PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 09 Mar 2013 20:14

Russian Air Force to receive 5 generation fighter in 2015-2016 - Rogozin

The Russian Air Force will start receiving the prospective airborne complex of frontline aviation (PAK FA), known also as the Russian fifth-generation fighter, in 2015-2016, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said.

"We have flying prototypes, which can so far be called the first-generation PAK FA. There was a long-range flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur to Zhukovsky outside Moscow recently. This is already reality," Rogozin said.

The fighter will acquire "special superiority qualities when a new engine is launched," he said.

"The main work is concentrated now on the engine and weapons. We expect supplies to start in 2015-2016," Rogozin said.

It was reported earlier that the construction of the fifth-generation fighter is part of a program for rearming the Russian armed forces.

Specialists are of the view that the Russian fifth-generation fighter developed by the Sukhoi company is fully meeting the planned performance parameters during the ongoing flight tests.

Compared to fighters of previous generations, the PAK FA boasts a number of unique features, combining the functions as an attack plane and a fighter.

The aircraft has an unusually low level of radar, optical, and infrared visibility, which should significantly improve its combat efficiency in attacking both aerial and ground-based targets at any time of day and in any weather, according to its designers.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Mar 2013 22:09

nice marketing i guess.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Mar 2013 06:47

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Mar 2013 10:51

nice, hope they can flatten the inlets more on the horizontal plane.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Mar 2013 22:27

came across this video , the interesting thing is some anti-radar material under development at 7:19 and some LO works in other areas

http://youtu.be/dvoSi5BMoR0

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Mar 2013 23:57

Take Off Magazine April 2013 issue

http://en.take-off.ru/pdf_to/to26.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Mar 2013 17:56

T-50-3 recently seen , looks more polished perhaps fresh paint

http://russianplanes.net/id102027
http://russianplanes.net/id101989
http://russianplanes.net/id101979
http://russianplanes.net/id101943

The nozzle are very much non-aligned compared to intake , a Su-30 gives a good idea of what an aligned nozzle viz a viz intake

Wonder how the engine gets enough air with such non-aligned intake specially during low speed high AOA , Starvation of air due to high AOA is something they would have taken care off but wonder how , like the use of compressor/air turbine to suck in more air into the engine fitted internally ?

The Berkut which uses S Duct solution for blocking Engine direct exposure still have a very alligned air intake viz a viz its engine

http://mojmirvanek.webzdarma.cz/S37/S37-5.jpg
http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/ ... kut_l2.jpg

Mig-1.42 also has some kind of S-Duct solution

http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/ram/mfi-i42-1.jpg
http://www.military-today.com/aircraft/ ... mfi_l3.jpg

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Mar 2013 19:00

what is not still emphatic is pak-fa s-duct. there is no live picture says it is an S. So, till then we have to assume some kind of super hornet type of radar blocker/diverter.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Mar 2013 20:21

PAK-FA has no S-Duct , Sukhoi has experience of S-Duct via Berkut program and even the Mig-1.44 used S-Duct though a partial one though I am not sure what solution Mig came up with then , it appears , PAK-FA has different solution looking at the non-alligned engine wrt to intakes and most certainly it will use blockers , BTW even the X-32 never had S-duct but preferred using Blocker , S ducts is a solution of 80's as they end up taking space internally and starve engine of air during high AOA though its a simpler and proven way to block direct engine/blade exposure

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Mar 2013 20:48

my theory is this, and a tech community can definitely build one if they can achieve internal stealth characteristics, and external shapes are purely based on aerodynamics, and the skins are totally permeable to radar waves.. wherever structural strengthening frames are used can be designed such that each frame is angle shaped to deflect., and all LRUs, internal components, parts, can be shaped similarly, or covered with thin enough foil deflector casings or protectors if we can say. so, weightless, full aerodynamics, permeating skins, and super stealth. this would be a generation ahead than f-22

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 23 Mar 2013 21:39

Data point:

New Design For Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

“Let's be clear: the HAL-Sukhoi program isn't a joint effort,” says an air force officer with Bengaluru-based Training Command. “The airframe will be identical to the ones the Russians currently have in flight-test. Our decision to go with a single-seat configuration is principally to avoid potential time overruns that will almost certainly be part of designing such a configuration. The maximum that HAL will do is insert a few systems of our choice and play lead integrator for the 'MKI,' if you will,” he says, alluding to the MKI version of the two-seat Su-30 developed by Sukhoi for India.

On to the AMCA.

I never thought the FGFA would be such a dud from gaining experience PoV.

They should reduce the numbers even further. Not worth the $35 billion - if that figure still stands.

vic · Post by **vic** » 23 Mar 2013 22:40

PAKFA is a typical example of bait and switch. First we were given a lie about 50% partnership, now willing babus and brass; on one pretext or another are turning it into a simple license production like Su-30MKI.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Mar 2013 22:44

what does he mean by time overrun? what data point he is pointing to?

was it the fault of HAL/ADA or it was Sukhoi. One has to be very careful spewing out opinion in public, as it matters whatever the position the gentleman may hold. it is in the program logistics based on maturity and capability, that drives a definitive and deterministic equations regarding time overruns. No projects ever (R&D) has been perfectly timed delivery as one would do an operational project/program or mission.

the affsar is totally wrong in his analysis.. he is just an user. period.

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 24 Mar 2013 10:46

if the so called joint venture would result into screw driver tech, i wont be surprised.
in AI 2013 at the HAL stand, i asked them as to what exactly is their work share in the whole FGFA program, and the person there was saying its top secret stuff and upon insisting more, the gentleman was trying to bulls**t me by saying HAL is developing subsystems and engines. wasnt HAL's engine development division closed and GTRE born? this is the sorry state of affairs as seen by me.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Mar 2013 20:24

all these points to bad charter we have established ahead. pure and simple program management bungle up. it all starts from the so called elite who can cream up any firang philosophy and pay structure, but has no brains to develop home grown solutions... and takes a blame gaming approach all pointing to basic core political structure. so, what.. why not do the same politics, but keep the mission and program objectives in sync? do we have patriots/citizens living in India or is it filled with MUTUs, MPTPs, pakis and chippanda suckers?

yes.. it is a paltry $30 billion onlee.. whose money is it anyway?.. since, I am not paid well, i don't care attitude. blame the other, and forget about it while the firangies enjoy the investment to their whims and fancies. Jesus/Krishna/AoA!, even the French attitude after winning the order is pathetic.. why are we still sleeping?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Mar 2013 03:04

Page 17 (of pdf) :: TO SEE FIRST MEANS TO WIN

It is an open secret that the AESA radar we are developing to fit the PAK FA will serve the basis for development of the radar system of the Russian-Indian PMF fifth-generation fighter. Tikhomirov-NIIP has been selected as prime contractor for the radar to fit the PMF. The Indians are supposed to develop and manufacture some of the subsystems of the fighter’s radar system, with specific subsystems being discussed now. Last year, there was a review of the draft design of the aircraft and, hence, our part of it – the AESA radar. Next on the agenda is the signature of a contract for the development work. As soon as the contract is signed, the development of the AESA radar system for the Perspective Multirole Fighter will shift into high gear.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 25 Mar 2013 06:14

NRao wrote:
On to the AMCA.

I never thought the FGFA would be such a dud from gaining experience PoV.

They should reduce the numbers even further. Not worth the $35 billion - if that figure still stands.

First of all, you marked the wrong part:

Let's be clear: the HAL-Sukhoi program isn't a joint effort,” says an air force officer with Bengaluru-based Training Command.

Do you really expect, that an (unnamed) officer of a training command has any insight of the FGFA program at this point? Even if that quote would be from that officer, it only would show his opinion of what he heared or saw so far, which hardly might be more than us publically known anyway.

On the other side we have heared this just recently:

On Defence Research and Development Organisation's proposed Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) project, Browne said it was "too early" to talk about the plane being a fifth-generation one.

"When all requirements are firmed up, then we will see what technologies are possible and what are not possible. Then you put it in that bracket," he said.

http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... inductions

Which is a reality check for DRDO/ADA and all those that dream about an indigenous 5th generation fighter anytime soon and that directly from the highest IAF official!

There is a reason why we went for the FGFA development, because we are not even close to develop a 5th gen fighter. It's naiv (mainly from DRDO), to dream about a NG fighter, when their current generation fighter and tech developments struggle or even failed. They should provide 4th generation capabilities now and think about how to do the next step and increase the indigenous content in those foreign fighters, that we will operate for the next 3 decades (MKI, Rafale, Mig 29K). That would be more helpful for the forces and more realistic according to their capabilities, but they often have different aims then our forces.

A bit old, but still is true:

Admiral Arun Prakash on DRDO, Obsolesence and Self-Reliance

Sunday, April 22, 2007

...An inherent conflict of interest arises from the fact that the DRDO tends to devote much greater resources to technology development and demonstration than to the urgent operational needs of the armed forces. This has often resulted in a mismatch between our critical needs and the priorities of DRDO; driving us towards the import option. There is obviously a need for much better alignment between the aims and objectives of DRDO and the operational missions of the armed forces...

http://livefist.blogspot.de/2007/04/adm ... -drdo.html

Secondly, the decision not to go for twin seaters as initially planned is a major blow for HAL and the Indian content of the development. It might have been made for cost or time reasons, but rejects the R&D part where HAL actually should have been a part of.
If this decision would have been taken from the start, we could have saved a lot of time and already would be involved in the R&D, or even the testing stage of our version, which again shows the lack of project planning and management capabilities of us.
The money however is still more than well spend, because it offers IAF one of the best NG fighters, with a lot of new and advanced techs, that we wouldn't be able to develop on our own. While it still offers us the chance to participate in all fields, where we have gained some know how so far (materials, coatings, avionics, cockpit layout, EW and sooner or later also own weapons).
Capabilitywise there shouldn't be any doubt that the FGFA will be more capable than AMCA anyway, which again shows why FGFA is the most important project for IAF, next to the coming drones, while AMCA should be developed for IN and as a carrier fighter, instead of wasting time and money on N-LCA.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 25 Mar 2013 06:21

@ Austin

Do you have any infos about an Indian participation in the NG engine development for Pak Fa / FGFA? There were reports in the past, that Russia wants to co-develop it (obviously to get some funds from us), but is it a co-development now and are any Indian companies involved?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Mar 2013 07:09

Austin,

Yes. The answer to your first question. And why not? All he said was "isn't a joint effort" - we can sitting outside get the same vibs. (The MTA, engines, etc - Russia is using India as a financier.) After all the FGFA (PMF????) has gone down hill from the start - which is my point. NOT that the FGFA is a bad plane - it will be great. But, the vision we had has dried up for the most part. Will the IAF be happy - I think so, I hope so. BUT, for the proposed INVESTMENT I do not think India is getting her monies worth. The FGFA WAS far greater than the IAF getting a great plane. In this deal the Russians are getting FAR more than India is getting out of it for the $$ India is paying.

Your response is typical of a Russo-phile (which is what you have highlighted)(that is a very old argument - and stale now). In THIS discussion - if you can - please stick to where the FGFA dream was and where it is now.

On the AMCA, sure it will be task. No two ways about that, but my feel is that it will happen - and I bet the Russians will be the first to try and prevent it. My feel is that it is the tincan vs. Arjun battle all over again. Specially now that they will earn far less from the FGFA deal.

On DRDO/HAL, they are doing just fine. Yes, they may have some warts, but even then they will come out ahead. We can say what we want and point to articles, etc, but the time has come when multiple forces will force some issues that none of us can stop. IF there is a critical mass - and I am betting that there - this old fashioned DRDO/HAl will do well. They themselves will have no options but to do well.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Mar 2013 07:16

Secondly, the decision not to go for twin seaters as initially planned is a major blow for HAL and the Indian content of the development. It might have been made for cost or time reasons, but rejects the R&D part where HAL actually should have been a part of.

Says who exactly?

Russo-phile leanings?

If it is for economic reasons then it cannot be because of a lack of R&D. IF R&D then it cannot be for a lack of economics.

The man stated it is for time/cost. Why do you introduce a dimension that will lead to more discontent when we have no data points wRT to the FGFA?

Which is why I have always stated that the AMCA will be THE statement India will make. Not even the LCA. (only if India had an engine. Sigh.)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 25 Mar 2013 07:58

even if HAL got to do a 2 -seater - think about it - 4 protos are flying , the design/specs of airframe, materials, engines, radars is nearly frozen and HALs role would be nothing in these areas except maybe running the flight test program in India.

whatever "gains" hoped to accrue in manufacturing tech will accrue / not accrue for license making the 1-seater as well. eventually similar total number will get built.

India needs to stop looking for crutches, short cuts and "cheat sheets" and get serious about AMCA instead of bleating about how some magical "TOT" from rafale or PAKFA will help us bridge the digital divide.

its our own choice - keep whining and following someone else's moves, unfairness of the Rus/Fr or make a serious attempt now.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 25 Mar 2013 08:03

^^I agree. Most of the R&D is going to have to come from our end. We have to let the private sector take over some of the DPSUs and compete. We also need to create a competitive and research oriented university model so that we can get more quality talent. Even if we get some tech from abroad we will still lack the architecture to develop new technology which will help us catch up to ans surpass the Asian giants and the West.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 25 Mar 2013 08:47

When people say, we need to satisfy operational requirements, the ones like pak-fa and amca is for the future operational requirement and not the current. LCA perfectly fits the current operational requirements, more so from the Mk-2 model on-wards, perhaps an LCA Mk3 with a twin engine approach will beat the crap out of any MMRCA out there including Rafale. make no mistake about it.. Rafale is a pure waste of national exchequer of $20b, whereas LCA++ upto tranche 3 can make all firangies shiver under their pants.

For current ops, if mig-21s can satisfy, so do LCA can satisfy. wait for the FoC., and the Mk2. I agree that MoD is asking for speeding up LCA process, and DRDO start working on more efficiently, catering operational needs which is mandatory. I disagree in a sense that DRDO is not focused on operational requirements, but they are staging it. it is a wrong assumption there.

any R&D needs staging., not just safety aspect alone on such critical projects, the liveliness is very important.. it is not without any reason that DRDO chose composites, stability, fbw, sensors, etc.. with no brains on operational requirements. It definitely did bungle up on radar and engines., that lesson should be learned and matured that trashed and GTRE disbanded, instead reorganized and strengthened, with at least $5billion to begin with for kaveri.

Accept the failures, correct them and move on towards maturity our capabilities., and do not help firangie capabilities develop with our money.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Mar 2013 09:52

Sancho wrote:@ Austin

Do you have any infos about an Indian participation in the NG engine development for Pak Fa / FGFA? There were reports in the past, that Russia wants to co-develop it (obviously to get some funds from us), but is it a co-development now and are any Indian companies involved?

Not that i have come across any contribution info on the already developed 1st Stage Engine or the 2nd stage engine , the latter is funded and developed as part of 5th generation engine development that funds the entire gamut of 5th gen engine development in Russia from Helicopter engine to Civil and Military engine to Gas Turbines ( for ships and electricity etc ) in range of 9 T to 18 T category .... PAK-FA 2nd Stage engine i.e Idz 30 is one part of the development for 5th gen engine program which are funded by Russian Ministry of Industrial Development and MOD , more like the former then the later.

Infact till date we haven't contributed much funding beyond couple of million of dollar for training and for setting up R&D development centers , when the final design stage of FGFA is approved we will see funding coming in from indian side.

I think the engine story will be similar to MKI deal where we get TOT to develop engine and HAL will set up facility at Koraput and make the engine there under lic but with mostly indian materials in due course of time.

Sancho · Post by **Sancho** » 26 Mar 2013 07:30

NRao wrote:Says who exactly?

The development itself, since HALs part was aimed on the re-design of the single seat version to the twin seater, which is obviously not available anymore (at least anytime soon). The Russians even said that HAL could takeover the re-design of a naval version, to lure us in a joint naval version as well, but that is unlikely too. So HALs only hope is, that twin seaters will be an option later, for export versions.

NRao wrote:Which is why I have always stated that the AMCA will be THE statement India will make. Not even the LCA. (only if India had an engine. Sigh.)

None of these should be seen as statments, for what anyway, pride? These are tools to defend our country, or to project our power and we should aim on getting the best according to our needs. If we can provide the best or at least comparable developed on our own, great! If not, don't waste time and money for pride and show off reasons, while the forces and the defence of our country suffers see LCA delays (the shrinking squardon numbers, the lost pilots that needs to fly in old Migs...).

Austin wrote:PAK-FA 2nd Stage engine i.e Idz 30 is one part of the development for 5th gen engine program which are funded by Russian Ministry of Industrial Development and MOD , more like the former then the later...

...I think the engine story will be similar to MKI deal where we get TOT to develop engine and HAL will set up facility at Koraput and make the engine there under lic but with mostly indian materials in due course of time.

That's the engine that I meant and that we reportedly insisted on for FGFA. I also don't see much more than we can contribute to the engine development, but a joint development would still be very important for us, since we then can add India specific requirements to the performance of the engine!
Take Shakti or Kaveri engines as an example, which were developed with Indian specific climate conditions in mind as well. If we don't jointly develop it, the Russians obviously will focus mainly on their own requirements and we have to take what we get. Not to mention that participation and gain know how of such an engine development should be important for us, after the Kaveri engine failure. But unlike our participation for some subsystems of the AESA radar, I didn't heared anything about the engine development yet and hoped that somebody here can shed some light about it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Mar 2013 23:26

First picture emerging of 4th prototype of PAK-FA

http://russianplanes.net/id102400

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Mar 2013 00:39

Austin wrote:First picture emerging of 4th prototype of PAK-FA

http://russianplanes.net/id102400

For the first time I see the door on the side bays.

P.S. And a lot of the sensors seem to sit flush with the surface now.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Mar 2013 11:16

At Aero India for the first time shows the layout of the Russian-Indian future fighter, the younger brother of the Russian PAK FA. in HAL stall

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Mar 2013 15:55

Underneath Shot T-50-4

http://russianplanes.net/images/to103000/102413.jpg

The adoption of the PAK FA for service delayed for a year ( via lenta.ru )

Promising fighter T-50 (PAK FA) "actively being tested, and in 2016, these aircraft must be received by the troops." On this, as the "Interfax", said Russian Air Force Commander Lt. Gen. Viktor Bondarev. Earlier it was reported that the first flight models aircraft arrived in the Russian Air Force for testing in 2013 and the adoption of the aircraft into service will be held in 2015 in conjunction with the start of production.

At present, the flight test program PAK FA in Zhukovsky involved four prototype T-50. The fifth prototype built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aviation plant. This aircraft is expected to be handed over to the State already flight-test center at the Chkalov Akhtubinsk. According Bondarev, fully flight-test T-50 "will be completed in two to two and a half years."

In mid-January 2013 T-50-4 (fourth flight fighter prototype) first performed a long flight from Komsomolsk-on-Amur in Zhukovsky near Moscow. The plane was piloted by distinguished test pilot Sergey Bogdan. On the way out to Zhukovsky KnAAZ T-50-4 made two landing: Abakan and Chelyabinsk.

To date, the Russian Ministry of Defense has placed an order for 60 T-50. The need for the Russian Air Force in aircraft of this type previously estimated at 150-200 units. Based on the PAK-FA with India is also developing the export version of the aircraft, designated FGFA.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2013 18:16

Interview with General Designer of NPO "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin
link ( use translator )

You mentioned earlier the engine for future aviation complex tactical aircraft. I understand that the issue is sensitive in terms of technical solutions and is reluctant to give the designers comments on this account. One wrong word can be said about many professionals who do not want to report a new product. Still, a few words on the participation of the "Saturn" in the project. ?

- In the new projects, "Saturn" is actively working on a second stage engine for the PAK FA. Although we present the ODC Division civil engines, "Saturn" did not terminate in cooperation with the Yakovlev Design Bureau. "A.M.Lyulki" work on the engine. From 2006 to the present in the KB was created significant technological advance over the engine of the second stage for the PAK FA. This has allowed this year to reach an agreement with the leadership of military engines division that "Saturn" will be responsible for the high-pressure compressor and the high pressure turbine. These nodes are actually the heart of aviation engine. Achieve just such a solution was possible thanks to the fact that you have already created a demonstrator engine components, which fully meets the specs. We have experimentally confirmed it. I can say honestly and calmly, that today all the critical decisions that need to be tested experimentally for the engine tested. And the engine will be a target date by the competent organization of labor.

- You said that the aircraft engine is one of the most difficult and perhaps the most difficult in engineering terms the product. What is the difficulty?

- Aircraft engine - is a heat engine. In it, the higher the temperature of combustion, the higher the compression ratio of the compressor, the higher the efficiency. For these numbers to improve, you need heavy-duty, ultra-light, heat-resistant materials and alloys that can withstand high temperature and pressure. Suffice it to say that the temperature at the outlet of the combustion chamber may exceed 2,000 degrees. The turbine rotates at a rate of tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. Such temperatures and such speed to withstand turbine parts - wheels and turbine blades. Tear off one of the blades when the engine is under the wing of the plane in the air, and the flight may stop ... To avoid this, we need modern materials technology, which in nature and technology did not previously exist, which do not yet have names. CB now getting ready to offer not only new modifications and improvements have already mastered the engine, and innovative solutions to the very design of gas turbine engine.

Forming a technological advance, we first of all, are working to create high-temperature materials. "Saturn" today - one of the few organizations which, besides the use of materials on the market, is developing a high-temperature materials that can operate at gas temperatures up to 2050 degrees Kelvin. There are several patented "Saturn" alloys, which allows for their implementation to raise the temperature before the turbine more than 100 degrees. This is in fact already a revolution in engine. No new high-temperature alloys can not create a new generation of engines. This, in turn, requires new technologies, new equipment. New grade need not in itself, but as a material to create complex three-dimensional parts such as cooling the turbine blades. Turbine blade - a very important detail, which has a very complex three-dimensional surface, not only outside but inside in order to keep it running. It is no accident aircraft engine - "flaming engine" - is compared to the well-known anthem aviators with the human heart.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Apr 2013 22:28

I'd like one day, one of the DRDO guys to come out and make these kind of comments (and media to report it without masala) about high technology being developed with specific goals in mind and being put to use. The objective of creating something new, that's never been done before anywhere, and applied (not just theory) is the holy grail. You need passion and single-mindedness, at an organisational level. We've only done this sporadically. As far as engines are concerned, we've all known how inadequate efforts towards Kaveri have been and but I was sick of watching everyone after AI-13, being busy back-slapping over some single-crystal blades that aren't of requisite caliber to be used. More years are being wasted at GTRE in coming up products from yesteryears (and being completely clueless in the process), while the world is pursuing and achieving next generation technologies. We're only good for a begging bowl, hoping one of the other engine makers will just give us the required tech by way of consulting contract.

Living in the west I'm often remined after every olympics how many medals per capita a country of billion+ people produces. Hi-tech is no different story.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Apr 2013 23:22

JTull while GTRE deserves all the condemnation that rightly it does but Engine problem or for that matter the entire problem with MIC in India is not DRDO's only problem , they are just one of the key players in the big ecosystem , some of the key issues such as lack of industrialisation in order to support the MIC specially in High Tech areas of materials ,innovation ,engineering ... lacking requisite experience in this field and intellectual ability or lack of it , consistent lack of funding , lack of vision on part of GOI over decades on what needs to be done and funded long term , cultural issue ( chalta hai attitude in DPSU/R&D etc ).

DRDO or for that matter no single orginisation cannot compensate for these and it alone cannot drive the changes in these areas. DRDO most certainly can do better then what it has been doing and itself needs reform urgently , but cannot control issues that are far beyond its control.

West and East had MIC that have existed since WW1 may be much before they have built planes engines ( civil/military ) military system since many decades and these have proven consistently and reliably over period of time they had their own screw up and learning experience consequently , while we are just at the beginning of this cycle , we have yet to deploy a single aircraft that can be said as developed in house and has proven with decades of service either military or civil that can be considered as noteworthy forget about exporting them in numbers and getting competitive globally.

DRDO has it own weakness and its needs to shed its extra flab .......but lets not blame it either for all the problem ailing our MIC its a much bigger picture .....we have a long way to go and perhaps we will take many decade from now to reach there the journey is just a decade old ....the east and west took almost 100 years to reach where they are today even when we look at through the narrow window of achievement in Aviation & Engine both civil or military.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2013 18:16

Interview on PAK-FA 2nd stage engine

Interview:General designer "Saturn" Yuri Shmotin

"The engine of the second stage of the fifth generation aircraft will give new life"

One of the biggest challenges currently facing the Russian aircraft engine is a development of the second stage engine for the aircraft PAK FA (T-50). Most of the work on the creation of this engine performs Rybinsk "Saturn."

About that, at what stage is the creation of the engine, which features the new aircraft will become the "heart" told "Interfax-AVN" chief designer "Saturn" Yuri SHMOTIN.

- Yuri, tell us what should be the engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft? What are its main features?

- The plane of the fifth generation T-50 is not just a fighter, bomber or attack aircraft. This multi-purpose aircraft. Such aircraft should be given a new "heart", which would make it highly maneuverable, fast, cost-effective and able to withstand such competitors as American F-22 and F-35.

Engine for the fifth generation fighter aircraft will be different from the previous generation increased specific thrust, lower weight, reduced specific fuel consumption and the presence of new solutions for low visibility. In this case, it should be relatively cheap to operate and maintain. "Saturn" is currently working on such an engine.

- What units and aggregates of the new engine is given special attention in the development? What is the greatest challenge for the engineers?

- In aircraft engines, everything is important. One of the most complicated engine components is a high-pressure turbine. We were asked to make a turbine operating at this level of temperature at which the metal nickel alloys just melted. This work was successful.

The heart of an aircraft engine is a high-pressure compressor. Of its level of excellence is directly dependent all basic characteristics of the engine. The amount of detail in the new high-pressure compressor, we have managed to reduce by almost half compared with the previous stage of the compressor, while providing a significant performance increase by one level. The cost of making such a compressor will not exceed the cost of making HPC engine fourth generation. This is subject to the application of new materials and technologies.

Solving these and other problems, we will get to a gas generator with a new level of performance, which will be the basis for a new family of engines. Characteristics of the gas generator units, such as the effectiveness of the ARC, increased on average by more than four percent, and on a number of modes and eight. In fact, it is a revolution in engine, because determines the possibility of the engine with a huge reserve of development for traction.

- What structural materials preferred for a new engine?

- No of new materials is impossible to provide the characteristics that we make to the new generation of CCD. The specialists of "Saturn" is a good experience and the impact of new materials developed by the All-Russian Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Materials (VIAM).

First of all, it is, of course, high-temperature nickel alloys spade. Turbine blade - it is a unique product. It is a complex spatial structure, which must operate at temperatures above 2000 K.

There are also proprietary materials "Saturn." We can offer them for a new generation engine. These materials make it possible to increase the half life of the engine at the same temperatures.

Today much is said about the use of composite materials. The new engine for the PAK FA used composites that are based not only on the polymer matrix to the cold part, and parts by the high-temperature compositions. These works "Saturn" is already long enough.

- Do not forget that all new and modern with the time expires. Is there a possibility of the engine created for modernization?

- Of course. Concurrently with the development work on the engine of the fifth generation we build backlog, which will develop the engine is not only ten, but at 30, maybe 50 years.

Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

- How will affect the installation of new engines for flight characteristics of fifth generation fighter? Feel a difference pilot peresevshy the plane with the engine of the first stage on the plane with the engine of the second stage?

- The new engine is fundamentally different from the previous product of the first stage. Of course, the pilot will immediately feel the difference in traction. The plane with the new engine will be more docile and can quickly react to the pilot. In fact, the engine of the second stage is to give the T-50 aircraft to a new life.

- Yuri, we know that the PAK FA is already being tested. What engines are equipped with the first prototypes?

Now prototype completed the first phase of the motor, which in engineering circles is known as the product 117. In essence, this is the result of a deep family AL-31, which is installed on the aircraft today the Su-27.

Certainly, it's a great engine, which is a best seller and is built on the fundamental principles and basic ideas of the design office Arkhip Cradles. But this is still the engine stage 4 + +.

venku_Raj · Post by **venku_Raj** » 10 Apr 2013 21:31

India and Russia have crossed the first milestone, Preliminary design of FGFA completed

India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane.

“The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed,” Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.

“The aircraft design has been fully developed,” Sukhoi said in a press release. “Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year.”

Under the PDC contract Sukhoi has also trained Indian engineers and provided HAL with the data and software needed to create a single working environment. A team of HAL engineers and IAF experts has been working at Sukhoi’s design bureau in Moscow, while Russian engineers have been assigned to HAL.

Four T-50 aircraft, the Russian prototype of the fifth generation fighter, have already performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010.

The customised FGFA version will have “some differences” from the Russian prototype to meet “specific requirements of the Indian Air Force,” the Sukhoi announcement said.

Russian experts said the FGFA will differ in “mission hardware and software,” as well as weapons. India has dropped its initial plan to redesign the single-seat T-50 into a twin-seat version.

Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told reporters at Aero India-2013 that India is to receive from Russia the first prototype of the fifth-generation fighter in 2014, followed by two more in 2017 and 2018. The FGFA is expected to go into series production by 2022.

This is India’s biggest-ever defence project and its largest defence deal with Russia. It is expected to cost India more than $30 billion. However, last year India scaled down its original plan to acquire 214 planes by one-third, to 144 aircraft, citing time and cost factors. Russia plans to induct 60 planes at an estimated price tag of $100 million per aircraft.

LINK

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Apr 2013 22:00

Same news but from official Sukhoi press release

The contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the Russian-Indian 5th -generation fighter was completed

Moscow, April 10. The contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the Russian-Indian perspective multi-functional 5th-generation fighter (PMI/FGFA) was completed. The fighter design was fully developed. The both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year.

The agreement on the joint development and production of the 5th — generation fighter aircraft was signed on October 18, 2007 in Moscow at the 7th Session of the joint Russian-Indian Intergovernmental Commission on Military and Technical Cooperation. It is the largest joint project of the Russian-Indian military and technical cooperation. In December 2010 Rosoboronexport, Sukhoi Company and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited signed a contract to develop a sketch and technical project of the fighter. In the course of the first stage of the project the Russian side has trained Indian professionals, provided them with the original data and the software to create a single working environment. The Indian working group of experts has been working in Russia since January 2012 and a group of Russian specialists — in India. Both parties exchange the necessary information. The PMI/FGFA fighter developed by the parties will have some differences from the Russian prototype due to specific requirements of the Indian Air Force.

Sukhoi Company is currently involved in other Russian-Indian joint programs, such as modernization of the Indian Air Force Su-30MKI fighters and adaptation of the Russian-Indian air-to-ground BrahMos cruise missile to the Su-30MKI.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2013 02:08

Preliminary design completed, R&D phases about to be signed (this year). And first prototype in 2014?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2013 09:29

NRao wrote:Preliminary design completed, R&D phases about to be signed (this year). And first prototype in 2014?

As per IAF chief recent statement at AI link

Indian air force chief of staff told journalists at the recent Aero India show that he expects arrival of three PAKFA development prototypes in India, the first in 2015, the second in 2017 and the third in 2018.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Apr 2013 09:35

Today, the "Saturn" conducted extensive research on the development of fifth-generation engine with the use of a technology called "variable cycle engine." The studies, which suggest that a certain transformation engine thermodynamics through design changes can significantly improve engine performance at subsonic and supersonic flight conditions. One of these transformations can be the use of the third circuit. All this is provided.

Its now official that 5th Gen Engine would be a Variable Cycle one , which would mean the engine would be efficient under all flight condition and consequently fuel efficient too.

What do gurus on engine here have to say on this ?

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 11 Apr 2013 10:34

venku_Raj wrote:
Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told reporters at Aero India-2013 that India is to receive from Russia the first prototype of the fifth-generation fighter in 2014, followed by two more in 2017 and 2018. The FGFA is expected to go into series production by 2022.
LINK

So not even one prototype is going to be built in India?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Apr 2013 12:22

^^^ it was never going to be