J & K news and discussion

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 25 Jan 2011 17:09

jamwal wrote:What bridge ? There is no bridge at Lakhanpur crossing

Well as per the TV there is one now.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 25 Jan 2011 17:16

-----------Waving the white flag at Breaper --------------

Google Maps: Madhopur in Jammu and Kashmir - on the border between Punjab and Kashmir

-----------Still waving --------------

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 25 Jan 2011 17:18

There is a bridge besides the barrage...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... 5&t=h&z=17

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 25 Jan 2011 17:18

Vivek Raghuvanshi wrote:The Tri color flag march in J&K also diverts attention from the scams.

Should not the BJP focus on scams and that way come to power?

Your attacks on BJP diverts attention from the scams.

Should not Vivek Raghuvanshi focus on writing something on his website instead of acting like grumpy congress agent angry with BJP for exposing his congress bosses cowardice?

Afraid of Trianga on Lal Chowk then wear diapers congressis

Sri · Post by **Sri** » 25 Jan 2011 17:24

Distance between Madhopur and Jammu is 90 Kms. So they drive Sushma Anant and Arun for good 2 hours.... yesterday night.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Jan 2011 17:26

Ah yes, Madhopur. Sorry my mistake. I thought the crossing they were talking about was Lakhanpur here

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 25 Jan 2011 17:27

Neela wrote:-----------Waving the white flag at Breaper --------------

Google Maps: Madhopur in Jammu and Kashmir - on the border between Punjab and Kashmir

-----------Still waving --------------

Wrong choice birather. Should be green

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jan 2011 17:44

BJP leaders Ananth Kumar, Navjot Singh Sidhu, Sushma Swaraj and Arun Jaitley ahead of the party's Rashtriya Ekta Yatra at Madhopur bridge separating Punjab and J&K on Tuesday.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jan 2011 17:47

BJP yatra stopped at J&K border; Swaraj, Jaitley arrested

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 124370.ece

Amid high drama, the Bharatiya Janata Party’s flag yatra was stopped at the Lakhanpur border of Jammu and Kashmir with its three senior leaders being arrested even as they lashed out at the State government and the Centre for committing a “historic mistake“.

A day after being sent back from Jammu and Kashmir, senior leaders Sushma Swaraj, Arun Jaitley and Ananth Kumar tried to re-enter the State along with the Ekta Yatra being led by the party’s youth wing president Anurag Thakur but it was foiled by police which had put a barricade.

“What can be more unfortunate that those who burn the National Flag are being provided security while those holding the National Flag are being stopped,” said Ms. Swaraj as she was being arrested along with Mr. Jaitley, Mr. Kumar and Mr. Thakur on entry into Jammu and Kashmir from Punjab.

They were arrested for violating Section 144 which prohibits assembly of more than four persons at any particular place.

“What is our crime? Why are we being arrested? We have been marching peacefully,” Ms. Swaraj said while addressing thousands of party supporters.

Earlier, Ms. Swaraj and Mr. Jaitley addressed a public meeting at Madhopur on Punjab border and vowed to go ahead with the plans to to unfurl the national tricolour at Lal Chowk in Srinagar.

“Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has said if you visit the State, the separatists will be provoked. This shows the psychological surrender (by the State government) before the separatists... it is a historic mistake,” Mr. Jaitley, Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, said.

Later, a group of activists were seen crossing the bridge on the Ravi river on the Punjab-J&K border where they were stopped by security forces.

The BJYM activists continued to shout slogans demanding that they be allowed to proceed to Srinagar to hoist the tricolour at Lal Chowk.

Mr. Jaitley said when a “group of separatists” gathered in New Delhi and made anti-India speeches, the government did not take action contending that freedom of speech was their right.

“But when we took he tricolour to unfurl it at Lal Chowk, they dub it as a crime,” he said.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jan 2011 17:50

Hi guys....sorry for the intrusion in this no holds barred discussion.....to espouse everyone's patriotism.

Are we not supposed to discuss more about why OA & Co are not willing to hoist flag at Lal Chowk in a way and act akin to sympathizing with separatists rather why BJP is doing this yatra ?

I feel this whole discussion is getting hijacked. The matter of concern is why OA & Co are not willing....In defending or opposing the BJP's action, pls don't miss the boat.

For a change sample this....

Vikram sood tweets with B. Raman

@ramanthink But not allowing a flag ceremony because the separatists would be demonstratitively unhappy is stretching liberalism too far.

For this, B. Raman replies...

@Vikram_Sood one is not saying you can't.One is saying don't at a particular place on a particular day in interest of public order.

at a particular place on a particular day? Day referred here is Republic day. Isn't is something odd coming from such people. You can either reject this a bunkum or....it is......combining with the opposition sudden burst on the Center's handling on Kashmir......is it confirms some kind of compromise being worked on?

Is this is true, for the record, it doesn't matter whether the flag is hoisted by BJP or RSS or CPI(m) or any lunatic org. at Lal Chowk, I wholeheartedly welcome such move.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jan 2011 17:59

“Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Omar Abdullah has said if you visit the State, the separatists will be provoked. This shows the psychological surrender (by the State government) before the separatists... it is a historic mistake,” Mr. Jaitley, Leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha, said.

I have a feeling, this Gov. is going to make the Kashmir issue like Telugana.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 25 Jan 2011 17:59

^Kanson read this Raja Ram's post

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1017555

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jan 2011 18:04

To me couple of leaders of the current dispensation has a hatered towards the concept of India due to certain events in their life in the past. They are taking this opportunity to dismember the country as a vengence. They are atleast trying to enable the dismemberment. The power that they got is being used in full scale. Period.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jan 2011 18:05

Muppalla guru..who are these people?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 25 Jan 2011 18:11

BJP Ekta Yatra shown black flags

http://www.hindustantimes.com/BJP-Ekta- ... 54223.aspx

Radical Sikh activists belonging to SAD (Mann) in Amritsar on Monday showed black flags to Ekta Yatra led by Bharatiya Janata Yuva Morcha (BJYM) president and BJP MP Anurag Thakur on Monday when the march was leaving the city and heading for Srinagar. The less than a dozen activists were arrested on the spot and the Yatra continued without any interruption due to the presence of several policemen throughout the way in Amritsar.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 25 Jan 2011 18:13

abhishek_sharma wrote:Muppalla guru..who are these people?

Have you seen Nayakan, Nayak in Tamil, Telugu or Dayavan in Hindi. The hero is killed by a character whose only aim is to kill the hero (Kamal Hasan). He looks like a idiot or puppet etc. Inspite of great care that Kamal's gangs take they simply could not suspect that character. He stabs Kamal to avenge the death of this father.

India being hero here did error, like Kamal, is making certain people as leaders. The vengence against the concept of India is the single point focus in enabling (I should say trying to as probably they will fail) the dismemberment.

Let us leave it there. I am sure someday BRF will discuss that when the expose will be public.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 25 Jan 2011 18:35

Raghavendra wrote:^Kanson read this Raja Ram's post

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 5#p1017555

Thanks Raghavendra and Raja Ram. One thing that everyone can agree with is, this tamasha started after OA came to power.

Yes, at the risk of repeating myself, the matter of concern is why OA & Co is acting in such sleazy manner and how much compromise( if any) this Gov. is prepared to make.

It doesnt matter who is and who is not hoisting the flag.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 25 Jan 2011 19:06

Somebody raised the question 'why would anyone in powerin Dilli do such a suicidal thing as dilute Indian hold over the valley?' Particularly when such a move is likely to lead to a defeat at the hustings.

And that is a good question - one of the 3 ingredients for IDing seriously deviant activity: motive, means and opportunity.

Well, regarding motive, the oft repeated tall claims for motive aka Nobull prize and the like pass little if any muster. IMHO, what matters to the ruling clique even more than retaining power in the future must be retaining power they hold currently. And that is where skeletons in the cupboard become so inconvenient only. Skeletons could be illegal monies stashed in secret accounts abroad (accounts now not so secret perhaps to interested phoren powers) to smoking gun evidence of illegal activity on the inncer circle itself, who knows? Yeah, yeah, just speculating but without stronmg enough motive, I fail to see why any GoI will want to dilute Indian hold over the valley.

Anyway, general OT/CT level rambles, I guess. Standard disclaimers apply, as always.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Jan 2011 19:07

Also dont forget that the baba who brought Omar has scored zero with his three strikes. Hence the need to back Omar to the hilt. The question is it in the back? IOW will Omar survive in later years while there are still other forces?

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 25 Jan 2011 19:23

Ramana : I think after 26/11, Kangress has realized that they can come back to power even under worse circumstances.
The more BJP is painted in black, more are the odds that rest of the political class will be forced to chose kangress when it comes to showdown in few years from now.
Kangress Govt would have had the same attitude even if Yaseen malik was CM of J&K. It is their pathological dislike of Indian nationalism that drives this nationwide hunt for anything remotely connected with this yatra and then we think that Dsingh was talking out of his a$$ earlier...

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 25 Jan 2011 19:30

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Crack ... ng/741821/

Crackdown on parallel march, Yasin Malik goes into hiding

JKLF supremo Yasin Malik who has announced a parallel march to Lal Chowk on Republic Day to foil BJP’s plan to hoist the Tricolour at the square has gone into hiding. A police team, which raided his house at Maisuma, located a little distance away to the north-west of Lal Chowk, did not find him there.

In a statement, Malik has said he will lead a march to the square on January 26 and unfurl the JKLF flag. “ In the garb of flag hoisting, BJP is preparing to launch an assault on Valley. But we will not let the party succeed,” Malik said. “Our programme for January 26 would be go ahead at all costs.”

However, Malik said that JKLF would give a befitting reply to BJP “strictly within the parameters of democratic principles and non-violence” . “By peacefully resisting BJP plan we want to send a message to the people in India that Kashmir is a disputed state and that only its solution would guarantee peace and prosperity in the subcontinent,”Malik said.

Malik’s march has been supported by the moderate Hurriyat leader Bilal Gani Lone who has said that BJP wanted to create trouble in the state.

Surprisingly, hardline Hurriyat Conference Syed Ali Geelani has said: To raise a flag amidst the protection of six lakh troops is no courageous act. Our stand is that this (flag raising) will make no difference to the status of Kashmir problem which will be there after BJP goes back.”

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 25 Jan 2011 19:50

Marten wrote:It is time you apply the troll filter. No point letting a troll fill up the pages. He's already clarified his sojourn here was "30 minutes time pass". Ergo, your reaction is your problem, and his posts are the admins'.

Agreed. Not just a troll though but a sophisticated operator. Always jumps in when the Congress or dear leader MMS is under attack on the forum. Long mails full of "==" and patronizing statements about not being partisan, lets not be simplistic etc in the same breath. Not really hard to make out where political loyalties are. Also, expect whenever you speak your mind regarding dear leader, to have complaints made re: Mods on how parochial/disrespectful to PM etc you are from other fellow followers.
..................

As regards why the BJP is doing this, its pretty clear that they have heard enough stuff about "joint ownership" of Kashmir etc and want to nip it in the bud. A few years back, dear leader was in the news suggesting that a Siachen peace park was appropriate. Leaks then appeared from the services end, putting paid to the idea. Now those claims of accommodation around J&K, open borders etc are again being heard, with no concern about what that will result in for the rest of india and its security. Whether it be conversions, corruption, attacks on the integrity of the majority community "saffron terror"/batla house controversy/karkare talk or issues national integrity, the signs are clear. The current dispensation, clearly regards itself as something else above and apart from the brown Indians (refer to Wikileaks and comments on what heir apparent told the US ambassador and the comments from Rajmata herself on India).

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Jan 2011 20:17

Wow almost 5 pages in less than 12 hours.

A simple, naive and emotional question. Why the heck, were we Indians, from LKG, UKG, 1st standard.....to 12th standard fed brain washed by GoI? I mean no school text book shows J&K as disputed territory. For years and years, we were led to believe, yeah we were youngsters no, that J&K was wholly integrated with India. One looked at WB map and J&K map, no difference. One looked at Rajasthan map and Orissa map, no difference. So on so forth. So after decades when we get into adulthood, like the parents in America telling their kids there is really no tooth-fairy or Santa Claus, our Government and media gently reminds us "Sonny, actually you know what? All is not cozy there. Some of it is occupied by our friendly neighbors!". So the sonny responds "WTF? Every now and then, I did hear news about some insurgency and Pakistan down hill skiing in 1948. Also sometimes I did read in newspapers and elsewhere that there is something called "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir". But now you are saying the State is so different from rest of us?"

Since this is the mother of all analogies thread, one more.

Dad: Son, I want to talk to you.
Son: Is it about my smoking?
Dad: {Sighs} no not that.
Son: Is it about my girl friend?
Dad: {Impatiently} No not that.
Son: So wassup?
Dad: Son, you know you the brother you love so dearly?
Son: Yes.
Dad: Well, he is not really our son.
Son: WTF ?
Dad: Mind your language son. It is no time to get emotional and hurl words.
Son: WTF dad?
Dad: You see, we adopted him when he was a baby from an orphanage. There was a clause in the adoption, that if the real parents turn up, we have to "give him away". A couple have been contesting for several years now that he is their son. So we thought it is better to tell you now.
Son: Gee, dad. Thanks for nothing.
Dad: Why the sad face, you still love him, he still loves you. That is not going to change. What matters who he belongs to, our house will be always be open to him.
Son: So is my sister really my sister?
Dad: You know she is going to get married, and then she will go away with her husband....
Son: You have been saying we are all a happy family, and during tough times we all should stick together.
Dad: Sonny, now now...this is not really a tough situation. This is better for your brother....errr him.
Son: WTF dad. What about how I feel.
Dad: Sonny, don't be emotional and selfish. Think about others first. Individuals first, Family next.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 20:34

A vacuum bulb exploded in my brain!!!

INC truly chanikyan?

Do they want Cashmiris to taste the just governance that Pakistan offers? How long will it take before Cashmir experiences the wonderful life of Pakis with those daily doses of vacuum bulb explosions, bumping of blasphemers (Yasin Malik with his Gandhism), and Fridin dhamakas in shrines and mosques?

How long will it take for OA to be labeled as a blasphemer in a Paki cashmir?

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 25 Jan 2011 20:45

Theo_Fidel wrote:Crackdown on parallel march, Yasin Malik goes into hiding

My local vernacular daily had already reported this two days back. This was when the BJP leaders from Kashmir was picked up as part of preventive detention. So looks like Yasin Malik had bolted (or allowed to bolt) much before the crack-down on BJP workers began. And since he is absconding we should watch out for some more of his dramas.

How ever the biggest anti-climax would be if Yasin Malik and Co some how lands up at Lal Chowk and raises the Indian National Flag (okay, with a Pakistani flag perhaps next to it)

. The BJP leaders would be sulking in some police van, where as MMS and all the rest can once again say "Jai Ho" to secularism

.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 20:48

Sachin garu,

It doesn't matter who hoists the Indian national flag at Lal Chowk. It could be OBL for all I care.

I want India to win, and I think that is what BJP wants too.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 25 Jan 2011 21:07

^^^ I put my money on vina sir hoisting Indian flag at Lal chock.

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jan 2011 21:10

RamaY wrote:I want India to win, and I think that is what BJP wants too.

I dont think so. What BJP wants is very different. I saw this interview with Omar Abdullah on this Yatra business and I agree with his reasoning of why the BJP is doing this in response to a question and why it is not the time or season to pushing such kind of agendas on Kashmir.

Also he has a point. Why dont you raise the flag in Maoist dominated areas of Chattisgarh where more than 96 CRPF Jawans were killed in a single day if you want to prove the country's sovereignty to anyone and why are picking on lal chowk in some seriously perilous situation if not trying to fish in troubled waters to drive an agenda that is focused outside kashmir (like upcoming UP elections and trying to wrap yourself in a nationalist patina, which I agree with OA,that Indians today are not fools to fall far).

Watch the video here. Omar slams BJP for using tricolour for politica gains

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 21:20

Vina,

OA and congress could have taken the wind out of this agitation by asking the CRPF to raise the flag which was done all through these "some seriously perilous situation" years but not done in the "most peaceful year" (until the amarnath agitations).

I dont remember Pakistan flag flying in dantewada. Do you??

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2011 21:21

Just as a hypothetical case study:

Let us say the Shiv Sena is upset about something and does a lot of bus-burning and stone throwing one particular week, in Mumbai.

The next week is Moharram. Shi'a Muslim citizens of India exercise their fundamental right by taking out a procession. Suddenly, Shiv Sainiks fall on the procession with bottles and stones and knives, killing many of the devotees. After this the Sena engages in street battles with Muslims and against the police, torching shops, vandalizing homes and places of business. Many lives are lost.

So in this situation, to the respected posters quoted above: What is the correct application of law and order?

Should Moharram processions be banned in following years, just in case the Shiv Sena gets some khujli a few weeks ahead of time and therefore might use Moharram as a pretext to commit violence and vandalism?

Should the right of the Moharram devotees to engage in religious ceremonial procession be abrogated, because there is a "fear" of "violence and disorder" by Shiv Sena vandals breaking the law?

Noticed that the INC brigade did not answer one interesting Q raised by Rudradev earlier ( have quoted it above). Could anyone of the worthies kindly provide a answer to the above since a reply to this question sums up the thought process/neutrality of the theories being peddled here...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 21:22

Here is a party which was ready to go to war for an attack on a national symbol - parliament
On the other hand I see another which shows a callous attitude towards national symbols - flag

Vina,

If you dont mind, could you please answer the question I asked here
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 8#p1017658

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 25 Jan 2011 21:24

It is the Narayan Murthy syndrome -- wants to be President of India, but demurs on singing the National Anthem.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2011 21:25

ravi_ku wrote:Vina,

OA and congress could have taken the wind out of this agitation by asking the CRPF to raise the flag which was done all through these "some seriously perilous situation" years but not done in the "most peaceful year" (until the amarnath agitations).

That is the sad part. It is not as if the GoI/OA are trying to steal the limelight by getting someone of their guys to hoist the tri-colour...

Its just that they are refusing to let the tricolour be hoisted by anyone at Lal-Chowk Clock tower( where it was a practice for 20 years of the worst militancy) which is really

and scary...

( and no the CRPF are NOT hoisting it at the Clock tower but somewhere else ( mostly their barracks) in Lal Chowk even this year)

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 25 Jan 2011 21:28

RamaY wrote:A vacuum bulb exploded in my brain!!!

INC truly chanikyan?

Do they want Cashmiris to taste the just governance that Pakistan offers? How long will it take before Cashmir experiences the wonderful life of Pakis with those daily doses of vacuum bulb explosions, bumping of blasphemers (Yasin Malik with his Gandhism), and Fridin dhamakas in shrines and mosques?

How long will it take for OA to be labeled as a blasphemer in a Paki cashmir?

<CT Alert>
Apart from that..I think it is a probability that BJP is helping INC by diverting Public's attention from INC's corrupt practices...now the question is whether the help was asked by INC or not... Another CT thing is that as INC has "few" obligations w.r.t minority vote bank...they may not be assertive in stating that Valley==India and vice versa domestically and on the global fora...BJP is the perfect force in displaying and demonstrating strong voice that Valley==India..hence this massive Yatra...and if these two are not the cases....what CRS thinks may be true
</CT Alert>

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jan 2011 21:29

Just as a hypothetical case study:
The next week is Moharram. Shi'a Muslim citizens of India exercise their fundamental right by taking out a procession. ..

Easy answer. Moharram procession is not a "fundamental right". Even if it were, it is not absolute and subject to public order, public health , "morality" etc. In a tense , surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed, the right can be abridge and any administration worth it's salt will abridge it for that particular occasion. Notice that it doesn't mean that the procession is banned for the next years or the years hence, if the situation does not warrant such a thing.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 25 Jan 2011 21:29

and any way there is also a bigger issue here.

Is India democratic?
When the main opposition party leaders are not allowed to enter a state, what kind of kangaroo democracy is this?

vina · Post by **vina** » 25 Jan 2011 21:33

ravi_ku wrote:When the main opposition party leaders are not allowed to enter a state, what kind of kangaroo democracy is this?

Arun Jaitley is a hot shot lawyer. Why doesn't he challenge the gov'ts action in the supreme court. He won't coz he knows he will lose. The govt is well within the law on this.

sum · Post by **sum** » 25 Jan 2011 21:36

Moharram procession is not a "fundamental right". Even if it were, it is not absolute and subject to public order, public health , "morality" etc. In a tense , surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed, the right can be abridge and any administration worth it's salt will abridge it for that particular occasion. Notice that it doesn't mean that the procession is banned for the next years or the years hence, if the situation does not warrant such a thing.

Basically, if the lunatic Hindu residents of that area get into riot mode just a week before the Muharram procession every year, we will not have a Muharram procession ever.

Wonder what will be the reaction of the authorities if the aggrieved party ( the Shias) decide to riot to show their displeasure after X years?
Will they be forcibly hounded out of the area to enforce sec 144 or will there be sympathy for the poor folks who couldn't have their procession due to hooligans and which will lead to the authorities having such a procession under security cover to prove a point?

Just trying to check the analogy with the roles reversed and the reactions the role reversal might bring about...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 25 Jan 2011 21:39

The thread has moved 10 pages in one day. The day will not see any flag raising in the Lal Chawk on the morrow. The secular Indian govt has made sure of that. In spite of my previous beliefs that Status Quo will not be be altered in J&K. Now I am no longer sure.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 25 Jan 2011 21:40

Just as a hypothetical case study:

Let us say the Shiv Sena is upset about something and does a lot of bus-burning and stone throwing one particular week, in Mumbai.

The next week is Moharram. Shi'a Muslim citizens of India exercise their fundamental right by taking out a procession. Suddenly, Shiv Sainiks fall on the procession with bottles and stones and knives, killing many of the devotees. After this the Sena engages in street battles with Muslims and against the police, torching shops, vandalizing homes and places of business. Many lives are lost.

So in this situation, to the respected posters quoted above: What is the correct application of law and order?

Should Moharram processions be banned in following years, just in case the Shiv Sena gets some khujli a few weeks ahead of time and therefore might use Moharram as a pretext to commit violence and vandalism?

Should the right of the Moharram devotees to engage in religious ceremonial procession be abrogated, because there is a "fear" of "violence and disorder" by Shiv Sena vandals breaking the law?

This is a hypothetical case only. The true colors come only when it materializes. Until then the standard answer of [sic] seculars would be "Moharram will be banned" because they know that the situation will never arise.