Indian Education System

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 06 Jul 2015 06:48

Bade wrote: The professional colleges have teacher scarcity, so they do not ask new hires to put money (Rs10-20L) upfront as they can squeeze the students for the same. I have a friend who paid Rs1 crore for a medical seat for their daughter in Bengaluru. So professional education (non-IIT, NITs, IISERs) is only for the rich in India, propagating a new class system.

This is what I don't understand. Forget education for a second, what is the ROI of investing 1 cr on a medical degree ? Surely docs don't get paid that much to justify it.
I mean you can start a company with 1 cr. There are so much better uses of that money.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2015 06:56

What was not clear to me is whether the 1cr was the total cost for 5 yrs or upfront donation. Hope it is the total cost, someone with medical background can clarify. A Manipal Engg degree costs Rs 40 Lakhs isn't it ? If that has a RoI then perhaps the Rs 1cr medical degree has too.

All said, this really filters out anyone but the upper middle class and above for such opportunities to make even more money down the years.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 06 Jul 2015 12:38

Bade wrote:What was not clear to me is whether the 1cr was the total cost for 5 yrs or upfront donation. Hope it is the total cost, someone with medical background can clarify. A Manipal Engg degree costs Rs 40 Lakhs isn't it ? If that has a RoI then perhaps the Rs 1cr medical degree has too.

All said, this really filters out anyone but the upper middle class and above for such opportunities to make even more money down the years.

IIRC, Manipal engg costs around 12 L from what I have heard. Even that is not worth it for those with less income.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Jul 2015 14:03

1 crore for MBBS is insanity , unless he/she is the brat of a rich doc ... but there are some people who spend their life savings on getting the kid to mbbs...that too just for h&d reasons...I have heard of people sending their daughters to med school as it seemingly helps them get "better" husbands...

this entire industry survives on antiquated notions of the aspirational middil class and spoiled brat of rich dads...why not sent the kid to an undergrad degree and get them to give pmt again next year ? if they are truly interested in med , they ll slog it through ...

one my argue that in you ass the fees are high too...But you are assured of a residency spot once you get too med school...and in many schools there are fee waiver programs ... Eg lerners college of medicine (cleveland clinic campus , admits only 35 kids , but thoroughly research oriented prog , you ll find the most kick ass stuff in there , and it is totally free) .. In case western reserve u may get a fee waiver if you work in a not for profit insti for 3-4 years....Now almost all residency spots are not for profit and of at least 3-4 years...So criteria solved... again there are many docs who remain in debt till there 40... but that is a different story..

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Jul 2015 18:11

Someone taking up MMBS just because he/she is a rich kid does not make sense for that field involves ghor tapasya of at least 7 if not 10 year before one kind of starts settling down in terms of having a decent name in the city/town as a practitioner . The best thing for a rich brat these days is to go and setup a swanky restaurant and pub in a area like Indiranagar or posh area of any metro and then come there every evening for collections other usual options are petrol pumps or even a luxury car showroom . These businesses are pretty stable get good moolah and are also 'cool'. Oh I missed joining pitashri's business at a high post is always an option. Getting CP licence is also a viable option for those who do not want to do business .

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 06 Jul 2015 19:27

It is 40 lakh @ MGR Medical college near Chennai but there are discounts available. Annual fees are extra. Dental is cheaper.

Daktar degree does not make sense unless one emigrates to USA or starts up own hospital, nursing home, etc. The way I hear it many do not even stick around in doctoring. Hang up the license at the front door and go back to squandering the family fortune. What a waste. Many NRI now send their kids to India to continue family tradition esp. the ones who have no hope in the USA education system. I know one who came back from India with degree, joined old age home, promptly killed 2 old ladies with faulty prescription, got disbarred? lost his license permanently. When I talked to him about it he laughed about it and said he didn't like medicine anyway... ..squandering wealth...

All respect for my Grandma who back in the 1930's-1940's served as lady doctor in the wilds of S.TN. When my mom was born she had to do the C section herself instructing the nurses what to do! At least that is the story though I believe it. Tough unsentimental lady. My main memory of her was when I fell off her house parapet and gashed my leg. She got the tincture, needle, thread and told me how to stitch myself up. I hated her at that moment but love her for it today. There are still a couple of hospitals named after her out there. There are stories that she used to tell me that make my skin crawl to this day.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2015 20:25

The data point I provided was for a NRI student...more precisely a US citizen living in India with parents who did R2I. From their perspective Rs 1cr for a medical degree is cheaper than getting the same in the USA. Just the UG degree will cost $100k for 4 yrs and another N years to get a MD.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jul 2015 21:35

csaurabh wrote:IIRC, Manipal engg costs around 12 L from what I have heard. Even that is not worth it for those with less income.

They have two branches - one NRI and the other RI. The former get to do their rotations in the US as they have some link up with a medical college in some carribean (sic) island. I presume NRI stream gets charged more than the RI stream students.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jul 2015 21:44

csaurabh wrote:I mean you can start a company with 1 cr. There are so much better uses of that money.

Not really a better use in that most companies fail (unless the idea is earth shattering) in today's India. This was not the case three decades ago when even a measly distributorship of foreign maal would have netted quite a bit of return.

At least with an MBBS degree, they can open up a small family practice clinic. There is severe shortage of family practice docs in both urban outskirts and rural areas. They will rake in money. Heck, homeopaths do rake in money too. Here we are talking about allopathy docs. Most people believe in allopathy than any other followed by ayurveda which is practiced pro bono by experts and cognoscenti. Of course, ayurveda has its own limits like lack of surgery or handling emergencies like snake bites, accidents on the field (eye and limb injuries) or large scale epidemics like cholera/typhoid or handling illnesses arising out of water born contaminants of both biological and chemical variety.

By the way, what I heard from a doc friend of mine is that to start a medical school, one needs a medical degree and say about 3 crs., a few beds (which will be filled on demand). They rake in the moolah @ a rate of, if not 1 cr., 10 lacs for each product* they stamp out from that hole-in-the-wall med school.

*: Gawd I hate that turn of the phrase - a product of *IT, *college of Engg./Tech/univ. Totally demeaning and objectifying of the people who studied in the colleges.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2015 22:14

True Manipal has different rates for NRI kids vs locals. It is on their website and public, unless there are hidden fees paid under the table too. You never know in India.

Many kids from the US also go to the Carribean for an MD degree, know quite a few.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Jul 2015 23:04

By the way, what I heard from a doc friend of mine is that to start a medical school, one needs a medical degree and say about 3 crs., a few beds (which will be filled on demand). They rake in the moolah @ a rate of, if not 1 cr., 10 lacs for each product*.

was the friend a pakee ?

In India , MCI is very stringent , especially for private colleges. You need 25 acres land , a 400 bed hospital , that has been running for 3 years with a scope for expansion for more depending upon number of seats demanded etc... It is a massive undertaking and you need a startup capital of 100 crore +... Burn out rate for the first few years is 50-100 crore per year.

there are rigid rules about lab/hospital equipment and even books and journals in the library...

Inspections tend to be very rigid for private colleges...because one minor technical infringement and you can blackmail the trustee for bribes ...government colleges have a lot more leeway and have ancient libraries .

many colleges have gone bankrupt...

Even the fatichar private colleges will fulfill at least the bare minimum infra requirements ... Mayawati ran a college that had a single building...permission was granted through the usual means.. but eventually it was closed down...And now it is not listed in MCI/WHO/IMED .. there were few other such places ...but none exist now...

money-pal and many other private colleges have the kind of infra that will put cleveland clinic to a shame... these days they even aim for the hospital to be profitable ...they have delux suites that cater to rich people ...and also areas for poor people ...they make money through the rich people... and clinical trials...In Gujarat , treatment of BPL families is largely financed by government ,even if they chose to get treated in private...

If good government college students were put in good private places like money-pal , you could produce true gems of doctors ...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 06 Jul 2015 23:12

Manipal docs had a good reputation and that is perhaps still true, probably one of the best privately managed educational system in South India at least.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 06 Jul 2015 23:20

In terms of equipment , quality of faculty and core medical facilities ,money-pal far surpasses AIIMS ...of course the quality of students is a different matter...Rajdeeps brat is in manipal...

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 06 Jul 2015 23:58

gakakkad: No the friend is not a packee. Exactly the opposite. When he graduated - he was my calssmate from 3rd grade - with MBBS he got a Junior Doctor position in a PHC. He came to my dad for advise asking whether he should take that up or wait for a position in a hopsital in the city. Dad told him to take up the Jr. doctor position (just like my dad himself did - he went in as govt. degree college Asst. lecturer after his MA). My friend did exactly that and has been quite happy ever since. He worked in small rural towns all over AP and is quite happy about the experience. On the financial front he didn't do too bad. About a decade ago he wne tback to school to do fellowship in Anatomy and also taught at a medical college. Now back to govt. service and in-charge of a few PCHs.

This had been happening in AP is what he told me. Now you tell me that most of those fly-by-the-night instis have gone bankrupt indicating that things got tightened in the past few years.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 07 Jul 2015 03:12

what ij the $1B egg-jam scam? Why is it so cheap?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jul 2015 17:22

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/punjab ... 02928.html

here we have punjab state teachers struggling for regularization and salary of a paltry 5000/- (much less than a security guard in blr who just maintains a register book in apts)......and there we have the sickular elites in delhi and sections of jernails ever ready to spend fortunes on imported equipment.......

situation is similar in many states - the govt school teachers many do not have permanent jobs, salaries are delayed and poor, working conditions are bad...and these are supposed to magically produce the next spear point of the younger gen.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 07 Jul 2015 17:53

vayu tuvan wrote:gakakkad: No the friend is not a packee. Exactly the opposite. When he graduated - he was my calssmate from 3rd grade - with MBBS he got a Junior Doctor position in a PHC. He came to my dad for advise asking whether he should take that up or wait for a position in a hopsital in the city. Dad told him to take up the Jr. doctor position (just like my dad himself did - he went in as govt. degree college Asst. lecturer after his MA). My friend did exactly that and has been quite happy ever since. He worked in small rural towns all over AP and is quite happy about the experience. On the financial front he didn't do too bad. About a decade ago he wne tback to school to do fellowship in Anatomy and also taught at a medical college. Now back to govt. service and in-charge of a few PCHs.

This had been happening in AP is what he told me. Now you tell me that most of those fly-by-the-night instis have gone bankrupt indicating that things got tightened in the past few years.

paradoxically , the credit for tightness goes to the baboocracy ...

MCI inspectors are professor from various government medical colleges ... As per rule a new college needs to be inspected every year for the first 5 years (till the first batch appear for final MBBS , the practical exams of the first batch are conducted under the presence of MCI designated inspectors ) .. This rule has always been rigidly followed and hence we have not had any IIPM's in medicine ...

Now , when an inspector comes for a private college , usually he is housed in the best suites in a 5 star hotel and given the best available modes of transport .. He has to verify faculty forms ,and equipement forms and resident forms... He actually has to inspect every single member of the faculty and PG residents and certify their genuineness . In GMCs people ensure that inspectors are sufficiently drunk , for what is an ordeal even for them...

MCI maintains a central database of medical teachers...so if a teacher is registered in more than one places during inspections , it tends to get investigated and such teachers are black listed....Of late this has been implemented very severely ...

Other thing is that if an inspector fills a form in which some facility is marked as present and next year other inspector comes and the facility is marked as absent , the inspector who turned up the first time is questioned...

In a private college , inspectors tend not to get drunk....they ll go around nitpicking ...Supposing a particular facility is not present at the inspection , he may demand a bribe and that way corruption does happen...But that does not put the problem to rest forever..Next year the bribe will have to be given again...So it ends up cheaper to have the equipment , than to keep paying off inspectors...

Most of the time even if you have good facilities , you need to keep paying baksheesh , to keep surprise inspections at bay ...but that baksheesh is usually small...

MCI has cleverly stayed away from admission policy...ie it is not illegal as per MCI to accept NRI /Management quota fees , provided the kid is getting 60% marks in PCB class 12th and 50% in inglees..But that would violate state and other laws...but not MCI laws...

Donations jump up every time there is a new pay commission....In late 90s it was 15-20 lakh INR...Mid 2000s 30-40 lakh INR... Presently 60 lakh to 1 crore INR...By 2020 1.5 to 2 crore assuming the demand remains constant....

For 100 MBBS seats we need 2 professors for each of the 20 subjects ...And 8 to ten assistant and associate profs per subject So you need 40 professors and 200 APs minimum to start a college... The salary of professor has to be higher than what is offered in government ....Presently it will be 1.5-2 lakh per month... An assistant professor is given 70-80k INR per month... So the salary bill comes to 35-40 crore inr / year...This will be doubled in 5 years time as the next pay commission is round the corner...

Initially to get patients u need to subsidize treatments...Bills need to be paid etc... So the cost of running 100 seats of MBBS comes close to 60-70 crore PA ...The only source of income is the donation... You need to charge 60-100 lakh donations just to breat even....

You make real money only after 5 years when the first batch passes and you get full MCI recognition and can start PG courses...

The procedure is similar in the US....Costs are 50 times India's as their salaries are higher ....But usually they seek affiliations with an existing hospital...

For example kalamazoo michigan had a full fledged tertiary care centre for years which ran a large and successful PG residency program...The homer stryker medical college began 2 years ago onlee...

In the US the hospital and the college need not be in the same campus provided it is a reasonable distance...and their is a lot more flexibility that can help reduce costs...for example harvard has 3 affiliated general hospitals and a Childrens hospital... HMS students are posted in any of them depending upon where they want ...That is not permitted in India...

Also it takes a tedious procedure to do oversee electives if u are in an Indian med school... Many forms need to be filled in triplicate...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 07:36

So 1 crore for a medical education/degree is not so bad from a RoI point of view. Let the rich become doctors and end up doing some social service on the side, while they loot the rest of the sick rich. Perfect model for an imperfect world and an imperfect profession. In the end only good genes inherited can save you a visit to the doctor.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 08 Jul 2015 10:59

from a purely economic perspective , at the present per capita income paying 1 crore for getting kid to MBBS is madness. Because it does not end at MBBS..If the chap does not shine in MBBS , more money will be paid for PG which can go upto 2.5 crore for branches like orthopedics...ROI is very variable and need not be good for all...they might take more than a decade just to break even...

from the perspective of medical college charging less than 50 lakh for MBBS is totally unfeasible ...older established colleges can afford to charge less , as they have other sources of profit too...

We have a total of 50k MBBS seats in the country...We need 90k to achieve anywhere west levels of doctor patient ratio by 2040...

Now if people realize that donations for kids med school is not a good investment , many private colleges are likely to go bust...

And having government open 400 more colleges will badly strain the exchequer...

That was from a purely economic perspective...

Now if we look at it from an educational perspective , I concede that medicine does not usually require the kind of genius that may be needed for theoretical physics or aerospace or AI algorithms ...But it is no flipping burgers either ...And in some branches a lot of application and improvisation ability is demanded ...

And it requires 10-14 years of punishing dedication...One of the reasons why med school applications are so competitive in massa,,,One of the reasons why they want med school entrants to have 4 year college with 1 year in PCMB and host of other requirements ...If a guy is willing to work hard enough to develop credentials that can enter med school , than he is likely to study in med school also...

One cannot say that about donation quota docs or reserved category docs...

I agree that because of various state boards and reservations and ultra competitive AI PMT , only a limited number of spots are available for the open category apdool ...And they guy may be interested...But just misses out by a whisker...

I even know a guy who barely missed and took a paid seat in poona and is a surgery resident in massa ..and done good research even ...

But I also know a guy who gave an anatomy viva so nonsensical , that the examiner had anginal attacks ...

the present system is just not appropriate...

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Jul 2015 16:33

^ Sire annual fees for nursery in Bangalore is around 2 lakh pa and these are just normal mom and pop shops. 1 crore for MBBS via management quota or NRI quota is not that bad.

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 08 Jul 2015 17:23

negi wrote:^ Sire annual fees for nursery in Bangalore is around 2 lakh pa and these are just normal mom and pop shops. 1 crore for MBBS via management quota or NRI quota is not that bad.

??! Even the much despised coaching classes only charge 1 Lpa or so.
Even for 'hi fi' snooty rich types it is simply absurd. What about the vast majority who cannot afford anything like that?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 08 Jul 2015 19:24

^^ agreed... compared to the quality of education , the price is simply too high ..forget morality and concepts like universal education , the price defies economic logic...coaching classes unlike med schools don't have significant overhead expenditures....Reason why they can demand this absurd kind of money is because of the perceived benefits the coaching might have in getting into prof courses....the benefits in itself are debatable ..

the concept is even more absurd than the "intrinsic value of gold" in economics ... Because there we at least have a bar of metal...In tuition classes not even that...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 19:48

gakakkad, thanks for the detailed explanations. After what you said it still is not so bad if NRI kids want to get an MBBS for Rs 1cr and maybe it costs half or three-quarters that for a RI kid from the upper class. Well these kids should have the luxury of slogging it out for longer as their family is not immediately dependent on them. It is fair only. I see nothing wrong. Since medicine and hospital infra at least modern ones cannot be doled out free and kept sustainable, this model will work for now. Well, it will not win elections for netas, but I care two hoots about any neta anyways. We need good doctors and well trained ones. What is the possibility of making medical entrance post an UG degree in India if it can increase quality of students and filter out dedicated ones among the rich ?

I am all for this even if my family cannot afford a medical education for the next generation. Let the rich pay for it all.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 19:52

What about the vast majority who cannot afford anything like that?

It is capitalism at its best, rest could care less as it is well beyond their reach. They can settle for other careers with less overhead expenditure. They can become theoretical physicists, college lecturers and school teachers. Why should everyone be a daktar even if smart and has the potential.

Those with a biological bent of mind can go for higher studies in medicine related areas and into research. Leave the mango doctor jobs for the rich !

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 08 Jul 2015 20:44

>>. We need good doctors and well trained ones. What is the possibility of making medical entrance post an UG degree in India if it can increase quality of students and filter out dedicated ones among the rich ?

very slim chance...In fact someone made such a suggestion in England and Asstralia , where too the idea was not received well..In India where people view delayed "settling" as a taboo , such a move might trigger a rebellion ...

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 21:21

What is the quality on support staff for doctors and medical hospitals, nurse training etc. This is where a huge difference might be made for the mango man for low level medical care at the local PHC.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 08 Jul 2015 23:33

From E-con thread

IITs are Nehru's legacy, no?

Its possible that the same money, spent on basic education would have a better ROI

The amount spent on the IITs in the first decade after independence was nothing of the sort that it would do a big dent on primary education if channeled to it instead.

What about the NITs too, they do not come cheap do they ?

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 08 Jul 2015 23:58

Bade saar,

The failure to focus on primary education is inexcusable though I do agree the funds for IIT would have been a drop in the bucket. There was a very elitist sniff to the entire thing and there still is. The same group is still running desh. Now they want 10-15-25 IIT’s. On primary education not a squeak.

The handful of state that bucked the national trend Kerala & TN & NE depended on heavy state spending. They didn’t sit around for dilli to do something. Back then education for all was not a consensus like it is now. Easier to just blame dilli and wash ones responsibility for the entire thing.

The state of primary education remains a national scandal. If there are 2 things that should be National priority

- Education, esp. womens education. 100% high school graduation minimum for girls, no matter what it takes. Ignore the boys if you must.
- Womens healthcare – Girls nutrition, maternal mortality, infant mortality, child mortality, age of pregnancy, etc.

All modern states are built on these two. Everything else follows automatically. You don’t have these 2 you are going nowhere. This is the lesson no one wants to learn in India. Some of us have been saying this for 40+ years.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 09 Jul 2015 00:20

As you rightly pointed out, even states with no GDP to speak of have done a good job of providing for primary education. There is no reason why other states cannot. I would blame the inherent culture more than lack of central govt funding to provide for minimum quality education at school level. Blaming IIT and Nehru is a nice pastime, but it does not address the real issues.

I concur, focus on women's education and all will fall in place. There is a reason why KL was able to get where it is on this yardstick at least across the spectrum.

Since the states want to keep education under their control for imposing their language and other ideologies, they will have to squarely take the blame.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 09 Jul 2015 02:43

Along with education (esp. women's) we need safe drinking water as well. So better staffed primary HCs and schools.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 09 Jul 2015 07:49

Bade wrote:What is the quality on support staff for doctors and medical hospitals, nurse training etc. This is where a huge difference might be made for the mango man for low level medical care at the local PHC.

To be honest , if the support staff can be trained to do simple procedures like blood collections , giving iv infusions , inserting venous cathetors and urethral catheters , there is no problem... from the nurses a basic knowledge of terminology and ability to prepare iv treatment solutions is expected...and some knowledge of basic medical terminology and physiology ...

usually nurses in India manage to do there job well... it is not difficult...they don't have the kind of knowledge massa nurses have...but that is not needed..massa tends to over educate everyone... the amount of certification process one has to go through just to dispense drugs at wallgreens is staggering ... the same thing can be done by a 2/3 year trained diploma pharmacy guy in India..

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 10 Jul 2015 01:34

I hadn't checked on what this VYAPAM scam was all about. Wow! Pretty sophisticated for yindoos! My question is: why would all this be limited to just Madhya Pradesh? Isn't it really in every state and union territory?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 10 Jul 2015 05:53

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-ii ... es-2103013

According to the rankings, China has seven of the top 10 places while Brazil, India and Russia have one each and South Africa none. "The 2015 results confirm that China is strengthening its dominant position while India has seen a rise of more than 50 per cent in the number of institutions listed in the top 200 in the latest rankings," said Martin Ince, convener of the QS global academic advisory board.

"The BRICS nations share a desire to grow in economic and political importance without copying the Western model of development. This ranking exists to see how this ambition is being reflected in their university systems," Ince said.

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 10 Jul 2015 13:26

In the Economy thread there was discussion on emphasis on education in Northeren India and in the South. Some one sent me this link about Bihari kids learning the english alphabet. Though meant as a joke. I think there is an undertone of truth in it. Anyway it is fun watching the kid reciting A for Apple in their own inventive way.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10 ... =2&theater

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 10 Jul 2015 23:13

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/ ... ing-badly/

IIT Roorkee has expelled 73 students for faring badly in the first year B Tech programme, scoring less than 5 in the Cumulative Grade Point Average (CGPA).
.
.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 01:30

+1000.
I once got into this exclusive club (5%) on my Engineering Mechanics test. Woke me up really well. So you do have to wonder how these worthies managed 5% across the board. As in, how did they get through the Entrance Exam? Are they from Madhya Pradesh? If not, "Vyapam" is more vyapam than in just MP, as I thought.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 05:53

Aiyyoo!!

It wasn't 5%, it was 50%!!!!

That DOES sound rough. Either they think their exams are a picnic, or the Director is a drunkard. Lots of ppl get poor grades in the first two years. They should be given at least 2 or 3 semesters to recover.

DEHRADUN: In an unprecedented action for any IIT, the institute at Roorkee expelled 73 students whose performance was not up to the mark after their first-year of the BTech programme. These students scored less than 5 CGPA (cumulative grade point average) in their exams and were expelled late on Wednesday.

At the time of admission, the parents of these students had signed a declaration stating that their poor performance could result in their removal from the institute: this is unlike any other previous instance at an IIT.
(Why? Were these political appointees? Why the discrimination?)

Students have been expelled from IITs but taken back, except in one instance each in IIT, Kharagpur and IIT, Kanpur. On Thursday, a meeting was held to consider the mercy appeal of students.

It was attended by over 160 senior officials, including professors, heads of departments and the director. A decision was then taken to expel the students.

A former director of IIT, Kharagpur, recounted that in 2006, around 15-20 first year students were expelled on account of poor performance. This decision was taken by a committee that evaluated undergraduate students. The director, however, eventually overturned the decision to expel the students and re-admitted them.

Sources told TOI that IIT-Roorkee's move to expel students occurred after second-semester examinations ended in May. Many students who fared badly were called for a meeting with college authorities and told to pull up their socks.

During counselling sessions, many students admitted that they were finding it difficult to cope up with the academic work load. Institute officials said a few students claimed they had not given much attention to studies as they were "enjoying the first-year of college".

In mid-June, poor performers were sent a notice of expulsion by the institute. They were given time to file what the institute termed a "mercy appeal". Teaching ppl to do these things young, hain? WTF is that? To His Grace The Imperial Director?

Many students affected by the decision refused to speak with TOI, saying they were still in shock. A few said it was an "unjustified decision" and that they were never warned that scoring less than 5 CGPA would result in expulsion. OK, expel THOSE right away!!!

"I have scored a little over 4.5 CGPA, but even then, I have been asked to leave. It is not fair. What will I do now? My whole academic year has gone to waste," said one expelled student. (well, ur academic year WAS a total waste because u didn't learn diddly squat)

Student body representatives said the institute had acted in haste and should reconsider the decision.

"Students should not be removed from college like this. Many of them come from vernacular-medium backgrounds and it is difficult for them to comprehend certain subjects. They should have been given time to adjust to the academic environment in the institute," said Rajveer Choudhary, treasurer of the Students' Affair Council of IIT Roorkee.

Meanwhile, the institute's registrar, Prashant "Blofeld" Garg, when contacted, said the decision was justified.

"The IITs are premium institutes and the rules regarding underperformance were clearly notified to students at the time of admission. These 73 students could not attain the required credits and had CGPAs lower than 5, which qualifies for expulsion," Garg said.

"This organization does not tolerate failure. U have failed. Therefore U shall die" - Ernst Stavro Blofeld.
"The decision to expel them was taken after considering their mercy appeal, which was rejected by the apex academic body yesterday. We acknowledge that the number of students expelled is huge but we will ensure that preventive measures are taken and that there is no need to expel even a single student from IIT Roorkee on the grounds of poor academic performance next year," Garg added.

As their parents have already signed an agreement saying the students could be expelled for poor performance, these students are now left with no recourse, said a source.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 05:58

This makes no sense. I never COULD understand the math that they tried to hammer into me, except when it was taught by Ms.

(never mind; let's just say that I scored 100% in Differential Equations).

In case of IIT, Kanpur, 39 students were expelled in 2010, 14 of them from undergraduate courses, who were asked to vacate the hostel immediately. The students sought intervention of the President but it did not help. It is common in IITs to expel underperforming postgraduate and doctorate students.

The former director said the incident led to changes in the method of calculating students' Cumulative Grade Points Assessment (CGPA). "CGPA is calculated on the basis of subjects in which the student has passed rather than all subjects including the ones in which he has failed. Hardly anyone gets expelled," he said.

But he added that by signing the declaration at the time of admission, it has become difficult for students to underperform and survive in IITs.

How can someone get a CGPA < 5 if only grades from passed courses are counted in computing CGPA? Is the passing grade 45% rather than 50%? Are these students SC/ST (they had a 45% standard IIRC).
When I was in the EyeEyeTee there was a guy there whose dad was the PM's personal secretary or something like that. Passed out with a record GPA: 5.00. No comment.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 06:05

I am so out of it. What is this JEE Advanced? What happened to the aam JEE?

The successful students will fill 10,006 seats of 18 IITs and ISM Dhanbad. This year IIT-Bombay had conducted JEE Advanced.
Students can see the result on http://www.jeeadv.iitb.ac.in.
Total of 124,741 students had registered for the examination.

TEN THOUSAND? Phooey! So much for exclusivity. In my din the total was ~ 1000. Number taking the test was still way over 100,000. That's top 1%. 10,000/100,000 is top 10%.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 11 Jul 2015 06:26

I thought IITs did not have absolute marks quoted in %, like many other Univs do. They convert the absolute scores to Grades with the 1-10 scale. Many univs have grades too, but they assign marks obtained in certain absolute ranges to certain grades, letters or number.

IITs have relative grading (RG) where you get RGed and pushed down the scale when the class has a couple of outstanding students, who screw everyone else's grades.

Unless you are a 10 (like Bo-derek) and a PGM, at some point or another you have RGed others

or got RGed by others.

The thumb rule is if you got RGed more often than others, then it is likely that you are sliding down to unknown territory like these poor kids who were having fun after hitting the JEE lottery.