Indo-UK: News & Discussion

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 30 Jul 2010 19:18

The measuring index that is used (as Brihaspati said) is certainly true. It is geared towards papers published and also alumni achievements. But we can easily develop other indexes and rank and rate universities. Also, many post that many Indain institutes get highly rated (or better rated) more due to their alumni achievents rather than innate contributions of the institution.

Germans and to a larger extent Japanese come to American Universities (especially at PG level). The reverse is not really true. There is a way that the society can utilize the talents of the university, but the university also needs to develop the talent regardless of how it is utilized.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Jul 2010 19:33

I am aware of quite a few top German mathematicians visiting certain institutes in India regularly, one I know does so every year. There are some new uni-uni research collaboration agreements due to be signed with German unis. Has been recent overtures from Japan.

I think the stress was more on the Indian side leaning towards UK and USA rather than huge reluctance on Germana nd Japan part. Moreover they could have effectively been indirectly warned off from India as Anglo-saxon sphere of influence while they were still not so independent of US rule. I remember the most reputed bank in India having counters at airports disdainfully said to me once - "we only take Sterling pounds and dollars" when I had wanted to exchange a pre-Euro period currency. The infinite arrogance on the face of both the lady and the guy made my blood boil nearly. Had it been 10 years earlier I would probably have taken time to pursue to see that those two suffered for their tendencies. There is an attitude in the Indian establishment, probably taking cues from their political bosses [or their bosses learned it from them] - that only the Anglo-Saxon in anything is the best!

The other thing apart from colonial hangover is the pre-learned language compatibility from Indian side - that worked against Germany and Japan.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Jul 2010 19:37

Congress could have hesitations about Cameron because of possible close ties with Labour and Labour must be livid about Cameron's visit and anti-Pak statements. Come on - Cong-Labour is much closer in colour and thinking on all the right issues and "politically correct enemies" - and more distant from the Conservatives.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Jul 2010 19:44

Munna,you are mistaken.The first Pro-India salvo was in fact fired by Mr.Hague last month,which made front page news in the UK.I was there at the time and have the cutting.The new Conservative led govt. have a different agenda with regard to foreign policy compared with the toadying of the US under Tony Blair,who preferred to be Bush's poodle and the Stalinist arrogance of Gordon Brown.Labour took Britain into "hard labour" in Iraq and Afghanistan,two most unpopular wars with the populace.In addition,the new dispensation realise well that the world is multi-polar and India's significance in it,along with Brazil,Russia and China are the flavours of the first half of the 21st. century.David Cameron is alive to the changing power structure around the globe and wants Britain to be part of this change not playing the role of "butler" at the White House.He has his own agenda and wants to make Britain stand tall again.The present time is a time of opportunity for both nations and Indo-British ties have centuries of history experienncing both good and bad times.

Cameron's acknowledgement of India's stature and his robust diatribe against Paki terror can only be applauded.India now has an important ally in the west with whom it can leverage much to our mutual benefit.
When "Milli-Bond" was For.Sec.,he deliberately tried to relight Cold War atmospherics with his diatribes against Russia over Georgia's misplaced adventurism and attempts with disgraced oligarchs in exile, to smear Putin over several issues including the assassination of minor defector Litvinenko."Ignoramus Milli-bondus" was a cartoon character who has strutted briefly upon Britain's political stage in Act 1 of the current political "play" now being performed in Blighty.Whether he will be play a leading in Act 2 is in doubt given his past poor performance.Nevertheless,"every court must have its clown"!

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Jul 2010 19:48

It is all very well to be well-rounded (more a function, perhaps, of one's definition than intrinsic ability), but the fact remains that the western, Anglo-Saxon world is phenomenally productive. The graduate student Russian may give you the ab initio quantum mechanics description of a transition state but it is likely the American who produces the idea for it and the catalysts. he may be happily naive of the intellectual beauty, deferring it to the specialist.

Having collaborated on NMR of genetically proteins when the approach was hot, we managed to publish in the best specialist publications. But only because it was an interdisciplinary approach.

I cannot imagine any postdoc being equally competent in both fields within six months and generating useful data.

I now have occasion to employ the fruits of biotechnology. I employ almost no Japanese innovations.

munna · Post by **munna** » 30 Jul 2010 19:54

Philip wrote:Munna,you are mistaken.

Err Philip sir I think there is a misunderstanding as I have been saying the same things as you have in your post. Where is the disagreement?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Jul 2010 20:06

I did not typify only national innate abilities. The context of my post was about educational method. I have not found any significantly greater innovative idea generation capacity in the Anglo Saxon as a race compared to the Russians or the Japanese. Moreover, it is the Anglo-Saxon which seems to have the reputation of going gaga over "academic beauty" - most Russians and Germans I know of are quite non-poetical and have difficulty it seems to express such profound emotions.

Interdisciplinary collaboration increases the chances of innovation - it is a probabilistic conclusion that does not need any racial profiling. But given other things equal, the educational mindset imparted to the researcher may make a difference. question was whether we really gain by "following only" or take indepndent initiative tod o thinsg also on our own and lead. There are areas where we will always be shut out selectively so that there is a lag between us.

I guess its a business approach. For many of the indian business who helped the Brits to take over in India, it was a question of "interdisciplinary approach" for quick market capture and share of profits. Developing something with the other was faster, defintely. By not trying to attain and keep ahead on their own they ultimately gave up any advantage they had altogether and became "dalaals" and "mutsuddis" -that is the danger of over-reliance on making a quick buck.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Jul 2010 20:22

one area where indian educational systems really need to learn more from others is about producing graduates who can actually think for themselves and not just churn out text book learning with high precision. i have interviewed class toppers from some of the best universities in India and found several of them to be significantly weaker at basic problem solving than their 2nd or 3rd quartile colleagues. the anglo saxon system seems to develop this quality further. There is a systemic weakness in India regarding innovation, apart from Tata, how many private enterprises actually spend any real money on decent R&D?
(lets move to relevant thread...)

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Jul 2010 20:34

According to IE, Sonia's mother is apparently very ill and in US, so the Gandhi family had to leave for US immediately

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jul 2010 20:40

brihaspati wrote:Congress could have hesitations about Cameron because of possible close ties with Labour and Labour must be livid about Cameron's visit and anti-Pak statements. Come on - Cong-Labour is much closer in colour and thinking on all the right issues and "politically correct enemies" - and more distant from the Conservatives.

B-ji,

Read this post http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 76#p901976

The INC and Liberal party relationships go back to INC creation days. Some Liberal party MPs joined INC and became its party presidents.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 30 Jul 2010 21:15

Royal Theft
David Cameron ambushed on Indian TV over 105-carat Koh-i-noor diamond as country demands its return

The 105-carat diamond was seized by the East India Company after the capture of Punjab in 1849 and later presented as a gift to Queen Victoria...Mr Cameron said returning the legendary diamond to India would set a dangerous precedent for other priceless cultural items held in British museums.

Had an interesting convo with a son of a prominent Islamic cleric in the UK. His father is leading the front against the Wahabbi's/ Al Muhajiroun types. He showed me photo's of one of the largest anti-wahabbi marches that took place in London earlier in the year. Unfortunately not much media attention.

Convo touched on Zakir Naik who he calls a Wahabbi and how his father hates him and calls him Zakir Nallaaik (Does that mean crazy in Hindi/urdu/panjabi?).

Impressed at the level of knowledge on the veda's and tri-murthy. And his views on Islam in India.

munna · Post by **munna** » 30 Jul 2010 21:19

shyamd wrote:Zakir Nallaaik (Does that mean crazy in Hindi/urdu/panjabi?).

Nallaaik == Naa + Layak (Not + Competent) ie Incompetent in Hindi/Punjabi and urdu

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Jul 2010 21:22

Impressive. David Cameron came either well prepared or grownup among folks like us

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Jul 2010 21:29

And Cameron has a point there. Returning Kohinoor amounts to undoing of queen's crown. Too much Ech end Dee involved here.

I would rather start with numerous Hindu idols/sculptures present in British museums. Perhaps India can build suitable cultural museums in India and Britain can fill them. This can be a good Indo-Britain friendship theme.

Imagine a sprawling Indic cultural museam in Bharat proper where thousands of Natarajas, Arthanariswaras, Vignesas and Vishnus abide...

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 30 Jul 2010 21:35

Question for UK and London watchers? Is it true that expat Indians or UK citizens of Indian origin actually own 40% of London real estate?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 30 Jul 2010 21:39

the idea of rotating museums has been proposed by the greeks i think, that way 'global heritage items' can be shown around the world, have a 'home' museum for h&d purposes and a 'true home' where it spends most time

Mupalla - on real estate, i dont think so; the biggest owners are the crown, HMG (Not the same), prince charles as duke of cornwall, some of the old aristocrats - grosvenor, etc. and ofcourse big corporations, including mittal and paul, etc. indians probably make up 10% of the greater london population and would therefore probably own ~8% of homes (in a city of 10M+ people)

(edited poor maths)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Jul 2010 21:56

shyamd wrote:Royal Theft
David Cameron ambushed on Indian TV over 105-carat Koh-i-noor diamond as country demands its return
The 105-carat diamond was seized by the East India Company after the capture of Punjab in 1849 and later presented as a gift to Queen Victoria...Mr Cameron said returning the legendary diamond to India would set a dangerous precedent for other priceless cultural items held in British museums.
Had an interesting convo with a son of a prominent Islamic cleric in the UK. His father is leading the front against the Wahabbi's/ Al Muhajiroun types. He showed me photo's of one of the largest anti-wahabbi marches that took place in London earlier in the year. Unfortunately not much media attention.

Convo touched on Zakir Naik who he calls a Wahabbi and how his father hates him and calls him Zakir Nallaaik (Does that mean crazy in Hindi/urdu/panjabi?).

Impressed at the level of knowledge on the veda's and tri-murthy. And his views on Islam in India.

Na-layak should mean immature, irresponsible, adolescent etc. The opposition against ZN is most strongly led by a section of Sunni and Arab inspired clerics. The points of criticism should be asked to be clarified - that will reveal the real reasons for criticizing ZN. He was widely supported in UK as along as he was dissing out on Christians and Hindus. Recently he has let it go to his head and started charting out typical "Indic" style Islamic "heresies" - hence the angst. Channels still not entirely under Saudi influence among the ummannels (umma-channel) continue to broadcast multilingual casts of ZN's tirade on non-Muslims. But all the more KSA leaning ummannels have banished him from viewing.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 30 Jul 2010 22:45

brihaspati wrote:Na-layak should mean immature, irresponsible, adolescent etc. The opposition against ZN is most strongly led by a section of Sunni and Arab inspired clerics. The points of criticism should be asked to be clarified - that will reveal the real reasons for criticizing ZN. He was widely supported in UK as along as he was dissing out on Christians and Hindus. Recently he has let it go to his head and started charting out typical "Indic" style Islamic "heresies" - hence the angst. Channels still not entirely under Saudi influence among the ummannels (umma-channel) continue to broadcast multilingual casts of ZN's tirade on non-Muslims. But all the more KSA leaning ummannels have banished him from viewing.

My 2 cents from trawling zakir naik videos. Zakir Naik's Islamic Research Foundation (IRF) claims to have done original research and found scientific facts in the koran, Others accuse him of copying the works of a scholar from uttar pradesh. Scholar belongs to amhediya sect, so some people in turn accuse zakir of misguiding muslims and plagiarism. Double whammy

vina · Post by **vina** » 30 Jul 2010 22:46

bring in the Germans [who do so already on individual basis and discreetly but not on institutional basis that much],

err. BP Ji, the Madrassa in Chennai was set up with W. German help. There is strong institutional bond between that and Germany,long standing links. Over the years there have been multi million year grants from Germany and in those days German faculty used to visit the Madrassa and many faculty were German educated as well. In fact, much of the equipment used to be German with German markings (Electrical Machines lab, I still remember).

Each Madrassa was helped by a different country in the intial stages. Madras- German, Kanpur American (for long it had the best CS and Aero programs in India I think), Bombay - Russian I think, Dilli - UK (no surprise there) and KPG I don't know.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 30 Jul 2010 22:49

Zakir is accused of copying this scholar's works

Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi
http://www.muslim.org/islam/miws/author.htm

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Jul 2010 00:19

lots of indians have also gone to germany to study, right from the 1950's

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Jul 2010 01:14

Well, I meant "Germans/Russians/Japanese" in the current proposed "educational" joint ventures at the scale being discussed with UK or USA. There is a lot of collaboration research level, and this is what I find normal.

What I was more concerned with was painting the UK-USA education, especially the foundational level in the undergrad level for graduate/research being touted as the model to be copied for Indians now. I would be rather worried for the level and techniques of education as current in UK/USA which is tending increasingly downwards, in the hands of Indian attitudes of power and hierarchy even in academics, will be a deadly combination.

I find Germans/Russians/Japs have better foundations. They may lack in entrepreneurship where the social attitudes in UK/USA help. A lot of so-called educational advantages seen in UK/USA has more to do with the way their businesses run and how entrepreneurship is socially/statewise encouraged and not necessarily having to do with better education.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jul 2010 01:28

RamaY wrote:And Cameron has a point there. Returning Kohinoor amounts to undoing of queen's crown. Too much Ech end Dee involved here.

I would rather start with numerous Hindu idols/sculptures present in British museums. Perhaps India can build suitable cultural museums in India and Britain can fill them. This can be a good Indo-Britain friendship theme.

Imagine a sprawling Indic cultural museam in Bharat proper where thousands of Natarajas, Arthanariswaras, Vignesas and Vishnus abide...

Sorry for being such a andhvishwasi SDRE, but once a astrologer had mentioned the history of kohinoor and how it was the downfall of british empire. Don't want it back in the land of Maharaj Bharat again. Let them keep it, or gift it to china on our behalf but please no not here.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 31 Jul 2010 01:35

brihaspati wrote:Well, I meant "Germans/Russians/Japanese" in the current proposed "educational" joint ventures at the scale being discussed with UK or USA. There is a lot of collaboration research level, and this is what I find normal.

What I was more concerned with was painting the UK-USA education, especially the foundational level in the undergrad level for graduate/research being touted as the model to be copied for Indians now. I would be rather worried for the level and techniques of education as current in UK/USA which is tending increasingly downwards, in the hands of Indian attitudes of power and hierarchy even in academics, will be a deadly combination.

I find Germans/Russians/Japs have better foundations. They may lack in entrepreneurship where the social attitudes in UK/USA help. A lot of so-called educational advantages seen in UK/USA has more to do with the way their businesses run and how entrepreneurship is socially/statewise encouraged and not necessarily having to do with better education.

I agree with this.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Jul 2010 02:14

Use all the available oppertunities and learn from all . We can easlity have, accomodate and exploit the academic, scientific best from all over WEST as well Russia, Japan and even Korea. Indian can and must become the Middle, meeting , melting spot where Best of EAST and WEST come together and become uniquely Indic.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Jul 2010 02:30

Isnt koh-i-noor connected to Krishna? So maybe it needs a proper Indic hand to hold it without mishap. Moreover, the diamond was in UK for so long and and so close to Monarchical crania - and yet look how the monarchy is prospering with no signs of abeyance - and I am sure there will be hysterical young females in a mass rally if the darling princes come visiting desh. No, koh-i-noor belongs to us - belongs to desh.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Jul 2010 02:31

B-ji

You should recommend few of German universities to setup shop in India in view of recent Edu reforms.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Jul 2010 02:35

german universities don't have the same commercial mindset, they get plenty of state funding
also, they have moved away from an elitist culture, so whilst the good students are good, the average dominates
french grand ecoles would be a better idea

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 31 Jul 2010 02:45

Kohinoor was the name given to the diamond by the invading Muslims.In Sanskrit it was known as the Syamantaka mani.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 31 Jul 2010 02:50

I know - but there is this debate about whether "simantaka" was a ruby or a diamond. So I used the common current name.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 31 Jul 2010 03:21

Sorry for being such a andhvishwasi SDRE, but once a astrologer had mentioned the history of kohinoor .....

Is there an emoticon for "buttocks"?

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 31 Jul 2010 03:44

Manish_Sharma wrote:
RamaY wrote:And Cameron has a point there. Returning Kohinoor amounts to undoing of queen's crown. Too much Ech end Dee involved here.

I would rather start with numerous Hindu idols/sculptures present in British museums. Perhaps India can build suitable cultural museums in India and Britain can fill them. This can be a good Indo-Britain friendship theme.

Imagine a sprawling Indic cultural museam in Bharat proper where thousands of Natarajas, Arthanariswaras, Vignesas and Vishnus abide...

Sorry for being such a andhvishwasi SDRE, but once a astrologer had mentioned the history of kohinoor and how it was the downfall of british empire. Don't want it back in the land of Maharaj Bharat again. Let them keep it, or gift it to china on our behalf but please no not here.

As I mentioned before, this superstition can be avoided by renting the Kohinoor to UK for $1 billion a year(its priceless, but somewhere its valued at $10 billion because of its history).
If UK leases 5 Vanguard class submarines together with its SLBMs to India forever, that would be equal to Kohinoor's rent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_class_submarine

That would make sure when TSP thinks of taking down India with it, India takes down whole of Middle East.
"Na rahega baans, na bejegi bansuri"

kubhamanyu · Post by **kubhamanyu** » 31 Jul 2010 09:29

Where education is concerned the undergraduates who come out of germany, e.g. karlsruhe, or many through france, seem to be really well prepared. As things move into the research realm, US/UK seem to be a bit more together. But there is nothing special or great about any of these "pedagogies" -- we should go to a thread and discuss a model for our own that could be great to write home about.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Jul 2010 09:35

Raghavendra wrote:Zakir is accused of copying this scholar's works

Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi
http://www.muslim.org/islam/miws/author.htm

Interesting name, if he calls himself that. Needs to be protected from home grown MMB.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 31 Jul 2010 13:37

Stephanie Flanders BBC Economics Blog: Osborne in India: Why the UK economy needs India

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Jul 2010 14:14

Bhima wrote:Stephanie Flanders BBC Economics Blog: Osborne in India: Why the UK economy needs India

The optimism of a Brit:

mark_123 wrote:JULY 2020

MRS SINGH: Hello is that my telephone/insurance/bank?* Delete where applicable.
JOHN SMITH: Yes madam, how are you today?
MRS SINGH: Pardon, can you repeat that?
JOHN SMITH: Yes madam, how are you today?
MRS SINGH: Sorry, can you repeat that?
JOHN SMITH: Certainly madam, how are you today?
MRS SINGH: Sorry I can't understand you..... (Puts down phone)
MRS SINGH TO HUSBAND: One of those bl**dy UK call centres again!!

He really thinks, India is going to export call center jobs to UK!

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 31 Jul 2010 14:40

Pratyush wrote:
Raghavendra wrote:Zakir is accused of copying this scholar's works

Maulana Abdul Haq Vidyarthi
http://www.muslim.org/islam/miws/author.htm
Interesting name, if he calls himself that. Needs to be protected from home grown MMB.

Maulana Vidyarthi has passed away long ago, its in the link and what is MMB?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 31 Jul 2010 15:37

BAE, HAL May Jointly Market Hawks Globally | AVIATION WEEK

http://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source ... GqatGMUP0A

Another Spin-off from Cameroon's visit

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 31 Jul 2010 20:53

Muppalla wrote:Question for UK and London watchers? Is it true that expat Indians or UK citizens of Indian origin actually own 40% of London real estate?

I don't know about greater London but this is not true for central London and it's prime real estate. The Russians and Arabs own a large chunk of it now.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100531/159229575.html

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... -coming.do

disha · Post by **disha** » 31 Jul 2010 21:07

Manishw wrote:Kohinoor was the name given to the diamond by the invading Muslims.In Sanskrit it was known as the Syamantaka mani.

Syamantaka or not, it belongs in India. One does not have to go for the biggest here, we can start as some others have suggested from below. That is have museums in the smaller metros to host the various statues. I am particularly interested in seeing the single cast bronze statue circa 6AD. If some forum members remember the name, it helps.