CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

[ernest]

The only long term solution is taking the war to bhikharistan. However, it will be carefully planned, just like we did in 1971. There wouldn't be effective responses in a reactionary mode. Dismember Pakistan for good.

The other option is to use the same strategy as they are using, i.e., to pay off insurgent groups in bhikharistan to keep them on back foot. If you go by certain narratives, we are already paying off Taliban to do that.

The defensive strategy of keeping on guarding our land, while they have the initiative to pick and attack at their choosing, will be expensive. No amount of body armor, and MPVs are going to be enough. We need to hit them back at a time of our choosing in ways they don't expect, and keep moving towards the endgame.

Like someone on the forum used to sign off - "give peace a chance. destroy Pakistan" . We all need to keep pushing for "pakistan delenda est" at every chance we get. No other option for these lowlives.

[S_Madhukar]

The problem is the dead tell no tales. All the shite and fertiliser is on our side while tall tales of valour and 72 abound on the other side. Now if aam Abdul does not see the carcass he thinks bro went to JK and was a brave heart and got 72.

Shivaji did not spend too much time fighting Abduls he went straight for the jugular of a Afzalkhan or Shaiestekhan because he never had the resources for 1-1 fight. Today we have those resources and happy for 1-1 or worse 1-10 fight. Can’t fight British style tactics got to learn from history somehow somewhere .

I know it’s a larger canvas but we should not assume that we will always have valiant soldiers ready to sacrifice at a moments notice, in the future we may have those that may question this policy as the economy improves. even a dismembered Bakistan might adopt same tactics multiplying our issues unless we drive some terror into the Abduls

[MeshaVishwas]

Gen Hooda says that there has been a thinning out of forces in Jammu, I assume that this is due to our response to the oisules in the north.
Could it be that the commie donkey eaters want to try another land grab and are encouraging the TSP to up the ante, forcing us to do some rebalancing?
Also the "smart" AIOS upgrade has to be done on the double!
I disagree vehemently with his "incentivise" remark, but I want the threat of punishment to increase big time.
I think the TSP also is drawing the same dumb lessons from LS 2024 elections as some other external actors.Govt is strong in center, needs to make sure that the enemy gets the message.

Gen Hooda(Retd) on the recent terror attacks in the UT of J&K:

[sajaym]

… sometimes I feel there are vested interests on our side that wants to keep the gravy train rolling else procurement opportunities will reduce…

The exact point which you are making has been mentioned by the guy in the below video. Apparently there IS a gravy train - in terms of medals, promotions etc., which the forces have become accustomed to and don't want to miss out on now. This is an eye-opening video on this topic.

[MeshaVishwas]

Sawhney is a dip*hit

[drnayar]

Every time " aid" money goes in Terroristan activities go up by a notch.

And they want to talk trade !

[sanjayc]

We need to create a separate counter terrorism force of 20,000 fresh recruits on the Agniveer model. Let the youth be trained just like the army and serve a six year stint in Kashmir, North East or Central India (Maoists). Army needs to be moved back to the border. Using army for this role is pointless as China and Pakistan sense an opening with thin deployment on the border.

[fanne]

We have nearly 50,000, it is called rashtriya rifles. It gives all branches of army a much needed baptism by fire. RR is not army and is funded by home ministry. That was owner response to not breaking the bank while resdponding to paki 1000 cuts. Read up please.

[sanjayc]

RR is still full of army people on deputation, and army is still deployed in Kashmir in sizeable numbers. So the problem is not solved.

[fanne]

Nope I disagree, please read up on RR. What is being suggested by you, if you optimize it,(like not sending inexperienced an all new agniveer against seasoned ssg commandos etc. …btw agniveer in RR will also fight), you will realize you will end up with RR. It is extra force without the extra budget burden being borne by army. Army also gets battle hardened soldiers, worth 3 division. It also does not affect army’s normal training and duties.

[brvarsh]

India is the only country fighting demographically different terror movements in a single nation often disjoint from each other, and is fighting for decades, and at least three wars out of four with the same undertone. If in 2024, we are still talking about best ways to fight terrorism specially in J&K, then either the political brass have been ignorant of our learning or such movements have been engraved in our eco system. Concerning is how we are losing our soldiers with the same modus operandi used by these terrorists with different tactics. We should be the teachers of how to fight localized terrorism, but alas we continue to struggle from it.

[fanne]

But we are expert at it. If indeed we are fighting a demographic war then with 200 million demographic fighter within and 400 million around us, losing some 100 peron a year is a very big win. Every loss is hurtful and one is one too many, but big picture, yes we are not doing bad.

[srai]

End Solutions combine political, economical and developmental aspects achieving integration to the whole.

[brvarsh]

End Solutions combine political, economical and developmental aspects achieving integration to the whole.

This may sound good but on ground the PED only serves to an extent. The oxygen needs to be plugged that fans this movement, until then, this will either continue in this shape or mixed with PED transform into another type of conflict we are seeing in some other parts of India. Annihilation and total collapse of the framework across the border and economic squeeze in China are the only objectives that would end the business of terror in Kashmir. Irrespective of how strong you are, if you let even a puny attacker with a knife near, you will remain at risk of getting cut.

[Manish_P]

But we are expert at it. If indeed we are fighting a demographic war then with 200 million demographic fighter within and 400 million around us, losing some 100 peron a year is a very big win. Every loss is hurtful and one is one too many, but big picture, yes we are not doing bad.

+1

Not to forget that the external enemy is propped up by at least 4 powerful entities who see us as future threats and or current competitors.

They fund the internal enemy also and the ways to stop those inflows have to be continually worked on and plugged (increased digitalsation, choking hawala, monitoring 'NGO'...).

[S_Madhukar]

Great points from Premji.

Like the Chicoms we need harsh punishments for the hands and legs of these troublemakers. None of these gangs are so brave or revolutionary that will take slaps after slaps but we barely lift a finger or can do thanks to the ecosystem.

But I am now convinced that part of the reason is our govt politicians and bureaucrats don’t want to be seen as too harsh in case our freebies loving janta votes for the other guys and they actually act harshly and make an example out of them, hence the appeasement carries on.

Why should the IA top brass be any different when they too have to go back to the civilian system, hence we see no bold reforms or strategy.

[fanne]

Great points from Premji.

Like the Chicoms we need harsh punishments for the hands and legs of these troublemakers. None of these gangs are so brave or revolutionary that will take slaps after slaps but we barely lift a finger or can do thanks to the ecosystem.

But I am now convinced that part of the reason is our govt politicians and bureaucrats don’t want to be seen as too harsh in case our freebies loving janta votes for the other guys and they actually act harshly and make an example out of them, hence the appeasement carries on.

Why should the IA top brass be any different when they too have to go back to the civilian system, hence we see no bold reforms or strategy.

I think partially, nay fractionally true. You mean we have means to use unknown men in Kannda, TSP and in uncle lair but not home, really? The problem is lack of faith in the intention (I am not even saying capability) of the current dispensation. The root cause for that lack of confidence 1) arrogance (some people just need to look into the mirror, being successful or moneyed is no guarantee of greatness) for many 2) self projection, jaisa pind waisi duniya, you do not trust yourself, you think all are that way 3)ignorance combined with unwillingness (not lack of capability) to think it through.

Things can always be improved. The government has been handling tough (just read the news, pay attention to small blurbs that keep on coming). As for mass agitations like farmer (backed by you know who - they are already ready with 10 step plan, where step2 is mass shooting by the govt, and govt is not playing ball with that plan). Similarly Manipur is ready, you already saw special forces of the greatest country in the world barely few km for our border - it is war there, foolish for us to rush headlong. To round it up - we may have some latent caste groups being prodded (if you are smart enough and your head is not in your a$$, you would easily figure out where, what and whom, all over news), some states (remember some of them are already busy appointing foreign secretary and inviting foreign nationals). You cannot be stretched 100%, you have to have certain reserves, even to act as deterrent. To quote, this deterrence works because - None of these gangs are so brave or revolutionary that will take slaps after slaps. Remove that deterrence and you have invited chaos.

Btw you is not you madhukarsir, its you in whoever is the you.

[Deans]

https://rpdeans.blogspot.com/2024/07/ka ... e-370.html

My latest blogpost on Kashmir 5 years after 370 was abrogated.
My initial analysis showed a sharp decline in militancy and return to normalcy in the State, including a rise in tourists. However, significant gaps
remain in governance. For e.g. Kashmir, which should have surplus power and water is deficient in both. Agriculture (apple farming) has been affected by a policy that favors a handful of importers. The continuing of the unfair IWT is also impacting Kashmiris.

[Shameek]

The bleeding continues. 2 soldiers and a civilian killed. Terrorists seem to have got away.

Link

"Security forces had information regarding the movement of terrorists in the upper reaches. A search operation was being conducted in the Gagar-Mandu area. Security forces spotted the movement of terrorists and there was an exchange of fire between the security forces and terrorists...Operation is underway...," IG Birdi told reporters.
He further said during the operation, two soldiers lost their lives while another soldier was admitted to hospital after receiving injuries and is stable.
"Two Indian army soldiers lost their lives in the encounter and a soldier who was admitted to the hospital is currently stable," he said.
IG Birdi said that a civilian succumbed to his injuries in the exchange of fire while another civilian was undergoing treatment at the hospital.

[Aditya_V]

Is there anyway we can start having Dro es part of these operations who start checking suspects before soldiers get in range?

[Jay]

Is there anyway we can start having Dro es part of these operations who start checking suspects before soldiers get in range?

lol...what will drones do when it seems we have incompetent leadership at all levels. We know the leaders, the methods, the finances, and other support system of these jihadis yet our civilian and army leadership still does not have any credible response methods. Drones or lack of them are the least of our problems.

[Rakesh]

CAPF lost twice as many personnel to illness, heart attacks than to combat in Naxal-hit areas in 5 yrs
https://theprint.in/india/capf-lost-twi ... s/2216317/
09 August 2024

[S_Madhukar]

If we neglect drones then day isn’t far when the insurgents will be replaced by drones and then random attacks here and there will be possible with all plausible deniability . At least today we have some proof of Abdul. I am darn sure they are working on that.

[ernest]

CAPF lost twice as many personnel to illness, heart attacks than to combat in Naxal-hit areas in 5 yrs
https://theprint.in/india/capf-lost-twi ... s/2216317/
09 August 2024

I have seen first hand the conditions in which CAPFs and state police deputed to combat Naxals. Lack of basic life supporting amenities like electricity, clean water in barracks. they cook their food in barebones chullahs, so forget about healthy meals. Rain covers, mosquito repellants, first aid all is so miserly distributed / lost to corruption.

And on top of this, the hierarchies are extremely unsympathetic to the average grunt on the ground. Mental health also suffers. Just thought of as cannon fodder. State police is worse off for sure

[Jay]

If we neglect drones then day isn’t far when the insurgents will be replaced by drones and then random attacks here and there will be possible with all plausible deniability . At least today we have some proof of Abdul. I am darn sure they are working on that.

We have already neglected drones and every other common sense measure, hence this non-stop painful experiences no matter who is at the helm.

[Shameek]

We lost another braveheart yesterday. Captain Deepak Singh from 48 Rashtriya Rifles killed in Doda. M4 carbines with some type of advanced sights found on the terrorists.

Link

An Army captain was killed during an encounter in Jammu and Kashmir's Doda district on Wednesday, according to officials.
The martyred officer was identified as Captain Deepak Singh from 48 Rashtriya Rifles. Singh, who was initially injured critically, was admitted to a military hospital where he succumbed to his wounds.

[Shameek]

Soldier shot at near Jammu’s Sunjuwan military station, security forces launch search op

The Army and the Jammu Kashmir Police have launched searches near the Sunjuwan Military Station in Jammu after a soldier was allegedly wounded in gunfire that came from outside the camp.

Meanwhile, security sources said three pistols and some ammunition had been seized in Ramgarh sector along the international border in Samba district, prompting searches in the area. The arms and ammunition appeared to be dropped by a drone, the sources said.

Link

[Manish_P]

If we neglect drones then day isn’t far when the insurgents will be replaced by drones and then random attacks here and there will be possible with all plausible deniability . At least today we have some proof of Abdul. I am darn sure they are working on that.

The day has arrived

Cross post from the Internal security watch thread

Kukis suddenly using armed drones

[tandav]

https://www.newsx.com/national/ongoing- ... encounter/
2 soldiers killed and 2 more injured at Chatru village in Kishtwar district J&K. As per reports no terrorists were neutralized so far and may have gotten away.

https://www.newsx.com/national/security ... erway/amp/
Another encounter underway in Baramullah

[Prem Kumar]

This Govt is in full on Vikas + Appeasement mode

The Kshatriyata displayed in the 1st term (3 surgical strikes) is nowhere to be seen. The difference is that, in 2019, we didn't have Galwan. In spite of tall claims by repeated Chiefs, we can barely hold our own on 2 borders. We are nowhere capable of fighting a 2-front escalation. We have been lied to. Repeatedly

Lack of capability by Armed Forces + lack of political will = We keep losing soldiers in our own soil

[sajaym]

If we neglect drones then day isn’t far when the insurgents will be replaced by drones and then random attacks here and there will be possible with all plausible deniability . At least today we have some proof of Abdul. I am darn sure they are working on that.

The day has arrived

Meanwhile check out this video....



Following points to be noted:
1. Our 'Sanskaari-like-Alok Nath' forces use a drone which hovers in the air harmlessly taking videos of terrorists like in some wedding party INSTEAD of dropping a frigging grenade on them and ending hours and hours and hours of gunfight.
2. Watch where the gunshots land when the terrorist runs. Can't help but wonder how many shots actually hit the terrorist. And that's probably because in all the videos of that encounter... you'll see a majority of the troops are carrying rifles with IRON SIGHTS. Don't know what to say, is it so hard for a country buying multi- million dollar jets and billion dollar submarines....to arm every soldier with a reflex/TI sight? Instead...by the time our chap lines up a shot through his iron sights...his photo is already on the wall back home.

What a unnecessary and unjust waste!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VJSWRITER/status/1836046351466987672 ---> What happens in combat when leader falls? Terrorists exploiting this in Jammu. Disarray & retreat, lack of effective retaliation. Colonel MB Ravindranath, VrC, 2 Raj Rif, in book, Kargil: The Turning Point, delves on ‘leading from front’ & troops helter skelter when officer KIA.

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1836366109152342483 ---> This issue requires deep reflection by our military leadership. The answer may lie in adopting some form of “Mission Command” concept, suitable to our ethos & empowering JCO/NCO ranks to step-up & take lead, in crisis situations. It is already in vogue in US/UK forces.

[Manish_P]

...
https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1836366109152342483 ---> This issue requires deep reflection by our military leadership. The answer may lie in adopting some form of “Mission Command” concept, suitable to our ethos & empowering JCO/NCO ranks to step-up & take lead, in crisis situations. It is already in vogue in US/UK forces.
...

It is not recently in vogue. It has been there for decades. In the WWs the snipers/marksmen were trained to target the senior/ commanding officers (typically the commissioned ones). The counter tactics evolved such that the NCOs would then take command to lead the troops to advance to finish the op or in the retreat to safety.

Surprising to hear the IA doesn't follow it when they have taken on many traditions from the colonial structure.

[fanne]

https://x.com/VJSWRITER/status/1836046351466987672 ---> What happens in combat when leader falls? Terrorists exploiting this in Jammu. Disarray & retreat, lack of effective retaliation. Colonel MB Ravindranath, VrC, 2 Raj Rif, in book, Kargil: The Turning Point, delves on ‘leading from front’ & troops helter skelter when officer KIA.

https://x.com/arunp2810/status/1836366109152342483 ---> This issue requires deep reflection by our military leadership. The answer may lie in adopting some form of “Mission Command” concept, suitable to our ethos & empowering JCO/NCO ranks to step-up & take lead, in crisis situations. It is already in vogue in US/UK forces.

If you look at our history, vis vi against the islamic and western invaders, this has been our achillea's heel throughout. Whether Hemu leading, or Prithivi Raj chauhan, or Bappa Rawal or Shivaji, all would lead from front. The opposition head will be far away from battle field or in the rear (providing c&c or providing figure head). Many cases, even when winning the battle, suddenly leadership was killed in combat and the war was lost. When they were not killed in battle, we would mostly win. Even during Kargil, our Air chief, Shri Tipnis ji was flying in a 2 seater m2k to 'observe' some bombing.

I do not know much of western history that well, but seeing numerous historical war movies and serials, their sovereign or commander were in the palace or in the rear (with a clear exit strategy in case things went wrong).

I think this is our historical ethos (and maybe not, more on that later). It was bolstered (or rather exploited? , but British also still follow similar ethos, somebody please correct) by British Indian Army where young officer were supposed to lead from front. Same TSP army, officers are in the rear.

Also from begining, whether Ramayana or Mahabharata, the princes would lead the battle(but not really). Shri Ram did not fire the opening shot. Many battles were fought by respective armies and when some prince or king came from other side (like Meghnath or Ravana himself) then the sovereign from the dhrama side went to fight. Similarly in Mahabharata, Duryodhan clear instruction is to all his warrior is to clearly protect Bhisma the chief (meaning form a protective circle around him) while he can directly kill all opponents. The sovereign on both sides (Yudhister and Duryodhan) do not actively fight until late. Abhimanyu is an example, where you show great initiative with tragic results. Perhaps that was the message here for us in this age and time.

There are three approaches - 1) Lead from the front, be the first to get the first bullet (and consequently make your squad or battalion or whatever leaderless) - this is IA current approach 2) Be in the front, yet back enough to continuously provide c&c and be ready to be in front as situation demand (most successful armies in the world) 3) Be secure in the back, provide c&c (rather be a bureaucrat) and be a coward basically - Some arab armies were accused of that (we have never been this in our history). This maybe happening in some of the wars currently going on this world.
The difference between the above three is very subtle, but very important and many times difference between defeat and victory.

Even in leadership - What use is doing open jeep roadshows, or walking on unsanitized road randomly? Somewhere deep down you are trying to prove yourself that I am brave enough, I guess one should get out of that psychological need.

[S_Madhukar]

That drone video is us being typical clever and half. So they need proof of Abdul as part of process before shooting ?? CI should be treated as war if bosses claim it gives troops combat experience. Which means equipment and shoot to kill processes. This SBI style paper form and digital signature process won’t work in a real war. I won’t even go into equipment, there are police forces with better bulletproof vests and equipment.

And the leader leading from the front was great when literacy in the country was 10%. Don’t the soldiers get any leadership training at all or psychological education? Hope IA doesn’t want to repeat a Panipat

[srai]

Regarding “leading from the front”,

• Generals (head brigades, divisions, crops, commands) - no need to lead from the front (HQ)
• Colonel (head battalions/regiments) - don’t need to be at the front (battalion HQ)
• Major / Captain (head companies) - closer to the front (company HQ)
• Captain / Lieutenant (head platoons) - closest to the front (platoon HQ)
• 2nd Lt / Sargent (head sections) - in the frontlines basically

Once in the front, basically in place are some form of “lead point man” rotation. Then there are heat of the battle decisions being made, and this is where some level of decision autonomy amongst junior officers and non-officers desired when chain of command broken.

In the longer term to reduce fatalities in COIN operations, More infusion of drone (both recon and lethal) technology all the way down to the section level is required.

[venkat_kv]

I think some set of news were missed or not posted regarding the COIN operations.

At the time of Kishtwar encounter where two bravehearts succumbed to their injuries and two more were injured, there was another encounter in Baramulla, that led to neutralization of three terrorists.

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/jamm ... ay-3190501

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 91280.html

Also in a separate set of news Nalin Prabhat is appointed as DGP of J&K police. He is to take charge after September 30th. Has extensive experience in anti-naxal operations in Chattisgarh and with grey hounds in Andhra pradesh.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/nalin-pr ... ir-police/

[konaseema]

Regarding “leading from the front”,

• Generals (head brigades, divisions, crops, commands) - no need to lead from the front (HQ)
• Colonel (head battalions/regiments) - don’t need to be at the front (battalion HQ)
• Major / Captain (head companies) - closer to the front (company HQ)
• Captain / Lieutenant (head platoons) - closest to the front (platoon HQ)
• 2nd Lt / Sargent (head sections) - in the frontlines basically

Once in the front, basically in place are some form of “lead point man” rotation. Then there are heat of the battle decisions being made, and this is where some level of decision autonomy amongst junior officers and non-officers desired when chain of command broken.

In the longer term to reduce fatalities in COIN operations, More infusion of drone (both recon and lethal) technology all the way down to the section level is required.

We have this example within our Indian Armed Forces in the form of Special Forces, wherein leading from the front is NOT the ethos or duty of the CO of the operating unit. They operate in much smaller teams than the regular Army formations of a section / platoon or a company. But the mandate and the mode of operation is different for regular Infantry units. The command structure exists to serve a purpose and leading from the front is the NORM. Our casualties in J&K and in Kargil can't be compared to general warfare in plains / desert.

[Mort Walker]

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/2-labou ... 3635/amp/1

At least 6 dead and maybe more. Attempt was made to stop construction work at tunnel.

[Shameek]

4 attacks in 7 days: How terrorists are unleashing fear and chaos in Jammu and Kashmir.

There have been four different terror attacks in the past week, the last one occurring on Thursday evening (October 24) when two soldiers and two army porters were killed after terrorists attacked an Indian Army vehicle in Jammu and Kashmir’s Gulmarg.

Trend continues. Ambush at random areas, brief firefight to cause casualties and escape.

Link