Indian Space Program Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Sep 2012 13:34

TSJ, it's not just about the equator but the fact that current rockets have to execute dog-leg maneuver in order to miss sri lanka, wasting fuel and payload capability in the process.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Sep 2012 14:11

Rather then building fixed bases in remote place its better to try Sea Launch like option to provide mobility and flexibility of launches

http://www.sea-launch.com/why_sea_launch.htm

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Sep 2012 14:20

TSJones wrote:I'm not sure what you guys are expecting to benefit for having a launch site near the equator? For instance, the US has the cape in florida. It's OK but it is still a long ways from the equator. We're happy with it. Suits us fine

Well, not everyone is happy! Ask these folks Sea Launch. If you want to compete in the market for commercial satellite launches to GTO (4 to 6 tons), you need to be extremely efficient. This will be a commercial business and not a "science project".

The fact is the US launch vehicle industry is uncompetitive (see how the Titan program was shuttered for being uncompetitive cost wise), the Delta program is in similar straits and kept alive by US govt funds, while Lockheed and Boeing go the route of launching using efficient RD-180 lower stages with the Atlas (Lockheed) and Sea Launch /Zenit 3SL (Boeing) for commercial launches.

So really, India needs to elbow into the market with Ariane, Chinese, and Sea Launch and Atlas (the Ex Soviets are really out of the GTO market thanks to their location) .

The PSLV is fine as it is. If need be, we can build another launch pad for it at Thumba/ Kanyakumari/Sri Lanka if there is a commercial case to be made ( that will run smack into competition from Molniya for Polar Sun/Syncrhonous launches) . But for GSLV-MKIII and MK-IV versions need to fight it out with the Arianes and the Sea Launch and Dear Tarrel Than Mountain Biraders, then we need to get a launch pad on the equator. Brazil will be fine since that facility already exists. Infact, the Ukranians want to use Brazil for the Tsiklon launchers. India should either go to Brazil or sign up with Kenya or Indonesia to put up a launch facility to fight it out commercially (going the Sea Launch way is simply not needed) .

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 10 Sep 2012 14:51

would southern Sri lanka also work?

Why not the Vedaranyam coast in TN down south..the land there jutts out into the sea and is closer to equator also. It is in Ramnad Dist and Logistics should not be a problem as it is closer to VSSC also.

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Sep 2012 15:00

geeth wrote:Why not the Vedaranyam coast in TN down south..the land there jutts out into the sea and is closer to equator also. It is in Ramnad Dist and Logistics should not be a problem as it is closer to VSSC also.

Vedranyam is in Nagapatnam dist, just above the tip of Sri Lanka. That is the worst place to do launches to the south!. In TN, you have to go down to Tuticorin /Kanyakumari dist and have a launch facility dedicated to PSLV alone (you cant launch GTO from there, Sri Lanka will be immediately to the east). As a compromise, Sri Harikota is fine, you can launch both to the east and south from there and is as close to the equator you can get in the east coast without going over Sri Lanka.

That is why it makes sense to go to either Korou/Brazil or go to the Malensian /Polynesian islands kind of places and set up a launch facility, you can launch both east and south from those locations over open water.

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Sep 2012 15:21

would southern Sri lanka also work?

If you want to be the ultra cut-price SDRE, asking the Maldivian govt for one of the reasonably sized uninhabited islands to set up a launch facility would be perfect. After all, the Equator passes through Maldives, is very close to India and will possibly be receptive to that sort of thing from India. We can launch both east and south from there.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 10 Sep 2012 16:05

That is the worst place to do launches to the south!

I was talking about GTO launches

After all, the Equator passes through Maldives, is very close to India and will possibly be receptive to that sort of thing from India.

That way, Lakhdives would also be suitable..if we convert one of the islands into a launch station

vina · Post by **vina** » 10 Sep 2012 16:25

That way, Lakhdives would also be suitable..if we convert one of the islands into a launch station

I don't think the folks in Kochi will take kindly to the 1st stage coming crashing on them , not to mention the folks in Madurai further east with the 2nd stage if you launch east from Lakshadweep!

Or for that matter,the folks immediately south at Male' if you launch south.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 10 Sep 2012 16:51

There is enough space to launch the rocket from Lakhdives towards south east without flying over land mass

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 10 Sep 2012 18:13

ISRO should also focus on the PR side of the launches. NASA makes sure that the coverage is IPL like which sends a message to the world and encourages the local students to join the space programs.
They should put a camera next to the exhausts, a camera on the column supporting the rocket, a camera at every stage separation etc.
May be NDTV or some other channel should do a documentary from beginning of the production of rocket to its launch and the significance of the payload etc.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2012 19:18

I tried to download the video, but it would only play on windows media player. thats our level of PR. there are not even high res still photos of most launches. NASA would have a entire multimedia museum hailing its efforts.

we sorely need a onboard camera showing the rocket going off into space and the cool stage separation etc.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 10 Sep 2012 19:38

Talking about PR, whats the best place to travel to for actually seeing the launch with one's own eyes if starting from Bangalore

?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 10 Sep 2012 19:47

I believe people do camp on the mainland near the sriharikota island. the island itself is guarded by marcos, cisf and attack dogs who will shoot/tear apart any intruder first and check id later. a causeway links the island to the mainland.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Sep 2012 20:08

launching from those exotic islands will attract environmental ministry approval. recently to protect the horn-bills, they had stayed the IN's radar installations. not sure, if they ministry is peddled by some chippanda who could pay from his left pocket and tipping everyone on the shaking hand line.

A Nandy · Post by **A Nandy** » 10 Sep 2012 20:09

I hope the causeway is closed !

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 10 Sep 2012 20:26

So we will be having multiple sites for launch of one rocket (PSLV)

Russia had 100 rocket variants and two launch sites...
US too probably two sites.....
What do we want to be first....a space power in the forefront of space technology
or some kind of an organization involved in sending 1-2 tonne payload in SSO for small profit.....

IMHO this discussion would have been truely valid if ISRO would have launched an ULV or Mark 3 yesterday
rather than PSLV.....

and for God sake can they provide a better telecast.....it was boring

someone had suggested once to my request of camera on PSLV that we should focus on
important things....please let me know how would a couple of cameras in the rocket...affect the
mission or the development of GSLV....

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 10 Sep 2012 22:07

Sea Launch has already been through Bankruptcy court. They're not exactly setting the world on fire.

According to Elon Musk, if you can believe his hype, Space X plans on doing all their commercial launches from the US and they are in negotiations to have a space port at the tip of Texas. .......Upon which the Gulf, Zeta and Sinola Mexican cartels want to buy launches for their goods and services.

:->

Elon also claims to have the new Irridium satellite launches under contract.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 11 Sep 2012 00:10

vina wrote:
That way, Lakhdives would also be suitable..if we convert one of the islands into a launch station
I don't think the folks in Kochi will take kindly to the 1st stage coming crashing on them , not to mention the folks in Madurai further east with the 2nd stage if you launch east from Lakshadweep!

Or for that matter,the folks immediately south at Male' if you launch south.

what about the andamans? too heavy to transport ?

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 11 Sep 2012 16:11

For a sunsynchonous LEO orbit it is essential that the descending node has to be a crossing from East to West.

For launch weight advantage from Earth rotation, the Rocket has to be launched from West to East.

Both are conflicting conditions.

So it is but natural that any rocket has to turn around to launch the satellite on equator at a descending node. ( Ceylon or no Ceylon ).
OR
Launch the rocket by loosing Earth rotation advantage in East to West direction.

For Geosync Satellites Shriharikota is ideal because the satellite release is in the same direction as initial launch of rocket.

================
Afterthought correction: Please ignore the remaining portion of this post. It is technically wrong.

One possibility is release the satellite at ascending node which is West to East ... same as rocket launch. BUT for this to happen the launch site has to be in South hemisphere.

Few possible areas are : West coasts of Aus, Argentina, Chille etc.

Who will allow ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2012 18:59

Chile and Peru sure has ample land and frontage. a lot of it is barren windswept desert so no protests from NGOs/farmers if we lease a site.
but the cost of supporting such an op would be high, something which well funded and profitable ones like Ariane can bear but not ISRO with its current budget.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 11 Sep 2012 21:13

Maldives is the solution if there is ever a need in future.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 12 Sep 2012 11:13

^^^ andamans??

Will · Post by **Will** » 12 Sep 2012 12:35

Bade wrote:Maldives is the solution if there is ever a need in future.

Isn't this whole discussion moot?

We are not going to establish Launch pads in other countries in the foreseeable future

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 12 Sep 2012 14:19

Will wrote:
Bade wrote:Maldives is the solution if there is ever a need in future.
Isn't this whole discussion moot? We are not going to establish Launch pads in other countries in the foreseeable future

Correct. We can have this discussion when the third launch pad is ready and ISRO does so many launches that they need more in other countries.

pentaiah · Post by **pentaiah** » 12 Sep 2012 14:27

we are already teamed up Maldives in the Cry O affairs no?

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 15 Sep 2012 23:27

Just a thought and more so because of the ISRO's rocket development speed. How much of it could be attributed to ISRO Boss coming from satellite centre and those from rocket development area.
From the list it seems that most of them are from satellite centre. Does this have any impact on the development of rocket system. Any opinion please ?
I just wish that i am wrong but from the track record we are pretty good in satellite capability but still a long way to go in rocket development

SSSalvi · Post by **SSSalvi** » 16 Sep 2012 15:42

We can't say that Boss' background is important. Madhavan Nair was a hardcore rocket man. Most others are Space physics or satellite geeks.

The rocket that we proudly portray as our workhorse was developed long back and it is only the repeats that we see. GSLV is in development for several years/flights. Still it is not ready.

Rocket is the culmination of several diverse complex technologies, and for each discipline there was/is a specialist with a small team. The same team has developed PSLV so we can't say that they are unable to develop GSLV.

Some say cryo is our weakness. But we had till date a set of proven cryos ( assuming that the supplier has not held back some crucial detail with him ), still GSLV has not been successful.

In the last GSLV launch cryo could not be tried unfortunately. From the statements prior to that flight ( they did not say it in those many words ) but their confidence in the statements before launch showed as if they had found some glitch which was responsible for earlier failures.

I think NEXT flight will succeed with indigenous cryo. A hunch may be...

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 16 Sep 2012 16:11

SSSalvi,

Just off the top of your head. What are the timelines you envisage for the following:

1. The GSLV Mk III's cryogenic engine is ready and flight tested.
2. The GSLV Mk 2 stabilizes to an extent where it can be handed over to the private sector.
3. India begins launching 3-4 ton class satellites on a regular basis on domestic vehicles.

Thanks in advance.

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 16 Sep 2012 16:38

SSSalvi wrote:We can't say that Boss' background is important. Madhavan Nair was a hardcore rocket man. Most others are Space physics or satellite geeks.

The rocket that we proudly portray as our workhorse was developed long back and it is only the repeats that we see. GSLV is in development for several years/flights. Still it is not ready.

Rocket is the culmination of several diverse complex technologies, and for each discipline there was/is a specialist with a small team. The same team has developed PSLV so we can't say that they are unable to develop GSLV.

Some say cryo is our weakness. But we had till date a set of proven cryos ( assuming that the supplier has not held back some crucial detail with him ), still GSLV has not been successful.

In the last GSLV launch cryo could not be tried unfortunately. From the statements prior to that flight ( they did not say it in those many words ) but their confidence in the statements before launch showed as if they had found some glitch which was responsible for earlier failures.

I think NEXT flight will succeed with indigenous cryo. A hunch may be...

Yes I agree that Madhavan Nair is a hardcore rocket man (and i beleive in the last 30 years he is the only rocket person to head ISRO) and that is the reason during his time there seem to be a push for semi- cryo, manned space flight and so on which seemed to be lacking before him and after him. For the PSLV as far as i remember it was Madhavan Nair who headed the project (please correct me if i am wrong).

We definitely need someone who is passionate for launch vehicle since many of our rocket program are getting delayed for ever

.

No news on semi - cryo (plan in 2008 was for a complete stage in 2014).
Indian cryo have not been successfully tested even once (we are at the end of 2012. Glavkosmos issue and work on Indian cryo stage started on I beleive around 1992)
We are only talking of a sub-orbital flight of Mark 3 in 2013 (Earlier projected date was 2010-11). There has been no news on the ground test of the CE-20 engine

With this rate honestly i don't see GSLV Mk 2 stabilizing around 2016 (if we are very lucky) and Mark 3 around 2019 (on the assumption that we get a lot better understanding on cryo stage with Mk2 )

Oh , I just forgot the topic closest to my heart, a manned flight by ISRO, when ?, most optimistic deadline >= 2023

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Sep 2012 18:51

De-mystifying the PSLV rocket science

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Sep 2012 09:11

A special 'eye' up in the sky to constantly watch over the country - The Hindu

The design for one such special ‘eye’ — called the Geo-Imaging Satellite or GISAT — is taking shape at the Space Applications Centre, Ahmedabad. With a recent approval and Rs. 50-crore allocation this financial year for preliminary work, GISAT should be a reality in a couple of years. The sub-1,000-kg satellite will be put in space by a PSLV rocket.

Real time imagery

Previous remote-sensing satellites sent up by the Indian Space Research Organisation also do the same job. However, they go over from pole to pole at a distance of 600-900 km from the ground, view a particular area for barely ten minutes and do not visit the same place for the next one, three or five days. GISAT, on the other hand, will be fixed in a geo-stationary orbit, always looking over the same region and synchronised to the Earth's 24-hour rotation.

A 2012-13 Budget grants document for the Department of Space describes GISAT as a “multi-spectral, multi-resolution advanced remote sensing satellite.” Its nearly real-time imagery can speed up authorities’ response to calamities and troubles to almost immediately, Mr. Tapan Misra, Deputy Director at SAC’s Microwave Remote Sensors Area, told The Hindu .

A marvel

Its electronically steerable camera can ‘see’ as small as a 60-metre area from its height of 36,000 km. It will be a marvel up there compared to what ISRO’s low-flying Earth observation satellites can do with their fine resolutions of 2 m, 1m and even less than one metre, Mr. Misra, who was here {Bengaluru} for the ISRO-CII-sponsored conference, World Space Biz 2012, said.

“A single early-warning satellite, giving you constant, complete coverage of the country, is unique,” according to Dr. V.Jayaraman, former Director at ISRO’s Hyderabad-based National Remote Sensing Centre. And a world first, he said.

It will be equivalent to putting a Cartosat — another of ISRO’s advanced ‘eyes’ but in the lower sky — at long distance.

It would complement the advanced meteorology and remote-sensing satellite, Insat-3D, due to be launched in December this year, said Dr. Jayaraman, who was earlier Director, Earth Observation, ISRO.

GISAT, Mr. Misra said, will be built on ISRO’s technologies that went into Cartosat and Radar Imaging Satellite (RISAT-1) — “both of which were big technology leaps for the country.”

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 17 Sep 2012 10:00

Yes I agree that Madhavan Nair is a hardcore rocket man

I don't know what exactly is meant by 'hardcore'...but his basic degree is in electrical engineering. Yes, he was head of the PSLV design team. Current chairman is also an electrical engineer.

Obviously, they would be involved in policy decisions as chairmen in the development of cryo/semi cryo engines, but their individual contributions by way of technological input/research towards the development of these engines may not be substantial

member_23694 · Post by **member_23694** » 17 Sep 2012 11:23

geeth wrote:I don't know what exactly is meant by 'hardcore'...but his basic degree is in electrical engineering.

My intention was not related to some one's degree or education background , it was more to do with the priorities one have
when someone is in the position to give direction to an organisation. On this basis I get a feeling that of all the ISRO boss, Mr. Nair was
relatively more focussed towards launch vehicles and new development in that domain (for ex. as i mentioned earlier, semi-cryo and manned mission ). Just imagine if someone 25 years back would have started work on semi-cryo , then probably our launch vehicle capability today would have been quite different.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Sep 2012 09:21

ISRO to launch 58 missions in 5 years.

The Indian Space Research Organisation is gearing up to launch 58 missions in the next five years, informed ISRO Chairman K Radhakrishnan.

In a press conference held here on Monday to discuss ISRO’s future plans, Radhakrishnan said two of the future which missions would be commercial.

“India’s first 50 space missions were achieved in 27 years and the next 50 in 10 years -- between 2002 and 2012. Our aim now is to undertake 58 missions in five years,” he said.

Radhakrishnan said the budget for the current year was `6,700 crore, 36 per cent of which would be allocated for launch vehicles, 55 per cent for communication, remote sensing and navigation satellites and 9 per cent for science missions like Astrosat, Mars Orbiter and Aditya, he added.

He said the missions would include PSLV C20 with Saral satellite, which would be assembled in 20 days at Sri Harikota with the tentative launch date fixed for December 12. GSAT 7 and INSAT 3D, which were communications and meteorology satellites, were almost complete, he added. He said that the launch of Indian IRNSS satellite was planned in early July, 2013, on the PSLV C22.

Referring to the developmental delays in the GSLV D5 indigenous cryogenic engine, Radhakrishnan said ISRO was learning from previous errors and strengthening the fuel booster turbo pump. “There are two more tests with the cryo stage, which will be completed by November. We will have a flight test in January-February, 2013,” he added.

The next five years would also see huge capacity addition in terms of transponders to meet the demand of 156 transponders, mostly from DTH companies. “ISRO will also create a National Database for Emergency Management and focus on other remote sensing databases in order to assist the government in planning,” Radhakrishnan added

Vasu · Post by **Vasu** » 18 Sep 2012 09:51

'Tis a season for snags folks....

GSAT-10 launch delayed as Ariane 5 develops ‘small snag’

The launch of communications satellite GSAT-10 will be delayed by at least seven days, to September 29 from September 22, owing to a “small snag” in the Ariane 5 vehicle at the European launch pad in French Guiana.

“We will get a clear picture on the situation from [the European launch agency] Arianespace on September 19,” ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan said.

GSAT-10, meant to augment the national satellite transponder capacity, carries the C- and Ku-band transponders and the second GAGAN terminal to enhance GPS indicators for local users.

Dr. Radhakrishnan said Arianespace personnel detected a small snag in the upper part of the rocket. One gram of the launcher was unaccounted for, and they were ascertaining whether dust particles of that weight had got inside.

GSAT-10 is set to fly with a European co-passenger, ASTRA-2F, on Ariane-5 ECA.

At 3,400 kg, it is the heaviest satellite the ISRO has built; but the space agency is still fine-tuning its own medium-lift rocket, the GSLV, that can put such a satellite in a geo-synchronous orbit at 36,000 km.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Sep 2012 10:03

WoW how do they account for 1 gram of unaccounted weight in a rocket that would weigh hundred of tons ..they probably have the largest sensitive weighing scale around.

Dust though is serious if it falls on sensitive electronics it can cause a mission failure , I recollect reading one of the earlier ASLV/SLV mission failed because some small dust particle creeped in on guidance chip of the rocket.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 18 Sep 2012 20:29

http://newindianexpress.com/nation/article608907.ece

India's tryst with Mars will begin in November 2013 to explore the red planet's atmosphere and search for life-sustaining elements, a top space official said late on Monday.

"We are scheduling to launch the Mars mission Nov 27, 2013 when the red planet will be closer to the earth for injecting our spacecraft into its elliptical orbit," Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) chairman K Radhakrishnan said.

The Rs 470-crore Mars mission will demonstrate India's capability to send a spacecraft 55 million km away from earth and look for life-sustaining elements 500 km away from the Martian surface.

The Indian space agency plans to use a high-end rocket (PSLV-XL) to launch the 1.4-tonne Martian spacecraft from its Sriharikota spaceport, about 80 km northeast of Chennai, with nine instruments to study various aspects of the red planet.

"The Mars mission will make India join the elite club of five top nations comprising the US, Russia, Europe, China and Japan, with indigenous technology for a 300-day space voyage from the launch date," Radhakrishnan said.

"If we don't go Mars late next year, we may have to wait for another 27 months (two years & three months) to embark on such an ambitious mission when the earth and the red planet will be closer again," the top scientist pointed out.

As the fourth planet from the sun and smallest celestial object in the solar system, Mars is terrestrial with breath-taking valleys, deserts, craters and volcanoes in a thin atmosphere. Named after the Roman god of war, the red planet has many similarities with earth like the rotation period and seasonal cycles.

"As in the case of Chandrayaan-1, we will have to take the spacecraft first into the earth's orbit from 22,000 km to 200,000 km in stages using the propulsion system and fire the rocket's liquid apogee motor to push it into the Martian orbit after cruising about 300 days," Radhakrishnan observed.

In the run-up to the launch, the space agency plans to augment the ground support station such as the deep space network at Bylalu, about 40 km from this tech hub, and rope in other ground stations in the region.

"As there will be a 20-minute communication delay in receiving signals from the Martian orbiter, we need to have high radio frequency system in the spacecraft and adequate protection for the effective functioning of its digital instruments," the chairman noted.

For ensuring to have the launch on the D-day (November 27), the space agency plans to have the entire set-up in place by mid-October 2013.

Rony · Post by **Rony** » 19 Sep 2012 02:54

India aborts a human Moon mission

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Sep 2012 13:43

Mission 100 - TSS in Frontline

nash · Post by **nash** » 21 Sep 2012 17:41

seem like mission mars on schedule :

Hindustan Aeronautics delivers Mars orbiter mission satellite structure to ISRO