MRCA News and Discussion

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 08 Aug 2010 06:27

Typhoon is almost certainly going to win this competition either wholly or the largest slice of the pie.
politically, tech wise, less chance of sanctions, lca engine this whole package is going to be difficult to beat for any competitor. I think price would be negotiated downwards

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 08 Aug 2010 06:29

I hope not, at 100 M+ a plane it's way too much.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 08 Aug 2010 06:40

Well carl we can not have the whole fighter fleet sourced from russia, even though i like them a lot and they are part of my family but by putting all the eggs in one basket you are asking for trouble.
Americans are too unreliable and I would not touch them with a 10 foot pole even though generally speaking they have the best tech ( though not in this case, their fighters are too old )
rafael by all accounts is a good plane and the air force clearly likes it but not as much political capital and the way the french were trying to squeeze our testicles over mirage upgrade and delay in scorpene,s etc, as well as their racist attitude . I would go for typhoon.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2010 06:43

Ram Narayanan says

ZOOM TV

Watch video:

http://zoomtv.smashits.com/video/18371/ ... force.html

Description:
After exhaustive trials of six fighter jets, Indian Air Force (IAF) has made its choice clear to the Government on the kind of fighter jets needed. Frontrunners for the force are French fighter Dassault Rafale and the Eurofighter Typhoon built by the European consortium. Bernhard Gerwert, Chief, EADS, says If you are taking into account the portfolio of EADS we can bring the bridge between civil aviation and military aviation. But the Americans and Russians have lost out. Boeings F18 no longer a frontrunner and Swedens Gripen too falling off the Indian radar.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 08 Aug 2010 07:07

wow..if this news is true, IAF made a fair trial and let the best wins.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 08 Aug 2010 07:51

If Unkil throws in UNSC seat (what if BO announces support for India openly), would India resist temptation? Remains to be seen, esp since BO is to visit India shortly. It is politics pure-play hereon - remains to be seen who plays it better and who gives out most to India - Europe or US? Cameron has already fired the first salvo.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 08:13

yantra wrote:If Unkil throws in UNSC seat (what if BO announces support for India openly), would India resist temptation

UNSC is too big thing to be affected by this deal, seriously. C'mon, this deal is not be all and end all for all involved countries.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 08 Aug 2010 08:26

^^ Agreed. But it does open a huge door for who-ever wins this to grab a plethora of opportunities in the defense and civilian sectors. It is not just this $12b at stake but an opportunity to partner for the next decade or so with India in so many areas that are opening up. Certainly gives who-ever wins a big advantage. And that is purely the reason for all the countries involved pulling their might. Else why would MMS call it a pure political decision beyond IAF trials?

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 08 Aug 2010 08:29

In a scenario that US loses out, they may 'enhance' their defense co-operation with Pak..hmm, that would be interesting.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 08 Aug 2010 08:36

If Unkil throws in UNSC seat (what if BO announces support for India openly), would India resist temptation? Remains to be seen, esp since BO is to visit India shortly. It is politics pure-play hereon - remains to be seen who plays it better and who gives out most to India - Europe or US? Cameron has already fired the first salvo.

The US can't throw in a UNSC seat! They still have to convince China to allow India membership. And that's not gonna be easy. A lot of people here complain about the EF's lack of A2G integration but that can be done by the time the first squadron is to be delivered to India. The EF countries haven't done the full integration yet cuz they don't need it right now. India will obviously want the full A2G weapons integration for their fighters. I don't know how long it would take but is shouldn't be more than 2+ years which is when the first squadron is scheduled to be delivered.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 08:37

yantra wrote:It is not just this $12b at stake but an opportunity to partner for the next decade or so with India in so many areas that are opening up. Certainly gives who-ever wins a big advantage. And that is purely the reason for all the countries involved pulling their might.

Huh...hardly an excuse for an UNSC seat! And why does it always have to be about money? That too with such strict offset clauses, I think self esteem and pride have a role to play here. Who would wanna lose a six way shootout among perhaps the best flying machines in the world (plz dont bring in the Raptor).

yantra wrote: Else why would MMS call it a pure political decision beyond IAF trials?

May be they're all good and all/most of them comply with the ASQR and the IAF doesn't mind having any of the shortlisted ones!

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 08 Aug 2010 08:40

In a scenario that US loses out, they may 'enhance' their defense co-operation with Pak..hmm, that would be interesting.

Pakistan is a double edged sword for the US, they need their help with Afghanistan but they know that they can't give anything top of the line to Pakistan cuz of china. The US hasn't transferred anything high-tech to Pakistan just cuz they loose the deal doesn't mean they will begin to.

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 08 Aug 2010 08:46

Well, here is the link and quote - just browsed through this and surprised to find:

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... contentTop

So, when US officials argued recently that India must reiterate its determination to strictly abide by its own export control laws that prevent any leakages of technology it may buy from the US in the future, they didn't expect the backlash they received from Delhi. The US officials, anticipating the opening of the high-technology floodgates, said they thought it was a simple enough request to make to the Indian government.

Instead, Delhi responded with its own set of demands.

The US should first support Indian membership in key non-proliferation-related groups like the Nuclear Suppliers Group, the Missile Technology Control Regime, the Australia group(dealing with chemical and biological weapons) and the Waassenaar group (export controls for conventional arms).

"We were stunned," one US official said,noting the US had expended considerable effort, even at the risk of alienating close allies like Pakistan, when it created an exception for India's nuclear status from 2005-2008.

"To ask for membership of these groups at this time was like asking for something fantastic, especially since India continues to refuse to sign the NPT. To think of doing this before the Obama visit is totally impossible," he said.

Countering the US demand, Indian officials argued that if US companies like Lockheed Martin and Boeing wanted their fighter jets to compete in the Indian Air Force's 126-Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal (MMRCA), worth $11 billion -- the largest defence deal on the global market today -- or cooperate in activities in outer space with India, then sanctions against these entities must go.

The signal was clear, said a South Asia analyst. India was baiting a recession-hit US with the idea of winning not only the MMRCA tender but also several others in the pipeline.

Looks like India is playing its cards well thought-out. Interesting times, no doubt are ahead

May be they're all good and all/most of them comply with the ASQR and the IAF doesn't mind having any of the shortlisted ones!

Really? Do you believe F-16 is as good as a Rafale/Typhoon?
Wait and see, I am sure India is playing this out strategically. It is definitely not money, as you said, but a lot of self-esteem and pride at play

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 08 Aug 2010 09:01

yantra wrote:Really? Do you believe F-16 is as good as a Rafale/Typhoon?

I also said "most" and "shortlisted"!

yantra · Post by **yantra** » 08 Aug 2010 09:08

b_patel wrote:
If Unkil throws in UNSC seat (what if BO announces support for India openly), would India resist temptation? Remains to be seen, esp since BO is to visit India shortly. It is politics pure-play hereon - remains to be seen who plays it better and who gives out most to India - Europe or US? Cameron has already fired the first salvo.
The US can't throw in a UNSC seat! They still have to convince China to allow India membership. And that's not gonna be easy. A lot of people here complain about the EF's lack of A2G integration but that can be done by the time the first squadron is to be delivered to India. The EF countries haven't done the full integration yet cuz they don't need it right now. India will obviously want the full A2G weapons integration for their fighters. I don't know how long it would take but is shouldn't be more than 2+ years which is when the first squadron is scheduled to be delivered.

Well they have done it before - convinced China to vote for the Indo-US nuclear deal at the NSG. Granted, they will have to pull stronger levers this time - but will they do it?

I will not be surprised if it is a split deal - with both Rafales and Typhoons featuring (assuming the news reports are true)!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Aug 2010 09:16

sometimes if you want a girl to accept your proposal, you ignore her and make out with another equally pretty girl for a while to keep the first girl on a hook and eventually relent and come chasing after you with better 'benefits' and reduced ego....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 09:17

KrishG wrote:EADS has a very strong marketing strategy, something lacking in the French effort.

French sell the MLM way. If you push you will get your commission. The entire chain gets commission. The advertising money is paid that way.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 08 Aug 2010 09:50

^^ The French are pure money-makers. They don't care what they are selling to whom. I bet if Pakistan wanted to buy the Rafael they would sell it them, after they have sold us the 125 fighters. And then that way they will get both Pakistan and India to be eagerly bidding for "upgrade packages" and that will help them rake in another cool $12 billion down the road which they will likely invest to research and develop their own Fifth gen fighter and try to sell us that again!

The French have no loyalty to their customers and their primary consideration is always their own bottom line. As for the EFs, the Saudis have them and that means the Pakis could get their hands on them also. Also, joining Euro-fighter consortium means dealing with the damn British and their ("why don't you spend your money on the 800 million poor people" or "We are giving you 200 million pounds aid and you are buying Eurofighters!") BS and condescending attitude.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 09:54

I would look @ French in a different way. They always turn up to the side "they feel" is under duress. They are very liberal minded. They will sell Mistral to their potential enemy.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 08 Aug 2010 10:01

yantra wrote:Well, here is the link and quote - just browsed through this and surprised to find:

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... contentTop

So, when US officials argued recently that India must reiterate its determination to strictly abide by its own export control laws that prevent any leakages of technology it may buy from the US in the future, they didn't expect the backlash they received from Delhi. The US officials, anticipating the opening of the high-technology floodgates, said they thought it was a simple enough request to make to the Indian government.

Instead, Delhi responded with its own set of demands.

The US should first support Indian membership in key non-proliferation-related groups like the Nuclear Suppliers Group, the Missile Technology Control Regime, the Australia group(dealing with chemical and biological weapons) and the Waassenaar group (export controls for conventional arms).

"We were stunned," one US official said,noting the US had expended considerable effort, even at the risk of alienating close allies like Pakistan, when it created an exception for India's nuclear status from 2005-2008.

"To ask for membership of these groups at this time was like asking for something fantastic, especially since India continues to refuse to sign the NPT. To think of doing this before the Obama visit is totally impossible," he said.

Countering the US demand, Indian officials argued that if US companies like Lockheed Martin and Boeing wanted their fighter jets to compete in the Indian Air Force's 126-Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft deal (MMRCA), worth $11 billion -- the largest defence deal on the global market today -- or cooperate in activities in outer space with India, then sanctions against these entities must go.

The signal was clear, said a South Asia analyst. India was baiting a recession-hit US with the idea of winning not only the MMRCA tender but also several others in the pipeline.
Looks like India is playing its cards well thought-out. Interesting times, no doubt are ahead

May be they're all good and all/most of them comply with the ASQR and the IAF doesn't mind having any of the shortlisted ones!

So it looks like the ball is in the hands of the idiots in the Obama administration. After the stupidity of sending a diplomat to the 65th Hiroshima anniversary I wouldn't expect anything out of them in terms of lifting sanctions on Indian entities.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 08 Aug 2010 10:02

I think we should first start doing away with the myth that this acquisition gives us any political benefits or leverage.

Tanveer · Post by **Tanveer** » 08 Aug 2010 10:21

Guys.. finally IAF has picked up its toy. Its between Typhoon and Rafale.
I thought F 18 would make in to the cut. But anyways choice seems logical.
F 16 & Mig 35 are old wine in new bottle, JAS Gripen is just a jet or more so LCA++++.
F18 is not there in the list means - dont put all your eggs in one basket... specially if that basket is made in Amreeka.

Now if out politicians are as logical as IAF(and also me

..) is then I think it is going to be Rafale.
Reasons-
Commonality with Mirage - less burden on infra...
Like Mirage it is expected to have high availability - would be a work horse like mirage.
It can take off and land on AC.

What say???
Tanveer

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 08 Aug 2010 10:24

But I guess the new says that there is still a chance for F-18, if the engine is ready.....?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 10:28

@ Tanveer, all that you say about Rafale might be correct but this deal is going to have wider Geo-political consequences and many alliances will be made or broken, France having low weight strategically compared to Europe, My two Pakistani Paise says its going to be eurof.

I don't think even the Frenches will be averse to this since they will also gain indirectly by this deal.After all France is a part of Europe Onlee.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 10:33

EU is a house of cards if the French are not there. Other than UK/France none have a military worth the salt. I am not saying buy rafales. I am saying that french are key. They will stand apart entire EU for their cause. Look how they engage US. Look at what they did when we tested our nooks.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Aug 2010 10:38

If EF is the winner then Guess no German Sub for Pak even 3.5 masters open check book.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Aug 2010 10:41

france has been kept well fed with huge airbus orders, potential A330 deal, scorpene deal, potential NH90 deal, turbomeca engines for Dhruv, M2k upgrade, milan missiles, thales sonars, ATR-72 orders and thermal imagers.....one can always argue for that last round of rice and payasam at the table, discounting the 10 courses that preceded it ofcourse.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 10:43

@ chackoji totally agree with you, the french will have to benefit more than any other country in Europe, this can also be through weapons integrated on EF or other purchases- military as well as nuke plants plus economy as a whole.
All I am saying is this that India seems to be choosing the Europeans as their partner and the french are a part of this.
Lastly it seems that India helped the Russians when they went to their downturn while helping itself .This time it seems they are going to align with the Europeans in their economic meltdown and help themselves(correctly in my opinion)
JMT

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 10:51

I want to share a joke with you. I was chatting up with one french (AF). I told him to take care of our Rambhas when they are in France for exercise. He said "um..well ok.... just ask them not to hurt our Rafales... hehehehe."

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 10:55

Got it chacko Ji

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 10:57

Manishw wrote:Got it chacko Ji

Thanks.

Added later...

You know, the FMS deals with US are in away of showing that. We have already done it to Russians.

Tanveer · Post by **Tanveer** » 08 Aug 2010 10:58

The term GEO-POLITICAL needs to be explained here.
What GEO-POLITICAL benefit one is expecting if typhoon wins?
And what happens if Rafale wins?
I am not a fan of Rafale. It is underpowered and Dassault is smaller than EADS......

'm confused!!

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 08 Aug 2010 11:00

Remember the good Ambassador to Italy, this is pure match fixing

Eurofighter leading race for India deal: Report
23 Jan 2010, 0916 hrs IST

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 11:01

Tanveer wrote:The term GEO-POLITICAL needs to be explained here.
What GEO-POLITICAL benefit one is expecting if typhoon wins?
And what happens if Rafale wins?
I am not a fan of Rafale. It is underpowered and Dassault is smaller than EADS......

'm confused!!

What we need is a medium bird. Not another MKI.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 11:05

chacko Ji You are a treasure trove

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 11:11

Manishw wrote:chacko Ji You are a treasure trove

Thanks gain. I will not burden you another PJ.

BTW any one feels that MRCA contest will get postponed more. I can feel 1000 pound US gorilla stomping already.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 11:14

Chacko Ji a bird told me it can stomp all it wants.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Aug 2010 11:17

Manishw wrote:Chacko Ji a bird told me it can stomp all it wants.

I agree,just dig in for a long MMRCA winter. I do not expect the decision very soon. See obama is visiting. British already did. Then we have french coming. Expect a big circus.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 08 Aug 2010 11:24

Chacko ji Pls correct me if I am wrong the bird also told me this is the deal on everybody's radar but we get our work done by flying under the radar.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 08 Aug 2010 11:56

Can't believe all this hoo haa over a Times Now report. BRFites should be more discerning. And in the unlikely event that the news is true, we should keep in mind that regardless of the IAF's recommendation, no Indian government is going to buy an aircraft that costs close to $100 million a pop. Like someone said above, remember the A330 deal (or rather what became of it).