J & K news and discussion

[svinayak]

Constitution is derived from the same "one land" and from the same "one people". It did not come from unknown place.

[Theo_Fidel]

Acharya,

This is OT but..

It may shock you that most of our constitution is based on British law. British law in turn is 90% based on Roman and Hellenic laws. So we in turn are mostly Roman.

Among many local legal systems the one with the most following was the code of Manu. This could be the basis of your local peoples law. Read it up some time, even the mullahs would have a laugh...

[SwamyG]

Also, no matter what we may think OA is the legitimate CM. He is the one who makes the call. We have to suck it up and deal with it. In all this tamasha OA is the one who has been let off the hook. He is the one who should have been named and shamed and publicly called out for not flying the flag. If even after that he refuses, it is his right not to. He can even forcibly prevent others from entering and flying any flag if he so chooses. In this matter, the states are almost completely sovereign.

How so? India does not have a pure Federal system. It is more centralized or unitary form of federalism. The Indian states do not have their own Constitutions. If I not mistaken, in the USA the States have their own Constitution. Yes, OA or others can always find some legalese to stop it. But if I were to go to California and insist that I hoist American flag; nobody will stop me. And this in a country that is more Federal than India.

Appendix I of Constitution talks about what is applicable to the State of J&K.

“248. Residuary powers of legislation.—Parliament has exclusive power to make any law with respect to—
7[(a) prevention of activities involving terrorist acts directed towards overawing the Government as by law established or striking terror in the people or any section of the people or alienating any section of the people or adversely affecting the harmony amongst different sections of the people;]


8[(aa)]9[prevention of other activities] directed towards disclaiming, questioning or disrupting the sovereignty and territorial
integrity of India or bringing about cession of a part of the territory of India or secession of a part of the territory of India from the Union or causing insult to the Indian National Flag, the Indian National Anthem and this Constitution; and.....

I am not a lawyer, let alone Constitutional expert; my simple mind thinks that if a political party wants to hoist the flag and people are going to disrupt it; then it can be construed as an activity towards insulting the flag or questioning and disrupting the sovereignty and territorial integrity of India.

[Prem]

If Civilizational aspect of India is just a airy philosophy and nothing in reality then it is better to let go J&k or sell it to the highest bidder from ME to China to America and just concentrate on economy and become another Phillipino society. There is more to country than economy, land ,border and order. How much more we need to shrink and keep smiling infront of naked agressions of all sorts before getting accepting nod from All-Pseudos? Please read Molloy Dhar's blog and if his assesment has even teeny weenie truth about the fire burning in the hearts of majority people then its about time Elites reverse the such calamity causing policies before it turns really ugly.
Its time for "tired old people" of Congress to retire before they ruin the whole country. If They cant catch up with the aspirations fo new India then stop dragging it down. There is no demand for Pseudo India build in the image of Pseudo Indians.

[svinayak]

Acharya,

This is OT but..

It may shock you that most of our constitution is based on British law. British law in turn is 90% based on Roman and Hellenic laws. So we in turn are mostly Roman.

Among many local legal systems the one with the most following was the code of Manu. This could be the basis of your local peoples law. Read it up some time, even the mullahs would have a laugh...

I am aware of it and have some legal background.
Indians are acutely aware of the vestige of colonial rule and they will remove it eventually.
The world is now going through decolonization and will revert back to indigenous people. Indians are waiting for the rest of the world to wake up.
British law is a common law built over its colonial experience. And we are not ROMAN!

[SwamyG]

Yes, you do as the state administration. The constitution gives you the right. You may choose not to exercise it but that is another matter. The J&K government is not doing anything illegal. If it was, there would be a court case in a heartbeat. Public safety/order, law and enforcement of both central and state laws is a State item. The right to fly the flag for individuals is a 'may' permissive clause. The Individual may fly the flag.. It can be curtailed at any point. I believe there is a communal use clause that specifically withdraws the permission.

All this one civilization philosophy is just that, philosophy. The constitution does not recognize any of it.

Yes, agreed the lawyers can find hazaar reason to terminate an activity - including the hoisting of the flag. But then it reflects the ground situation. Here we have a State where Pakistan flag gets unfurled, but on 26th Jan, our national flag cannot be flown by a political party.

If flying a national flag becomes a safety/order, law and enforcement issue....then it reflects very poorly about the people and the country.

[Theo_Fidel]

If flying a national flag becomes a safety/order, law and enforcement issue....then it reflects very poorly about the people and the country.

Agreed.

Per my legal acquaintance India is much more federal than the US except for Article 356. The US does not have a list concept for instance. So State law need not respond to federal law as in the US. Chief Ministers are almost inviolate. There is no recall provision for instance.

[SwamyG]

I am aware of it and have some legal background.
Indians are acutely aware of the vestige of colonial rule and they will remove it eventually.
The world is now going through decolonization and will revert back to indigenous people. Indians are waiting for the rest of the world to wake up.
British law is a common law built over its colonial experience.

Interesting.....see if you can get hold of "Dharma: The Categorical Imperative"

[SwamyG]

If flying a national flag becomes a safety/order, law and enforcement issue....then it reflects very poorly about the people and the country.

Agreed.

So apart from the above reasons, do you see anything else in our form of federal system where OA can stop it?

[svinayak]

If flying a national flag becomes a safety/order, law and enforcement issue....then it reflects very poorly about the people and the country.

What if some political groups and ideological groups such as secular one deliberately using media create a perception that it dangerous. Will that party be blamed for changing the countries condition of a nation state. They have broken the constitution of India.

[ramana]

Its Roman in origins thats why we have an Italian!

[svinayak]

Interesting.....see if you can get hold of "Dharma: The Categorical Imperative"

There is going to be dharma based society built in the future with dharmic laws and ethics. This will also reflect the 21st century human enlightenment.

[Theo_Fidel]

So apart from the above reasons, do you see anything else in our form of federal system where OA can stop it?

I've already mentioned that the flag code prohibits the communal uses of the flag. Either we all raise it together or no one does.

[ramana]

The discussion is going away for its core. The core is not Omar Abdullah's right to invoke the law but why is he doing it? So far the stated reasons are it will cause hurt to speratists sentiments and hence law and order situation. The chief interlocutor also said the same that BJP should be understanding. He doesnt expalin how it causes the separtists "hurt'. What about all the Kashmiri Muslims who were attacked by the separatists (Hurriyat faction, which is US supported) and their goons? No one cares for their hurt, if the flag is not flown?

Omar Abdullah appears to be the CM of the separatists(Hurriyat faction) only.

[nachiket]

So apart from the above reasons, do you see anything else in our form of federal system where OA can stop it?

I've already mentioned that the flag code prohibits the communal uses of the flag. Either we all raise it together or no one does.

Theo saar, what does "communal use" mean here? Does it mean that members of one or more religions/communities are not allowed to participate inthe flag hoisting ceremony? If that is the case, then this does not qulify as communal use.

[SwamyG]

So apart from the above reasons, do you see anything else in our form of federal system where OA can stop it?

I've already mentioned that the flag code prohibits the communal uses of the flag. Either we all raise it together or no one does.

What is communal about a political party raising a flag?

[Theo_Fidel]

SwamyG,

Here be dragons. Not going there.

Ramana,

I've already said the core point should have been getting OA to explain himself. It is definitely an un-patriotic thing to do. BJP should have and could still hammered him on this point.

[SwamyG]

thaliava...aasai kaati mosam panreengalae.... if you feel an itch to write....mail me at jee r yes @ gmail.com {remove the spaces}

others: just meaningless but friendly small talk - not much to translate there.

[Virupaksha]

SwamyG,

Here be dragons. Not going there.

Ramana,

I've already said the core point should have been getting OA to explain himself. It is definitely an un-patriotic thing to do. BJP should have and could still hammered him on this point.

Was Omar pulling Congress or Congress pulling Omar?

MMS is one who opens his mouth very very rarely. He was silent on innumerable occasions like radia gate, cash for votes etc etc. Many times you have to pinch yourselves that he exists. He will talk on economy/nuke deal but nothing else.

He didnt speak after the crisis on many times and almost never before that. So what made him open his mouth this time ?

[ramana]

Go back to reading Rajaram's analysis.

Guys banter with Theo is fine but understand on the core issue we are all together.

Dont be lost in the bushes.

[brihaspati]

ramana ji,
possibly there are subtle differences even on what the core issues are. That is reflected in what is thought of as the desirable strategy/approach/action. It partly depends on two simple questions - what to do with Pak as an entity, and what to do with Islamism. Those who are not sure that they really want Pak to be destroyed and removed completely as an entity will base a whole chain of arguments starting from that inner doubt - that essentially does not see the removal of Pak as a primary and uncompromisable goal. Same goes for attitudes to Islamism. Both these factors then lead to subtle differences (and sometimes not so subtle) in approach to the J&K situation.

[munna]

^B-ji kindly enlighten more on 'yatra' thread in response to my query.

[vera_k]

If the flag is such a non-issue according to the UPA, then why not have MMS hoist the Paki flag tomorrow? And on the red fort? It will satisfy plenty of Saeed types, and everyone can live happiy ever after.

[SwamyG]

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/for-5 ... k/742246/0

“In 1994, two years after then BJP president Murli Manohar Joshi unfurled the national flag there on January 26, 1992, Pakistan-based militants dared Indians to unfurl the Tricolour at Lal Chowk. They also announced a reward of Rs 2 lakh to anyone who did so. We decided to take up the challenge and managed to do it,” recalled Yogesh Gupta, chief of the J&K unit of the Akhil Bharatiya Shiv Sena.

While in 1992, Joshi, along with a handful of BJP leaders, was airlifted to Srinagar and unfurled the flag under tight security, Gupta and his “boys” played hide-and-seek with the security establishment to be able to carry out their “mission”.

“The first time, we were around 3,500-4,000 Indians who were proceeding to Kashmir. We were stopped and detained at Udhampur — about 80 kms from Jammu. After we were released in the evening and told to go back to Jammu, I and six-seven other activists managed to sneak into Srinagar, and on January 26, at 12 noon, we reached Lal Chowk and started raising pro-India slogans. The shops were closed as the Valley was shut down on the call of the separatists. But, immediately after we hoisted the flag, we were bundled into cars and left near the Banihal Tunnel. When I returned to Jammu, I held a press conference to ask the militants to send me the reward money. While the money didn’t come, I received death threats from the JKLF,” he said.

He added, with considerable pride, that even the “BBC London” broadcast news of his “daring act” on January 26, 1994.

“Thereafter, every year, we repeated the job. Once, five or six of us simply caught the Indian Airlines flight to Srinagar for the purpose. But, it was never our intention to cause any rift between Hindus and Muslims. In fact, a lot of our members are Muslims. We once stayed at a Kashmiri Muslim family’s house in Anantnag for two days before the D-Day. That it why I think, the BJP yatra is misguided,” he said.

Gupta is not too enthused by the BJP youth wing’s latest programme to unfurl the national flag at Lal Chowk. “While their (BJP) stand that since Kashmir is an integral territory of India, there shouldn’t be any bar on hoisting the flag at Lal Chowk is correct, I am not sure what purpose will be achieved by doing so at this juncture when the state is trying to come out of the shadows of armed conflict. I think the BJP has made its point and should now accept the request of the state and central governments and give up the Yatra without precipitating matters,” he said.

He added that successive governments in the state have failed to bring Kashmir closer to India. “Chief Minister Omar Abdullah is also playing partisan politics when he asks the BJP to give up its yatra. He is only trying to hide the failures of his government,” he said.

[Rudradev]

Just as a hypothetical case study:

Let us say the Shiv Sena is upset about something and does a lot of bus-burning and stone throwing one particular week, in Mumbai.

The next week is Moharram. Shi'a Muslim citizens of India exercise their fundamental right by taking out a procession. Suddenly, Shiv Sainiks fall on the procession with bottles and stones and knives, killing many of the devotees. After this the Sena engages in street battles with Muslims and against the police, torching shops, vandalizing homes and places of business. Many lives are lost.

So in this situation, to the respected posters quoted above: What is the correct application of law and order?

Should Moharram processions be banned in following years, just in case the Shiv Sena gets some khujli a few weeks ahead of time and therefore might use Moharram as a pretext to commit violence and vandalism?

Should the right of the Moharram devotees to engage in religious ceremonial procession be abrogated, because there is a "fear" of "violence and disorder" by Shiv Sena vandals breaking the law?

This is a hypothetical case only. The true colors come only when it materializes. Until then the standard answer of [sic] seculars would be "Moharram will be banned" because they know that the situation will never arise.

Actually the true colors are already coming out, for any who care to see them.

Easy answer. Moharram procession is not a "fundamental right". Even if it were, it is not absolute and subject to public order, public health , "morality" etc. In a tense , surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed, the right can be abridge and any administration worth it's salt will abridge it for that particular occasion. Notice that it doesn't mean that the procession is banned for the next years or the years hence, if the situation does not warrant such a thing.

Answers always come easy when the brain isn't taxed too hard.

Moharram is not a "fundamental right"? It seems to me that from the very preamble of the Indian constitution,

LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

the right to assemble peaceably for the purposes of a religious procession is a fait accompli.

What can be deduced from this "answer", such as it is, is that the fundamental rights of all Indian citizens should stand abrogated whenever there is a "tense, surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed."

Assuming Vina-ji would be even-handed about his decision to ban Muharram processions because of the "fear of a Shiv Sena riot", and that he isn't simply doing so because of the vicious communal hate-baggage he carries against Shi'a Muslims

it follows that his view, and presumably the view of the political party he bats for, can be summed up as follows:

"The rights of the many to express themselves peacefully must be held hostage to the threats of a few whenever those few are intent on creating civic strife, and capable of causing violent public breakdown of law and order."

Shorn of all the Hindu-Muslim, UP-J&K, Karnataka-Tamil Nadu analogies that some people have sought to forcibly impose on this question as a backdrop... seen only in the light of a government and its people of all communities and religions... the following question is begged.

Isn't it the job of the government to prevent ANY group from causing violent public breakdown of law and order, SO THAT the constitutional right of the many to express themselves peacefully can be upheld?

Isn't that what the constitution empowers the government to do? Isn't that why the government has access to the kinds of resources that made the Commonwealth Games such a dazzling display of good preparation, or the sale of 2G bandwidth such a model of efficient and profitable disinvestment? Isn't that why the government has access to the sort of power that enables them to arrest Hindoo terrorists, hold them without trial for years, and torture them so severely that they confess to crimes known to have been the work of Lashkar-e-Taiba?

Otherwise, what makes them a "government"? Carte blanche to carry on "dalali" with American nuclear reactor suppliers? The promotion of crony capitalists in the name of "8% growth" that ends up feeding their own Swiss bank accounts before the common people see a single naya paisa of it?

This explains the real difference between the BJP and the INC. It is not, as the INC will try to tell you, that BJP is "communal" while INC is "secular". It is that the INC has completely, utterly abdicated its responsibilities to governing the country while feeding itself fat off the public exchequer. Meanwhile, the BJP stands up for the right of the common Indian to express himself, even in the face of "law and order threats" which the government has not only failed, but abdicated its very responsibility to quell.

[RamaY]

Guys banter with Theo is fine but understand on the core issue we are all together.

Long time ago I ranted on this.

The core definition of Bharat is getting questioned. What I noticed in this debate is that some minds redefining the core of Bharat as the transformation due to colonial past be it Christian or Islamic. They do not view the core of Bharat as the civilization that preexisted the colonial period. For these minds the post partition aberration of J&K is the reality and there exists no J&K that is undeniably Indian.

[svinayak]

What I noticed in this debate is that some minds redefining the core of Bharat as the transformation due to colonial past be it Christian or Islamic. They do not view the core of Bharat as the civilization that preexisted the colonial period. For these minds the post partition aberration of J&K is the reality and there exists no J&K that is undeniably Indian.

This is the socially engineered view of Bharat. This needs to be questioned and then nullified since there is no basis for this. According to them India and Indian society started only in 1947 and this is exactly what the west and their allies want the rest of the world to believe. The EJs are trying to use this to separate and build different communities. There is too many money flowing to keep this version. It is a danger signal.

[Mahendra]

No one lets it rip like Rudraji does. No body better than him to nail lies and liars.

[Rudradev]

RamaY, a light bulb moment.

We are no different than Pakistan. We are going the same way they are, on a much larger scale.

Pakistan has a RAPE. We have the RANDE (Rich Anglophone Narcissistic Desi Elite.) It is these people, and no other, who can bring themselves to express such ideas as "raising the national flag on Republic Day is needlessly provocative."

Today the RANDE control much of the English-language media in India, and they repeat these sorts of things to each other and to their Western friends, over cocktails and kababs in their drawing rooms.

For them, the poor are an underclass tailor-made for vote banking and exploitation; the middle class are a target for manipulation by preying on their aspirations for greater wealth and their fear of instability. For them, the minorities are a convenient focus whenever a drama of issue-based identity politics is needed for electoral purposes.

For them, the Hindu is dispensable; he will go meekly along with everything they tell him, believe every lie, suffer every slight, sit quietly like a farm animal while he is subjected to the grossest kinds of slander, indignity, injustice and persecution. And if ever he bands together with other Hindus and gets the idea in his head to protest... he can be branded public enemy #1, the "greatest threat to national security", and eliminated. There are plenty more sheep where he came from... he will no longer be tolerated if he grows into a Man.

This is how today's RANDE thinks of the Hindu. This is how the RAPE once thought of the aam Pakistani Muslim. We are seeing the results of that today.

[Prem]

Flag is not important, majority is not important, philosophy is not important, national history and culture is not important,National security is not important , corruption is not important, constituion is not important, parliament is not important , elections not important and list goes on then what is sacrosanct and important about the Country called India ? Convenience of Congress,PSers and their ardent belivers only ?

[dnivas]

^ claps...

[ramana]

To get the true nature of the group the vowel has to be replaced.

However thanks for elaborating on the concept of DIE. This is a ruling super set of the DIE.

[SwamyG]

Flag is not important, majority is not important, philosophy is not important, national history and culture is not important,National security is not important , corruption is not important, constituion is not important, parliament is not important , elections not important and list goes on then what is sacrosanct and important about the Country called India ? Convenience of Congress,PSers and their ardent belivers only ?

Economic progress at all costs.

[munna]

Avante Garde performance Rudradevji! The sudden support for Ekta Yatra started by YM took even the seniors by surprise. Even I am surprised being the cynic I am. The "we are socialists" era lasted full 20 years between 1970 to 1990. Let us see how long this "we are crony capitalists" lasts.

[ramana]

There are still two unexplained things. One is Omar's insecurity and the other is the Central govt cracking down so hard and resorting to subterfuge. Rajaram's take is one explanation. What else is goign on?

Press reports show the yatra was planned 4 months ago by a section of BJYM and it took on a life of its own. The BJP also didnt expect the popular support. The public reaction along the yatra path was unexpected and hence the Central response was also unexpected. Why the need for subterfuge? And also note the Center is making sure they don't make martyrs of the Yatriks. Arrest is being done most reluctantly. So idea is not give political mileage.

Ind Exp...

Why BJP elders hopped on youth bandwagon

[krisna]

Tension on Kashmir-Punjab border as BJP rally marches on

Armoured vehicles, water-cannon trucks, teargas equipment and riot-control vehicles and personnel were stationed to thwart any attempt by the BJP leaders and activists to enter Jammu and Kashmir. Wired fencing was put up all across the bridge to prevent anyone from crossing it.
Security forces in Jammu and Kashmir and Punjab sealed the Pathankot-Jammu national highway, NH-1A -- the only road link that Jammu and Kashmir has with the rest of the country. The strategic Jammu-Srinagar highway was also shut to traffic to scuttle attempts by BJP activists to sneak into the Kashmir Valley.

Cant believe this- BJP activists who are also Indians without any weapons except Indian flags are treated like this.
The yatra went thru many states(around 11) and no violence occurred.

Chief Minister Omar Abdullah was elated with the central government's unqualified support in stopping the BJP march to Srinagar and the treatment meted out to three top party leaders, sources say.

It is total lie by all and sundry that OA is acting alone. without central backing he would not have done this. So central govt is responsible. If PC or some one in the central govt had asked OA to allow small group of Indians , it would have been done with less media coverage. It would have been a win win situation. The question as many have pointed out here why did central govt take a tough stance on nationalists and played with kid gloves with the separatists.

The chief minister, officials added, personally monitored the 'deportation' of Jaitley, Sushma Swaraj and Ananth Kumar and has reportedly instructed police that anyone entering Jammu and Kashmir from Punjab with the tricolour should be dealt with.

This is really bad.





mark your protest

[Prem]

Please Change the RANDE to RANDI . I stands for Idiots.

[Prem]

Economic progress at all costs.

Its already hapenning inspite of the GOI. You cant have real progress by selling Desh and giving concession to defeated, dying enemy. Nothing will be left of Desh with this kind of cost paid for accelrating growth by few years. Even war seems better,cheaper option than this kind of game by RANDE/I.

[krisna]

Trying hard to make some sense of the central govt moves. the interlocutors job is-

Interlocutors now talk of 'azaadi' in Kashmir

“The Indian constitution is a beautiful document and there is room for modification with changing times and we can even recommend for the amendments in the Constitution to accommodate the discussions on the Kashmir issue and to find the solution to the problem in line with the aspirations of the Kashmiris...If there comes a time when all parties to the Kashmir issue decided on a solution, and that solution is not within Indian constitution, Indian Parliament can amend it,” Ms Radha Kumar, one of the three interlocutors, told reporters here at the end of a four-day visit to the Valley.
While clarifying that this was only her “personal belief”, Ms Kumar said the Constitution had been amended more than 400 times and there is no harm if it is modified further to make it more accommodative.

Incidentally, the government on Wednesday made light of Ms Kumar’s remarks on discussing “azaadi”, saying that azaadi may mean different things for different people. “If azaadi means discussing freedom from overbearing presence of security forces in civilian areas, what is the harm in discussing it,” asked a senior government official.

Dileep Padgaonkar, elaborating on his suggestion to the students of J&K region to prepare a roadmap for azaadi, explained that “what we proposed in the Valley may be good for Kashmir and not good for people of Jammu or Leh”. “But, we want to take everyone along and keep in mind the viewpoints of all the three regions of Jammu and Kashmir and people of India,” Mr Padgaonkar said.
“Next time when we come (to Kashmir), let us discuss azaadi and its economic and strategic implications. We have to discuss it threadbare. If this is your wish, we can discuss it,” Mr Padgaonkar had said.

The head of the three-member panel, Dileep Padgoankar, while interacting with mediapersons in Jammu and Kashmir also wished to take leaders of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir on board to find the permanent solution to the Kashmir issue.

look at the statement- if the solution is not in INDIAN constitution, the parliament can amend it.
what does this mean.
Does the above tally in sync with others as mentioned by gurus here.

OTOH if it is just chai biskoot talks then why the heavy handed measures against the Indians to raise the flag. they could have roped in the opposition party and informed them of the measures done.
something is cooking.

[V_Raman]

What else is goign on?

Several things....

1. diverting attention from 2G scam -- save INC
2. diverting attention from aseemanand -- save BJP

bring awareness on kashmir among the general populace and how important it is to india -- back off on any concessions due to national sentiment -- priceless!

other benefits
OA is more exposed as being a kashmir only figure
Hurriyat becoming more irrelevant due to its irrelevance in all this
pak a mere spectator and not an influence in any of this -- indians control the destiny of kashmir -- significant one

chankian onlee...

in the end, this might be a grand political bargain by both the parties for each others benefit.