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Lalmohan wrote:anyway - point being that for the majority of indians, the relationship has dramatically changed, and for the better...
if you look at the high end jobs in london (banking, law, consulting, medicine, etc.), around a third to half the graduate intake is uk-desi kids these days
I dont know LalMullah. On the whole, if you do want to head west, head all the way west to America. UK is so "yesterday" and out of date. Leave it to the Pakis. The Brits and the Pakis deserve each other.
Oh and also, Australia is another place where they should Pacquis would fit perfectly. Send more of 'em over down under.
i was specifically refering to uk-indians, as in uk-desis are better educated than the average and are disproportionately well represented in good jobs
Pratyush wrote:I will agree that they gave us a cclass of leaders who are completely divorced from the land they rule today.
The economy was destroyed. The local industries and handi crafts stifled. Who can forget the last British gift (Partition)
How long can we sing the same song? The British gave us a C Class set of leaders, but did'nt we have solid 50 years to improve the situation? If the British introduced systems of Indian Railways, Indian Army, the various Civil Service setup have been so pathetic and exploitory in nature, why did we (and the so called netas who sit and blame the British for practically everything and any thing) not change it? As some one already pointed it out, the British actually made a system which when they left fell into the hands of a set of Indian politicians whose sole aim was to continue to run the show. The politicians never had to invent any thing original, every thing to enforce the rule of (British made) laws were in place. From "God save the king" the change was to "God save the top-most chap in Gandhi/Nehru clan" .
Vina wrote: "...there is usually a "short list" of "acceptability" based on perceptions/prejudices/ whatever and whatever happens , those strong mental lines are not crossed."
Very short list indeed. It's called income potential.
Well the Brits got a $1BN Hawk deal for starters, let alone all the other MOUs.. Lage raho Munnabhai. Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
miliband is scrabbling to score domestic political points, he is looking at becoming the next labour leader... (that will keep them out of government for another decade)
India and the United Kingdom on Thursday agreed to further intensify their cooperation in the area of counter-terrorism, as they consider terrorism to be the single biggest threat to the region.
Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh and the visiting U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron today reviewed the regional security situation and developments in Afghanistan during a meet.
"There was agreement between us that today terrorism constitutes the single biggest threat to the region and to open and pluralistic societies like ours. We have agreed to further intensify our cooperation in the area of counter-terrorism," Prime Minister Manmohan Singh stated during a joint press meet.
Dr. Singh said that he has conveyed to the Prime Minister Cameron that the people of India look forward to the Commonwealth Games in Delhi which we hope will further strengthen the spirit of the Commonwealth.
"With Prime Minister Cameron's visit we have set in place a new momentum to drive our partnership forward. I have no doubt that this will be good for both our countries, and responds to the wishes and aspiration of both our peoples," Dr. Singh further stated.
India and the United Kingdom on Thursday agreed to set up an India-UK CEOs Forum and an India-UK Infrastructure Group besides working to double up bilateral trade in five years. Speaking during a joint press meet in the national capital, Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh said: "We have decided to constitute an India-UK CEOs Forum and an India-UK Infrastructure Group. We will work towards doubling our trade in five years. Building upon past experience, we have also agreed to launch a new phase of the UK-India Education and Research Initiative. We will intensify bilateral exchanges at all levels."
Describing India and the United Kingdom as "natural partners for shaping a better world", Dr. Singh said: " If we join hands together, we can make a meaningful contribution to addressing the challenges of poverty and development, reform of global institutions, terrorism and climate change."
Dr. Singh said that Prime Minister Cameron has a distinguished political career and he brings with him the finest qualities of leadership and a bold vision for Britain and a better and safer world.
Stating that Cameron's presence in India, so soon after his election victory in May this year, indicates the strength of the bonds that tie India and the United Kingdom, Dr. Singh said: "It also demonstrates the Prime Minister's strong personal commitment to take our partnership to an even higher level of understanding and purpose."
@ sanjaykumar, I had a 'look who's talking' moment reading milli-oris' comment.
Well the Brits got a $1BN Hawk deal for starters, let alone all the other MOUs.. Lage raho Munnabhai. Those who don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.
has nothing to do with cameron's visit. it makes the best sense in terms of economics and IAF requirements. let's not make passing judgements without being aware of the facts.
labour needs to reinvent itself, but when it does, it is unlikely to be pandering to the increasingly marginalised pakistani community
what are the chances of that when being led by honourary paki milli-oris ?
rahul, labour think tank analysts will now be doing intensive research into what lost them the election and how to win it back. ultimately they have to go back to their core constituents and their hopes and fears... and they dont think very highly of the rop'ers. labour can no longer take the brown vote as a given, and with cameron's bold moves, its going to get harder. ultimately there are more indians in the uk than paquis, the wild card being the bangladeshis
OK following comment put loudmaouth millipedi in its place
r Cameron may or may not be a loudmouth.
David Miliband certainly is:
• What else could explain this headline in the Daily Mail [1]: 'We would be better off with Cameron': Union chief brands Miliband a 'smug and arrogant s***'? That was Derek Simpson's view.
• What else could explain this headline in the Daily Mail [2]: 'Who the f*** are you to lecture me?': Russian minister's extraordinary rant at David Miliband? That was Sergei Lavrov's view.
• What else could explain this comment in the Daily Telegraph [3]: Why did he think it was tactful or clever to deliver a speech declaring there was no such thing "as the war on terror" in the Taj Hotel in Mumbai where dozens of innocent people were killed in a hail of machine gun bullets by terrorists? Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group linked with the murderous attack, welcomed our Foreign Secretary's "positive comments!" ... ?
• Or this one [4]: There is a rather significant impediment at the Foreign Office – the Foreign Secretary. Americans who have dealt with David Miliband confirm what many British journalists have long known. The Foreign Secretary is arrogant, given to lecturing veteran American diplomats on policies and regions of which he has only the most superficial knowledge?
Loudmouth? The accusation is a bit rich coming from David Miliband [5].
Dean Nelson in Telegraph wrote:What have they done to deserve a “special relationship”? You’d think the answer is a clear “duh, nothing!” from the comments made on my earlier blog post. They reveal a Britain caught in inside a billiard ball state, where globalisation might yet, if we fight to the last, be held at bay a while longer, and where Indians are lucky blighters to be here.
<snip>
She is right. I live in a country where growth is at nine per cent, but come from a country where it languishes at just one per cent. Where I live is full of hope and optimism, and British cabinet ministers pleading for more business, and where I’m from is full of fear.
Britain needs David Cameron’s mission to be successful, but for that to happen we need to be warmer in our attitudes towards the Indians who have given so much to Britain over the last three or four centuries. The truth is Indians have made us what we are today. In fact without India, Britain may never have come into being.
It’s largely forgotten in England and Wales that the 1707 Union with Scotland was sealed on the prospect of Scottish families gaining access to the East India Company, and specifically its trade in India.
<snip>
India gave Britain vast wealth through its supply of cheap raw materials to British mills, but it also helped to protect our freedom and independence in two world wars. One million Indians served and 60,000 died in the First World War, Pavan K. Varma reveals in his excellent book Becoming Indian, while two and a half million Indians fought for Britain in the Second World War.
<snip>
Britain’s colonial adventure in India changed the food we eat, the beer we drink, and the English we speak. The blob of HP Sauce on the side of your “Full English” has its origins in India, along with Worcestershire sauce, piccalilli and Camp Coffee (Ready? Aye Ready!), not to mention our love of Mulligatawny, kedgeree and Chicken Tikka Masala. There would have been no need for India Pale Ale (IPA) had our Tommies never been stationed in India and our beloved Gin and Tonic really came of age because of its anti-malarial properties.
Our ladies wear bangles, our children dungarees, Moss Bros rent cummerbunds and millions of Britons living in suburbia dwell in bungalows. Our thugs get sent to chokey so we can relax in our pyjamas… we wash our hair with shampoo, get water from the tank, occasionally enjoy a tiffin lunch, scold our children for eating too much candy, and, until the slump, generally enjoyed a cushy life. We listen to pundits until we go doolally. The list is endless, but my personal favourites are the Sid James classic “randy” (which derives from the Hindi word rand for prostitute) and, childishly I’ll admit, “goolies”, which is course derives from gol for circle or ball.
Britain of course created modern India, built the heart of its major cities – Mumbai and Calcutta still feel recognisably British, while New Delhi was modelled by Lutyens on our garden cities– its railways and its legal and political institutions. It is often forgotten, in both Britain and India, that the Congress Party which still dominates the country’s politics and government more than sixty years after its independence was founded by Allan Octavian Hume, a retired colonial civil servant, who summed up his hopes for India in this verse:
Sons of Ind, why sit ye idle,
Wait ye for some Deva’s aid?
Buckle to, be up and doing!
Nations by themselves are made!
India eventually took his advice and created the country whose business we are so desperate to share today. To succeed, Britain will need to be reminded how much we already owe India, the part it played in making us what we are, and why the “shared history” we have is much more equally shared than those who obsess about immigration realise.
Check the "Dean Nelson" article, especially the comments below.
Most of these Brits still think that they civilized the natives.
Amazing how a barbarian culture came to an ancient civilization, destroyed it and now claims to have civilized it.
More absurd is the fact that many Brits believe that they have given India the gift of English
Well, we already have plenty of languages and one more makes no difference,
Also, to destroy an ancient language that clearly increase IG (Sanskrit) and substitute it with a much less complex language (English) is a sad state of affairs.
BM's need to decide if they want to be part of B society and contribute like everyone else without religion being a part of the equation, return to dar ul islam or take up khilafat
"The two countries are already collaborating on a new IIT at Ropar in Punjab, and the new Indian Institute of Science Education & Research (IISER) in Pune, with five UK universities involved, including London's Imperial College."
I am curious, does UK really have anything to offer in terms of education?
Engineering? IIT-Ropar is being helped by them. UK has long been eclipsed in the field of engineering. What exactly can UK offer?
surinder wrote:"The two countries are already collaborating on a new IIT at Ropar in Punjab, and the new Indian Institute of Science Education & Research (IISER) in Pune, with five UK universities involved, including London's Imperial College."
I am curious, does UK really have anything to offer in terms of education?
Engineering? IIT-Ropar is being helped by them. UK has long been eclipsed in the field of engineering. What exactly can UK offer?
I am really curious.
Surinderji Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial are regularly ranked in the top most engineering universities. Posters keep on mindlessly ridiculing UK's university system due to personal prejudices and that conveys a really skewed perspective on this forum. Apparently "US News" rankings are fairly well known and respected ones in US (I am using them instead of Times ones to avoid charges of favouritism) and this is a Link to best engineering schools in the world as per them.
If you look at the list UK scores 3 schools out of top 20 and 2 out of top 10. The US has 5 schools out of top 10 ones. Per capita the UK system packs more than a punch and is actually very competitive. They may not have the scale of today's US or imperial finances anymore but to say that their engineering schools are pedestrian in quality compared to US ones is a joke on which even Americans would refuse to laugh at. The research and publications from their institutes are world level no matter what some anonymous folks say on the internet and this is validated time and again by their work. We have a lot to gain from their institutes and an arrogant attitude is the worst thing we can have. Especially when the mighty Unkil wants the poor injuns to wallow in the miseries of being bound to paqland forever, clearly demonstrated by the response to wiki leaks.
We have a lot to learn and will learn it from anywhere we can US or UK, no space for dogmas only pragmatism!!
Munna, That was illuminated. I have to admit, when I heard of IIT-Ropar being helped by UK, I was dismissive. But you have a point and thanks for educating me.
By the way, IIT-B and IIT-D ahead of IIT-Kanpur? Kanpur listed as top school for years on end. (Kanpur at 60, and Bombay at 30 & Delhi at 35?). That does not feel correct, to be honest.
rsingh wrote:OK following comment put loudmaouth millipedi in its place
r Cameron may or may not be a loudmouth.
David Miliband certainly is:
• What else could explain this headline in the Daily Mail [1]: 'We would be better off with Cameron': Union chief brands Miliband a 'smug and arrogant s***'? That was Derek Simpson's view.
• What else could explain this headline in the Daily Mail [2]: 'Who the f*** are you to lecture me?': Russian minister's extraordinary rant at David Miliband? That was Sergei Lavrov's view.
• What else could explain this comment in the Daily Telegraph [3]: Why did he think it was tactful or clever to deliver a speech declaring there was no such thing "as the war on terror" in the Taj Hotel in Mumbai where dozens of innocent people were killed in a hail of machine gun bullets by terrorists? Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group linked with the murderous attack, welcomed our Foreign Secretary's "positive comments!" ... ?
• Or this one [4]: There is a rather significant impediment at the Foreign Office – the Foreign Secretary. Americans who have dealt with David Miliband confirm what many British journalists have long known. The Foreign Secretary is arrogant, given to lecturing veteran American diplomats on policies and regions of which he has only the most superficial knowledge?
Loudmouth? The accusation is a bit rich coming from David Miliband [5].
----------
Ranga khus huaaaaa..................
BTW, Milliband's grandfather fought for the Bolsheviks against the Russians in 1917. So the family is very much part of the western elites.
One of the comments in that nelson article talks about India not doing anything for the US in the past. Its the biggest lie imaginable.
2-3 million in Bengal died during the bengal famine just so that the American war effort could be sustained in the Pacific theatre.
India literally "fed' that entire effort. My grandfather was in the Police force at that time, and the stories he had give a much truer picture of how much more useful India was to the WW2 war effort in the East than what the Americans will have you believe.
That comment also has the lie "we don't visit your poverty stricken country" - which is bullshit. Almost a million americans come visiting each year to Yindia.
And naturally only a poverty stricken country can buy 8 planes for 2.2 billion dollars...
pranav - with respect, being a bolshevik is the exact opposite of western elite. the 'bolshies' and communists in general were the mortal enemy till 15 years ago for the capitalist system
the americans will always deny and denigrate india's contribution to ww2 since in asia they had china as their future stooge, a plan they failed to pull off despite backing chiang kai shek to the hilt
We have a lot to learn and will learn it from anywhere we can US or UK, no space for dogmas only pragmatism!!
I agree completly. There is a lot of ignorance and negative attitude existing among the many from India about the education system in US and UK while many benefit by coming and learning from UK or US. It will also be good if some newspapers do not present negatively.
Though Hyderabad had its own currency notes (Hali Sicca currency), and the Indian
rupee had never been legal tender in Hyderabad, Indian currency circulated freely in that
State till about the close of 1947. Also, in December 1947, as much as {only}30 per cent of the cover in respect of the State’s note circulation was in the form of Indian rupees and another 60 per cent in the form of Government of India securities. There were no
restrictions on the exchange of Hyderabad currency into Indian currency, which
throughout had a higher value
Thank you arnab.
Exactly my point. The indian rupees had never been a legal tender. Means british indian currency circulated illegally in that state till about independence. Speaks much about the control and extent British indian policies in a state within a state.
This is similar to 'liquor is never legal in gujarat but is available freely everywhere" But only 30% of the population drinks.
our media and internet yahoos tend to compare the average in UK/US with the elites (itvity/finance/mayo) types in India and pat themselves on the back and make fun.
hopefully the well educated are not under any illusions and working quietly to sharpen the knives.
surinder wrote:"The two countries are already collaborating on a new IIT at Ropar in Punjab, and the new Indian Institute of Science Education & Research (IISER) in Pune, with five UK universities involved, including London's Imperial College."
I am curious, does UK really have anything to offer in terms of education?
Engineering? IIT-Ropar is being helped by them. UK has long been eclipsed in the field of engineering. What exactly can UK offer?
I am really curious.
Surinderji Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial are regularly ranked in the top most engineering universities. Posters keep on mindlessly ridiculing UK's university system due to personal prejudices and that conveys a really skewed perspective on this forum. Apparently "US News" rankings are fairly well known and respected ones in US (I am using them instead of Times ones to avoid charges of favouritism) and this is a Link to best engineering schools in the world as per them.
If you look at the list UK scores 3 schools out of top 20 and 2 out of top 10. The US has 5 schools out of top 10 ones. Per capita the UK system packs more than a punch and is actually very competitive. They may not have the scale of today's US or imperial finances anymore but to say that their engineering schools are pedestrian in quality compared to US ones is a joke on which even Americans would refuse to laugh at. The research and publications from their institutes are world level no matter what some anonymous folks say on the internet and this is validated time and again by their work. We have a lot to gain from their institutes and an arrogant attitude is the worst thing we can have. Especially when the mighty Unkil wants the poor injuns to wallow in the miseries of being bound to paqland forever, clearly demonstrated by the response to wiki leaks.
We have a lot to learn and will learn it from anywhere we can US or UK, no space for dogmas only pragmatism!!
Not just IIT Ropar (where UK profs recently visited - see photos), IIT Bhubaneshwar has developed some collaborations with University of Edinburgh and Warwick.
Suraj wrote:It would be very interesting if we can encourage Cameron to assist us with obtaining some of BP's assets, as they seek to sell their stakes in various places hurriedly to pay for the Gulf of Mexico spill.
That is a good suggestion Suraj-garu!
There are other industries as well such as BAe systems for a possible equity holding or spin offs.
I think again we are making the mistake of raising sky-high in standing what the reality of UK-USA presence in science education actually is.
The primary factors that push up the high ranks of UK-US unis are (1) application pressure and competition from students to get into the uni (2) the number of papers in peer reviewed journos (3) amount of external funding the uni attracts (4) income and placement of graduates (5) entrepreneurial output of graduates
If these four factors are analyzed, one can easily see that they may not actually reflect scientific contribution in general except (3) and partly (5). If the amount of external funding is being sourced competitively from industries then that indicates that at least the educational output is aligned to current market forces. (5) indicates generation of new sources of economic growth.
Apart from these all the other factors are subject to what can be referred to as a gravity attractor - more mass there already is, more mass it absorbs and may not reflect actual utility or contribution. Most unis being bandied about here, thrive on a careful management of past glory - which affects, (1)+(2)+(4), and to a lesser degree, (3)+(5).
Copying and becoming extensions of uk+us unis is the wrong way to go for India. Soviet Russians developed tech mostly on their own, because they had severe restrictions on being able to copy [rare exceptions of things being sent off by agents from west] and because they were preparing constantly for war. Unless you are developing things to outstrip and outrun your competitors you cannot have technological edge.
India always seems to have had this dichotomy between pretending to be independently and self-sufficiently innovative, and a kind of post-colonial psychological dependence on approval of and copying/"learning" from ex-colonizing groupings. UK+US developed technologically to keep an edge on war-capabilities over all possible rivals - this is something you cannot do by depending on crumbs thrown by those who are already your superior.
Apart from this, the main ills of Indian education is a lack of solid incentives for innovation. There are little GOI policy steps to encourage competitive participation by industry, preventing political penetration and manipulation of university positions, and a sustained and consistent policy to encourage individual talent and innovation, and perhaps a lack of connecting science to economic growth, entrepreneurship, and war-capability and power projection.
These are the lessons in policy to be learnt from the UK-USA systems and not copying their "education". Most of that education in reality is abominable at the undergrad level, and at the postgrad level is fueled by a healthy recruitment of international talent. I teach undergrads and postgrads and supervise PhD candidates in the "west". It makes me wince and twist to hear such high praise of the undergrad (and the foundational schooling behind it) education from such unis.
In a recent workshop that had several graduates from one of the chi-chi institutes mentioned in previous posts, did not know some of the most basic concepts that any well rounded grad curriculum should have trained them for. Those who were familiar with the concepts were of German, Russian, Japanese and Indian origin, and even one from Chile. It is not just basic material but a whole attitude towards logical thinking and what we call in maths the structure of proof. That is increasingly going down the drain - with a blind faith in computational techniques, without realizing that behind that computational stuff you still need to understand theoretically what is going on, and you have to learn to think not to think in pre-ordained ways.
If India really wanted educational collaboration it shoudl hedge its bets - bring Russian collaboration - superb brains and training in technology and sciences, bring in the Germans [who do so already on individual basis and discreetly but not on institutional basis that much], and the Japanese [in micro especially and biotech].
Last edited by brihaspati on 30 Jul 2010 18:48, edited 1 time in total.
brihaspati wrote:If India really wanted educational collaboration it shoudl hedge its bets - bring Russian collaboration - superb brains and training in technology and sciences, bring in the Germans [who do so already on individual basis and discreetly but not on institutional basis that much], and the Japanese [in micro especially and biotech].
Excellent post!! B-ji as I said there is no space for dogmas for an education starved country like ours I wanted to talk about Lomonosov University, Munchen and Tokyo Unis too, but this may not have been the right thread. We have to learn and not copy from the leaders, wherever they may be. Ragarding your observations about undergrad population I do admit that my experiences on both sides of the Atlantic were at post-grad level, so I speak from that perspective onlee.
Last edited by munna on 30 Jul 2010 19:30, edited 1 time in total.
There is a huge jump from undergrad to postgrad. Undergard is about pushing them out to the lower end of the market and making money for the uni in the process. Postgrad is about funding so you need talent - and this is where foundational training from non-UK-US unis help sustain levels.
If India really wanted educational collaboration it shoudl hedge its bets - bring Russian collaboration - superb brains and training in technology and sciences, bring in the Germans [who do so already on individual basis and discreetly but not on institutional basis that much], and the Japanese [in micro especially and biotech].
Well said B-ji! I was talking about buying spin-off stakes in some industries (such as BP or bofors self-propelled howitzers) and moving them to India.
Except Russia, for some unknown reasons Germany and Japan are shy of collaborating with India AFAIK. Perhaps it is WWII. India, being one of the key contributors to allied forces, should comfort these two democracies in east and west to develop interdependent R&D centers.
There was a talk of Japan sponsored trade corridor between Delhi/Mumbai.
Perhaps Germany can bring its heavy engg industry to setup a trade corridor in the east Chennai-Nagapur corridor (of something like that).
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