given time,at least 1-2 amphibs ,plus one of the carriers will be in refit/maintenance and unavailable to answer the immediate call of duty. Naval air power will be decisive as has been shown from WW2,both in force projection as well as anti-sub warfare in concert with the UW assets.

[brar_w]

Operating a Non STOVL aircraft from a ship without a CAT and that is about 20% shorter in length then your carrier would seriously impact the range/payload, cause a tanker rush for any reasonable range performance and reduce the bring back ability for a Non STOVL fighter. The displacement and the fact that such ships are designed for other purposes would put a severe strain on logistics and getting stuff on. Since most of the stuff would be placed before hand (as opposed to flying it in) the space down below would impact other missions or severely limit the number of aircraft that ca be placed. All of this put together would severely impact the sortie generation rates. There is a reason why The RAAF are considering STOVL, and why the USMC will only use STOVL rather then develop a lighter F-16 instead. Your tempo goes down the toilet. Not only would running an AW from such carriers be not optimal it would also cost more to design such a ship for such a role rather than simply building smaller 25-30K proper carrier designed around the Carrier Air Wing. The tempo alone would pay for the added cost and time over the decades such carriers are likely to be in service. The Ambhibs perform the swing mission with the aircraft, operating from them to support troops downrange or provide modest top cover at short-medium ranges and to do it for a small amount of time before they move inland. This is how Japan or the RAN would use their ships and STOVL aircraft if they ever decide to go in for such a switch (I have my doubts).

[brar_w]

The ski-jump is already installed on the OZ vessels,ck the pic in the link.They plan to use F-35Bs later on.US P-8s do not come with MAD as on the IN's aircraft,but are contemplating such an addition.

More on the P-8s capabilities.It would interesting to compare available stats with those I posted earlier here on the IL-38Ns performance stats.
http://www.businessinsider.in/How-The-N ... 303006.cms

How The Navy's Latest Anti-Submarine Aircraft Sees Under The Waves
PIERRE BIENAIMÉ1NOV 28, 2014, 05.02 AM

Poseidon P-8A Boeing Graphic
Boeing's P-8A Poseidon has been a part of the US Navy for a year this month. The converted airliner brings the latest in anti-submarine capabilities, reaching greater altitude and speed than its predecessor (without the nausea factor for its crew).

At the front of the plane, the P-8A sports an exclusive radar system supplied by Raytheon. In certain detection modes, the 408-pound radar system has a range of 200 nautical miles and provides ultra-high resolution images. A shorter-ranged setting offers enough precision to pick up on "small targets with limited exposure time in high sea states," according to Raytheon's fact sheet on the product.

The P8-A also has a refueling receptacle for missions that go beyond the 20 hours it can fly on a full tank.

The back half is dedicated to the storing and launching of sonar buoys from on high, which allow members of the nine-person crew to measure the sound propagation around these underwater units - just as a submarine or warship typically would. The P-8A can send out more than 100 of these yard-long "sonobuoys" in a single flight.

And in the middle, "any operator can control and monitor any sensor from their station," a Boeing representative wrote in an email to Business Insider. Each of five operator stations is equipped with two 24-inch high resolution displays, which were designed to work seamlessly with Raytheon's radar system.

P 8A PoseidonUnlike some vehicles contracted from private manufacturers, the P-8A's militaristic features "are incorporated in sequence during fabrication and assembly" rather than being tacked on in post-production. It's built from the fuselage of Boeing's 737-800 and the wings of its 737-900.

The US Navy currently owns 13 units of the P-8A, with plans to eventually expand its stable to 117.

Already the plane has played a role in the South Asian theater, where China's confidence in laying claim to disputed islands and waters meets a US presence meant to strengthen ties with nervous allies.

In August a Chinese fighter jet performed several passes - and even a barrel roll - near and above an American P-8A flying some 135 miles east of Hainan, home to a Chinese submarine base. At the time, China said the pilot had kept a safe distance, while the US described the event as dangerous.

In talks that raised the incident earlier this month, China and the US agreed to new guidelines aimed at avoiding further friction, including notification requirements and rules of behavior for future encounters.

The P-8A doesn't just make spy flights; in addition to its primary function as an intelligence-gathering asset, it can carry various payloads: cruise missiles, naval mines, and even torpedoes.

Boeing has also created the P-8I, a variant on the Poseidon designed for foreign markets. The Indian Navy has purchased eight of these, the last two of which will be delivered next year, to replace their Russian Tu-142 aircraft.

Screen Shot 2014 11 27 at 6.26.28 PM

According to Boeing, the company is fielding interest from other countries as well; Australia has moved to acquire eight of its own.

India's P-8I, per their contract request, is equipped with a Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD) eschewed by the plane's parent version.

The tailpiece picks up on variances in the Earth's magnetic field created by large metal objects (like submarines).

India's own group of planes may go towards monitoring the same rival its American cousin does. "Indian strategists speak in alarmist, geopolitical terms about a Chinese footprint in India's sphere of influence and a possible encirclement," the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute wrote in March. "They call for a speedy and forceful investment in a blue water navy." For that, Boeing's latest surveillance aircraft could make a strong complement.

PS:DARPA is developing an unmanned sub that can track SSKs for 60 days that wil be v. difficult to detect being made of composite materials.It will mainly track enemy subs as an UW sensor,sending data to "shooters".

Who is contemplating MAD, USN or RAN? If the former then they are definitely not. In fact I just posted an article citing various USN officers who said that the recent outing in Japan validated the decision not to go for a MAD. They are going with recoverable Unmanned option, that carry the MAD sensors as a UAV that be placed on a race track patter around areas of interest while the P-8 concentrates on the bigger picture. Secure data link and network, open architecture is already standard. The contracts for such a drone were recently sent out.

When talking about specs, do keep in mind that the P-8 is a strict SPIRAL development program with the first block version to have the capability at par with the most upgraded P-3's (par in terms of scope within each mission set enabled with I1, these sets are performed better on the P8 as per feedback, but the P-3 still has mission sets the P-8 does not at the moment perform - thats by design as the capability addition is gradually over time). The capability is improved through incremental patches that enhance the sensors already onboard or under some cases add sensors (such as the LSRS). At the moment they have Increment 1 out to the users, Increment 2 went into testing this year and would finish testing and be ready to go out to customers by 2016. Increment 3 would come a few years later, and it would have 100% networked integration with the MQ-4C Triton.

[Viv S]

Operating a Non STOVL aircraft from a ship without a CAT and that is about 20% shorter in length then your carrier would seriously impact the range/payload, cause a tanker rush for any reasonable range performance and reduce the bring back ability for a Non STOVL fighter. The displacement and the fact that such ships are designed for other purposes would put a severe strain on logistics and getting stuff on. Since most of the stuff would be placed before hand (as opposed to flying it in) the space down below would impact other missions or severely limit the number of aircraft that ca be placed.

Carrier capability is not being mooted as as the primary function of the ships in question. This is very much a makeshift arrangment we're considering as opposed to the USMC that will practically operate a small air force. In the event that no amphibious operations are foreseen, if the navy's serving carriers are already at full strength in terms of fighter capacity, and there are enough helicopters available for sub hunting, its worthwhile to have the option of loading an LHD up with an INAS Tejas squadron and augmenting the naval task force. Keep the aircraft lightly loaded and use them primarily for fleet air defence. An LHD may not be available configured for air operations at very short notice, but a build-up to a warlike situation would be more than enough time assuming the service had trained and prepared for such a task. A STOVL option would be far more capable of course, but if its not available, better a STOBAR fighter than nothing at all.

[brar_w]

Interesting idea, I seriously doubt anything like this would make sense from a logistics point of view but it would be interesting to run the numbers (which I do not have)

[Viv S]

Interesting idea, I seriously doubt anything like this would make sense from a logistics point of view but it would be interesting to run the numbers (which I do not have)

Logistically, why it should be any more challenging than preparing for operations from rough field forward bases? Something that the RAF, USMC and the SwAF routinely trained to do. If anything, it should be easier since the spares cache and support personnel will be located at a single base and the ship already equipped with a reservoir for aviation fuel.

[Bihanga]

Just now I visited to indian navy free static display of its warships on western naval base mumbai.

Simply it was an awesome feeling to get a chance on board INS Talwar stealth ship and INS Delhi destroyer. Many sisterstealth ships of talwar class can be seen on various piers, three kilo class and two foxtrot subs can also be seen upclose. Four Godavari class, virat carrier and two sister ships of delhi class destroyer also can be seen. If anyone happens to be in mumbai then please get a chance to see this battlegroup upclose.


But really aweful display of INS Sindhurakshak seems to have given bitter taste of ground reality of india's naval might, oh my godness that sub was put on to floating object where one can easily see its accident damage just below its tower with thick holes on both sides. People were asking question to present officers who seems little intrested to answer, they were just saying it is under repair.

[brar_w]

Interesting idea, I seriously doubt anything like this would make sense from a logistics point of view but it would be interesting to run the numbers (which I do not have)

Logistically, why it should be any more challenging than preparing for operations from rough field forward bases? Something that the RAF, USMC and the SwAF routinely trained to do. If anything, it should be easier since the spares cache and support personnel will be located at a single base and the ship already equipped with a reservoir for aviation fuel.

Getting there is not an issue, getting the supplies there for a moderate tempo of ops is however something that is hard even for the LHD's. Do you have supplies stored there for good? If so, then the ship would be carrying supplies and logistics even when not using them, and if not then how do you get all that stuff on a ship, and how do you keep your crews proficient on running, maintaining an air wing on a ship? How do you get a GE F404 on such a ship? How much equipment is required to change a GE F404, and how much space down below needs to be dedicated for it? What level depot do you want on your ship? How do you address heavy aircraft repair and what sort of capability for turn around times does one expect. All this has to be factored into the design, then factored in into the training and ultimately on how one deploys such a ship. These are just a handful of questions that require an analysis before one begins to define sortie generation rates for such a vessel/concept. Keep in mind on an LHD like ship we cannot measure the LOGISTICAL FOOTPRINT (like it was for the harrier, or it is for a forward deployed F-35B) in C-130 loads, or even V-22 loads as the USMC are doing (which carries a lot of stuff but still CANNOT carry the F-135).

All of this would also fundamentally alter the cost for these ships, both as stand alone designs (doing something no one else is) and to run these multiple missions which are rather contradictory to one another. Then comes the question of what Utility one gets by doing such a compromise where you are essentially restricting your fighters capability and leaving it too for a lightly armed, short range point defense mission given the constraints both in terms of launch and ship recovery. If you set up an intercept orbit using these constraints and draw out a sphere of influence for such a ship with such a fighter you wouldn't in my opinion get a very large circle given the TOS for the small/light weight fighters.

As a complement to a PROPER carrier "at time of need" or when its own AW is overwhelmed, it (superficially) looks like a very expensive idea that has a very limited return, of which a lot can be obtained by simply taking measures to up the sortie generation rate of the existing fighters, procure adequate tankers and provide long range tanker support to the existing carrier aircraft for a greater TOS, OR by designing future carriers to be bigger or incorporate things like EMALS that provide a big boost to the sortie generation rates ( Ford can do 160 sorties a day continuously for 30+ days and close to 200 sorties per day for about a week - thanks to EMALS and its electrical improvements). If you look at what the USMC is doing, or what the Japanese and Aussie think tanks are proposing, it isn't to create a MINI CARRIER to provide fleet defense for a carrier, a ship or anything. It is strictly to support the troops landing downrange and to move along with them. The USMC LHD's would be always operating under the umbrella provided for by the uSAF and USN so for them air to air is about being their at the right time to protect the skies over the marines. For Japan it is to get a fighter closer to conflict given the distances involved and shorter the response times. A lot of the advantage of these LHD style ships in the pacific is that they unlike the Nuclear carrier do not escalate a situation and can therefore be deployed to a region with relatively less risk of sparking something that is unintentional. The WASP's, AMERICAS are limited by how many F-135's they can carry onboard, and how much deck space they want to trade for the AW (not so much with the early built americas)..Ultimately they cannot scale up much from the current F-35's they carry which is between 6 and 8. They cannot begin to trade off F-35's for V-22's because that would strain other things and that kind of logistical change does not occur well out at sea. Remember, This is a 45,000 ton ship we are talking about, the affect on a 20-30K ton ship would be more significant.

In my opinion, any such Navy would be better off simply designing a MINI CARRIER to begin with and using it for a fewer number of missions but doing those missions rather well.

BTW, what sort of distances has the N-LCA been designed to take off from even with he F414?