Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

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Atri
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Atri »

I never liked any ramayans on TV..

Somehow I feel the actors who played Shri Rama in Sagar's Ramayan (Arun Govil) and Yudhishthira in Chopra's MBH (Gajendra Chauhan) killed the depth of character. many people associate Sri Raama with face of Govil and Chauhan.

Sri Rama is highly charismatic and successful leader, leaving aside the fact that he was Shri Vishnu himself. The casting of Chopra's MBH was much better. Although raama is a "good boy", he has played great deal of politics throughout, if only we choose to dig deeper. We need a PIF politician like Raama today, who appears "good boy" but carefully plays his cards for benefit of Indic. MKG was somewhat closer but not PIF. A PIF-MKG would be great...
Yagnasri
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Yagnasri »

The story of Kannappa is of Srikalahasthi Temple. There is a very old movie on that with Dr Rajkumar acting as Kannappa. In Telugu Bhaktha Kannappa in color is br Krishnam Raju which was also huge hit and he got great name for acting.

We are all forgetting Vidura - Kunthi stayed in his house during Padavas stay in forests and not with the King. When the queen of Puru empire staying in the house of servent what can we say about the caste. The respect shown to Vidura and his greatness was praised by one and sundry in Mahabharatha. Caste is almost irralavent in the society of that time.
ShyamSP
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ShyamSP »

Narayana Rao wrote:The story of Kannappa is of Srikalahasthi Temple. There is a very old movie on that with Dr Rajkumar acting as Kannappa. In Telugu Bhaktha Kannappa in color is br Krishnam Raju which was also huge hit and he got great name for acting.
I think it was Dr Raj Kumar's first movie (Bedara Kannappa in Kannada - Kalahasti Mahatyam in Telugu).

Similar appeal song ("that I don't know how to pray") in a later movie acted by Krishnam Raju.

Both movie songs are still hit and played a lot during Maha Sivaratri time. In that town, main Shiva temple is at the bottom on the hill and Kannappa temple is at the top of the hill.
RamaY
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Narayana Rao wrote:The story of Kannappa is of Srikalahasthi Temple. There is a very old movie on that with Dr Rajkumar acting as Kannappa. In Telugu Bhaktha Kannappa in color is br Krishnam Raju which was also huge hit and he got great name for acting.

We are all forgetting Vidura - Kunthi stayed in his house during Padavas stay in forests and not with the King. When the queen of Puru empire staying in the house of servent what can we say about the caste. The respect shown to Vidura and his greatness was praised by one and sundry in Mahabharatha. Caste is almost irralavent in the society of that time.
That is the fate of Satyavati.

When she was approached by Santana, her father demanded that her children will become the kings of Kuruvamsa and Santana and Bhishma agreed to it. And from there it is all slippery slope for the old Kuru Vamsa. I wouldn't call it Kuru Vamsa at all, it is as Kuru as JLN family is Gandhis :P

Look at it -

1. Satyavati had Vyasa from Parasara
2. Ambika, Ambalika and Vidura's mothers had Dhritarashtra, Pandu and Vidura from Vyasa

* An interesting aspect here is that if all these guys are sons of Vyasa then imagine if Satyavati (who herself was a fisherman's daughter) made Vidura the king. There wouldnt have been an MB war and decline of Bharata Varsha. Does it mean one sticks to the PERCEIVED upper-caste the moment they get a chace? Why didn't Satyavati do the ultimate coup, especially when it is the most Dharmic thing to do? Perhaps it is her karma phala (that the throne is passed not to an eligible person, Bhishma in previous generation, but to an ineligible person thus destroying their own ancestry?

3. Kunti & Madri had Pandavas from Yama, Vayu, Indra and Ashvinis
4. Subhadra had Abhimanyu from Arjuna
5. Uttara had Parikshit from Abhimanyu

so who is even 1% kuru in Kauravas and Pandavas? Which caste are Yama/Vayu/Indra/Ashvins?

All is maya only...

the casteism is in the minds of intellectual slaves only, irrespective of how that Tamas enters one's mind.
johneeG
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

Narayana Rao wrote: We are all forgetting Vidura - Kunthi stayed in his house during Padavas stay in forests and not with the King. When the queen of Puru empire staying in the house of servent what can we say about the caste. The respect shown to Vidura and his greatness was praised by one and sundry in Mahabharatha. Caste is almost irralavent in the society of that time.
I think the Mahabharatha period(sandhi time between the end of Dwapara and beginging of Kali) showcased a steady breakdown of caste system.

The essential teaching of Bhagawad Gita, as far as Arjuna was concerned, is that Arjuna must fight the war because he happens to be a 'kshatriya'. This teaching has corollaries:Non-kshatriyas should not have fought the war.

But, the behaviour of Dronacharya, Kripacharya and Ashwattama runs contrary to the above. These people were brahmins. Teaching to pupils was part of their profession, but to go to the battlefield and fight wars was not. So, were they not exceeding their 'sva-dharma'.

Arjuna wanting to eschew war and take to begging is equivalent to Dronacharya taking up arms.

----

Vidhura, himself, followed caste system. After teaching Vidhura Neeti, Dhritarashtra requests to be taught Brahma-Vidya. Vidhura says that he is unfit to teach Brahma Vidya because of his caste. (This episode also shows that even if he were offered the empire of Hastinapura, he would have definitely rejected such an offer owing to his caste. His own definition of Dharma includes adhering to the caste system...)

So, caste system was not completely irrelevent. In fact, caste played a very important role. For example, Karna accompanied Duryodhana to Draupadi's swamvara. Many king tried their hand at the challenge and failed. Karna was about to try his hand at the challenge(of hitting the high hanging fish's eye by looking through the oil in a bowl). Everyone(including the Pandavas) thought that Karna would surely do it and thereby win the hand of Draupadi. But, he was stopped from trying by Draupadi. She declared in the assembly that even if Karna succeeded in hitting the fish's eye, she would not marry him(because of his caste).

So, caste played an important role. Yet, there are also simultaneous behaviours that disregarded the caste. So, I would think that it showcases a period when the caste system was very strong but was steadily being corrupted(or broken down).

------
On an unrelated note:
Sri Rama was conservative in every way. His views on all aspects of society and politics were conservative and orthodox. I think, He viewed propagating Atheism as a punishable offence.

There is a famous(or notorious) incident with regard to caste system: Sri Rama, as a King of Ayodhya, killed Shambuka. Shambuka's crime was to engage in Tapasya despite being a Shudra(which was prohibited for Shudras in Treta Yuga).

Similarly, Sri Rama punished incest of Vali with death. Then, Sri Rama was also most orthodox about His views on women. Kaushalya learnt that Dasharatha had banished Sri Rama to the woods for 14 years without any fault of Sri Rama. She was deeply saddened and said that she would also accompany her son to woods. But Sri Rama forbade it and declared that a wife's primary duty is to serve her husband and the children or other relatives were secondary.

After Ravana was defeated by Sri Rama, Sita was brought into His presence(in full public view). And in full public gaze, Sri Rama declared that Sita's character was suspect due to circumstances (of being forcible confined by Ravana who is a notorious womanizer). It was well understood that, it was not Sita's fault that She was kidnapped by Ravana. Yet, Sri Rama refuses to take Her back and tells Her that He fought Ravana only to protect His family honour and that She is free to go with anyone(like Vibhishana, Sugriva, ...etc or anyone else) She wants. It is only after the Gods vouch for Her character that He accepts Her. And yet, He promptly abandons Her in woods when the public of Ayodhya start doubting Her character on the same point(that She was forcible confined by Ravana for a period of almost 1year and Ravana was a notorious womanizer).

So, Sri Rama, Himself, was very orthodox and traditional. In fact, He gave up anything and everything but refused to budge an inch from His orthodox-ness.
RamaY
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

^ if we understand the difference between Varna and Caste and use the appropriate term then things get cleared.

What many people followed in these circumstances were their varna dharma. I will give couple of examples using current secular modern democratic system.

1. Imagine I am 40yrs old and mastered all aspects of civic administration and got Ph.Ds from the worlds top institutuions. Imagine I am a senior professor in Admin Staff college of india training hundreds of IAS officers. Suddenly one day I wanted to become IAS officer but I did not pass that one exam when I was before 30 yrs. Can I demand the megistraterialmpowers that come with IAS position?

2. Imagine, our nation is pulled into war by Pakis. I am a patriotic Indian with a gun license. Can I jump into the war and fight on Indian army's side without their invitation and approval?

P.S: read Rama's words during Agni Pareeksha episode. He says the sick eye doesn't see he fire for what it is. So it relies on an Agni Pariksha for the Fire.

We need to get away from the TV and movie depictions by secularists, manuvafis etc and read the books and make right understanding.

Draupadi told everyone in Virata's kingdom that she had 5 husbands (Gandharvas or whatever) and she worked for Draupadi. If she were the only person with 5 husbands in that time, then is the entire virata kingdom full of idiots not to make the connection? Everyone took it so cooly when a woman walks into streets telling she had 5 husbands, what does it mean?
johneeG
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

RamaY wrote:^ if we understand the difference between Varna and Caste and use the appropriate term then things get cleared.
The essential point is that there was, at that time, no difference between Varna and Caste. To be sure, what is caste and what is varna?
RamaY wrote: What many people followed in these circumstances were their varna dharma. I will give couple of examples using current secular modern democratic system.

1. Imagine I am 40yrs old and mastered all aspects of civic administration and got Ph.Ds from the worlds top institutuions. Imagine I am a senior professor in Admin Staff college of india training hundreds of IAS officers. Suddenly one day I wanted to become IAS officer but I did not pass that one exam when I was before 30 yrs. Can I demand the megistraterialmpowers that come with IAS position?

2. Imagine, our nation is pulled into war by Pakis. I am a patriotic Indian with a gun license. Can I jump into the war and fight on Indian army's side without their invitation and approval?
All that is fine. The bone of contention is 'birth based' criteria instead of 'merit-based' criteria. Let me also give example using current secular modern democratic system

1. Imagine I am 20yrs old and want to acquire a Ph.D from an institution. I go there and apply for it. But, my application is rejected on the basis of my 'birth'. Eg: Ekalavya.

2. Imagine I want to be an IAS officer and am pursuing it. But, I am punished for pursuing it because of my 'birth'. Eg: Shambuka.

Note carefully that birth was an over-riding factor the above two cases(Ekalavya and Shambuka).
RamaY wrote: P.S: read Rama's words during Agni Pareeksha episode. He says the sick eye doesn't see he fire for what it is. So it relies on an Agni Pariksha for the Fire.
I know. More importantly, Agni Pareeksha was not ordered by Sri Rama. Sri Rama simply declared that Sita was free to do as She wishes(in short, Sri Rama abandoned the Mother Sita). It was Sita Amma who decided to prove Her character through Agni Pareeksha. The Gods gave verbal testimony to Sri Rama vouching for the unblemished conduct of Sita during the time She spent in Lanka. It is, then, that Sri Rama accepts Her.

Moral of the story: Only a chaste, pious, devoted and unmolested woman was acceptable as wife. If the woman is molested then she becomes tainted. In that case, the husband can abandon her(in fact, husband must abandon her to protect his own reputation).
RamaY wrote: We need to get away from the TV and movie depictions by secularists, manuvafis etc and read the books and make right understanding.
Indeed. And one should also accept it in its totality instead of picking only those parts that are convenient and weaving a new narrative. Also, one should desist from making one's own interpretations to make it fit into one's philosophy. In short, one should accept it as it is rather than try to create(or interpret) it into newer forms to suit one's own ideas.

Since you mention Manu, I had a point to make:
Manu is an important figure in Hinduism. He was the first law-maker. Manu-smriti has quite an importance in Hinduism. If something has been mentioned in Manu-smriti, then it cannot be brushed aside.

Modern Hindus' ignorance of Manu is not surprising. Because modern Hindus are ignorant of much of Hinduism. But, this ignorance does not in least indicate that Manu is not important. Of course, whether Manu-smriti was implemented or not is debatable. But, Manu's and his smriti's importance in Hinduism cannot be ignored. If Manu made unsavory remarks on any subject, then thats the way it is. It seems to me that some people want to disown Manu just because he has become a controversial figure.

I feel(though I don't know) that if one examines the various smritis, one would find most smritis in agreement with Manu on most aspects.

Of course, one way to disown only the controversial parts of Manu Smriti is to claim that those parts are later interpolations. But, how can one determine which are interpolations and which are not?

Anyway, interpolations or not, if the Smriti is accepted by the Orthodox school, then it is what Hinduism is. No point in denying it.
RamaY wrote: Draupadi told everyone in Virata's kingdom that she had 5 husbands (Gandharvas or whatever) and she worked for Draupadi. If she were the only person with 5 husbands in that time, then is the entire virata kingdom full of idiots not to make the connection? Everyone took it so cooly when a woman walks into streets telling she had 5 husbands, what does it mean?
Well, the simple point is that she claimed her husbands were Gandharvas. In Gandharvas, many strange and innovative customs may be followed. Gandharvas seem to be happy go lucky types who are fun oriented.

Anyway, many many people must be working under Draupadi because she was THE Empress. If some of them have special backgrounds, it is hardly surprising.

About polyandry:
"Vaisampayana said, 'Then all the Pandavas and the illustrious king of the Panchalas and all others there present stood up and saluted with reverence the illustrious Rishi Krishna (Dwaipayana). The high-souled Rishi, saluting them in return and enquiring after their welfare, sat down on a carpet of gold. And commanded by Krishna (Dwaipayana) of immeasurable energy, those foremost of men all sat down on costly seats. A little after, O monarch, the son of Prishata in sweet accents asked the illustrious Rishi about the wedding of his daughter. And he said, 'How, O illustrious one, can one woman become the wife of many men without being defiled by sin? O, tell me truly all about this.' Hearing these words Vyasa replied, 'This practice, O king, being opposed to usage and the Vedas, hath become obsolete. I desire, however, to hear what the opinion of each of you is upon this matter.'

"Hearing these words of the Rishi, Drupada spoke first, saying, 'The practice is sinful in my opinion, being opposed to both usage and the Vedas. O best of Brahmanas, nowhere have I seen many men having one wife. The illustrious ones also of former ages never had such a usage amongst them.
The wise should never commit a sin. I, therefore, can never make up mind to act in this way. This practice always appeareth to me to be of doubtful morality.

"After Drupada had ceased, Dhrishtadyumna spoke, saying 'O bull amongst Brahmanas, O thou of ascetic wealth, how can, O Brahmana, the elder brother, if he is of a good disposition, approach the wife of his younger brother? The ways of morality are ever subtle, and, therefore, we know them not. We cannot, therefore, say what is conformable to morality and what not. We cannot do such a deed, therefore, with a safe conscience. Indeed, O Brahmana, I cannot say, 'Let Draupadi become the common wife of five brothers.'

"Yudhishthira then spoke, saying, 'My tongue never uttereth an untruth and my heart never inclineth to what is sinful. When my heart approveth of it, it can never be sinful. I have heard in the Purana that a lady of name Jatila, the foremost of all virtuous women belonging to the race of Gotama had married seven Rishis. So also an ascetic's daughter, born of a tree, had in former times united herself in marriage with ten brothers all bearing the same name of Prachetas and who were all of souls exalted by asceticism. O foremost of all that are acquainted with the rules of morality, it is said that obedience to superior is ever meritorious. Amongst all superiors, it is well-known that the mother is the foremost.

Even she hath commanded us to enjoy Draupadi as we do anything obtained as alms. It is for this, O best of Brahmanas, that I regard the (proposed) act as virtuous.'

"Kunti then said, 'The act is even so as the virtuous Yudhishthira hath said. I greatly fear, O Brahmana, lest my speech should become untrue. How shall I be saved from untruth?'

"When they had all finished speaking, Vyasa said, 'O amiable one, how shall thou be saved from the consequence of untruth? Even this is eternal virtue! I will not, O king of the Panchalas, discourse on this before you all. But thou alone shalt listen to me when I disclose how this practice hath been established and why it is to be regarded as old and eternal. There is no doubt that what Yudhishthira hath said is quite conformable to virtue.'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Then the illustrious Vyasa--the master Dwaipayana--rose, and taking hold of Drupada's hand led him to a private apartment. The Pandavas and Kunti and Dhrishtadyumna of Prishata's race sat there, waiting for the return of Vyasa and Drupada. Meanwhile, Dwaipayana began his discourse with illustrious monarch for explaining how the practice of polyandry could not be regarded as sinful.'"


"Vaisampayana said, 'Vyasa continued, 'In days of yore, the celestials had once commenced a grand sacrifice in the forest of Naimisha. At that sacrifice, O king, Yama, the son of Vivaswat, became the slayer of the devoted animals. Yama, thus employed in that sacrifice, did not (during that period), O king, kill a single human being. Death being suspended in the world, the number of human beings increased very greatly. Then Soma and Sakra and Varuna and Kuvera, the Sadhyas, the Rudras, the Vasus, the twin Aswins,--these and other celestials went unto Prajapati, the Creator of the universe. Struck with fear for the increase of
the human population of the world they addressed the Master of creation and said, 'Alarmed, O lord, at the increase of human beings on earth, we come to thee for relief. Indeed, we crave thy protection.'

Hearing those words the Grandsire said, 'Ye have little cause to be frightened at this increase of human beings. Ye all are immortal. It behoveth you not to take fright at human beings.' The celestials replied, 'The mortals have all become immortal. There is no distinction now between us and them. Vexed at the disappearance of all distinction, we have come to thee in order that thou mayest distinguish us from them.' The Creator then said, 'The son of Vivaswat is even now engaged in the grand sacrifice. It is for this that men are not dying. But when Yama's work in connection with the sacrifice terminates, men will again begin to die as before. Strengthened by your respective energies, Yama will, when that time comes, sweep away by thousands the inhabitants on earth who will scarcely have then any energy left in them.'

"Vyasa continued, 'Hearing these words of the first-born deity, the celestials returned to the spot where the grand sacrifice was being performed. And the mighty one sitting by the side of the Bhagirathi saw a (golden) lotus being carried along by the current. And beholding that (golden) lotus, they wondered much. And amongst them, that foremost of celestials, viz., Indra, desirous of ascertaining whence it came, proceeded up along the course of the Bhagirathi. And reaching that spot whence the goddess Ganga issues perennially, Indra beheld a woman possessing the splendour of fire. The woman who had come there to take water was washing herself in the stream, weeping all the while. The tear-drops she shed, falling on the stream, were being transformed into golden lotuses. The wielder of the thunderbolt, beholding that wonderful sight, approached the woman and asked her, 'Who art thou, amiable lady?
Why dost thou weep? I desire to know the truth. O, tell me everything.'

"Vyasa continued, 'The woman thereupon answered, 'O Sakra, thou mayest know who I am and why, unfortunate that I am, I weep, if only, O chief of the celestials, thou comest with me as I lead the way. Thou shall then see what it is I weep for." Hearing these words of the lady, Indra followed her as she led the way. And soon he saw, not far off from where he was, a handsome youth with a young lady seated on a throne placed on one of the peaks of Himavat and playing at dice. Beholding that youth, the thief of the celestials said, 'Know, intelligent youth, that this universe is under my sway.' Seeing, however, that the person addressed was so engrossed in dice that he took no notice of what he said, Indra was
possessed by anger and repeated, 'I am the lord of the universe. The youth who was none else than the god Mahadeva (the god of the gods), seeing Indra filled with wrath, only smiled, having cast a glance at him. At that glance, however, the chief of the celestials was at once paralysed and stood there like a stake. When the game at dice was over, Isana addressing the weeping woman said, 'Bring Sakra hither, for I shall soon so deal with him that pride may not again enter his heart.' As soon as Sakra was touched by that woman, the chief of the celestials with limbs paralysed by that touch, fell down on the earth. The illustrious Isana
of fierce energy then said unto him, 'Act not, O Sakra, ever again in this way. Remove this huge stone, for thy strength and energy are immeasurable, and enter the hole (it will disclose) where await some others possessing the splendour of the sun and who are all like unto thee.' Indra, then, on removing that stone, beheld a cave in the breast of that king of mountains, within which were four others resembling himself. Beholding their plight, Sakra became seized with grief and exclaimed, 'Shall I be even like these?' Then the god Girisha, looking full at Indra with expanded eyes, said in anger, 'O thou of a hundred sacrifices, enter this cave without loss of time, for thou hast from folly insulted me.' Thus addressed by the lord Isana, the chief of the celestials, in consequence of that terrible imprecation, was deeply pained, and with limbs weakened by fear trembled like the wind-shaken leaf of a Himalayan fig.

And cursed unexpectedly by the god owning a bull for his vehicle, Indra, with joined hands and shaking from head to foot, addressed that fierce god of multi-form manifestations, saving, 'Thou art, O Bhava, the over-looker of the infinite Universe!' Hearing these words the god of fiery energy smiled and said, 'Those that are of disposition like thine never obtain my grace. These others (within the cave) had at one time been like thee. Enter thou this cave, therefore, and lie there for some time. The fate of you all shall certainly be the same. All of you shall have to take your birth in the world of men, where, having achieved many difficult feats and slaying a large number of men, ye shall again by the merits of your respective deeds, regain the valued region of Indra. Ye shall accomplish all I have said and much more
besides, of other kinds of work.' Then those Indras, of their shorn glory said, 'We shall go from our celestial regions even unto the region of men where salvation is ordained to be difficult of acquisition.

But let the gods Dharma, Vayu, Maghavat, and the twin Aswins beget us upon our would-be mother. Fighting with men by means of both celestial and human weapons, we shall again come back into the region of Indra.'

"Vyasa continued, 'Hearing these words of the former Indras, the wielder of the thunderbolt once more addressed that foremost of gods, saying, 'Instead of going myself, I shall, with a portion of my energy, create from myself a person for the accomplishment of the task (thou assignest) to form the fifth among these!' Vishwabhuk, Bhutadhaman, Sivi of great energy, Santi the fourth, and Tejaswin, these it is said were the five Indras of old.

And the illustrious god of the formidable bow, from his kindness, granted unto the five
Indras the desire they cherished. And he also appointed that woman of extraordinary beauty, who was none else than celestial Sri (goddess of grace) herself, to be their common wife in the world of men.

Accompanied by all those Indras, the god Isana then went unto Narayana of immeasurable energy, the Infinite, the Immaterial, the Uncreate, the Old, the Eternal, and the Spirit of these universes without limits. Narayana approved of everything. Those Indras then were born in the world of men. And Hari (Narayana) took up two hairs from his body, one of which hairs was black and the other white. And those two hairs entered the wombs of two of the Yadu race, by name Devaki and Rohini. And one of these hairs viz., that which was white, became Valadeva. And the hair that was black was born as Kesava's self, Krishna. And those Indras of old who had been confined in the cave on the Himavat are none else than the sons of Pandu, endued with great energy. And Arjuna amongst the Pandavas, called also Savyasachin (using both hands with equal dexterity) is a portion of Sakra.'

"Vyasa continued, 'Thus, O king, they who have been born as the Pandavas are none else than those Indras of old. And the celestial Sri herself who had been appointed as their wife is this Draupadi of extraordinary beauty. How could she whose effulgence is like that of the sun or the moon, whose fragrance spreads for two miles around, take her birth in any other than an extraordinary way, viz., from within the earth, by virtue of the sacrificial rites? Unto thee, O king, I cheerfully grant this other boon in the form of spiritual sight. Behold now the sons of Kunti endued with their sacred and celestial bodies of old!'

"Vaisampayana continued, 'Saying this, that sacred Brahmana Vyasa of generous deeds, by means of his ascetic power, granted celestial sight unto the king. Thereupon the king beheld all the Pandavas endued with their former bodies. And the king saw them possessed of celestial bodies, with golden crowns and celestial garlands, and each resembling Indra himself, with complexions radiant as fire or the sun, and decked with every ornament, and handsome, and youthful, with broad chests and statures measuring about five cubits. Endued with every accomplishment, and decked with celestial robes of great beauty and fragrant garlands of excellent making the king beheld them as so many three-eyed gods (Mahadeva), or Vasus, or Rudras, or Adityas themselves. And observing the Pandavas in the forms of those Indras of
old, and Arjuna also in the form of Indra sprung from Sakra himself, king Drupada was highly pleased.

And the monarch wondered much on beholding that manifestation of celestial power under deep disguise. The king looking at his daughter, that foremost of women endued with great beauty, like unto a celestial damsel and possessed of the splendour of fire or the moon, regarded her as the worthy wife of those celestial beings, for her beauty, splendour and fame. And beholding that wonderful sight, the monarch touched the feet of Satyavati's son, exclaiming, 'O great Rishi, nothing is miraculous in thee!' The Rishi then cheerfully continued, 'In a certain hermitage there was an illustrious Rishi's daughter, who, though handsome and chaste, obtained not a husband. The maiden gratified, by severe ascetic penances, the god Sankara (Mahadeva). The lord Sankara, gratified at her penances, told her himself. 'Ask thou the boon thou desirest' Thus addressed, the maiden repeatedly said unto the boon-giving Supreme Lord, 'I desire to obtain a husband possessed of every accomplishment. Sankara, the chief of the gods, gratified with her, gave her the boon she asked, saying,

'Thou shall have, amiable maiden, five husbands.' The maiden, who had succeeded in gratifying the god, said again, 'O Sankara, I desire to have from thee only one husband possessed of every virtue?' The god of gods, well-pleased with her, spake again, saying, 'Thou hast, O maiden, addressed me five full times, repeating, 'Give me a husband.' Therefore, O amiable one, it shall even be as thou hast asked. Blessed be thou. All this, however, will happen in a future life of thine!'

"Vyasa continued, 'O Drupada, this thy daughter of celestial beauty is that maiden. Indeed, the faultless Krishna sprung from Prishata's race hath been pre-ordained to become the common wife of five husbands. The celestial Sri, having undergone severe ascetic penances, hath, for the sake of the Pandavas, had her birth as thy daughter, in the course of thy grand sacrifice. That handsome goddess, waited upon by all the celestials, as a consequence of her own acts becomes the (common) wife of five husbands. It is for this that the self-create had created her. Having listened to all this, O king Drupada, do what thou desirest.'"

"Vaisampayana said, 'Drupada, on hearing this, observed, O great Rishi, it was only when I had not heard this from thee that I had sought to act in the way I told thee of. Now, however, that I know all, I cannot be indifferent to what hath been ordained by the gods. Therefore do I resolve to accomplish what thou hast said. The knot of destiny cannot be untied. Nothing in this world is the result of our own acts. That which had been appointed by us in view of securing one only bridegroom hath now terminated in favour of many. As Krishna (in a former life) had repeatedly said, 'O, give me a husband!' the great god himself even gave her the boon she had asked. The god himself knows the right or wrong of this. As regards myself, when Sankara hath ordained so, right or wrong, no sin can attach to me. Let these with happy hearts take, as ordained, the hand of Krishna with the rites.'
In short, Draupadi was a special case. Yudhishtira mentions some such special cases in Puranas. Polyandry was uncommon just as it is today. Drupada's initial reaction tells as much.

Karna says during the match of dice that woman married to five husbands is same as a prostitute. It again shows that polyandry was not a regular custom. It was considered weird and degenerate(attitudes similar to today).

Why then, there was no doubt when Sairandhri claimed to have five husbands just like Draupadi?
Hmm, maybe because nobody in Virata's kingdom suspected Draupadi to serve in a small kingdom under a guise.

I mean do you suspect your neighbor to be Osama Bin Laden even if he resembles him... especially if he says that he is a fan of Osama? You would do some other rationalization.

---
BTW, the logic that you applied to the Kuru dynasty in the earlier post: Do you think Sri Rama is a Dasharathi (and a Kshatriya) by that logic or not?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

johneeGji,
At the outset,I am going to be a lit bit intrusive.One of the things thats stopping unity of Hindus today is caste based reservation.BrahmaNAS had a head start and it was natural for the BRITISH to use that angle.Since a large number of people benefited from reservations,it has continued till now.

there have been very very few self-identified 'sc' posters in BRF.I can remember only one other from TN.Your viewpoint is valuable.I believe that quality modern education should be available to everyone.Like most others,I have no doubt about the immense potential and capabilities of our vast population and the immense benefit to indviduals,families,castes and society at large when this potential is realised.

Since you have talked about eklavya and shambuka(without going into the 'merits' of each situation) what do you think about the present caste based reservation.It creates new eklavyas and shambukas.It also creates/sustains/hardens identities which make no sense in situations where those identities should not matter at all.Let me hasten to add theres a world beyond reservations.But as more people enter mainstream we need standardisation,record keeping,metrics in tune with present realities.

Have you benefited from sc reservation?whats your thoughts on preferential treatment for say your children?(If you are too young for that,say what would be your views when you face such a situation).

You can reply in the OT thread.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

^^^Saar,
I'll reply, but some other time. It requires a long and detailed post and rightnow I am feeling quite lazy. :D
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

johneeGji,
Please do reply .I think the issue I have raised is an important one.It has a bearing on how our historically weaker sections look at the ideology of Hindutva and their expectations from it and you are rare in openly supporting hindutva/Sanatana Dharma.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by ramana »

Yet the same Sri Rama was accepting of Ahalya who was turned into a rock for infidelity.
And Sita Ma was never accused of that from her abduction by Ravana. In fact Ravana held her by the hair not any part of her body when he abducted her.
Somehow after his marriage He changed his views on the subject. Maybe it was the compulsion of Raja Dhrama that drove his decision. Raja Dharma the king and his family should be above suspicion for social stability.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

JohneeG garu,

I wrote my position on Varna-Kula vyavastha many times. I will post the link so we are repeating old discussions. You can search for caste/varna with my name and you will see many posts mainly in epics,'deracination and off-topic threads. Please read them and we can continue the debate.

There is too much confusion on that because we all tend to use those words interchangeably and it causes lot of unnecessary heartburn in our society. Varna, intentionLly, is made into a divisive factor where as it is an unifying factor in any given society.

I wrote on the logic behid the birth based varna system and why it makes sense to a Hindu consciousness.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by brihaspati »

Why cannot we distinguish between a text and what it is trying to represent? veda the text is not the same as what the veda is trying to convey. Similarly, what Manu the text is saying is not necessarily what it tries to convey.

Manu's text is only as important as it is made out to be. Laws are dependent on interpretation, and most law texts acknowledge this fact by stating so-and-so laws are deshachar/raajana imposed but not "shaastra" sammata. The fact that "custom" or practice of law can differ or deviate from what is thought to be "shaastra" is repeatedly acknowledged in most narratives, epics and even the law-texts. Typically this would take the form - that in "olden times/puraakaale" such-and-such used to take place but then so-and-so changed the laws.

It is a false claim that laws are inimmutable/unchangeable in the "Hindu". My favourite example is that of Uddalaka Aaruni and swetaketu. The son and future rishi saw his mother going away on a date when another man comes and asks her out, and asked his father. The father explains that according to custom - which therefore must be the law of the time - women, among other entities, are free to "roam" and cannot be possessed exclusively by an individual. The son grows up to change the "law" and institute monogamous contractucal marriage.

Now which law was the proper unchangeable shaastra-sammata law? Both could not have been "shaastra" sammata at the same time! "Hinduism" openly therefore leaves plenty of traces - that laws were seen as immutable, and not permanent or revealed and unchangeable.

Manu's text was just one among many different perspectives and codifications followed at different times and regions by the "hindu". It is not true that Manu does not differe much from the other law-texts : for example it is somewhat closer to Baudhyana, but far from Apastambha, and Gautama.

We should not elevate texts to the rank of philosphies. Texts are always limited by the language they are being written in, the restrictions on the mind of the author, the restrictions placed on the understanding of the target audience, the time, place and context of the text.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

The selective stereotypes, stories and laws surrounding "lower" castes and women seem to clearly have served a purpose. For instance Manu's smriti is full of strange stereotypes about women's nature, but very little that clearly outlines what is expected in terms of the nature (not external duties) of a brahmana. The Itihasas and Puranas are the basis of a lot of these stories, stereotypes and moral "warnings" about maryada and lines that ought not to be crossed. And so its always possible for defensive vested interests to come up with sophisticated "moral" and "contextual" arguments about why this or that is necessary and how there is some deep determinism and meaning to it all. I think it is perfectly desirable that all such stories, theories and laws be questioned thoroughly. If the community of people sympathetic to the Vedic traditions do not do it among themselves, then we always have others who will not stop.

Caste and birth-based varna-vyavastha is a moronic "solution" to a stability problem under stressful circumstances. Setting anything to "automatic" and eliminating the conscious human faculties in varna-vyavastha is a solution like putting a moron in charge of controlling a robot. Much of Indic society resembles exactly that. By eliminating faculties and abilities of learning, development, self-reformation, perspicacity and practical applications of measuring ability, observation of lack of aptitude, etc... one has cast the varna system into the whirlpool of the lower nature, not the higher nature.

So I find it strange that people still want to justify caste system instead of spending energy and creativity in figuring out new ways ahead. The reservation quota system is necessary for a few more generations. The reason it isn't working fully to uplift many backward castes into true competence and education and culture is because there are tenuous people-to-people community relationships between the "forward" castes and their backward brethren. OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area. Only an ignorant and stubborn moron refuses to see this and look ahead. If the reservation system is causing takleef to "forward" castes, then they should use their supposedly superior abilities to expand the education system, improve general quality and build capacity - so that more opportunities are available rather than forward and backward castes fighting over limited seats in reputed institutions. Instead, they want to launch a political movement against reservations, and compete with one another to get their kids into convent schools and colleges, and to go to mlechha land for grad school.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

>> OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.

Can you provide evidence for it?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.

Can you provide evidence for it?
If you need "evidence", read any report, including government reports, on Dalit upliftment. E.g. the Backward Classes Commission historical reports. Otherwise you can look around you and actually interact with dalit groups and their leaders. Whether they are Christian or not, they all acknowledge the yeoman service provided by Christian orgs in reaching out to them. This applies to many non-upper caste groups, not just those technically classified as "dalits", "untouchables", etc. Some observations:

I have come across many, many Indian Christians whose ancestors just two or three generations ago were impoverished or unable, and who are now respected professionals, leaders, etc. Many of them relate stories of how they or their fathers went through school on church scholarships. Not only the money, but they were often taken into the homes and chapels of their mentors, who painstakingly instilled new values in them, and coached them through school. Many of them did well enough to then earn public scholarships to take them through college and beyond. They became valuable members of Indian society. I know an Indian Christian who worked on the Prithvi missile project, whose grandfather's generation were basket-weavers living on the edge of a forest in TN. Many examples like that. I noted that in all cases it took about 2 to 4 generations. It started under British rule, or soon after independence.

They themselves then always tend to possess a spirit of charity and evangelical zeal. One such person I know, now a successful ERP professional in the US... his aged father even today comes back from work in India, picks up a lantern and his Bible, gets onto his bicycle, and goes door to door preaching the gospel in a town in AP. This man also runs a charity to feed the widows in his town - this is not just Christian widows, but mainly older Hindu widows who are neglected and even abused. The spirit of charity, sacrifice and brotherhood seems to be the most important meme that lower caste Indian converts to Christianity pick up. Once they climb the socio-economic ladder, they themselves turn into benefactors. I know social workers in India from Christian backgrounds, and they are zealous in their work -- even those of them who don't believe in religion anymore. Their illiterate grandfathers and semi-literate fathers were converts filled with zeal, but they seem to be in a "post-religious" or "agnostic" phase of deracination. But the one thing they believe passionately in is social work and charity - "love thy brother as thy self".

Not unexpectedly, most of their biggest donors, partners and well-wishers are Hindu friends, including those living abroad. I have even seen charity-oriented Hindus who give generously to Christian missionary charities in India! Simply because there is no comparison between them and other groups in that area in terms of their dedication and nurturing consciousness (picture a group of surrendered but very educated Malayali Christian nuns living in Orissa and running a hospital, for example). So there are many, many Hindus who, at an advanced age and having lead a successful life, wish to give in charity. But there are not enough organized Hindu institutions that work at the grassroots level, reaching out to the marginalized and downtrodden for their immediate bodily and mental needs, or working for social justice. Many of those that do tend to be reactive, scared of Christian missionaries or the spread of Naxalism. They are not believers in charity, love and brotherhood for their own sake. But at that age, these genteel and peaceful charity-giving (and conditioned p-sec) Hindus are not looking for that, and even tend to be apologetic about it. So if there isn't a genuinely all-inclusive charitable Hindu institution around, they are quite happy to give to Indian Christian groups, or groups that are not religious but often have Indian Christians as volunteers.

OARN, Indian Christians are also politically more conscious, and unfortunately this can often take them down the path of "Dravidianist" politics, or "dalit movement" politics which is divisive in the bigger picture. Therefore, appreciating the good parts of this social phenomenon, it is necessary to have more sustained, ideologically coherent, pro-active Indic efforts that fulfill these very functions in society. After all, it is the essence of self-purification according to Hindu scripture.

यज्ञ-दान-तपः कर्म न त्याज्यं कार्यमेव तत्
यज्ञो दानं तपश्चैव पावनानि मनीषिणां ||

"Actions based on the performance of sacrifice, charity and penance should never be renounced. They certainly must be enacted continuously. Performance of sacrifice, charity and penance are purifying for those in wisdom."
- Bhagavad Gita 18.5


Thus, the cycle of action is considered complete (and therefore self-voiding) only (a) when its intention is one of making a sacrifice, (b) when its effect on society is one of charity and compensating justice, and (c) when its effect on the doer is one of penance and turning towards God. Otherwise all other actions have not completed the psycho-social loop, or they are shorted by other forces, and thus they generate more karmic burdens, according to Hindu philosophy.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

Carl wrote:>> OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.
:eek: :rotfl:

I have seen this particular theme hinted by you many times in several posts. I can only say that you are off the mark. Education and consequent employment opportunities have played a decisive role in the development and consequent self-confidence of 'backward classes'. The employment opportunities and educational opportunities have been direct result of reservations and acceptance of the Hindu society.

Conversions and missionaries have tried to fish in the troubled waters to catch a prey. Nothing more, nothing less. Their contribution to the development of backward classes is minimal.

I would think that Hindu backward classes(including women) are much more 'liberated' than their counterparts in other religions in India. The irony of conversions is that it supposedly changes the religion but not caste. People from 'backward communities' who converted had to learn a hard lesson that conversion does not mean escape from caste based discrimination.

I have seen you admire many facets of Abrahmic religions and your suggestion that Hindus should reform their religion on those successful lines. I think both the above views are related. And I can only put down your views as biased and/or ignorant.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by vishvak »

Contrasting with hundreds of years of silence over abuse and dehumanization of Romas in Europe, or complete elimination of natives in Australia or for that matter to a large extent in North and South Americas, or inter-continental slavery and so on and on, the so-called minorities (in numbers) in India have been made available comparatively much more freedom by constitution itself to begin with.

In fact, hit jobs on Hindu charities such as Ekal Vidyala, the largest educational initiative in India or on Hindu mutts and seers and confiscation of hundis by laws notwithstanding, Hindu charities have done tremendous work nationwide and world wide. For example, projects by Art of Living (link), by Sathya Sai Baba (link) etc.

Considering that main stream media is silent about dharmik sajjans, Hindus definitely need much more than simple world wide publicity. Hindu charity work should be appreciated and celebrated by everyone in the whole world or may be it is too much to expect, as so-called majority in the world (in numbers) hardly donate to Hindu charities just as Hindus donate to any charity. There is perhaps something incorrect to assume that these kind of majorities of the world will ever appreciate good work done by Hindus but more focus should be on awareness amongst Hindus as well.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.
If we define education as the English defined education of learning english, making materialistic transactions in English and becoming Christian materialistic slaves, then yes the British education and Christianity did really help the (sic) backward castes in independent India.

If we define education as knowing Hindu dharma, living a dharmic life, becoming self-aware and one becoming god-realized then the Christianity and western education system failed miserably for both (sic) backward and (sic) Brahmins and upward castes.

The Hindu education system triumphed in this are by many vs ZERO. Hindu system created many self and god realized souls in all (sic) castes in Bharat, where as Christianity failed to reproduce a single saint (other than Vatican political saints) in past 200 years.

At the same time the western society became the SIC society filled with asuric Varnas.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

Let us see how the exalted Christian dharma is doing when it comes to Varna and Caste.

1. Varna :

The Brahmins of Christianity can come from any back ground. The only qualifications required are unflinching intellectual slavery towards the institution of Christianity, unapologetic harvesting of souls, pedophilia as long as it doesn't become public, sexual exploitation of nuns, embezzlement of church funds and finally unethical intervention into local societies affairs, secularism be damned. Some of the brahmins of Christianity not only defined but encouraged the crusades, holocaust and the religious clans like KKK.

The Kshatriyas of Christianity too can come from any background. But they need to remain loyal to church meddling in geopolitical affairs and ensuring steady supply of Jambie soldiers who do not show any morals or ethics in killing and plundering other states and nations. Invading non-christian societies and Running Abu-Grahib type jails is their speciality.

The Vaisyas of Christianity too can come from any background. All they have to do is to ensure that their shameless exploitation of natural and otherwise resources with no social responsibility or accountability. These folks took the animal husbandry to the next level, where they raise populations of domestic cattle as if they are edible plastic with no respect for life and they shamelessly destroyed any living organism that they find unsuitable for human consumption of economic value.

The Shudras of Christianity demonstrate the foundations of that faith. These jambies life lives larger than their and surrounding ecosystems, indulge in excessive carnal pleasures so their societies get the distinction of highest police, jail, drug addicts, homicides ratios.

2. Caste: it took more than 100 years for the Christian societies to give voting rights to woman, more than 200 years for blacks to get treated equally. Even in 2008, the most influential person on the face of earth, the president of the united states, have to proclaim that he is a Christian even though he was born a Muslim and demonstrate that he was more loyal white than a white.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SaiK »

kept drilling few pages from here and back, but I am not sure you guys are justifying the topic, and all of you are acknowledged and respected and not uncontrollable BRotesque thinkers. why wait to be told? it saves time for the reader and the BReapers, and the place becomes self-BReaped.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

SaiK ji,

I posted that after much contemplation.

Every once in a while we have people coming here and giving lectures on caste discrimination and why it is singularly Hindu concept, as preached by their masters.

I posted my thoughts here so future reader can be directed to this place so we can avoid these circular discussions and how caste and varna are different.

It is getting very Burkha Duttisque when people keep repeating their Christian world view on Hindu concepts of society and life.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

abhishek_sharma wrote:>> OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.

Can you provide evidence for it?
Carl wrote:If you need "evidence", read any report, including government reports, on Dalit upliftment. E.g. the Backward Classes Commission historical reports.
Since you have already read those reports, why don't you provide a link here? Note that they should provide evidence that people who have converted are more "self-confident" and "more cultured".

I have noted that you put the word 'evidence' in quotes.
Otherwise you can look around you and actually interact with dalit groups and their leaders.
Yes, you can "look around" and certainly form opinions about the "culture" of significant number of millions of converted Christians. The evidence gathered from that "looking around" must be foolproof. Wonder-fool. Where did you learn that Lahori logic? In Vatican?

You used the word moron a few times in your post. How ironic.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by SaiK »

RamaY, perhaps you all need a "disambiguation thread".
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

On another forum, I am having to wrestle with someone spreading big time lies about Ramayana being based on the Dasaranya War.

Even though many Gurus here have been doing some tremendous work in uplifting my level of knowledge about our scriptures, I am still very much out of my depths, when I have to answer particular queries like:
1. Who was BALMIKI and where did he live?
2. What is the difference between a Chandal and an Aryan?
3.What was Battle of Ten kings or DASRAJANYA SANGRAM?
4. Is Ramayan a true story? Or was it based on DARAJANYA SANGRAM as mentioned in RigVeda?
5. If RigVeda is later than Ramayana why is there NO reference to it in RAMAYANA of BALMIKI and vice versa, if Ramayan was later than RigVeda?
6. Why is there no mention of river SARASWATI in Ramayan, if it was older than rig Veda.
7. Do you know that RISHI VASHISTA and VISHABMITRA, have their verses in RigVeda and they take sides in BATTLE OF TEN KINGS on the opposing sides. How come they don,t mention anything about Lord Ram and RAVAN?
Now the questions 3 and 6, I can answer. I also know that the Vashishtas were rather a Rishi family, so the reference in various scriptures need not refer to the same Vashishta. About Vishwamitra I am less sure!

This I know from Shrikant Talageri's "The Rigveda - A Historical Analysis"! But that is about it!

Now if any of you would be so kind, could you please stuff this guy "Rajee Kushwaha" back into his snake-hole!

I have argued with on the blog about population genetics, about which I know a bit more, and about the AIT Project, but a discussion on our scriptures is simply a bit over my head!

Fabricating History – 2000 BC
By dmrsekhar

Thank you!
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RamaY »

RajeshAji

I haven't read Veda vangmayamu yet (ordered TTD books), so will write what I understood from there later.

But I came across the Vashistha and Viswamitra rivalry in Devi Bhagavatam. Will write a summary here.

Coming to Ramayana and references, will get back to you.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by member_23629 »

>> OTOH, one clearly sees that backward castes who have converted to Christianity and are educated under the wing of more cultured patrons invariably tend to become more competent, more self-confident, more cultured and often surpass many other castes from their area.
So when are the "more cultured patrons" getting a non-White pope? Or perhaps a female Bishop?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

RamaY wrote:If we define education as the English defined education of learning english, making materialistic transactions in English and becoming Christian materialistic slaves, then yes the British education and Christianity did really help the (sic) backward castes in independent India.

If we define education as knowing Hindu dharma, living a dharmic life, becoming self-aware and one becoming god-realized then the Christianity and western education system failed miserably for both (sic) backward and (sic) Brahmins and upward castes.
You hit the nail on the head. Therefore there is a big need for a more comprehensive, Dharmic solution to the practical problems of life and social justice in India. There is a big space for charitable effort, and a more organized, politically well-connected and inspired movement for educational and other types of Dharmic charities in India. There are many, many Hindus who give or want to give, but the NGO space is dominated by pinkos, missionaries, etc. Their charitable work ethic and methods must be observed and can be emulated, but within a more comprehensive Dharmic framework. Moreover, a lot of Hindu charity goes into temple-building or ashram building, which is not organically connected with modern education. I think this is also problematic.

Is there a past thread on BRF that started to document a list of Indic-based charities, educational organizations, etc.? I was not able to search for one. If it doesn't already exist, let's start putting one together. TIA.

http://www.hinduwebsite.com/links/hindu ... ations.asp
johneeG wrote:Education and consequent employment opportunities have played a decisive role in the development and consequent self-confidence of 'backward classes'. The employment opportunities and educational opportunities have been direct result of reservations and acceptance of the Hindu society.
Sure, but this passive "acceptance" of reservations and spread of education is not what I am referring to. I am suggesting that a more pro-active, inspired, charitable and all-inclusive effort by Dharmic educational and social services movements is necessary. There's a lot of good work out there, but it needs to be given more recognition, and multiplied many times over.
varunkumar wrote:So when are the "more cultured patrons" getting a non-White pope? Or perhaps a female Bishop?
We're setting the bar really low here, and only w.r.t. one set of skills. By "cultured" I only meant capable and competent as per modern standards of education and employment. A lot of people from backward castes across the world don't improve their lot even if exposed to a classroom environment. They truly improve only when they are acculturated to a climate of consistent study and other values in the home environment, or at least in some informal social setting. That's where the important factor of person to person contact and sharing comes into play. That is the thrust of my posts here.

Evanjihadism, leftist networks, etc are a topic that needs to be dissected. Note that while the upper echelon controllers of Evanjihadism or Leftist orgs are sinister, manipulative strategists, the rank and file workers in the field are of the "believer" variety, often making major personal sacrifice and showing great dedication and personal inspiration. Without this rank and file, their higher-ups would never see success in their strategies. This must be recognized, and what is good must be taken and harnessed to a more Dharmic upper echelon plan and strategy. That was my other point.

This second point is politically and morally important. There are definite trends where people serving in a Leftist or even Evangelical political context for many years can sense the hypocrisy of their higher-ups, or can sense the hollowness of their ideology as a whole. I mentioned that I have met several Christian workers who have long been in an agnostic phase. I am also aware of several Leftist activists who are increasingly uncomfortable with the unholy alliance their leaders have with anti-national Islamists and others. They still want to do good work at the grassroots level, but they need a solid, organized and conscientious movement to work within. They need an alternative that is as inclusive, dedicated, and visionary as the ones they have followed so far, and a bit crazy too. :wink: Lastly, this alternative cannot be rejectionist of whatever they have done, even if they were increasing a deracination. Rather, the perspective offered by the Dharmic alternative should show that, willy nilly, their work has been part of a necessary iteration for India as a regenerating civilization. It is now time for them to defect and jump ship onto the next iteration of that progression.

abhishek_sharma ji, are you suggesting that backward castes have seen no personal benefits from association with Christian social service people? If so, then there's nothing to worry about the whole conversions debate. Any gains must be as temporary as a fistful of rice, hmm?
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

abhishek_sharma ji, are you suggesting that backward castes have seen no personal benefits from association with Christian social service people? If so, then there's nothing to worry about the whole conversions debate. Any gains must be as temporary as a fistful of rice, hmm?
So, you don't have evidence, right? :D Good!
Simply because there is no comparison between them and other groups in that area in terms of their dedication and nurturing consciousness (picture a group of surrendered but very educated Malayali Christian nuns living in Orissa and running a hospital, for example).
There is no comparison? Have you seen the work done by R. K. Mission. They provide free education to people from all classes. They also provide free food on many days. (I know because I participated in those programmes.) Unlike some other organizations, their love is less physical.. Unlike some, they don't encourage antisemitism. Did you calculate the effect of sex abuse and antisemitism on the "culture" and "confidence" of converted Christians? Why not?

As far as dedication is concerned, we will see their levels of dedication when conversion is not allowed.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

abhishek_sharma wrote:So, you don't have evidence, right? :D Good!
Eh? I have pointed you to the evidence. Its not my job to spoonfeed you.
abhishek_sharma wrote:There is no comparison? Have you seen the work done by R. K. Mission.
Read my posts fully. I have personally worked with and contributed to RK Mission efforts also. There is a lot of good work out there, but it needs to be given more publicity. And the different efforts need to be networked with one another more and organized better to attract publicity as well as to attract and involve more donors, volunteers, and generate more public sentiment for it.

But note the main thrust of my post. It is not merely about providing "free education" or subsidized education (very important no doubt), but to involve oneself with backward castes at a more personal level. This means that there must be a more widespread feeling of brotherhood ad charity.

In a previous post somewhere I mentioned the case of Turkish Islamist foundations in the US. Their volunteers, mostly graduate students, will take Somali kids under their wing and spend an hour every evening coaching them. they pray together with them. Give them counseling. Keep them out of the wrong company. Instill new aspirations in them. Etc. I have seen cases of Somali sons of street gangsters end up going through college and working in biotech labs.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Carl wrote:Eh? I have pointed you to the evidence. Its not my job to spoonfeed you.
Spoonfeed? :rotfl: Don't overestimate yourself. Why don't you post information on how improvement in "culture" and "confidence" was measured? Post the link here.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

But note the main thrust of my post. It is not merely about providing "free education" or subsidized education (very important no doubt), but to involve oneself with backward castes at a more personal level. This means that there must be a more widespread feeling of brotherhood ad charity.
Yes, when a group provides free education (and food), there is no feeling of brotherhood and charity. It is done in a mechanical way--like a robot.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

^^ The evidence is in terms of the involvement of those orgs. The "competence" and "confidence" part can be "measured" by the fact that they are cited with gratitude by many a dalit leader. Is this making sense to you at all? The rest of my evidence was anecdotal. If you want to continue to be in denial that missionary educational institutions have played a big part in raising the awareness and competence of Indians (not just "backward" classes) for the last 100 years, then I have nothing more to add. That their outreach was grandfathered in by the colonial masters, and later by Western funding is another aspect of the issue. But the fact that their role is prominent is well known. It beats me why you refuse to admit it.

Two points:
1. There must be an organized and motivated Indic effort at capacity building in social service sector, especially educational institutions.
2. This must be organically linked with Dharmic education.

Right now, the first is not strong enough, even tough there is a lot of money going around, and even charitable trusts. But a lot of Hindu charity goes towards temples and ashrams without any link to modern education and research. Take a historical case study - Spanish Catholic versus Protestant colonialism. The former built mighty cathedrals and seminaries. The latter invested in building institutions of learning. The difference in destinies can be seen. We needs to do both, with a focus on learning, because unlike the West, Indic culture has no conflict between "faith and reason".
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Yes, when a group provides free education (and food), there is no feeling of brotherhood and charity. It is done in a mechanical way--like a robot.
Abhi, let's talk after you get over your sense of hurt. Running out of patience here.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Carl wrote:^^ The evidence is in terms of the involvement of those orgs. The "competence" and "confidence" part can be "measured" by the fact that they are cited with gratitude by many a dalit leader. Is this making sense to you at all?
Yes, I was overestimating your evidence. I note that you used the word "many". Nice cop out. I was looking for numbers.

By the way, "competence" is not measured by "gratitude of leaders". It should be measured by how their work actually changes the lives of *all* people under their tutelage. Since you are relatively slow in understanding this simple issue, let me explain this is more detail. Change in competence could be measured by the increase in income after their education/training at a Christian organization. Is this making sense to you at all? Probably not.

Where are those reports you were talking about?

My question also involved how you measure when a person is "more cultured". You forgot to mention it in your inadequate answer. I understand that you don't have evidence for your propaganda.
The rest of my evidence was anecdotal.
:rotfl: I understand. Lahori logic---Vatican ishtyle.
Abhi, let's talk after you get over your sense of hurt.
I am not hurt, sir. Your hypocrisy amazes me. The schools run by Christian organization are a sign of their "dedication", but when R. K. MIssion runs a school for the poor, then it is "not merely about free education". Wow. You are great!
Running out of patience here.
Ditto.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

Just noting down something from Shrikant Talageri's book "The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis"


Rigveda Composers/Hearers:
ViSvAmitras:
Mandala I: 1-11,24-30
Mandala III: 1-35,36.(1-9, 11),37-61,62.(1-15)
Mandala V: 33-34
Mandala IX: 1, 3, 67.(13-15), 70-71, 84, 101.(13-16), 107.(5)
Mandala X: 89-90,104,121, 129-130, 137.(5), 160-161, 177, 183-184, 190, Jointly with ANgirases: 107

VasiSThas:
Mandala I: 65-73
Mandala V: 29
Mandala VII: 1-100,103-104, Jointly with ANgirases: 101-102
Mandala VIII: Jointly with ANgirases: 87
Mandala IX: 90, Jointly with ANgirases: 67.(22-32)
Mandala X: 20-29,38, 65-66,73-74, 83-84, 86, 95, 99, 103, 119, 122, 137.(7), 147,150, 180, 181.(1), Jointly with ANgirases: 96
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by Agnimitra »

abhishek_sharma wrote:The schools run by Christian organization are a sign of their "dedication", but when R. K. MIssion runs a school for the poor, then it is "not merely about free education". Wow.
Sigh. People who peddle bad faith can only misunderstand.
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by johneeG »

Rajesh ji,

I don't know correctly, so I'll tell what I 'know' to the best of my knowledge. You can rectify my mistakes.

At the outset, I think the commie-colonials use 'Dasarajanya war' as a model for AIT concept. It is presented as a war between Aryans and others. The Rig Veda is 'accepted' by the commie-colonials as the oldest Veda. They postulate that the 'other' Vedas are later developments. Atharvana Veda is presented as a very recent innovation. The Vedanta or Upanishads are depicted as much more recent developments and reactions to Buddhism. Adi Shankara is accused of being a crypto-Buddha.

So, they think that Rig Veda is the oldest.

They postulate that Mahabharatha was a re-make of the old classic 'Dasarajanya' from Rig Veda. That means, Mahabharatha war is actually 'Dasarajanya' war, according to them.

Ramayana is a story much later than Rig Veda. Colonial-commie accept also this. But, since they postulate that Mahabharatha war is actually 'Dasarajanya' war, they conclude that Mahabharatha story is older than Ramayana story.

By the questions you posed, there seems to be some confusion in the mind of your opponent. He does not seem to know the commie-colonials propose that Mahabharatha(and not Ramayana) is based on 'Dasarajanya'. Or maybe I am wrong. Either way, it is better to get this thing cleared first.

The traditional view is that Mahabharatha contains many stories that precede Ramayana, for example Nala-Damayanti. But, the main story of Pandavas is much later than Ramayana. Neither Ramayana nor Mahabharatha are about Dasarajanya war.
RajeshA wrote:
1. Who was BALMIKI and where did he live?
There seem to be lot of claims on Valmiki's caste. He is claimed as a kirata(hunter), or Ratnakara Brahmin or whatever. It is understandable that people want to claim relation with a great celebrity.

The following is what I have learnt from discourses of scholars(Malladi Chandrashekhara Shastri & Chaganti Koteshwara Rao) in telugu:
In Skandha Purana, Vyasa asks Sanath Kumara about Valmiki's origins and wishes to know how he was able to author an epic like Ramayana. Then, Sanath Kumara narrates the following:
Valmiki belonged to Bhrigu Vamsham of Pracheta Ganam. His Gotra is unclear to me: Bhardhvajasa Gotra or Bhargavasa Gotra.

His actual name was Agni Sharma. His father's name is Sumati and mother is Kaushiki. His father conducted upanayana (thread ceremony) of Agni Sharma and attempted to teach Vedas. Agni Sharma, however, did not show the requisite aptitude and fared badly.

Time passed... Agni Sharma was married & had a son.

Once upon a time, there was great famine in their place and they found it very difficult to satisfy their daily needs. So, Agni Sharma along with his family and parents went to jungle. They constructed a housing for themselves in the forest and lived on the forest produce.

The forest was infested with highway robbers. Agni Sharma, over the course of time, befriended them. And he also started robbing the travelers traveling through the forest. At one such time, he encountered Saptharishis who were traveling through the forest. Agni Sharma shamelessly tried to rob them too, of their deer skins and Kamandalas.

Atri Maharishi, one of the 7 Rishis, asked Agni Sharma, why he was resorting to such a violent vocation. Agni Sharma replied that his primary concern was to fulfill the needs of his family and for that he did whatever he had to do. Atri asked him if his family, which shared his material earnings, would also share the associated sins.

The strange query piqued his curiosity. So, he went to his family to know the answer. His family told him in no uncertain terms that it was his duty to provide them livelihood, how he did that was his business. They told him that they cannot be blamed for the sins committed by him. Stung by this reply, Agni Sharma returned and found the 7 rishis still waiting.

He asked them a way to atone for his sins. Atri Maharshi gave him a mantra and told him to practice it diligently. The rishis went away. Agni Sharma promptly sat down under a certain tree in the forest and started the practice of Mantra.

He continued the practiced diligently, completely absent-minded to all the outside happenings. After 12yrs, the 7 Rishis came to that place and witnessed him engrossed in Tapas. His body was covered with mud like ant-hills. They called out to him as 'Valmiki'. 'Valmikam' means a mole-hill/ant-hill.

Agni Sharma rose from Tapas and sought the blessings of the 7 rishis. They blessed him and advised him to repair to a place named Kushasthali on the banks of Ganga for further Tapas. He did as they ordered. He established a Shiva Linga which is called 'Valmikeshwara' on the bank of Ganga. And ardently worshiped Lord Shiva for a long time.

Finally, Lord Shiva manifested and blessed him. Lord Shiva reaffirmed the title of Valmiki. The Lord declared that he would go on to author an extra-ordinary epic based on Lord Vishnu.

After that, Valmiki traveled several places performing Tapas. He spent some time at Chitrakuta. Finally, he came to the banks of Tamasa river. Tamasa is a tributary of Ganga.

He had established his ashram(hermitage) near the Tamasa and Ganga.


From Valmiki Ramayana:
Sri Rama defeated Ravana and established Vibhishana as the sovereign of Lanka. After that, Rama returned to Ayodhya where He was duly coronated. Sri Rama ruled Khoshala with Ayodhya as capital for several years.

Once upon a time, Sri Rama was informed in a private advisory council that certain sections of populace of Ayodhya did not favour Rama's relationship with Sita because She had spent 1yr under the confinement of Ravana who was a notorious womanizer. Sita was pregnant at the time.

Respecting the public sentiment, Sri Rama ordered Lakshmana to abandon Sita on the bank of Ganga near Valmiki hermitage. Lakshmana reluctantly followed the order. Sita Amma was not aware of this situation. She assumed that Her trip to the forest was a short amusement tour.

She came to know of the Rama's decision and people's opinion on the bank of Ganga. Lakshmana informed Her while lamenting that he was helpless in this matter. Lakshmana left Sita Amma on Ganga bank and returned to Ayodhya.

Sita fainted due to sorrow. She was spotted by the Valmiki whose hermitage was near. He recognized Her and offered his ashram as the place of residence for Her. She accepted the offer.

Twins were born to Sita in Valmiki hermitage. They were named by Valmiki as Lava and Kusha. As time passed, Valmiki was also their teacher.

Once upon a time, Narada Maharshi visited Valmiki's hermitage. Valmiki received Narada with due regard and asked him a doubt.

Valmiki enlisted 16 qualities and asked whether there existed any personality on the earth who possessed all the 16 qualities.

kaH nu asmin sa.mpratam loke guNavaan kaH ca viiryavaan |
dharmaj~naH ca kR^itaj~naH ca satya vaakyo dhR^iDha vrataH || 1-1-2
caaritreNa ca ko yuktaH sa.rva bhUteSu ko hitaH |
vidvaan kaH kaH samarthaH ca kaH ca eka priya darshanaH || 1-1-3
aatmavaan ko jita krodho dyutimaan kaH anasuuyakaH |
kasya bibhyati devaaH ca jaata roSasya sa.myuge || 1-1-4

16 qualities are:
01) Gunavaan (possessed of good qualities),
02) Viyavaan (courageous),
03) Dharmajnah (knower of Dharmas),
04) Kritajnah (person with gratitude),
05) Satya vakyo (speaker of Truth),
06) Dridha vratha (committed/determined in his will/deed),
07) Charitra (good Character),
08) Sarva bhuteshu ko hitah (one who is intent on doing good to all beings),
09) Vidvaan (scholar),
10) Samartah (qualified/eligible or one with ability),
11) Eka Priya Darshanah (uniquely handsome),
12) Aatmavan (self-controlled),
13) Jitha krodho (one who has conqured Anger),
14) Dhyutimaan (Radiant),
15) Anaasuuyakah (One who does not find false fauts in others),
16) kasya bibhyati devaah ca jaata rosasya samyuge (One who is feared by even the Gods when His ire is provoked).

Narada replied that Sri Rama of Ikshvaku, ruler of Ayodhya, has all these qualities and more. Narada briefly outlines entire biography of Rama. Then, Narada left.

Valmiki is very impressed by Rama's character and keeps reminiscing about Him. His mind becomes tranquil and he is very happy. He looks at the nature and is filled with joy. He sees a bird couple that are playing with each other. He cheerfully looks at their chirpy play. Suddenly, an arrow hits the male bird. The male bird dies. The female bird cries horrified. Her lamentations evoke pity of Valmiki. Valmiki searches for the one who issued the arrow. He finds a hunter. Promptly, Valmiki curses the hunter.

maa nishhaada pratiSThaamtva | magamaH shaashvatiiH samaaH |
yat krau~Ncha mithunaat eka | mavadhiiH kaama mohitam || 1-2-15

This is the curse of Valmiki. Valmiki, himself, is amazed at the qualities of this stanza that he uttered as a curse. Eg: this stanza has chanda(meter).

Anyway, he retires to his hermitage. The people of Hermitage learn the stanza and tune it to the musical instruments.

Then, Lord Brahma manifests at Valmiki hermitage. Valmiki welcomes Lord Brahma. The Lord tells him that he will author an epic named Ramayana on the life of Sri Rama. That epic, Lord says, will be celebrated till mountains, rivers and woods exist on earth.

The curse of Valmiki is the beginning of Ramayana. Then, Valmiki composes Ramayana. It consists of 7 Units(Kaandas). They are:
1) Bala Kaanda (Youthful Unit),
2) Ayodhya Kaanda
3) Aranya Kaanda (Forest Unit),
4) Kishkinda Kaanda
5) Sundara Kaanda (Beauty Unit),
6) Yuddha Kaanda (War Unit),
7) Uttara Kaanda (Sequel/Answer Unit).

It consists of 24,000 verses.

Valmiki taught Ramayana to his disciples Lava and Kusha(who are also the sons of Sri Rama). Lava and Kusha propagate Ramayana by melodiously singing it wherever people gathered. Once Lord Rama listens to it while they are singing it at a crossroads. Rama invites them to His palace to sing the Ramayana, so that royal family could also listen.

Lava and Kusha start narrating Ramayana...
So, starts the main story of Ramayana.

Veda vedye pare pumsi jate Dasarta Atmaje
Vedaha prachetasat asit sakshat Ramayanatmanaha.

The above is a very famous shloka on Ramayana. I don't know its source.

Here, prachetasat refers to Valmiki.
RajeshA wrote: 2. What is the difference between a Chandal and an Aryan?
Aryan = gentleman.

Chandal = dog-meat eater and/or one working in crematorium.

In Ramayana, Trishanku(ancestor of Rama) is cursed by Vasishta's sons(or Vasishta) to become a Chandala.

The chandala supposedly wears ornaments of Iron instead of precious metals.
RajeshA wrote: 4. Is Ramayan a true story? Or was it based on DARAJANYA SANGRAM as mentioned in RigVeda?
No, Ramayana is not based on Dasarajanya War. Neither the commie-colonial 'eminent intellectuals' nor traditional scholars claim so.

Ramayana is termed as Itihaasa.
Iti = thus,
ha + asam= truly + occurred.

Ramayana & Mahabharatha are classified as ITI-HA-ASAM.The Ha in the middle denotes truly,verily,surely. Thus, Itihasa is a record of facts without any admixture of conjectural matters. It happened at the time it was written or it was written at the same time as it happened. Unlike, other creeds, the authors of Ramayana and Mahabharatha were contemporaries of the events. In most other creeds, the 'biographies' are created much time after the events(like 100 or 200 yrs minimum).

Commie-colonial view on this changes according to convenience.

Sometimes, they present Ramayana also as AIT(i.e. real events), where Rama is supposed to be an Aryan and Ravana is supposed to be a Dravidian. Forgetting that Rama is presented by Valmiki as dark in complexion contradicting the AIT(where Aryans are supposed to be fair skinned europeans, while Dravidians are supposed to be dark-skinned locals). Also, Ravana is presented by Valmiki as well versed in Vedas while AIT proposes that Vedas are Brahmincal (Aryan) texts while Dravidians supposedly followed a non-Brahminical (non-Aryan) religion. What really shatters commie-colonial AIT theory on Ramayana is genealogy of Ravana. Ravana is presented by Valmiki as a direct descendent(second grand-son) of Pulatsya Prajapati (who was created by Lord Brahma Himself). So, some times Ravana is called Ravana-Brahma. It means, Ravana was a Brahmin from his father's side. In fact, Ramayana's another name is 'Paulatsya Vadha' or death of descendent of Pulatsya.

Sometimes, colonial-commie say that Ramayana is nothing more than fiction.

Some other times, the position is subtler. They claim certain parts of Valmiki Ramayana as later interpolations(and hence untrue) and certain parts depict real events(AIT). Generally, Bala Kaanda and Uttara Kaanda are called later interpolations by them. Because, the genealogy of Rama and Ravana are presented in these two Kaandas. Also, Rama is presented as Lord Vishnu Himself in these two Kaandas. So, commie-colonials reject them. In fact, they reject any portion that is against their theories.

They keep changing the goal-post according to their convenience. Sometimes, they present Aryans as Brahmins(i.e. caste-based group) and sometimes as North-Indians(i.e. regional group). In short, they are only interested in furthering a bogus theory using any and every opportunity. They twist and spin episodes in Ramayana, Mahabharatha and even Vedas to suit their agenda. They reject any episodes that contradict their agenda as 'later interpolations'.
RajeshA wrote: 5. If RigVeda is later than Ramayana why is there NO reference to it in RAMAYANA of BALMIKI and vice versa, if Ramayan was later than RigVeda?
As far as I know, Rig Veda is universally accepted as older than Ramayana. Even commie-colonials accept Rig Veda as older than Ramayana. Ramayana does contain references to Rig Veda.

I think your opponent is confused. The commie-colonials postulate that Atharvana Veda (not Rig Veda) is a recent addition. So, Atharvana Veda is newer than Ramayana according to them. The claim is that Ramayana does not contain any reference to Atharvana Veda, so it must be newer.

Of course, the traditional view is that Vyasa(much later figure than Ramayana) edited the Vedas into their present form and categorized them into 4 groups: Rig, Sama, Yajur and Atharvana.
Before this categorization, the Vedas were knowns as 'trayi'(or triad: Rig, Sama, Yajur) based on the types of Mantras.

RajeshA wrote: 6. Why is there no mention of river SARASWATI in Ramayan, if it was older than rig Veda.

I just googled it. And lo, I found that Saraswati River is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana.
nadiim bhaagiirathiim ramyaam sarayuum kaushikiim tathaa || 4-40-20
kaali.ndiim yamunaam ramyaam yaamunam ca mahaagirim |
sarasvatiim ca si.ndhum ca shoNam maNi nibha udakam || 4-40-21
mahiim kaalamahiim caiva shaila kaanana shobhitaam |
brahmamaalaan videhaan ca maalavaan kaashi kosalaan || 4-40-22
maagadhaam ca mahaagraamaan puNDraan a.ngaam tathaiva ca |
bhuumim ca koshakaaraaNaam bhuumim ca rajata aakaraam || 4-40-23

"Search shall be conducted at the riversides of heartening rivers like River Bhaagiirathi, another name for River Ganga, and River Sarayu, like that at River Kaushiki, and at the pleasing surrounds of River Yamuna, and on Mt. Kalinda, as well at River Saraswati, River Sindhu and at the river whose waters are lustrous like gems, namely River Shona, and further at River Mahi and River Kaalamahi which rivers are brightened by mountains and forests surrounding them. And the kingdoms like Brahmamaala, Videha, Maalva, Kaashi, and Kosala, and in Maagadha, which kingdom has grand villages, and in that way, also in the kingdoms of Pundra and Anga, and in the countries of the kings called Koshakaara, and in the provinces of silver mines search is to be conducted. [4-40-20b, 21, 22, 23]
http://www.valmikiramayan.net/kishkindh ... _frame.htm

Maybe this shloka will also be called 'interpolation' by the commie-colonials.
RajeshA wrote: 7. Do you know that RISHI VASHISTA and VISHABMITRA, have their verses in RigVeda and they take sides in BATTLE OF TEN KINGS on the opposing sides. How come they don,t mention anything about Lord Ram and RAVAN?

Rig Veda does not mention Ramayana because Rig Veda happened before Ramayana.

Vishwamitra is the 'drshta'(seer) of 'Gayatri Mahamantra'. So, it is natural that he is a Vedic Rishi(Seer).

Ramayana contains the rivalry of Vasishta and Vishwamitra. Vishwamitra is a king of a certain country and Vasishta is a Brahma-Rishi living in a hermitage. Once upon a time, Vishwamitra happens to be camping near the hermitage of Vasishta along with his army and large retinue. Vasishta invites the King along with his company for a dinner/lunch so as to honour the guest(Athithi Seva).

Vishwamitra declines the invitation citing that Vasishta's humble hermitage was incapable of providing food for his large company. Vasishta insists. Vishwamitra accepts the invitation reluctantly.

Vasishta happens to own a divine/special cow named Shabala. This Shabala is able to produce large amounts of all types of food items for the vast guest list. Everyone has a great party. Vishwamitra is amazed at the powers of Shabala and covets it. He offers to buy Shabala from Vasishta. Vasishta refuses and says that Shabala is essential in maintenance of the hermitage and that Shabala is like a family-member. Vishwamitra threatens Vasishta with his royal power. Vasishta refuses to budge.

Then, Vishwamitra tries to forcefully seize Shabala. At this injustice, Shabala produces several kinds of warriors from its body parts. These warriors start a battle with the army of Vishwamitra. The army of Vishwamitra is defeated. Vishwamitra is dejected by this turn of events and resolves to earn power to defeat Vasishta. He, promptly, coronates his son and retires to Tapasya at Himalayas.

After some time, Lord Shiva manifests pleased with Vishwamitra's tapasya. Vishwamitra asks for the comprehensive knowledge about all kinds of weaponry(along with their usage). Lord grants the same. Armed with this power, Vishwamitra attacks the hermitage of Vasishta. Vasishta defends himself and his hermitage merely with the power of his Brahma-danda.

Vishwamitra is dejected and makes up his mind to achieve the power of 'Brahmam' just like Vasishta. He again goes to Tapasya. After a prolonged Tapasya, Vishwamitra finally achieves the stature of 'Brahma-Rishi'. But before that, he suffered set-backs several times in course of his Tapasya which resulted in loss of his Tapas-shakti.

He was lured by Menaka with whom he had a girl child named Shakuntala. Later, Shakuntala married Dushyanta and gave birth to a son named Bharatha. Bharatha is the famous emperor of Bharathavamsha.

Later, he tried to send Trishanku(King of Ikshvaku) to heaven along with his earthly body. The attempt failed. So, a new heaven was created to accommodate Trishanku. Trishanku is an ancestor of Rama. There is long time period between Trishanku and Rama. And all this time, Vishwamitra and Vasishta are alive. The only conclusion is that Vishwamitra and Vasishta have much longer life-times than others.

Vishwamitra curses the sons of Vasishta. He curses his own sons also. He cursed many times earning a (dis)reputation.

Finally, he succeeded in becoming a 'Brahma-rishi'. In this long journey, he evolved into a calmer, mature, knowledgable seer.

I don't know how dasarajanya war is related to Ramayana. Possibly, the fight between the warriors created by the cow Shabala and Vishwamitra's fight may be portrayed by the commie-colonials as inspired from dasarajanya war
RajeshA wrote: Now the questions 3 and 6, I can answer. I also know that the Vashishtas were rather a Rishi family, so the reference in various scriptures need not refer to the same Vashishta. About Vishwamitra I am less sure!
Maybe Vashishtas were a Rishi family, I don't know. But, I think Vasishta was one personality with long life-time. I think Vasishta was re-born once. He was the teacher(Kula-Guru) of long line of Kings of Ikshvaku(including Sri Rama). His son is Shakti, whose son is Parashara and whose son is Vyasa whose son is Shuka. Shuka had no progeny or sexual contact. In fact, it is said that he didn't even register gender differences and hence roamed naked.
Last edited by johneeG on 27 Aug 2012 21:13, edited 3 times in total.
svenkat
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by svenkat »

Carlji,
I do not know whether your harsh remarks in your first post was directed at me about 'morons fighting reservation system'.

Whether I like it or not,no one can stop the reveolution taking place.For the record I like it and support it.But standardisation is essential and handing out seats in top notch institutions arbitrarily makes no sense.

Coming from TN,I know that everyone calls themselves backward when they are not.Similarly johneeGji is no 'dalit'.The clamour for being backward and dalit should go.People are rising,becoming more affluent,more literate,more aware by modern standards.This should be reflected in the public debate rather than the rheoric about poverty and backwardness.

Hindu society needs backward and dalit leaders challenging the present rigidness about backwardness and dalitness.The confidence,education,optimism about the future should be reflected in the polity and planning so that the efforts at removing poverty/ignorance can be more focussed.

I am not the least interest in 'fighting over a few seats'.Thats a relic of the colonial past.You should know that in TN and KA,reservation provided the impetus for private enginnering colleges.But they have hit a plateau.Standardisation,fair competition,equality are not against prosperity,more and better opportunities.

We need a debate on all levels at full participation of erstwhile dalits,backwards in our sociey.feigning backwardness is sign of lack of trust in our interwined destinies.If backwards,dalits think in narrow identities will it not affect society.When sky is the limit,why stop one self.I am least interested in perpetuating colonial or even earlier hierarchy.Its not funny when pseudo-kshatriyas pretend kshatriyahood/brahmanatva and victimhood at the same time.
RajeshA
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Re: Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

Post by RajeshA »

johneeG ji,

many many thanks for your effort to clarify! It was engrossing reading!
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