Indian Education System

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 06:32

This 'CGPA' brings the shivers. That is the base-10 system that they used to have in the 1970s. The system used to allow lots of chances to take "Supple"s for each course to eventually pass. If you didn't clear the Supples the next semester or over the summer, then you lost a year. But you didn't get kicked out until you had failed several times. Otherwise my class would have been down to 6 by the end of 5 years. And that's with 2 ppl having the 45% pass standard to help them. But they went on to become top Babus. There has to be much more behind this story - the faculty Senate is not going to vote to kick out all these kids without some serious cause - did these worthies come in via the VYAPAM route I wonder....

BTW, this is hilarious if it weren't so pathetic. But I don't see where it says that they get kicked out for non-performance.

I don't remember any such form when I was getting in. The whole process was much more adult-level and dignified. This form is ludicrous:

I undertake not to walk around campus with my mijjile hanging out.
I undertake not to moon the Director when the PM is visiting
I undertake not to poo on the Director's Mercedes.
I undertake not to pee into the petrol tank of the Hostel Warden's Scooter.

All countersigned by PARENTS!!!

In our day the cardinal rule was to ***NEVER** let parents in on anything going on at college. Worst was when they called us all into the Central Lecture Theatre, airconditioned and all, when we refused to go to the NCC grounds because they were cheating us out of the banana and soap allowance.

We will tell your parents!

(That we refused to keep getting cheated by the NCC baboons stealing our banana and soap allowance? I think we would have survived that.. so their threat fell flat)

We will kick you all out and run the Institute without the First and Second Year Students!

Somehow that did not sound credible even to them.

They made NCC optional and much more civilized. Can't remember if we ever got the bananas and soap allowance, though.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Jul 2015 06:38

Hope there is no political storm over this now.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 06:50

Good grief! This is worse than the IDBI PIS Opening Phorm!

9.Declaration by the Student:
• I do hereby agree to abide by all the Ordinances/Statutes and Regulations of the Institute in force from time to time.
•I do hereby certify that entries made by me in this form are correct to the best of my knowledge.
•I do hereby solemnly declare that I have not been debarred at any time from joining any educational
Institution or rusticated from the Institution/University last attended.
• I declare that I have not been associated (actively or passively) with any unlawful organisation in the past nor I would associate myself with such organizations in future.
• I hereby solemnly declare that I will maintain good conduct throughout my stay at this Institute.
• I understand that the Institute reserves the right to cancel my admission at any time during my stay at the Institute, if the Institute is satisfied that it was in the interest of the Institute to do so.
Date: .........................
Full Signature of the Student.............

But I still don't see the part about

I agree that if I flunk courses I will get kicked out onlee yaar

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 11 Jul 2015 07:14

UlanBatori wrote:I am so out of it. What is this JEE Advanced? What happened to the aam JEE?
The successful students will fill 10,006 seats of 18 IITs and ISM Dhanbad. This year IIT-Bombay had conducted JEE Advanced.
Students can see the result on http://www.jeeadv.iitb.ac.in.
Total of 124,741 students had registered for the examination.
TEN THOUSAND? Phooey! So much for exclusivity. In my din the total was ~ 1000. Number taking the test was still way over 100,000. That's top 1%. 10,000/100,000 is top 10%.

JEE Advanced is what you have to give after clearing JEE Mains, for which ~12 lakh ppl appear. So yes, Mains selects 10% , and then Advanced selects 10% of that, so overall its only 1%. For all that exclusivity, I've found the average IITian to be actually pretty dumb. I guess over-coaching is to blame.

I'm in two minds about this expulsion thing. On one hand the quality of teaching and course relevance is often so low that no wonder students don't want to study. On the other hand, getting < 5 GPA is practically an achievement in itself, especially in the first year because 1st year is just a rehash of JEE/12th std, just done properly and not like coachings. ( I was able to get 10 in first yr with minimal effort )

IMO carrot and stick policy should be used. Instead of having 5-7 courses per sem, bring it down to 3-4 but do them properly, with more course flexibility and practical emphasis, but also stop academic dishonesty by severe punishment. By a crude estimate I would say that these days about 25% of the students cheat in exams and 75% copy assignments. This is academic poison. It really turns off people who do want to learn.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 11 Jul 2015 07:37

I think that the kick-out might send a message to all the IITs that ppl need to study the basic stuff in the 1st and 2nd year, not presume to advise the teachers on what and how they should be taught, on the basis of all their kindergarten and middle school experience. I don't know about NCC, but every single other thing we (were supposed to) learn(ed) in the 1st 2 years has proved useful at least for me. Most particularly the skills taught in the Fitting Shop Gulag where I learned enough about filing to be able to crack open pretty-much any door lock inside 5 mins. The physics, math and organic chemistry ("Why should aerospace engineers be taught organic chemistry?") were all absolutely relevant and on target - and all the stuff I failed to learn in Engineering Mechanics, Optics, Calculus,Machine Design,Electrical Machines, Quantum Physics, Nuclear Physics, has ALL haunted me for decades. People who 'get' the first year stuff basically have an easy life ever after. I did not, and deeply regret it.

The NCC was a valuable experience as well, at least the part about learning to shoot, and the

of watching laggard classmates having to run around the parade ground with rifle raised above the head. Learned to tighten belt and polish shoes and buckles and salute, too.

Once some grad students and other pompous asses tried to educate the Director on what should be taught. Answer:

Decisions on how to run the Indian Institute of Technology are not taken in hostel common rooms or coffee shops.

+400.

As for courses having to 'engage' and entertain the brats, my attitude is, hey, there were 124,000 others whose places u r taking, so either use the opportunity, get with the program and learn science and engineering, or get the **** out - v ain't here to wipe ur musharraf 4 u. You don't go join the Olympics training team and then sit around whining :I am not being ENERTAINED, this is sooo BORING! You get ur ass kicked out pronto.

Thing I don't understand about JEE Advanced is why they say "student from IITXYZ passed the JEE Advanced". How can they select or be inside an IIT before passing the Advanced, Saurabhji?

csaurabh · Post by **csaurabh** » 11 Jul 2015 08:01

UlanBatori wrote: Thing I don't understand about JEE Advanced is why they say "student from IITXYZ passed the JEE Advanced". How can they select or be inside an IIT before passing the Advanced, Saurabhji?

As I understand passing the Advanced doesn't necessarily mean you get IIT. About 26000 cleared JEE Advanced this year ( I think it is also used for NITs and some other colleges ). However I don't think you can get IIT without passing advanced, unless talking about Post-Graduate programs etc.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 11 Jul 2015 08:42

csaurabh wrote: JEE Advanced is what you have to give after clearing JEE Mains, for which ~12 lakh ppl appear. So yes, Mains selects 10% , and then Advanced selects 10% of that, so overall its only 1%. For all that exclusivity, I've found the average IITian to be actually pretty dumb. I guess over-coaching is to blame.

Not really over-coaching, but also a lack of enthusiasm for hands-on experimentation (which is actually a common Indian failing, not just restricted to IITians). Swear to God, one guy I knew in Mech Engg. in IIT and during his third year, I discovered that he didn't know where the spark-plug on his moped was (or that it even had a spark plug). When asked about engines, he said he knew about the carnot cycle, but couldn't see how it applied to his moped. Turns out he imagined that the cylinder would be moved over a cold source, then the piston would be pushed down, then it would be moved over a heat source etc. just like you learn in school when studying the carnot cycle. Guy couldn't be persuaded to get his hands dirty to save his life. This attitude was not unique to him, but to most of his classmates as well.

Disclaimer: I grew up in one of the IITs and my dad's an IIT prof. About 12 kids from the street I grew up in passed the JEE. Out of all of them one took an engineering job (and he passed away a few years ago) and another one is an engineering professor in a school somewhere in the midwest. One of the other guys didn't go to IIT for B.Tech, but did his M.Tech and PhD there and last I heard, he works for some French outfit in engineering. Rest of the guys all did an MBA after their B.Tech and do nothing with engineering at all.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 11 Jul 2015 09:37

^^ true..True even for medicine...In fact when kids go to wards for clinics they can't correlate what is written in the book with what they do on a patient...

I bet that guy would even have holes in his theory....even though he may be able to describe the Carnot cycle as explained in his book , he ll not be able to solve well designed problems on it...we are in a a big mess.

med students in India would be able to quote passages from massive textbooks ...but require special coaching to get through the USMLE...They ll be able to quote all features of rare syndromes like McCune albright syndrome...but will have great difficulty in understanding the physiology of acid base and electrolyte balance...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 10:27

Yesterday, a question was asked by one of the aspirants for IIST to its Director Mr Dasgupta. What is the world ranking of Indian R&D Laboratories and Technical Education Institutions in India and what is the position of IIST in that? Mr Dasgupta admitted that none of Indian Institutions are in top 100 of world ranking. However he mentioned that IISt has MOU with CatTech and every year one topper from Aerospace Eng is sent for MS course there fully funded. He also stated that they were trying to meet the requirements on the various parameters of Ranking so as to come within Top 100 of world's best Institutions.Parents were clearly comparing the pay-packet of private and ISRO ( three year compulsory job if offered) and were quite apprehensive that they may not opt for job in private sector or go for MS in higher institutions before three year lien expires.

The problem with the counseling was that , though they tried their best to do it in old fashioned way, it created a lot of burden on the parents and organisers , which was unnecessary if they are taking 70 students. Most of them have offers from first round of counseling in JoSAA (JEE admission for IITs and NITs) and were there just to test the waters. Better to include it in Joint Counseling to avoid expenditure and hassles.

Again , they also mentioned that though they wanted to increase intake and introduce more subjects , funding is the issue. I was just thinking of Rs 2600 cr spent on Martya Sen in Nalanda University for nothing better than third rate university guest house type building.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Jul 2015 11:07

Parents are being stupid...A 3 years job experience at ISRO would be a crown jewel of any resume ... Companies anywhere in the world would hire the guy without giving a second thought ... I don't see why boeing or lockheed or spacex would not want to hire such a person...In fact they ll fall over each other for such a person...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 11:24

Apparently that is not the case. Now there is no 100% job guarantee with ISRO as it has become vacancy based. Experience would not come and being narrow specialisation job options are limited. If you get absorbed in ISRO your start would be at 45000 PM + . Parents compare that to 1,00,000 PM a private sector job opening gives them in IIT. Besides number of offerings are more.

However , experience in ISRO would be good and they offer better facilities than run of the mill engineering colleges.

Lockheed or Boeing do not visit IIST for campus recruitment and do not fall over each other or go gaga for recruiting IIST students. He did mention that one guy got internship in Lockheed but apparently by his own effort.

for 70 seats they called 2000 aspirants so not all could be accommodated and there was a huge wait list. Don't know why. They should better join JoSAA for joint counseling.

Alumni network of IIT gives huge advantage over others.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 12 Jul 2015 11:26

if I run a space agency , I would do my best from preventing foreign companies from poaching my people..

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 15:30

UlanBatori wrote:I am so out of it. What is this JEE Advanced? What happened to the aam JEE?
The successful students will fill 10,006 seats of 18 IITs and ISM Dhanbad. This year IIT-Bombay had conducted JEE Advanced.
Students can see the result on http://www.jeeadv.iitb.ac.in.
Total of 124,741 students had registered for the examination.
TEN THOUSAND? Phooey! So much for exclusivity. In my din the total was ~ 1000. Number taking the test was still way over 100,000. That's top 1%. 10,000/100,000 is top 10%.

Don't forget the denominator is also much larger approx 14 Lakhs in the first round ((JEE Mains) which is the qualification round for the second round (JEE advanced )) and then 1.5 Lakhs in the second round. The 1.2 L figure is for the second round only. So your number is not accurate. Your denominator is actually nearly 14 Lakhs.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 15:46

IIST has the first right of recruitment for all students who get a CGPA above 7.5. yes it is vacancy based but the standard retirement rate is approx 300/year and they admit 130-140 students every year so it is actually less than 50% of vacancies so in fact even if all get a CGPA above 7.5 they would be recruited. Facts are the number of people actually getting above 7.5 is around 50 %. Actually this time the things are simpler than last time where there was no JOSAA and there was a seperate selection board for IIT (JOCSAP) and NIT's(CSAB) and it was much worse.
The thing about IIST is they ahve this physical counselling because they want to make it clear that the bond will be strictly enforced, the penalities wrt breaking the bond and also the no nonsense nature of the course and more importantly what do the course entail(They ahve 3 branches - aerospace , avionics and engineering physics).
It is actually a great place to study if one is serious wrt studies and they give a lot of encouragement. Students can participate in an actual rocket and satellite project and also they can do additional projects of their liking .They also have excellent lab facitlities and access to ISRO's facilities.To put it in perspective the course is such that the topper in aerospace who goes to GALCIT (CALTECH) gets an accelerated MS there in 9 months based on CALTECH team evaluating their syllabus and course work. This is actually sponsored by the department of space and is called the Satish Dhawan endowment in memory of Sathish Dhawan who was a Professor of GALCIT before coming to India. The first student to go there suitably impressed the faculty there and passed out winning their top prize in aerospace called "The Abdul Kalam Prize" (which was endowed by Abdul Kalam there) and the boy has come back to work in VSSC .There are students there who have given up IIT seats to be able to study there and work in ISRO(I can say that for sure). times are slowly changing.

The thing is that this university does not take part in "scoring/rankings" by its very nature . It is also unique as it is one of the worlds 3 space universities and the only one running an undergraduate program.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 16:02

The thing that is mentioned is that you need to complete 22 Credits by the first year or else you will be evicted.That is 22 Credits out of 44 credits ie you should have passed at least 50 % of the subjects with a CGPA above 5 in the first two semesters. If you have not done that you are out.
This is actually not a bad thing - it allows people who cannot cope with the course to move on and join state courses or any other course as they have such a backlog that they cannot make up .I have seen the same thing happen with MBBS and paramedical courses.where ATKT was liberal(allowed to keep terms) and frankly it would be a vicious spiral.
I know some centrally funded institutes that have had 10% of people kicked out due to this policy. It is being conveniently raised this time more for mischief but it cannot cut ice.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 20:24

prasannasimha wrote:IIST has the first right of recruitment for all students who get a CGPA above 7.5. yes it is vacancy based but the standard retirement rate is approx 300/year and they admit 130-140 students every year so it is actually less than 50% of vacancies so in fact even if all get a CGPA above 7.5 they would be recruited. Facts are the number of people actually getting above 7.5 is around 50 %. Actually this time the things are simpler than last time where there was no JOSAA and there was a seperate selection board for IIT (JOCSAP) and NIT's(CSAB) and it was much worse.
The thing about IIST is they ahve this physical counselling because they want to make it clear that the bond will be strictly enforced, the penalities wrt breaking the bond and also the no nonsense nature of the course and more importantly what do the course entail(They ahve 3 branches - aerospace , avionics and engineering physics).
It is actually a great place to study if one is serious wrt studies and they give a lot of encouragement. Students can participate in an actual rocket and satellite project and also they can do additional projects of their liking .They also have excellent lab facitlities and access to ISRO's facilities.To put it in perspective the course is such that the topper in aerospace who goes to GALCIT (CALTECH) gets an accelerated MS there in 9 months based on CALTECH team evaluating their syllabus and course work. This is actually sponsored by the department of space and is called the Satish Dhawan endowment in memory of Sathish Dhawan who was a Professor of GALCIT before coming to India. The first student to go there suitably impressed the faculty there and passed out winning their top prize in aerospace called "The Abdul Kalam Prize" (which was endowed by Abdul Kalam there) and the boy has come back to work in VSSC .There are students there who have given up IIT seats to be able to study there and work in ISRO(I can say that for sure). times are slowly changing.

The thing is that this university does not take part in "scoring/rankings" by its very nature . It is also unique as it is one of the worlds 3 space universities and the only one running an undergraduate program.

What all you ,mentioned here was also informed by the Director. very factual and indeed a correct position. It provides full funding with rs 3000 as Book allowance. So I don't see why students who decide to join IIST would not like to work in IRSO labs. They certainly want to work. I was mentioning what happened at the counseling as many parents come there for free education with no liability. Which is a stupid thing to expect. And providing 7.5 CGPA limit for availing free education make one work harder. It also gave me impression that its method is more practical oriented given the advantage of labs it has access to. And yes many IIT confirmed students were there and they opted for it. I think it kind of validates JEE selection process as students go on to do very well in foreign institutes. So far only two have gone to caltech and third one is selected. Fully funded by IRSO/DOS.

They should opt for JoSAA. Physical presence is not needed at all.

Its not a question of participation in ranking process. Agencies do it on their own based on certain standards. But Director's local representative mentioned that they are trying to meet requisite standards to come within 100 top institutes of the world.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 12 Jul 2015 21:06

ArmenT wrote:Not really over-coaching, but also a lack of enthusiasm for hands-on experimentation (which is actually a common Indian failing, not just restricted to IITians). Swear to God, one guy I knew in Mech Engg. in IIT and during his third year, I discovered that he didn't know where the spark-plug on his moped was (or that it even had a spark plug). When asked about engines, he said he knew about the carnot cycle, but couldn't see how it applied to his moped. Turns out he imagined that the cylinder would be moved over a cold source, then the piston would be pushed down, then it would be moved over a heat source etc. just like you learn in school when studying the carnot cycle. Guy couldn't be persuaded to get his hands dirty to save his life. This attitude was not unique to him, but to most of his classmates as well.

I second that, and never understood this. To me it is so much fun to do things with my hands. I hate sitting behind a desk and staring at screen all day. On the other hand I failed my practicals as I was the one student who actually knew how to weld and disagreed with my professor on proper grounding techniques. The way he was doing it was dangerous. He failed me on the spot, fortunately I could apply for Condonation and the vice.c took pity on me and allowed me to graduate... ..by the skin of my teeth. Its a good thing none of my peers was interested in actually doing welding the way they were taught, probably a few would have paid for it with their lives.

BTW a few months ago I took a course on Aluminium welding and sat for the licensing exam and am now a licensed welder with the ability to passably weld Aluminium.
----------------------------

BTW I don't really understand this hoo haa over failing 73 students. In the USA in my first year out of 280 students in the structures class. only 80 or so passed. At the end of 5 years only 30 or so graduated. The rest moved on to other gentler majors, many dropped out eventually, a few are out there, a couple are excellent graphic designers, one became a policeman... ..incredibly a couple are still in college, studying... ..gods knows what....

If they were not cutting it in that course, they should be gently be reminded to move on to a less challenging course...

It seems like the IIT's spend an inordinate amount of time acting as stress test gatekeepers and a vanishingly small time developing Technology. Kinda like Hogwarts, really, all kinds of torture routines that doesn't seem to actually create any technology...

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 21:25

One of the problems with rankings is the "employability quotient" or something like that which unfortunately ISRO can never meet because technically ISRO is their only hirer. This immediately deceases the rankings using the systems that are being bandied around for rankings.
Indeed I wish they had used JOSAA (I have had my ward suffer through the entire process last year and worse still it is a tremendous strain on parents and to be honest IIT's crib that 10% of their seats gets wasted every year and they are themselves to blame- in fact JOSAA was due to a kick in the pants by the supreme court that virtually had to get the IIT selection chief and tell him - if you are incapable of doing it then get one of your IT ex students to do it .(All this is in public domain).
Last year I had to waste 60,000 bucks to get the IIT seat as there was no way to know if the IIST was available as the IIT's conduct their admissions before everyone else and expect to lock and pay fees(non refundable) prior to any other selections(NIT IIST etc) and unfortunately this seat is no longer returned to the pool for say a spot round or something like that due to the IIT's terrible fixation to run the academic program earlier than any other course. Worse still is the private colleges like VITEE etc (Their whole exam is a money making scam) and Parents whose children do well have a tough time when they ahve to give up seats waiting for the CFTI and state boards declare results. It is a well orchestrated scam at least the supreme court put its foot down. Actually if IIST is also included in JOSAA it would be ideal.

One thing is the admission in IIST is unique - you must meet a JEE advanced cut off declared by the Institute but selection is based on the normalized JEE Mains score. This was based on a study done by the IIT's showing that the best predictor of post admission and subsequent performance was related not to the JEE Advanced scores but the JEE Mains and Board scores (ie consistent performance) once you qualified in JEE advanced. That was adopted by IIST as the selection method and according to them this system works. Unfortunately I don't think the IIT's wanted to join the other CFTI's and IIST with its unique admission requirement was not included in the combined admission set up. The supreme court kicked them in the past few months since they did not do it for the academic session in 2014 andput a gun to their head. At least this time they forced it to start.
The ideal thing is for the courts to crack the whips of all state boards to conduct and declare results on fixed dates and the entire allocation process to be done by a single central agency in an open and online manner with display of actual allocation so that any hanky panky can be immediately challenged. This way all seats will be filled up with a clearly logical manner and people can choose what they want.
One thing about the IIST courses is that while superficially similar at initial inspection to the IIT's they are more rigorous and demanding wrt the basics - much more detailed and hands on in actual implementation. They are also clear about culling out those who do not perform since they are paying for everything. It is more of a "postgraduate attitude" place than an undergraduate fun loving place if you get what I mean. Wonderful place if you consider your Subject as a life's hobby/passion than a "job". If it is not one should not join.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Jul 2015 21:26

In the old dins in Ulan Bator, the Orientation consisted of the new herd being told in so many words:

Look 2 ur left, look to ur right: Only 1 of u 3 will graduate.

The reality was that 180 freshmen == 100 graduates after 4 or 5 years.

Now that would be unthinkable. Ppl are told about 95% Freshman Retention Rates (Retention means people staying in school, not in same grade as it means in India) etc. But the reality is still not very different. U don't make a C or better in every Math and Physics class, u don't take the follow-on courses. Ur CGPA stays <2 on a scale of 4 for 1 semester, u r on Warning. 2 semesters, u r on Probation. 3 and u r out. Applies THROUGHOUT the curriculum, so it is a lot smarter to exit at the end of 2 semesters rather than 7.
Present reality is more like 250 freshmen == 150 grads.
It's just they now count ppl changing to Management and International Affairs and Architecture as still 'retained'.

Strange to hear "CalTech" and "non-flunk-out" mentioned in the same forum. The 'culture' or what passes for that at JPL was summed up by the Project Director of the first Mars Mission:

The first successful landing on Mars is not going to be achieved by a team that tolerates dummies.

He wasn't kidding - it was his own panic showing. Because their culture is also that if a mission fails FOR WHATEVER REASON, the Project Director is fired. The time to call a halt because of excuses is before launch.

The REAL trouble with Indian education is the Mobile Phone. The brats are not cutting their umbilicals when they come to college. And today's parents are just ****ing corrupt.

There should be a firm rule that says Parents Are Banned From Campus Except On Graduation Day (and that is the day that they should be most banned, actually

). Without that there can be no aspiring to world class unless the whole world becomes filled with dummies.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Jul 2015 21:27

gakakkad wrote:Parents are being stupid...A 3 years job experience at ISRO would be a crown jewel of any resume ... Companies anywhere in the world would hire the guy without giving a second thought ... I don't see why boeing or lockheed or spacex would not want to hire such a person...In fact they ll fall over each other for such a person...

For jobs in private aerospace and national labs like NASA? May be, but it does not add all that much if one wants to get into top aero departments for research. Same with people with doctorates and a few years of experience at Isro and want to get TT position in one of the top places in aero like Georgia tech., Purdue, cal tech, MIT etc. even US national labs experience is not valued that highly as opposed to post docs at the top places for TT. Probably TT and tenure evaluations at the best places in their respective fields are the toughest evaluations one can face in life bar none - not Jee, not IAS/IFS, not CA, nothing.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 21:31

gakakkad wrote:Parents are being stupid...A 3 years job experience at ISRO would be a crown jewel of any resume ... Companies anywhere in the world would hire the guy without giving a second thought ... I don't see why boeing or lockheed or spacex would not want to hire such a person...In fact they ll fall over each other for such a person...

many of my friends who had worked in ISRO for some time and then went out to be successful entrepreneurs still remember their ISRO days fondly. They say they were really forced to be well grounded in their basics of everything if they wanted to work and UR Rao and Kalam etc were no easy people to satisfy.They say it really helped them subsequently in their careers more than all the teaching in engineering colleges.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 12 Jul 2015 21:34

What is the curriculum of this ISRO space place? As interesting as it sounds, I wonder if their degree is accredited as a 4-year B.Tech level, or is it a 2-year technician level? In India, hands-on experimentation is sneered-at, so I wonder about this. Isn't this place a glorified "ITI", as used in India? I may value their graduates, because they actually can build things and get stuff done, but without the Calculus and Physics and Dynamics and Materials and Languages, there is no long-term hope, which is why accreditation matters. IOW, no math, no abstract stuff, no future in technology as in technology development, not being a technician. Move to Mgmt.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 12 Jul 2015 21:38

UB guru makes a great point as usual and in a ironic tone which is also usual. I see that children are pampered lot more than when we were their age. This is true everywhere but the Indian parents have taken it to the level of their Chinese counterparts where they have one child policy leading to 1 + 2 + 4 weirdness.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Jul 2015 21:38

Batori mahasaya...

Did you or anyone try the GYAN program? Any feedback, if yes?

GYAN is the new initiative by Modi Sarkar so faculty & researchers from outside India can come to India and give courses in Indian Institutes. A 12hr course would get them $4k fee & 24hr course up to $8k fee and so on...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 22:00

@prasannasimha I can understand the litany of woes of counseling. There is less of an issue now with JoSAA as one has to lock the choices and forfeit if not reporting for verification and no further counseling. IIST conducting its own counseling was not needed though. IIT Board wants to retain its exclusivity so they insist for JEE-Adv just like there used to be Advnace paper for aspirants of IAS in an era gone by. Anyway it is fine as ward is assured of one seat. So there is less pressure on aspirants and parents when they visit IIST counseling and they can really opt for it if they have interest in it. Most of the questions were job and higher studies related. It was a good experience except for the hassle of physical presence. Many people from far off places, poor ones too, had come there. Incidentally it was Delhi and Kolkata centres which were full, Hyd, chennai and Trv had less attendance.

@UlanBatori There is one issue though. Here through JEE we take heterogeneous group in terms of knowledge level, intelligence etc. As you know 50% is meant for deprived classes so we have cut off as low as 44 and in specific cases it is -25, -21 and -11. So some would be there who would flunk IIT/NIT altogether. They could just attend and submit a blank answer sheet and they would be included in the list, all expenses paid.

To get into JEE ADV list you have to get as low as 12.25 % (6.125% in some case)marks in aggregate and 3.5%(1.75%) in subjects.

So rest assured those 73 would be only from privileged class and once IITR Director is suitably chastised, these boys would be given second chance or he would be answering National Commission for SC/ST till his service life and would regret it for remainder of his life.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 22:00

UlanBatori wrote:What is the curriculum of this ISRO space place? As interesting as it sounds, I wonder if their degree is accredited as a 4-year B.Tech level, or is it a 2-year technician level? In India, hands-on experimentation is sneered-at, so I wonder about this. Isn't this place a glorified "ITI", as used in India? I may value their graduates, because they actually can build things and get stuff done, but without the Calculus and Physics and Dynamics and Materials and Languages, there is no long-term hope, which is why accreditation matters. IOW, no math, no abstract stuff, no future in technology as in technology development, not being a technician. Move to Mgmt.

No it is not technician level and is an accredited BTech degree -IIST is a deemed University set up by an act of Parliament just like the IIT's(they also have MTech/MS and PhD programs)- as I mentioned the course curriculum was reviewed by GALCIT and Ecole polytechnique and Texas University (They are students already involved in exchange programs between these institutes and those centers want to send students over here for internships/exchange programs too - there are negotiations going on- and there is a very high stress on basics and the course requirement wrt basic physics chemistry and maths is at a much higher level than the IIT's while being superficially similar- they go into a much greater depth there.
To put it in perspective the topper who was sent to do his MS in GALCIT topped the masters in aerospace engineering and did a short internship in JPL thereafter and they tried to get him over there(unique US employment laws are there which would have required him to work as a temp till he became a citizen) but he refused and has come back to work in VSSC. It is heartening to see these boys who join wanting to do something for the nation.

Since a lot of space science involves astronomy physics , maths etc they have a very strong basic science team . You don't just read about Millikan's oil drop experiment - you do it. That's the way it works there.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 22:05

UlanBatori wrote:What is the curriculum of this ISRO space place? As interesting as it sounds, I wonder if their degree is accredited as a 4-year B.Tech level, or is it a 2-year technician level? In India, hands-on experimentation is sneered-at, so I wonder about this. Isn't this place a glorified "ITI", as used in India? I may value their graduates, because they actually can build things and get stuff done, but without the Calculus and Physics and Dynamics and Materials and Languages, there is no long-term hope, which is why accreditation matters. IOW, no math, no abstract stuff, no future in technology as in technology development, not being a technician. Move to Mgmt.

Its better than the best available in India. All theoretical aspects are covered besides some knowledge of computers , softwares etc.This year they have started Engineering Physics and that is why I went there. Hands on practical is stressed upon. It is approved B.Tech 4 year course. With top grade infrastructure, at least in India and access to ISRO facilities.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 22:10

There should be a firm rule that says Parents Are Banned From Campus Except On Graduation Day (and that is the day that they should be most banned, actually ). Without that there can be no aspiring to world class unless the whole world becomes filled with dummies

.

That was sort of the way we were left when we were in medical college.

Actually in IIST on day 1 you enter to sign the bond (They want your signature

) and as parents you can see the hostel on day two (outside the hostel) door and no parent can enter the campus on day 3 thereafter and one parent can come for graduation day! That's it.
Since it is a DOS related organization they have extremely high security etc etc and no one gets in easily huge security details for the campus and for the "significant" teachers especially after Nambi Narayanan. Some teachers of national importance have armed guard escorts

and commando's around the classroom doors and windows during their classes

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 12 Jul 2015 22:27

This year they have started Engineering Physics and that is why I went there.

Actually they always had the engineering physics degree.The change made to entice more students was that what was originally called as "B Tech in Earth and Physical sciences" has been changed to Engineering Physics and has been made into a 5 year Dual degree (BTech/MTech).
The other courses are BTech in Aerospace engineering which is a natural extension of Mechanical engineering and BTech Avionics which is a natural extension of Electrical/Electronics

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jul 2015 23:14

Award winning entry from India

Eeksaurus has won the Annecy Cristal Award in the Commissioned Film category for the video titled "Fateline" for Rotary International. -

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 13 Jul 2015 03:56

• I declare that I have not been associated (actively or passively) with any unlawful organisation in the past nor I would associate myself with such organizations in future.

What the heck is this? thought police

in 2015! I can understand something like that perhaps just may be circa -1984.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 13 Jul 2015 04:07

csaurabh wrote: Instead of having 5-7 courses per sem, bring it down to 3-4 but do them properly, with more course flexibility and practical emphasis, but also stop academic dishonesty by severe punishment.

6 or 7 per sem is ridiculous. 5 is almost bearable and should be the norm. It separates women from girls (men from boyz). Those who don't maintain can always move out to humanities/Liberal Arts part of LAS/Fine Arts departments. Well, scratch that too as that requires good mastery of English comprehension and critical thinking, not just solving questions from coaching inti question banks 24x7 for four years of 9-12 grades.

negi · Post by **negi** » 13 Jul 2015 15:37

^ 6-7 courses per Sem in India is a norm at least this was the norm in my time , issue was syllabus chaps are hoarders while they want to include new stuff in syllabus they also wish to play safe and not do away with unnecessary junk , God only knows how many ma-behan galis I gave to those who included management and economics and at least 1 soft skill subject per semester in the syllabus. Maslow's theory of needs is for fck's sake basic common sense what the hell was it doing in 4 yr B tech course ? In first semester iirc we had some communication skills or some such nonsense .

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 13 Jul 2015 17:36

UlanBatori wrote:What is the curriculum of this ISRO space place? As interesting as it sounds, I wonder if their degree is accredited as a 4-year B.Tech level, or is it a 2-year technician level? In India, hands-on experimentation is sneered-at, so I wonder about this. Isn't this place a glorified "ITI", as used in India? I may value their graduates, because they actually can build things and get stuff done, but without the Calculus and Physics and Dynamics and Materials and Languages, there is no long-term hope, which is why accreditation matters. IOW, no math, no abstract stuff, no future in technology as in technology development, not being a technician. Move to Mgmt.

full fledged and accredited B.Tech and graduate level MTECH AND PhD...

it looks like a good inst...

curriculum is the usual IIT/Unkil standard...calculus /phys chem and basic engg in first year etc...

http://www.iist.ac.in/academics/curricula

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Jul 2015 19:05

Excellent. Only problem is that they are located way too close to TVM, Center of Excellence In Corruption. Sort-of like the Greece of Kerala.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 13 Jul 2015 20:29

5 courses + 2 practical’s was the normal in my day. I think it is still that way. The real problem as I saw is the interminable droning that went on. We had 2-3 hour lectures morning and evening. And all the energy would drain out of the students by 2 PM. There was one library session per week and since the library closed 5 pm that was it. Folks like me who read technical journals for enjoyment were frozen out.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Jul 2015 20:31

Even by the demanding standards of elite schools, California Institute of Technology is tough. Exhibit A: The bottom 25% of recently admitted students scored about 1500 on their SATs—higher than at Harvard, MIT, or Stanford. Freshmen take their first-year courses pass-fail to ease into the school, but after that, professors are notoriously hard graders. No easy A’s here.

Along with the challenging workload comes great research opportunities, a hallmark of the school. Internships at NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, located near Caltech’s Pasadena campus, are a prime example. The result: Caltech is one of the nation’s top producers of science and engineering Ph.D.s, according to the National Science Foundation. The school also boasts 33 Nobel laureates among its alumni and faculty members. And Techies tend to go on to great jobs, reporting salaries that average more than $72,3000 within five years of getting their degree.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/money-s-b ... 52872.html

Had never heard of that bolded part anywhere else now with the Roorkee story almost similar. But then CalTech produces Nobel laureates too, not just hire faculty who have won the prize compared to our selective institutes.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 13 Jul 2015 20:35

UlanBatori wrote:Excellent. Only problem is that they are located way too close to TVM, Center of Excellence In Corruption. Sort-of like the Greece of Kerala.

But saar, this is a central govt institute, nothing to do with Kerala corruption...in any case nothing can be as notorious as Vyapam, which no one wants to address as it is egg on the political face...had it come to attention during UPA regime, there would have been even more colorful posts in the forum.

member_28108 · Post by **member_28108** » 13 Jul 2015 20:44

UlanBatori wrote:Excellent. Only problem is that they are located way too close to TVM, Center of Excellence In Corruption. Sort-of like the Greece of Kerala.

Its got nothing to do with the Kerala Govt .It is run by ISRO and the Department of Space and is a Deemed University set up by an act of perliament like how the IIT's were set up.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Jul 2015 21:13

To get over the "My brat should get more salary"

(which is quite legitimate, I am all for it) they might consider expanding intake, with a lot of "Rich Brat" quota: BYOM - Bring Your Own Money, and charge REALLY hefty fees - on par with, Whirled Taap Ranking universities. That might give an appreciation of the value of the education being imparted in exchange for the 3-year work@ISRO deal. Maybe IIT JEE taap rankers might get funding from Re-Lie-Antz to pay for that, who cares? Equivalent of $80K per year, same as what Stanford MBA charges.

Each such brat would fund a very good Research project per year. Win-win! BUT.. grading same for all, whether funded personally or by guvrmand. Same kick-out criterion as well.

All told, their starting pay is dismal for people with such skills and education as advertised here. That shows the general sh1t-headed attitude of Indian Government towards the best minds and hands in the nation. Won't change unless there is a real war which sees all the Babus going pakistan under their desks. My gentle opinion on that has been discussed previously in MILPhorum.