Bharat Rakshak

Sachin wrote: The bad part is that, many of these very people were also loan payment defaulters. They just did not turn up at the bank to pay EMI, or ensure that their accounts had money. Now when such people start re-using their accounts, the bank seems to be straight away pulling out their loan dues from the SB Account. As per them, they have every right to pull money from the SB account of a person who is a loan defaulter; to the very last rupee in the account. No special notices, or instructions have to be given to the SB account holder.

So why is this a bad part? This should be the good part no? The defaulters are finally being forced to do that they should have lawfully done in the first place. I can understand if they defaulted due to bankruptcy or sudden debt (supplier/buyer reneging on commitments), but if they are flush with cash, lack of money was not the reason. Clearly, they had no intention of giving the money back and are now in a twist of fate they find themselves doing the very thing that they sought to avoid.

SBI undercuts all, slashes rates to lure corporate customers away from others

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... rs/455462/

With the cost of funds falling fast, State Bank of India (SBI) is resorting to deep rate cuts of as much as 150-175 basis points to wean away corporate customers from other banks.

Credit and deposit ratios in banks falls to 6-year low at 72.7 per cent

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... nt/455356/

The credit-deposit ratio of the banking system, or the proportion of deposits deployed as loans, dropped 155 basis points to 72.7%, the lowest in six years, in the fortnight ended November 11, data released by the Reserve Bank of India showed.

Demonetisation: SBI waives MDR on Master, Visa debit cards

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... ds/455065/

Demonetisation: As bank deposits grow by Rs 6 lakh cr, government set to impose hefty levies

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... es/455455/

Cabinet gives green signal to amend IT Act; 60 pc tax rate expected on undisclosed income

http://www.financialexpress.com/economy ... ct/455202/

Paytm, MobiKwik, PayU, others cheer RBI move to hike limit for users to Rs 20,000

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... 00/454260/

Mobile wallets such as Paytm, MobiKwik, PayU and FreeCharge expect that the number of merchants accepting transaction through their digital platform will rise manifold now that the Reserve Bank of India has doubled the monthly ceiling beyond which they cannot operate. On Tuesday, RBI enhanced the issuance limit for pre-paid payment instruments to R20,000 per month from R10,000 for users and upto R50,000 for merchant bank transfers.

Demonetisation effect: Reliance JioMoney offers no-limit 10% cashback; here’s how to get it

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... 00/454260/

Sachin wrote:They just did not turn up at the bank to pay EMI, or ensure that their accounts had money. Now when such people start re-using their accounts, the bank seems to be straight away pulling out their loan dues from the SB Account. As per them, they have every right to pull money from the SB account of a person who is a loan defaulter; to the very last rupee in the account. No special notices, or instructions have to be given to the SB account holder.

This demonetising is one akshayapatra move. Keeps on reaping benefits for the overall economy and saving lots of grief for banks.

Couple this with a national credit rating and we got a much smoother way to avail of loans, than wear Brylcreen and grin at the Bank managers. Another one would be a national database for traffic shenanigans and we will have the largest self-regulating bunch of people in the world.

Sirji - this is a critical option for NRIs and PIOs. Most of them do carry token amount of indian currency while traveling out of India. This currency comes of use on return - i.e. Paying for Taxi, Porter, chai, samosa etc. at the airport and while commuting to their destination in India. End result - a good number of NRIs are stuck with old currency and will face hardship during their initial leg of commute after landing to their destination. The option of being able to convert 5K is basically converting old currency to new. The $ or Pound conversion is not effected by this Rs. 5000 rule. Any money exchange at the airports should be able to help with that.

After my last trip to India, I kept 2 1000 rupees notes and about 600 in 100 rupees notes. This was for the prepaid taxi that I may need for the next trip, as the plane arrives very late. With the demonitisation, I will loose about $30 or there about, no big deal. I am not going ask anybody to exchange this into new currency, even if I could.
Gautam

Yes. Salary period is critical, and by that time some 500s should hit the market. Senior people, I have spoken with say that they are also airlifting the money when needed. Printing is in full swing. Now the need is for more 500s and some 100s because 100s have stopped getting circulated. People are just withdrawing 100s keeping it with them and not spending. This is because it is difficult to pay small cash payments with 2000 and there are no 500s. Further lines before ATMs and banks need to get smaller and disappear. The sooner GOI babus and RBI ensure 500s and smaller or no lines that the better. I have only contact with later and they say that they are doing things needed.

With internet penetration rate in India at only about 35%, and even less for smartphones, how will the majority of the country achieve liquidity? I think the anecdotal stories on this board is a bit biased, as not only do all the posters obviously have access to internet, but are capable and willing to post in English online.

I think this demonetization effort will cause a liquidity crisis which will affect the poor majority of India disproportionately.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ote-revamp

How India's Cash Chaos Is Shaking Everyone From Families to Banks
Jeanette Rodrigues

Serpentine queues spilling from banks. Parents worried that they can’t provide for their families. Prime Minister Narendra Modi appealing to Indians to bear the pain for just a little while longer.

These pictures continue to dominate media coverage in Asia’s third-largest economy, even two weeks after the government’s shock clampdown on cash. While supporters of the move say it will help root out tax evasion and graft in the years ahead, critics question the administration’s planning and execution.

What many outside the country can’t comprehend, though, is the reason for the chaos. Surely global governments in the past have suddenly banned certain currency denominations, too, haven’t they?
Why India’s Cash Clampdown is Different

As most Indians gathered around for dinner Nov. 8, Modi blindsided citizens by announcing on national television that their 500 rupee and 1,000 rupee ($15) notes would be worthless come midnight. The step was essential to clamp down on "black money," he said, the local term for cash stashed away to avoid tax.

In terms of the share of currency in circulation, Modi’s move was akin to sucking out from the system all U.S. dollar bills except about half of the $1 notes.

The decision rattled the world’s second-most populous nation, where cash dominates day-to-day life. Strange tales were whispered around neighborhoods that night, of the wealthy rushing to purchase gold and luxury watches to extinguish unaccounted cash, while housewives stocked up on groceries.

Morning dawned to even more confusion, and when banks reopened the next day people lined up to exchange their now worthless currency. Newspapers reported that sacks of torn notes turned up across the country as people destroyed and abandoned them to avoid prosecution.

It’s not as if the notes would turn into paper at the stroke of midnight. They’d still retain their value, the government ruled, but only if they were deposited into bank accounts by Dec. 30. Strict caps were imposed on the exchange of physical bills into new notes, and those depositing the old notes had to submit signed declarations and come armed with identification.

That doesn’t sound so tough, you may say. Try this: as many as 600 million Indians probably don’t have bank accounts, central bank data show. A disproportionate number of these live in more than 600,000 villages, earning daily wages in cash.

Sowing season is also starting for farmers, who account for about half the population. The government will fully concentrate on rural areas now and will boost currency in supply soon, Finance Minister Arun Jaitley told reporters on Tuesday.

To meet demand, banks stayed open for longer hours, offering water and coffee to hassled clients. Reports began trickling in -- several disputed -- of Indians collapsing as they waited to exchange their bills under the biting sun, as well as bank staff dying under the strain of the job.

Tourists were left stranded without money and touts fleeced visitors who had been until then enjoying the beaches of Goa or the shrines of Rajasthan. Part of the reason for the trouble is that India is woefully under-banked. Cash machines are few and far between, even though demand for services has been surging over the years.

Amid rising public anger, Modi appealed for understanding. Give me 50 more days, he requested Indians in a teary-eyed address on Nov. 12. "After that, if any fault is found in my intentions or my actions, I am willing to suffer any punishment given by the country."

Modi’s motive was clear: he sought to take account of each of the big bills in circulation. Of the 15 trillion rupees that needed to be turned in at banks, about a third wouldn’t be deposited, the government’s lawyer told the Supreme Court.
However, as the days rolled on, it became increasingly clear that the logistics weren’t completely thought through. To pump out the new notes, cash machines needed to be refitted, which banks scrambled to do after being caught unaware. Printing the required number of new notes could itself take as long as six more months, according to some estimates.

Alternative payment providers saw their window of opportunity. Mobile wallet companies such as Paytm and Freecharge.in reported a jump in transactions. Again, most of this came from cities and towns. Most of India, data show, is unfamiliar with the available options.

One reason for the lack of technological options is that the availability of third-generation mobile spectrum and broadband is limited. Of India’s 1.3 billion population, less than 300 million use the Internet. Of the total number of Indians who own a mobile phone, only about 26 percent have smartphones, which are essential to run payment apps.
The relatively low penetration of smartphones in India is because the cost of a smartphone is prohibitively high in the nation with the lowest living standards among major emerging markets.

That leaves Indians back where they started -- relying on cash for their daily survival, but not getting quite enough of it.

"Like everyone else, we were surprised by the dramatic action," former U.S. Treasury Secretary Lawrence Summers and Natasha Sarin wrote in a blog post on his website. "This is by far the most sweeping change in currency policy that has occurred anywhere in the world in decades."

And here's Larry blog entry:

Most sweeping change in currency policy in the world in decades
11/21/2016 By Natasha Sarin and Lawrence H. Summers

One of us (Larry) has long advocated the abolition of the $100 note in the US context and the 500 euro note (aka the Bin Laden) in the European context. We assumed the next step after the ECB’s announcement that the 500 euro note would be phased out would be discussion of the $100 bill and of the particularly pernicious 1000 Swiss franc note.

Like everyone else, we were surprised by the dramatic action taken by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi to demonetize the existing 500 and 1000 rupee notes. This is by far the most sweeping change in currency policy that has occurred anywhere in the world in decades.

First, it impacts notes that are in widespread use, being valued at 7.34 and 14.68 dollars respectively. While it might be argued that since India is much poorer than the United States $15 in India is equivalent to $100 in the United States, the reality is that most Americans in the top 1 percent of the income distribution do not handle $100 bills on even a weekly basis whereas 500 rupee notes are very widely used in India.

Second, and more fundamental, actions like those taken by the ECB or those proposed for the US end the creation of new high denomination notes. They do not contemplate declaring what has been legal tender to no longer be legal tender essentially overnight It is the imminent prospect of notes currently held becoming worthless that has created such alarm and disruption in India. Small and medium-sized merchants have seen their shops (which transact mostly in cash) deserted and ordinary Indian citizens have spent the last week in line outside banks hoping to be able to exchange their cash holdings for legal tender.

We recognize that many of those who hold large quantities of cash in India have come by their wealth in corrupt or illegal ways. So, the temptation to expropriate is understandable. After all, as the argument goes, anyone who came by their wealth legally has nothing to fear from coming forward and exchanging old notes for new ones.

Most free societies would rather let several criminals go free than convict an innocent man. In the same way, for the government to expropriate from even a few innocent victims who, for one reason or another, do not manage to convert their money is highly problematic. Moreover, the definition of what is illegal or corrupt is open to debate given commercial practices that have prevailed in India for a long time.

There are also questions of equity and efficacy. We strongly suspect that those with the largest amount of ill-gotten gain do not hold their wealth in cash but instead have long since converted it into foreign exchange, gold, bitcoin or some other store of value. So it is petty fortunes, not the hugest and most problematic ones, that are being targeted.

Without new measures to combat corruption, we doubt that this currency reform will have lasting benefits. Corruption will continue albeit with slightly different arrangements.

On balance, nothing in the Indian experience gives us pause in recommending that no more large notes be created in the United States, Europe, and around the world. We were not enthusiastic previously about the idea of withdrawing existing notes from circulation because we judged the costs to exceed the benefits. The ongoing chaos in India and the resulting loss of trust in government fortify us in this judgement.

^^ That is a pseudo-liberal-patronizing argument. The chemo-therapy to remove the cancer caused by congress will be painful.

Dunno about villages, but there are no queues in front of ATMs. Banks are back to normal.

chetak wrote:They are scamming us
Nepal bans new Indian Rs 500 and Rs 2,000 notes, waits for RBI notification

Nepal is well within its right to do as it pleases regarding the use of Indian currency - on this topic I am with them. Nepal has officially extended the facility of use of Indian currency to expedite trade and tourism, and with demonetization it is the ordinary Nepalese holders of Indian notes of 500 and 1000 who have been confiscated of their money.

This is minor collateral damage, as far as GoI is concerned, like foreign travellers being stuck with old notes and imminent flights out, or NRIs not planning to be back anytime soon.

One may argue that Nepal had already banned 500s and 1000s due to prevalence of FICN, so they can go to hell. But this is a delicate time in our relationship, and it will be good for India to make a gesture (even if it is only a theoretical one) to allow Nepalese citizens to likewise exchange small sums of money (up to Rs 2000) at specified banks in Nepal, with an entry made to their passport. That will automatically disallow 50% of the money conversions but at least we can say we accommodated your concerns.

there are no queues in front of ATMs because nobody wants the 2000 rs note that is being dispensed bigly out of ATM. People want 500/100.

100 was available initially but now shopkeepers do not give change back in 100s. Looks like everybody has gone into hoarding 100s mode and considering that as safer currency to hoard.

now if I go to a shop to buy 12 lemon for Rs 60 and give 100. The shopkeeper instead of giving me change will throw in 6 lemon more and give me a smile.

asgkhan wrote:^^ That is a pseudo-liberal-patronizing argument. The chemo-therapy to remove the cancer caused by congress will be painful.

Dunno about villages, but there are no queues in front of ATMs. Banks are back to normal.

But that's the thing, isn't it? What do BRFites know about the villages? Every story I've seen posted here is about someone's experience from cities that even a foreigner like me has heard of. What about the villages? Given that most there don't have bank accounts, smart phones, or even internet access, chances are they're not experiencing demonetization the same way posters here are.

Kashi wrote: So why is this a bad part? This should be the good part no? The defaulters are finally being forced to do that they should have lawfully done in the first place. I can understand if they defaulted due to bankruptcy or sudden debt (supplier/buyer reneging on commitments), but if they are flush with cash, lack of money was not the reason. Clearly, they had no intention of giving the money back and are now in a twist of fate they find themselves doing the very thing that they sought to avoid.

bad part for them.

DavidD wrote:

asgkhan wrote:^^ That is a pseudo-liberal-patronizing argument. The chemo-therapy to remove the cancer caused by congress will be painful.

Dunno about villages, but there are no queues in front of ATMs. Banks are back to normal.

But that's the thing, isn't it? What do BRFites know about the villages?

I know a lot about Indian villages and travel there weekly. It's true that demont. has not made them worried not made them suffer.

(Chinese villages on the other hand have kids being raised by grandparents living in toxic soil and toxic water, they are suffering without demonetisation. You should worry about them. )

Suraj wrote:TKiran: yes please make that the last post on that sidebar. I'll leave that post alone, but no more.

Suraj san, so I got one last chance to troll. thank you,

let me begin with Shiv sir's post,

shiv wrote: Yes a paradigm shift is needed, but when you talk about "understanding" what YOU mean, you will also be asked to understand what others mean.

You are calling for a paradigm shift that suits you and you claim that it is the best way to protect not only your way of life but all Hindus. This is an argument that will fail on a thousand counts and is only fuel for evangelists. You also need a paradigm shift in your thinking. No more from me on this.

Actually Shiv Sir has guided me correctly how I can structure a reply and put forth my thoughts ie Paradigms, and counter the other paradigms other posters have. Fair enough.

My Paradigm : All Hindus have to understand only 4 terms 1. Dharma., 2. Artha., 3. Kaama., 4. Moksha. They are called Purusharthas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puru%E1%B9%A3%C4%81rtha

Understanding Dharma is the most complicated one but is required. Here I need to explain my own understanding of Dharma,

The Closest meaning of Dharma is the "Natural Properties of Materials" such as Water is liquid, Air is gaseous, etc., so the Humans have been given with "Dharma - Adharma Vichakshana" ie an ability to identify the nature of his environment. Animals don't have such an ability. they have only instincts such as if they are hungry, they hunt, if they have an urge to mate, they mate, but Humans don't need to hunt for food when they are hungry, as he could keep stock of rice and pulses and cook and eat in the home itself. they can marry and mate. etc., This can be explained mathematically. for example, God (Paramatma) is a 10 dimensional Object, Animals are 4-Dimensional Objects, Humans(Atma) are 5-Dimensional Objects and they have in addition to what Animals have a Dimension called "Buddhi" or "Intellect". The Inert objects that you see are called pancha bhootas (1.Air 2.Water 3.Earth 4.Sky 5.Fire) they are 3-Dimensional Objects. If you give the 4th Dimension of Manassu (Instincts) these Panchabhootas become Animals. If you can add another Dimension called Buddhi, these animals become Humans. Now when you have Intellect, it means you can distinguish what is "Dharma" what is "Adharma". if you are not using your intellect, you will become an animal, still live in a jungle. but the humans have an urge to become part of "paramatma" ie the humans, with "Buddhi" can add another 5-dimensions and become 10-dimensional object at which time, the "atma" becomes "Paramatma" (A feeling of Tat Tvam Asi). This is called Moksha.

So a Human is Atma. Atma is nothing but your intellect, a chaitanya, and Atma does not have any end. Its part of Paramatma which has not yet attained the state of Paramatma. Assuming that your Atma leaves your body, your body will mix with the panchabhootas, your Atma will seek another body in the womb of a mother. its a cycle, you wear a body, you leave a body and you wear a body again.

So How can you attain Moksha? That is where the Karma comes into picture. To control your "Manassu" (4-Dimension and Animal Instincts), you need Artha and Kaama. More basic question is Why should I control my "Manassu"? because to realize the next dimension, you need to control your Manassu, which is living in Maya. Now What is Maya? Maya is illusion, a feeling that you are your body, what you have around you belongs to you, etc. So what causes this Maya or Illusion? Arishadvargas,
(1. Kaama (this Kaama means 'desires' it is different from the Purushaartha Kaama which means Sex),
2.Krodha (there is a good book by David Goleman 'emotional Intelligence' which explains about Krodha very legibly),
3.Lobha (I don't want to share with anybody),
4.Moha (love),
5.Mada (I only greatest),
6.Matsara (the other fella, how did he get it? I will destroy him))

These control your 'Manassu'. so you need to get rid of these 6 emotions. In order to get rid of these 6 avarodhas you need "ARTHA" and "KAAMA" which are obtained by "Karma"

Now Karma is a tricky one, it has two byproducts - 1.Punya 2. Paapa. The Problem with these by-products is that they attach to your "ATMA", so even after you die (ie when you leave your body), These two by-products will not let you(AATMA) attain the next Dimension. So you do "karma phala thyagam" through Bhakti Yoga. Bhakti Yoga means, pleading to the Paramatma that you don't want the Paapa or Punya to attach to your ATMA so that you can attain Moksha.

So now you are a bhakta of the Paramatma and you have complete freedom of doing your KARMA to get the "ARTHA" and "KAAMA".

Now comes the task of getting "ARTHA" and "KAAMA". I will not touch the subject of "KAAMA" or "KAAMA Sutra" but touch the subject of "ARTHA" which is a goal in every Hindu's life.

Now "ARTHA SHAASTRA".


Now the most basic question is, what is ARTHA ? ARTHA is nothing but "Lakshmi" ie "Dhana, Kanaka, Vastu, Vaahana, Aayuhu, Aarogya, Aiswarya, putra, poutra".

Next question is, why you need ARTHA? You need ARTHA to conduct your DHARMA. It means, humans have to do certain dharmic karma's such as 'shraddha karmas' to get rid of 'pitru RuNam', to pay 'guru dakshina' when they are in 'Bramhacharya ashramam', 'marriage' or 'kanyadaanam', for 'athidhi maryada', for 'naama karaNam', for 'Aksharaabhyasa', for 'siksha of children', to 'nomulu' 'vrathas', for 'theerthayatras', 'pushkara snanas' , marriages of children, to take care of parents when they are in old age. To do 'Karma kaandas' , to take care of widowed sisters and their families, and for n number of other rituals.


Next question is, what if I skip any of these karma's?
You will get another Birth to fulfill the skipped KARMAs. So don't have a choice to skip any of these. मा ते संगोस्तु विकर्मणि।

How much ARTHA you require to fulfill your karma's? There's no limit, यथा शक्ति. As long as you don't insult the ARTHA it stays with you. The moment you insult ARTHA, it goes away.
సిరి దా వచ్చిన వచ్చును
సలలితముగ నారికేళ సలిలము భంగిన్
సిరి దాఁ బోయిన బోవును
కరిమింగిన వెలగపండు కరణిని సుమతీ!

Lakshmi doesn't reside when you are dirty.
తల మాసిన, నొలు మాసిన,
వలువలు మాసినను బ్రాణ వల్లభునైనన్‌
గులకాంతలైన రోతురు
తిలకింపగ భూమిలోన దిరముగ సుమతీ!

Lakshmi also doesn't reside when your wife weeps,
కులకాంతతొడ నెప్పుడు
గలహింపకు వట్టి తప్పు ఘటియింపకుమీ
కలకంఠి కంటి కన్నీ
రొలికిన సిరి ఇంటనుండ దొల్లదు సుమతీ !

What if I spend less and save more? You are not controlling 'Lobha' you will take another Birth to make your 'manassu' clean of "Lobha'. यथा शक्ति means, for example, this year you do "केदारीश्वरी व्रतं" with mud pots as you are not able to afford, next year you will attain capacity to do the same ritual with silver pots, the subsequent years you would be able to do with more and more wealth.

What if I am left with more ARTHA, even after I do the rituals? You can do more dharmic karma's by taking care of the cows and bramhanas. They is no upper limit to ARTHA, keep on earning more and more ARTHA till you attain 'vairagya'.

When I get 'vairagya'? You will automatically get 'vairagya' only when you get ARTHA and KAAMA, and it is going to add one more dimension in the path of moksha . without 'vairagya', you will take another Birth to achieve ARTHA and KAAMA.

Once you achieve ''vairagya', you achieve 'Rajayoga' which is a complete control over your yourself. (No more arishadvargas) Everybody Will follow you. The next step is bhamhayoga, you will achieve supernatural powers, you are only one step behind attaining MOKSHA.

When will I attain MOKSHA? The DHARMA that you have achieved has taken you this far... You will achieve MOKSHA only when you give up DHARMA.
सर्व धर्मान परित्यज्य माम् एकम सरणं व्रज : I
अहम त्वाम सर्व पापेभ्यो मोक्ष्य इस्यामि माँ शुच :II

https://youtu.be/gAbaR5sqPxI

End of my paradigm.


This is what I have been told by my father, my gurus, my neighbours, my friends' parents etc, even uneducated peons used to talk about DHARMA as I narrated above, since I have been conscious. So I thought all Hindus have the same paradigm.

I came to know that 'Dipavali' which is a Hindu festival can be celebrated without firecrackers from some of the forumites, who are Hindus. I felt ridiculous. I have another paradigm that Hinduism is not dead yet. But declining rapidly. My sister who recently visited south Korea cultural festival, has an opinion that, India may also become a country, where we may have to show our cultural heritage of bharat natyam and kuchipudi to foreign cultural deligates, with exchange programs, you know it's so much expensive to practice in households in India.

Now coming back to black money discussion, for a person like me with such a paradigm, it is difficult understand that there is only black money or white money, I earn my money dharmically, I don't want to pay more than 1/6th of my income as tax. Even manusmriti says, a king can collect 1/6th of dhanyam from the farmers. As I pay VAT I don't want to pay income tax, as the law provides for such exemptions. It's still dharmic only, I get lakhs of rupees when I sell my scrap, if I don't show that in my books, it doesn't automatically turn black. But if I kill someone and do theft, then only it's black. Otherwise if my scrap money I use it for adharmic purposes, then it's not black money, and punishable offense. If I use my money in fulfilling my Dharma then it's not black money. I want to feel my wealth, till I attain 'vairagya'.

I want to donate money to Tirupati hundi, as the Lord Venkateswara has borrowed money from kubera for an interest, now it's the duty of every Hindu to put the money into hundi, so that the God won't default. I don't want the government to take away my offerings to subsidise hazz pilgrimage. I don't want the government employees show disrespect to me, and still want me to pay income tax. I have that autonomy, whereas the salaried class doesn't have such luxury. Let those people live and suck up like that. I went through such horrible times that nobody cared for me when I needed money. Now I have sufficient money and I want to spend more on my own welfare,

In fact i visited a swamiji after i failed in my first business, i asked " swamiji should i start anither business or should I join a company as employee?". He asked me " what do you want to do? " i said, "i want to do another business, in fact I wanted you to tell me how my " jataka" is. Is it going to be successful? Is it the right time for me to start another business?". He looked into my 'jataka' and said you are going to fail in the business. I told him "then i will search for a job" he said, "moorkhuda, jataka will tell about about your prarabdakarma phalas, but you can carve out your own destination if you do your karmas according to dharma. otherwise I will have to take another Birth to attain MOKSHA, after i succeed in business".

I started my next business and promptly failed, another business, failed again, finally succeeded.

no I don't want to accumulate regret, oh I didn't do that, I didn't do this etc in this life time. I don't even know how many more births I need to take to attain MOKSHA.

End of trolling.

DavidD wrote:

asgkhan wrote:^^ That is a pseudo-liberal-patronizing argument. The chemo-therapy to remove the cancer caused by congress will be painful.

Dunno about villages, but there are no queues in front of ATMs. Banks are back to normal.

But that's the thing, isn't it? What do BRFites know about the villages? Every story I've seen posted here is about someone's experience from cities that even a foreigner like me has heard of. What about the villages? Given that most there don't have bank accounts, smart phones, or even internet access, chances are they're not experiencing demonetization the same way posters here are.

In villages, how many actually use 1k or 500 denominations. Most of them live below poverty line. This is like shifting goalposts and use the shoulders of poor people to fire the gun against the demonitisation exercise.

asgkhan wrote: In villages, how many actually use 1k or 500 denominations. Most of them live below poverty line. This is like shifting goalposts and use the shoulders of poor people to fire the gun against the demonitisation exercise.

That's a good question, anybody got an answer for that?

DavidD wrote:

asgkhan wrote:^^ That is a pseudo-liberal-patronizing argument. The chemo-therapy to remove the cancer caused by congress will be painful.

Dunno about villages, but there are no queues in front of ATMs. Banks are back to normal.

But that's the thing, isn't it? What do BRFites know about the villages? Every story I've seen posted here is about someone's experience from cities that even a foreigner like me has heard of. What about the villages? Given that most there don't have bank accounts, smart phones, or even internet access, chances are they're not experiencing demonetization the same way posters here are.

I live in a village. People in villages have more bandwidth and capacity for pain but things are slowly starting to get bad on rural economic front. Shops are relatively empty, though I do not know exact statistic but from the looks of it business could be down by 25%. No traffic on roads etc. There is a daily wager who comes and tills the land etc who does not accept cheque, PayTM or card. He is not getting much work because I am in no mood to spare 6X100 in these times (his wages). Agricultural produce is not finding much buyers in market too and prices are getting diminished so purchasing power will reduce. Cooperatives used to be an important avenue for farmers to obtain cheap loans etc, and now there is uncertainty on that front, result will be known in a few months as what they do without that credit. People are hoping that this phase is temporary but nobody is certain about future.

David, most have connections to villages with relatives, friends living there, so we are not so out of touch. I have personal info from village areas around Khatauli, Bulandshahar of UP, and Suratgarh, Anupgarh of Rajasthan, their is scarcity of cash, but its all working out people are bearing up patiently. The village folks in Bharat are used to all sorts of problems. A bus which is supposed to come once a day lets' say 10 O' clock in the morning may come at 2 PM in noon, I have seen 20 people old men/women, children, daughter in law coming on a treeless grassless road, with water suraahis and food plus muchies and waiting patiently, I was so freaked out that I was vomiting panicking, and they took care of me also, gave me herbs and nimbu paani, so I could cope.

Little kids walk 4 miles to other village in heat, rain, winter to go to schools...

Our Prime Minister himself comes from such an ancient village, you might know that when President Xi came he brought a present from China telling NaMo that Huan Sang came from his own village to NaMo's village centuries ago.

NaMo's family still lives very humbly and he is completely in touch with, more than cash the credit works through village lives, so yes there is problem but Bharatiya Jugaad is working.

Liquidity crunch has to be addressed ASAP. I hope RBI can get the banks to calibrate and increase the re-load frequency of ATMs with 100s.

Gus wrote: bad part for them.

Kashi wrote:So why is this a bad part? This should be the good part no?

Used the word "bad part", because I don't know if these fellows opening/using thier accounts would be of any use to RBI or GoI in this excercise. The banks are also at fault at giving loans to all kind of shady people. Because of this their own NPAs increased. Now that the GoI has launched this drive, the banks are trying to recover the losses which were caused by their own negligence. But even with this, if the economy (as a whole) is going to improve then perhaps it is okay.

asgkhan wrote:In villages, how many actually use 1k or 500 denominations. Most of them live below poverty line.

The villages I know of (not very many, though & most of them in KL) have a different kind of economy. One thing, the person to person trust is very high out there. So most of the people do get stuff on credit from say vegetable vendors or shop keepers. These vegetable vendors and shop keepers also know how much of a sales volume do they expect, and do not stock too many things. The new notes in circulation generally reaches these villages when folks who stay in the village, but work in a near by town comes back. So sooner or later, these villages also would get their new notes automatically.

But one thing is that many people do have loans, invariably coming from the "Primary Cooperative Banks". They have higher interest rates, but the loans are given out without much due diligence. So any thing which has an impact on these Co.Op "banks" may have an effect on them.

As I posted before, I travelled some 1300 km on the road in AP and TS last week and found no visible problems. But there were lines before banks in my hometown. The problem mainly is with the people refusing to come into formal banking and even big doctors not willing to take checks etc. The reason is they do not want to pay tax etc.

AP and TS is one state/two states were there is not much drama around banks & ATMs. What is the secret to that ?

Manish_Sharma wrote:David, most have connections to villages with relatives, friends living there, so we are not so out of touch. I have personal info from village areas around Khatauli, Bulandshahar of UP, and Suratgarh, Anupgarh of Rajasthan, their is scarcity of cash, but its all working out people are bearing up patiently. The village folks in Bharat are used to all sorts of problems. A bus which is supposed to come once a day lets' say 10 O' clock in the morning may come at 2 PM in noon, I have seen 20 people old men/women, children, daughter in law coming on a treeless grassless road, with water suraahis and food plus muchies and waiting patiently, I was so freaked out that I was vomiting panicking, and they took care of me also, gave me herbs and nimbu paani, so I could cope.

Little kids walk 4 miles to other village in heat, rain, winter to go to schools...

Our Prime Minister himself comes from such an ancient village, you might know that when President Xi came he brought a present from China telling NaMo that Huan Sang came from his own village to NaMo's village centuries ago.

NaMo's family still lives very humbly and he is completely in touch with, more than cash the credit works through village lives, so yes there is problem but Bharatiya Jugaad is working.

Thank you for the reply. Thanks to the others as well, replies are coming in quicker than I can respond to! I understand that the rural folks may have higher tolerance for pain, it's the same way in China. People tolerate the toxic soil/water and whatnot because at least they're not facing imminent starvation every day as they did not too long ago. However, it just seems to me like this very sudden demonetization drive offers little benefit at disproportionate cost to those who can least afford it, as Larry Summers' blog aptly pointed out. There may be longer term negative effects as well. Undoubtedly there will be some faith lost in the paper currency, yet internet and smartphone penetration cannot be raised overnight. How can people keep liquid if they have to rely on either technology they have no access to or paper currency that people have no faith in?

habal wrote:AP and TS is one state/two states were there is not much drama around banks & ATMs. What is the secret to that ?

I am also bit surprised about it. My hometown is mainly trading one and lot of issues were there, but the trade did not stop. I faced problems because of ill health of my mother which I could solve. One possible reason may be large transactions being done by trade credit and other informal credit channels. People do lend at 2% to 10% per month in AP, and it is a big business there. So people may have scope to sustain for few days.

One set of titbits I have to share here. My car was checked three times by police as they think I am a marwadi and the car looked quite old for a marwadi and I may be transporting cash. All in one day. My sisters and mother were asked by their neighbours about depositing their notes in our accounts, and my sister told that they all reached limits because of the money deposited by me and almost everyone was sympathetic and asked how much I lost. They all assumed as a senior public servant I "lost" a lot of money.

^^^^^^ Please don't be overly influenced by Larry's blog. The one-time benefit of Demonetization might be limited. It is the recurring effect, by bring a much larger number of citizens under the tax radar, which will be the bigger gain by far.

SBI, HDFC Bank to accept UPI payments

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 109_1.html

Digital transactions in banking sector going up: SBI

http://www.financialexpress.com/industr ... bi/454902/

Demonetisation: Govt teams to make countrywide assessment by Friday

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 057_1.html

Agree. The GOI shall soon ensure almost all the traders; professionals do business in more formal setting. Further need to remove stamp duty and registrations charges which generate a lot of black money in real estate. Large scale dismantling of Licence, permit quota raj is also a must.

yensoy wrote:^^^^^^ Please don't be overly influenced by Larry's blog. The one-time benefit of Demonetization might be limited. It is the recurring effect, by bring a much larger number of citizens under the tax radar, which will be the bigger gain by far.

He specifically mentions in his blog that he supports demonetization, multiple times in fact, but just not the execution of it by the GOI.

Fixed charge for registration of real estate will go a long way to remove underreporting of price in real estate

DavidD wrote:

yensoy wrote:^^^^^^ Please don't be overly influenced by Larry's blog. The one-time benefit of Demonetization might be limited. It is the recurring effect, by bring a much larger number of citizens under the tax radar, which will be the bigger gain by far.

He specifically mentions in his blog that he supports demonetization, multiple times in fact, but just not the execution of it by the GOI.

David,

Here is a point by point rebuttal of the blog post by Larry Summers. No need to waste time rehashing on this forum what has already been articulated in the public domain.

http://swarajyamag.com/economy/larry-su ... o-convince

FORGOT PASSWORD?
Profile
Logout
ExploreSwarajyaSEARCH
TODAY
INSTA
WEEKEND
MAGAZINE
ECONOMY
Larry Summers’ Fluffy Piece On Demonetisation Fails To Convince
Rupa Subramanya - November 22, 2016, 9:55 pm
Shares 264

Larry Summers’ Fluffy Piece On Demonetisation Fails To Convince
SNAPSHOT
Even though he presents no hard evidence for his assertions, Larry Summers doesn’t shy away from making them nonetheless, writes Rupa Subramanya

India, where slavish adherence to authority and credentials seems to be hardwired more than sifting arguments and evidence, it’s not surprising that a throw away blog post co-written by celebrity economist Larry Summers and Natasha Sarin has received so much play.

Normally, a 140 character tweet should be enough to respond to this fluff but in India anything said by a celebrity is taken seriously, like the pronouncement of an oracle.

Let’s take the first two paragraphs which are introductory and tell us nothing new except the authors were surprised like everyone else by Modi’s announcement to demonetise Rs. 500 and Rs 1000 notes on November 8. The next six paragraphs follow which contain their argument, if you can call it that.

So what are you telling us we didn’t know, Larry and Natasha?

First, you point out that high value notes are in common use in India. Yes thanks Larry and Natasha, we in India knew that already given that the old notes represented 86 per cent of the value of currency in circulation at the time of demonetisation. But perhaps your American readers will have learned something new when you tell them Rs 500 notes are used widely in India.

Second, you tell us this is not demonetisation but a currency swap of old notes for news notes. Again we already knew this but then you add gratuitous “facts” that small and medium sized merchants have seen their shops deserted. While this was reported in the immediate aftermath after demonetisation, it’s no longer widely the case. Business is gradually getting back to normal, so your facts are out of date.

Third, you tell us that many people who hold large amounts of cash came by this in corrupt or illegal ways. This is a powerful insight from a former US Treasury Secretary and we in India would never have figured this out otherwise if not for this blog post.

Fourth, you make a dubious normative judgment when you assert a free society would rather let several criminals go free than convict an innocent man. As it happens “different societies” make different choices. So in the country in which you live, many states have capital punishment because they prefer the deterrent and punitive value of capital punishment over the prospect of a few innocent people being put to death. Meanwhile, other free societies such as Canada don’t have capital punishment for the reasons you hold. The basic point is, well meaning people will come to a different assessment of the trade off you imply.

You further confuse your argument by asserting that what is illegal or corrupt is open to debate.

I doubt very much you, Larry, would have made such an argument when you were Treasury Secretary. But abiding by the law applies in civilised countries like the US but should be ignored in poor countries like India, right? Would you have said as Treasury Secretary that US tax laws are complex so illegality or tax evasion should be a matter of debate? I don’t think so.

Fifth, you tell us you strongly suspect a lot of black money has been laundered into property, foreign exchange, gold etc. Again we needed the penetrating insight of the nephew of two Nobel economists to tell us this since we had no idea.

Sixth, we also were clueless about the fact that a one time currency swap does not fix the long-term roots of corruption. Except for the fact that many including this author and others have repeatedly pointed that out in saying that the currency swap is not a magic bullet but a one time tax on black money. And further reforms need to follow in order to tackle the sources of black money.

But the most egregious is your conclusion where you let the cat out of the bag that you’ve already prejudged what you’re going to say by asserting you were never enthusiastic about demonetising high value notes. It’s not surprising therefore that you don’t favour India’s move.

But the truly most egregious is the last sentence where you assert without evidence there is “ongoing chaos” in India and this has resulted in a loss of “trust” in the government. Let’s parse both claims.

Given that life is gradually returning to normal, “ongoing chaos” is an exaggeration, at best. While the temporary liquidity crunch is affecting markets which have been historically cash-based, the introduction of the new 500 and 2000 rupee notes, and the switch away from cash toward electronic payments, suggests we are on the path toward a return to normalcy, even if the situation is not yet fully back to normal. This is a far cry from “ongoing chaos”.

However, given that this is still an unfolding event, and given how treacherous it is to generalize from a few anecdotal accounts in newspapers and from speaking to people on the ground, I would hesitate making a sweeping assertion. This seems to be no problem for you, however.

Even more problematic, you provide absolutely no evidence of a loss in trust in the government. This is a fact free judgment like your claim, Larry, that hate crimes have spiked since Donald Trump’s victory. Here are two blog posts (first, second) that debunk this fact free claim of a spike in hate crimes.

If you’ve seen opinion polls which suggest a drop in trust for Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his government, you should share them with us as I’ve just shared information debunking your view that hate crimes have spiked in the US. Now this truly would be new information to your Indian readers. Otherwise we only have your word on it from your perch in Harvard Square.

But of course I’m not a world famous economist, all I can do is sift facts and arguments to see if they make sense. By that score, your fluffy piece failed to convince.

Post-script: As it happens, shortly after this piece was published, C-Voter came out with a survey suggesting a large majority of Indians support Prime Minister’s Narendra Modi’s currency swap. As reported here, 1,212 were surveyed across 252 parliamentary constituencies. About 87 per cent of respondents felt that the currency swap was harming those with black money and 85 per cent felt that the temporary hardship was worth it. Furthermore, given much touted implementation glitches, more than 66 percent thought this was both a good step and well-implemented. So over to you Larry and Natasha.

Registration Fee and Stamp Duty ( which is a colonial time evil which provides no service to people in return) have to go. In the case of registration at least there is some good service by way of keeping records of the things done etc, and the fee shall be fixed say at 1000/- for all the documents, and that is all. This only stops a lot of black money generation in RE.

http://www.oneindia.com/india/demonetis ... 71488.html

Former PM Manmohan Singh is an eminent economist. PM Narendra Modi must take his point of view seriously: Uddhav Thackeray

What drama next???

Been to natives in weekend. Rural areas in KAR too is handling the situation well. No regional channels shouting about lines. They do not have more than 500 rs in pocket to exchange. The costly purchases are being done in old notes. The shopkeepers accepting it since they have time till DEC to deposit and their transactions will be less than 2 lakhs during this period.

As I said lot of drama going on.


Speaker Sumitra Mahajan said that a man — Rakesh Singh — tried to jump in the Lok Sabha off the audience gallery on Friday after the House was adjourned. "Security officials overpowered him and took him under custody and he has been let off with warning," Mahajan added.

Rudradev,

It's not a rebuttal, it's in fact an affirmation for the vast majority of his points except with a flippant attitude. It doesn't even address the most important point of Summers' argument, which is that while he supports demonetization, he thinks the way the GOI did, which is a sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency, causes more harm than good. The only thing this "rebuttal" actually disagrees with Summers on is whether there's still "chaos" or not. There may not be riots on the streets, but I'd say a drop of GDP growth from around 7% to 0.5% is gonna bite, and that it'd be entirely avoidable had demonetization been executed differently (i.e., no sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency).

DavidD wrote: But that's the thing, isn't it? What do BRFites know about the villages? Every story I've seen posted here is about someone's experience from cities that even a foreigner like me has heard of. What about the villages? Given that most there don't have bank accounts, smart phones, or even internet access, chances are they're not experiencing demonetization the same way posters here are.

Dear DavidD., what do you know about cheen? From whatever you told us about cheen., it is a utopia with skyscrapers taller than mountains and banks with credit sweeter than honey. What do we know about interior of cheen where those poor rice eating straw hat wearing peasants do need a visa to get to the city?

Just FYI., the mobile penetration is deep and everybody and their nephew in villages is using JDAM. No not the talibunnies you recruit from your bakistani friends to spread terror., but real Jan Dhan Adhaar and Mobile.

DavidD wrote: However, it just seems to me like this very sudden demonetization drive offers little benefit at disproportionate cost to those who can least afford it, as Larry Summers' blog aptly pointed out.

nonsense. They are one of the biggest beneficiaries.

the value of what little they hold/can earn has gone up. no more hoarding-speculation runs on essentials due to black money removal. The windfall from the deposits will be used for schemes targeting them.

most of all, the local big guys who lorded over them with stashes of black money, is now cut to size.

DavidD wrote: it'd be entirely avoidable had demonetization been executed differently (i.e., no sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency).

that tells me you have read only a certain narrative and come here to post instead of reading what we post here and then presume to tell us that we don't know our own villages.

DavidD wrote:Rudradev,

It's not a rebuttal, it's in fact an affirmation for the vast majority of his points except with a flippant attitude. It doesn't even address the most important point of Summers' argument, which is that while he supports demonetization, he thinks the way the GOI did, which is a sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency, causes more harm than good. The only thing this "rebuttal" actually disagrees with Summers on is whether there's still "chaos" or not. There may not be riots on the streets, but I'd say a drop of GDP growth from around 7% to 0.5% is gonna bite, and that it'd be entirely avoidable had demonetization been executed differently (i.e., no sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency).

The reason for the sudden and abrupt demonetization was secrecy. That aim was achieved.

There is some discomfort that has been experienced by some folks and also there will always be naysayers, come what may. The GOI is actively addressing those legitimate concerns to mitigate the discomfort.

This govt has the mandate and the support of the general public and the govt has taken some steps, in it's wisdom. We will face the consequences, if any and continue on our way.

The relevance of quoting larry summers and some other puff pieces in foreign journals is not really understood. We neither care for nor will we heed such false Cassandras.

why does an ass like summers and others of his ilk wake up from deep sleep and suddenly start to comment on India??

or is the lefty itch in their collective tighty whitey breeches starting to twitch??

Gus wrote:

DavidD wrote: it'd be entirely avoidable had demonetization been executed differently (i.e., no sudden withdrawal of currently circulating currency).

that tells me you have read only a certain narrative and come here to post instead of reading what we post here and then presume to tell us that we don't know our own villages.

Best to ignore the nay-sayers and outsiders. Everybody and their uncle outside India seem to know what is best !!!

mean-e-while, in the land of melanin laced milk and fake honey :

https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/ ... s_selling/

More people in India have Aadhaar card than debit cards and bank accounts. Make Aadhaar a stored value, NFC card to ramp up financial inclusion.

I was surprised this morning to see my payTM limit increased to 20k until I saw the news item posted in this thread. payTM has a 'nearby' option which lists all outlets near you which accept payTM.

I needed some hardware for my Goa,house, so, Yesterday I went to Bhori Ali in Pune. Bhori Ali is the wholesale market for all,types of hardware. As you would expect, Bhori Ali shops owners are the leading lights and torch bearers for honesty, tax compliance, correct invoicing and polite behaviour.

After plodding the lanes, I finally found one with a VISA sticker. In I went, and was brusquely greeted with "Kaunsa note Hai" (which notes do,you have" to which I retorted (I am retorting a lot these days) 'card leta hai to note ka kyon poochta hai"

Shop owner Father and son exchanged glances. I bought my hardware, paid by card and walked away happy.

The shop was owned by a certain 'minority' community, the type that TSP would refuse to acknowledge as being part of a 'minority' community