Bharat Rakshak

Philip wrote:A simple solution to the Chinee stapled visas.India should staple ALL visas issued to Chinse nationals irrespective of where in China they come from.This way if the PRC imgines that by stapling visas from AP or J&K,they consider the territory to be in dispute,then such an act by India would ensure that the entire territory of China is in dispute,sending up a huge cheer in Taiwan! "Tit for tat" is shoul be our act but grand eunuchs...oops! My apologies to all transvestites and transgenders, grandees like SMK and MMS haven't the "equipment" to leave their "stamp" on such an issue!

network.

How about giving stapled visas to all Chinese that indicates that china is a disputed territory of Taiwan or Vietnam

RamaY wrote:

Philip wrote:A simple solution to the Chinee stapled visas.India should staple ALL visas issued to Chinse nationals irrespective of where in China they come from.This way if the PRC imgines that by stapling visas from AP or J&K,they consider the territory to be in dispute,then such an act by India would ensure that the entire territory of China is in dispute,sending up a huge cheer in Taiwan! "Tit for tat" is shoul be our act but grand eunuchs...oops! My apologies to all transvestites and transgenders, grandees like SMK and MMS haven't the "equipment" to leave their "stamp" on such an issue!

network.

How about giving stapled visas to all Chinese that indicates that china is a disputed territory of Taiwan or Vietnam

A better solution would for the Govt of India to de-recognize Tibet as part of China.

@RamaY, Philip, shivajisisodia ^^^

It is always smarter to use a escalation ladder rather a final parthian shot at the opening.

So:
1. Any Chinese official (below politburo level) who deals with or has visited Tibet in an official capacity, and wants to come to India, should be denied entry on the basis of potential human rights violations

2. Any non-Tibetan who is a resident of Tibet should be denied a visa

3. Any Ethnic Tibetan who wants to visit India should be issued a stapled visa

4. Any Chinese citizen coming to India to work on a project (e.g. Anil Ambani Reliance power project) should have to pay for a business visa and not be allowed in on a 'tourist visa' and income taxes should be withheld on their earnings.

5. Allow Tibetans in India to be more vocal about their aspirations and help them articulate. Bollywood movies about their suffering (replete with romantic chases in the countryside) at the hands of the (Changez) (k) Han would be helpful.

And so on. What we want and need is Chinese Water Torture.

It's not a lack of options. It's a lack of will.

There are many like the US who would love to use 'de-recognition' of Tibet as a tool. Let them.

India can start with adding few questions in the visa application for people from PRC.
- Are you an ethnic Tibetan?
- Are you an ethnic Uighur?
- Are you an ethnic Mongol?

This alone would create enough irritation for PRC authorities without really doing anything.

Jaspreet wrote:How to deal with the problem of stapled visas.
Insert a clause within the passport - "All visa stamps whether stapled or not are deemed to be in the main body of the passport and are considered granting of permission by the foreign government to the nationals of India."

So then whether it is AP or J&K, a visa is a permission by the Chini gobermand to Indian nationals.

True - but the problem with stapled visas is that they can be unstapled and all evidence of having obtained a visa/travelled can ne hidden. Imagine an Indian who wishes to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training. He gets a stapled visa to Beijing and then flies to Pakistan, flies back to Beijing with new papers. He returns to India with his stapled visa and throws away the stapled visa. After that his passport will only show exit and entry markings from and to India and no other record of travel. The Chinese cannot be trusted.

Philip wrote:A simple solution to the Chinee stapled visas.India should staple ALL visas issued to Chinse nationals irrespective of where in China they come from.This way if the PRC imgines that by stapling visas from AP or J&K,they consider the territory to be in dispute,then such an act by India would ensure that the entire territory of China is in dispute,sending up a huge cheer in Taiwan! "Tit for tat" is shoul be our act but grand eunuchs...oops! My apologies to all transvestites and transgenders, grandees like SMK and MMS haven't the "equipment" to leave their "stamp" on such an issue!

Too fast for safety?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... ision.html

Chinese bullet train falls from bridge after collision
Two Chinese bullet trains have collided, causing two carriages to fall 50ft from an elevated line and killing 16 passengeers in the first major accident on the country’s high-speed rail network.

This blog, linked from the mil forum says:
http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/07/japa ... inese.html

According to a "foreign" insurance company, China's high-speed train accident has 259 people dead, 183 injured, and 154 still missing. The numbers are set to increase, according to this insurance company.

The families of the victims continue to protest, and I've wondering about "missing" people. Now I begin to see why the Chinese government hastily doubled the compensation for the victims.

I would have thought that a 300 kmph crash of one train into another would result in more than the 11 or 16 deaths reported by China and this sounds more plausible.

True - but the problem with stapled visas is that they can be unstapled and all evidence of having obtained a visa/travelled can ne hidden. Imagine an Indian who wishes to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training. He gets a stapled visa to Beijing and then flies to Pakistan, flies back to Beijing with new papers. He returns to India with his stapled visa and throws away the stapled visa. After that his passport will only show exit and entry markings from and to India and no other record of travel. The Chinese cannot be trusted.

If that is only problem then it is very easy to solve. Make the immigration guy at the indian airport put a big ugly stamp saying "CHINESE STAPLED VISA" and fill the details. Then the passport will have the details forever just like other visas. No, I dont think this is the real problem though.

Is this so difficult to have a counter answer to the stapled visa?

GoI declares that stapled visa is illegal for entry/exit to/into India. So if you travel out, you can never come back. Advertise this, distribute this flyer outside PRC embassy and decalre a jail term for anyone getting this visa and trying to fly out or sail out. If you do slip out, then no entry.

What is wrong with this solution.

Further more: Always include a Arunachali on official delegations. Then when the visa is not granted (or stapled) the whole team cannot travel and hence the event is cancelled. Let it happen again and again and again. Let PRC know that even the simplest visit is cancelled.

Of course, counter stapled visa to Tibetans, Xinjianese and Mongols is fine. But India cannot do that without first saying that these nations are disputed. In international politics, you have to first create a dispute, then act on the dispute. India has not even disputed Tibet, what to talk of Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang. No b@lls, no gains.

surinder wrote:Is this so difficult to have a counter answer to the stapled visa?

GoI declares that stapled visa is illegal for entry/exit to/into India.

You can not put blanket rule like this. Many of the West Asian visas are add-on papers - similar to stapled visas. Our problem is deliberate provocative discriminating visas to people from different regions of the country. It is not a problem if PRC issues stapled visas to all Indians.

saip wrote:

True - but the problem with stapled visas is that they can be unstapled and all evidence of having obtained a visa/travelled can ne hidden. Imagine an Indian who wishes to travel to Pakistan for terrorist training. He gets a stapled visa to Beijing and then flies to Pakistan, flies back to Beijing with new papers. He returns to India with his stapled visa and throws away the stapled visa. After that his passport will only show exit and entry markings from and to India and no other record of travel. The Chinese cannot be trusted.

If that is only problem then it is very easy to solve. Make the immigration guy at the indian airport put a big ugly stamp saying "CHINESE STAPLED VISA" and fill the details. Then the passport will have the details forever just like other visas. No, I dont think this is the real problem though.

Nice idea - but useless. If a person misuses that route the absence of a valid China visa and a stamp from an Indian official saying "Chinese visa" will cause China to deny that they ever gave a visa and that the Indians are lying. Ultimately there is no easy solution to the irritant of visa stapling. The idea of visa stapling is to make a claim that the person did not travel to China or did not need a visa to travel to China. Only an official Chinese visa can be valid. An Indian stamp to the effect would be allowing China to play its game as it wants it to be played.

One possible solution increases the bureaucratic workload. That is to make the stapled vis an official part of the passport by permanently sticking it on and making a note separately that this has been done. Either way the person who will get harassed is the traveller from Arunachal Pradesh because they can send him bach from China saying that a stuck visa is invalid and has been tampered with - so even this "solution" is faulty.

shyam wrote:You can not put blanket rule like this. Many of the West Asian visas are add-on papers - similar to stapled visas.

Why not?

surinder wrote: GoI declares that stapled visa is illegal for entry/exit to/into India. So if you travel out, you can never come back. Advertise this, distribute this flyer outside PRC embassy and decalre a jail term for anyone getting this visa and trying to fly out or sail out. If you do slip out, then no entry.

That would be like handing Arunachal Pradesh to the Chinese. That is why they are stapling ONLY AP resident visas. Such an act will ensure that Arunachal Pradesh residents do not get treatment equal to other Indian citizens and it allows China to dictate how India treats its citizens.

Further more: Always include a Arunachali on official delegations. Then when the visa is not granted (or stapled) the whole team cannot travel and hence the event is cancelled. Let it happen again and again and again. Let PRC know that even the simplest visit is cancelled.

That is how China treats its citizens and the issue allows China to force India to do things it would not do.

surinder wrote:

shyam wrote:You can not put blanket rule like this. Many of the West Asian visas are add-on papers - similar to stapled visas.

Why not?

We will have huge problem with our people who work in West Asia. I doubt those countries will say that they can change their visa issuing policy because of the feud between Inda and PRC. Rather they would say this is their visa policy and it is upto GoI to decide what to do with their citizens who got their visa.

shiv wrote:

surinder wrote: GoI declares that stapled visa is illegal for entry/exit to/into India. So if you travel out, you can never come back. Advertise this, distribute this flyer outside PRC embassy and decalre a jail term for anyone getting this visa and trying to fly out or sail out. If you do slip out, then no entry.

That would be like handing Arunachal Pradesh to the Chinese.

How?

That is why they are stapling ONLY AP resident visas. Such an act will ensure that Arunachal Pradesh residents do not get treatment equal to other Indian citizens and it allows China to dictate how India treats its citizens.
[\quote]

I think they are also stapling visas of J&K residents. PRC is using the stapling to tackle two issues with one policy: In J&K it wants to fuel the fire and encourage separatism. In AP there is no separatism, the people there hate the PRC with passion. They are following a policy of keeping its visa policy in synch with its territorial claims (to support its claim). In J&K it does not have any claim (outside of Aksai Chin). Same policy, different aim, and different pain point for Indai.

shyam wrote:We will have huge problem with our people who work in West Asia. I doubt those countries will say that they can change their visa issuing policy because of the feud between Inda and PRC. Rather they would say this is their visa policy and it is upto GoI to decide what to do with their citizens who got their visa.

There is nothing to prevent India from having country-specific laws. Laws exsist to make India stronger---India does not exist to make laws stronger.

The British fuelled obedience to laws has ennerved India.

surinder wrote:There is nothing to prevent India from having country-specific laws. Laws exsist to make India stronger.

If India can pass a law that India doesn't accept Chinese stapled visas, that will be great. But, as Shiv pointed out, we will be preventing Arunachal and J&K residents from travelling to China while letting other citizens. Thereby, we will be discriminating some of our own citizens.

If we say that Indian immigration will not allow people with stapled visa to travel, it will fall flat on GoI's face causing more embarassment, rather than a show of strength. Because it affects visas from other countries.

What we can do is to include an AP or J&K resident in all delegation to PRC, and if PRC issues a stapled visa to anyone, the entire visit should be cancelled and the responsibility will be put on PRC. Hence we won't be descriminating our own people.

shyam wrote:If India can pass a law that India doesn't accept Chinese stapled visas, that will be great. But, as Shiv pointed out, we will be preventing Arunachal and J&K residents from travelling to China while letting other citizens. Thereby, we will be discriminating some of our own citizens.

Logical fallacy: it is not *we* who will be discriminating; it is PRC which is doing it.

The right to enter another country is the privelege and prerogative of that nation, not India's. India cannot change it. India can, however, contest it and fight it with all its might. Whether it will do so is anybody's guess.

Rest of India can show solidarity with Arunachalis and J&K residents and say that if our fellow citizens are prevented from travelling to PRC, we will also sever contact. Whether Indians will do so it your guess. It is upto the 1 Billion Indians to stand up to this Ch**tiya "Sun Tzu" giri (Shiv's expression, I loved it!!!)

India can formulate any number of laws with stapled visas---allowing in some cases and not allowing in others. Countries can have ridiculous laws, if they deem it important for them. De-recognize the PRC visa and that makes it illegal to use it. The visa becomes useless overnight. PRC will understand the message.

surinder wrote: I think they are also stapling visas of J&K residents. PRC is using the stapling to tackle two issues with one policy: In J&K it wants to fuel the fire and encourage separatism. In AP there is no separatism, the people there hate the PRC with passion. They are following a policy of keeping its visa policy in synch with its territorial claims (to support its claim). In J&K it does not have any claim (outside of Aksai Chin). Same policy, different aim, and different pain point for Indai.

The only common theme is the Chinis policy that does not recognise J&K and AP as parts of India. In both cases it is an irritant, but that irritant should not provoke India into forcing its own citizens into a more difficult situation than they are being put into by Beijing. Beijing is basically playing with those citizens (of JK/AP) and has taken the initiative - it has the lead by making the first move. If India adds to the unhappiness of those people China can play it by blaming India.

Whatever India does on this issue should not make it more difficult for a mango traveller who is merely travelling for tourism or business. Any draconian restrictions on the people who get stapled visas would amount to exactly that - adding injury of punishment (by India) to the insult of a stapled visa from China.

India can retaliate in other ways by randomly rejecting imports as toxic or electronic items as insecure. Both of which allegations are largely true. I am sure we are doing just that. After all what do you say about a country that counts 250 dead in an accident as 16 dead.

X-post:

sum wrote:14 killed as attacks, blasts rock Xinjiang region

At least 10 people were killed and dozens injured following knife-attacks and blasts in China's far-western Silk Road city of Kashgar on Saturday and Sunday, in the latest incidence of violence to hit the frontier Xinjiang region.

The official Xinhua news agency reported four people were also shot dead by police, after an eruption of violence in downtown Kashgar on Sunday afternoon saw “rioters” attack pedestrians and police officers, leaving at least three killed and 10 injured.

Sunday's violence followed a knife attack on Saturday night, which left seven people killed and 28 others injured, according to Xinhua.

Xinhua also reported that a series of explosions, two on Saturday night and another on Sunday, had rocked the city, but left unclear whether there were any casualties. The violence follows a July 21 attack on a police station in Hotan, which left at least 18 people killed. The attack was first blamed by the government on rioters, but later described as “a severely violent terrorism case”.

The government has blamed the unrest on separatist and terrorist groups. Xinjiang has also seen intermittent ethnic unrest between the native Uighur Muslim population and increasing number of migrants of China's majority Han Chinese ethnic group.

Xinhua said Saturday attack had been caused by two “rioters” who had hijacked a truck, stabbing its driver and then “ramming into pedestrians”. The two suspects then “jumped out of the truck and hacked the passers-by”, leaving six people killed and 28 injured. One of the attackers was also killed.

A later report said “two blasts” were heard before the incident at the same location where the truck was hijacked, without saying whether there were further casualties. Xinhua reported another blast was heard on Sunday in downtown Kashgar, with three people, including one police officer, killed.

Kashgar, which lies a few hours' away from border with Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) along the Karakoram Highway, was also the scene of an attack on a police station in August 2008, which left 16 police officers dead.

Beijing has blamed separatist groups, such as the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, of stirring unrest in the city. It has recently announced plans to boost development in Kashgar and other cities in southern Xinjiang, which have lagged the rest of the region.

Poaki IT exports to tallest friend going well!!

X-posting :

China blames Muslim extremists for attack in Xinjiang

"A group of religious extremists led by culprits trained in overseas terrorist camps were behind the weekend attack," a Kashgar government statement said.

An initial police investigation found that the leaders of the group behind the attack had learned about explosives and firearms in Pakistan at a camp of the separatist "East Turkestan Islamic Movement," it said.

---------
Why do the Chinese think that pakis will double cross only the amrikans not the hans ?
9/11 in US brought plenty of dollars and free weapons from US , so pakis may have some similiar designs on China too. They both deserve each other.

surinder wrote: GoI declares that stapled visa is illegal for entry/exit to/into India. So if you travel out, you can never come back. Advertise this, distribute this flyer outside PRC embassy and decalre a jail term for anyone getting this visa and trying to fly out or sail out. If you do slip out, then no entry.

My apologies for saying this, but that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on BRF. If something like this is done it will end up sending shock waves through the Indian expatriate community and change the definition of a "citizen". The important things to remember here is that GoI does not have the power to bar a citizen from re-entering the country. Irrespective of how and why you managed to get out, either with of without valid travel papers (passport, visa, etc), to commit a crime or for legitimate reasons, your entry back into the country is pretty much guaranteed.

Once you have officially been granted entry into the country, it is off course up to GoI to fully investigate and determine if you were up to no good and hence prosecute or put you in jail or send you back to the foreign country where you committed the crime, etc. But rest assured GoI cannot bar entry of citizens back into the country.

Indian citizenship laws used to be based on decent, i.e as long as you are of an Indian decent you pretty much ARE a citizen of India or all intents and purposes irrespective of whether you hold foreign passport. So, you could be an Zambian passport holder (and there are many Indians in Zambia), but still claim Indian citizenship at any port of entry to India and get entry into India as a result.

But, laws have recently changed (last ten years or so), now having an Indian decent does not automatically entitle you to Indian citizenship. However, it is still not that bad, as having an Indian decent automatically entitles you to "Overseas citizenship of India" which in turn entitles you to full citizenship within five years.

Of course, counter stapled visa to Tibetans, Xinjianese and Mongols is fine. But India cannot do that without first saying that these nations are disputed. In international politics, you have to first create a dispute, then act on the dispute. India has not even disputed Tibet, what to talk of Inner Mongolia and Xinjiang. No b@lls, no gains.

The real question that you should be asking is how does Dalai Lama and other Tibetian refugees in India travel abroad. Obviously they don't have a Chinese passport.

Yup Nuk! You got the point,but our great leaders and mandarins of the MEA seem to be lacking that piece of eqpt. and other appurtenent appendages! If we staple visas for ALL PRC citizens regardless of their address in the PRC,it will nullify the PRC's act of stapling visas for AP and J&K Indian citizens.We could also stamp PRC passports that unless the PP is accompanied by the stapled visa,entry into India will be barred for the visitor.This will not look good when a PRC citizen applies to another country for a visa! One could always up the visa fee for visiting PRC citizens to say... $1000 a visit! Special taxes for PRC goods should be enforced.The papers today said that a spat was brewing because PRC made aero-bridges .,1/3rd the price of Europeans,were being held up by babus for security reasons.

Doing nothing against PRC aggro will diminsih the reputation of the nation and none have done so much damage than connstable Singh and his merry men of the UPA.

Our new For.Sec. (one remembers him well when he had more hair on his plate!) needs to gvie serious thougt to this burning issue.He should tell SMK to spend more time with his tailor and let the MEA be run by the ministry,with inputs from other strategic and security experts.

More on the Xinjiang blasts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... veral-dead

China knife attack and explosions leave several dead
Two men knock down and stab pedestrians as blasts are heard, leaving several dead and injured in Xinjiang

Police in China's troubled north-western region of Xinjiang have shot dead four suspects after 11 people died in one or more knife attacks and a possible explosion, according to state media.

Officers have detained another four and are hunting four others following the latest violence, in the Silk Road city of Kashgar.

Blasts were heard shortly before two men knocked down pedestrians with a hijacked truck and stabbed them in an assault late on Saturday, said official news agency Xinhua. It left eight dead – including one of the assailants – and 28 injured.

Three died in a separate incident on Sunday afternoon and 10 were injured, Xinhua reported, with police among the casualties. It said local sources initially blamed a blast, but witnesses said the victims were "hacked to death by rioters".






The deaths come less than two weeks after 18 people died in what Chinese authorities described as an attack on a police station in the region.

It is unclear what caused this weekend's incidents and whether they are related to ongoing ethnic tensions.

Xinjiang has seen several outbreaks of unrest and violence in recent years, with almost 200 people – mostly Han Chinese – killed in ethnic riots in the regional capital of Urumqi two years ago. Beijing has poured huge amounts into security and economic development in the region since then.

Officials blamed the 2009 riots on a small number of separatist terrorists. But many within the large Uyghur Muslim population chafe at religious and cultural restrictions and feel their way of life is being eroded by an influx of Han migrants. Others complain of discrimination from Han bosses and officials.

shiv wrote: That would be like handing Arunachal Pradesh to the Chinese. That is why they are stapling ONLY AP resident visas. Such an act will ensure that Arunachal Pradesh residents do not get treatment equal to other Indian citizens and it allows China to dictate how India treats its citizens.

Stapled Visas is an issue for J&K.

For AP, IIRC, the PRC claims that since AP is a part of PRC Visa is not required, so they don't issue Visa for AP citizens. If they issue any kind of visa (Stapled or other wise) to AP citizens then they in effect concede Indian soverginity on the state.

Some thing they are keen to avoid.

Philip wrote: More on the Xinjiang blasts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/ju ... veral-dead

China knife attack and explosions leave several dead
Two men knock down and stab pedestrians as blasts are heard, leaving several dead and injured in Xinjiang

Police in China's troubled north-western region of Xinjiang have shot dead four suspects after 11 people died in one or more knife attacks and a possible explosion, according to state media.

Officers have detained another four and are hunting four others following the latest violence, in the Silk Road city of Kashgar.

Blasts were heard shortly before two men knocked down pedestrians with a hijacked truck and stabbed them in an assault late on Saturday, said official news agency Xinhua. It left eight dead – including one of the assailants – and 28 injured.

Three died in a separate incident on Sunday afternoon and 10 were injured, Xinhua reported, with police among the casualties. It said local sources initially blamed a blast, but witnesses said the victims were "hacked to death by rioters".

The deaths come less than two weeks after 18 people died in what Chinese authorities described as an attack on a police station in the region.

It is unclear what caused this weekend's incidents and whether they are related to ongoing ethnic tensions.

Xinjiang has seen several outbreaks of unrest and violence in recent years, with almost 200 people – mostly Han Chinese – killed in ethnic riots in the regional capital of Urumqi two years ago. Beijing has poured huge amounts into security and economic development in the region since then.

Officials blamed the 2009 riots on a small number of separatist terrorists. But many within the large Uyghur Muslim population chafe at religious and cultural restrictions and feel their way of life is being eroded by an influx of Han migrants. Others complain of discrimination from Han bosses and officials.

Long live Pakistan China friendship!

x-posted from TROP/TSP dhaga.

A deadly weekend attack in China's restive Xinjiang region was masterminded by "terrorists" trained in Pakistan, the local government said Monday

http://old.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2011080 ... government

Chinese firm signals interest in POK project

Officials from China's biggest State-run hydropower firm on Monday signalled interest in supporting the construction of a major $12 billion dam project in the Gilgit-Baltistan region in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK) . . . China's accelerated involvement in energy and infrastructure projects in PoK has raised concerns in India, with officials telling China last year that the Indian government was concerned about “a pattern of what China was doing” in the region.

China has, over the past year, stepped up its involvement in a number of projects in disputed areas, signing deals to upgrade the Karakoram Highway, build roads and take forward feasibility studies for a railway link from China's western Xinjiang through the Gilgit-Baltistan region.

China's Gezhouba hydropower group has also signed a deal to work on the Neelum Jhelum Hydropower Project, also in PoK.

Reports last year said more than 11,000 troops of the Chinese People's Liberation Army were also stationed in the region, although Chinese officials said their presence was limited to providing humanitarian assistance in flood-affected areas, engineering corps and security assistance to infrastructure projects.

Chinese officials have said their involvement in projects in PoK was “without prejudice” to their long-standing position that the Kashmir issue was for India and Pakistan to resolve.{Deception}

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-14368359

chinese police shoot dead two more suspects.

Beijing's increasing jihadist challenge

Fears are rising in China that the weekend violence in Xinjiang is but the first skirmish in a larger war ahead.

Thirteen months before a missile fired from a Predator drone ended his life, the head of the Turkestan Islamic Party (TIP) videotaped his final testament at his base in Pakistan's troubled North Waziristan.

( yours friendly neighbourhood)

My Muslim brothers in East Turkestan,” said Memtimin Memet in a January 2009 address released on jihadist websites linked to al-Qaeda. “We failed to follow the tenets of our faith, and instead supported our enemies — who enforced communism upon us, raped our women, violated the sanctity of our homes, invaded our land, and stole our wealth.” “Preparing to fight these atheist communists,” a narrator continued, “is an obligation upon every Muslim.”

For China, the killings are troubling news. Ever since 9/11, the TIP, like its sister-organisations targeting central Asia, has struggled to survive in the face of relentless assault by the United States and its allies, But, as the U.S. prepares to pull out of Afghanistan, Pakistan has ever-diminishing incentives to continue with its fitful — and destabilising — war against jihadist bases in North Waziristan. Fears are rising in China, as in much of central Asia, that the weekend violence in Xinjiang is but the first skirmish in a larger war ahead.

so unkil leaving af-pak is troubling to dlagon as unkil is footing the bill and bodybags so far.

For centuries a protectorate of distant emperors in Beijing, Xinjiang became part of modern China in 1949 after decades of violent rebellions and wars.

(in effect an occupied terrritory)

Xingjian's Uighur community is estimated to make up eight to 10 million of the region's 21 million population — a population that includes a welter of ethnic groups, including other Chinese Muslims like the Hui, as well as clusters of Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks and Tajiks.

(%age decline as hans have intruded into the area) Advantage is minorities like tibetans and uighurs have no one child policy in effect as compared to chinese hans in the long term)

But the birth of the modern Islamism in Xinjiang, as opposed to the traditionalist-leaning secessionists, was forged in another crucible: the great anti-Soviet Union jihad that tore Afghanistan apart from 1979. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Uighurs are reputed to have participated in the jihad, returning home empowered with the belief that a superpower could be successfully defeated through insurgent warfare. In 1993, Hasan Mahsum and Abdukadir Yapuquam, both residents of the town of Hotan, founded the ETIM to spearhead this cause. Both men are known to have met Osama bin Laden; their cadre fought alongside the Taliban.

For three reasons, China's intelligence and security services are taking these threats seriously. First, as an increasingly global actor, China has become evermore vulnerable to transnational terrorism.

Second, ETIM and its affiliates are a regional concern — threatening the arc of States to China's west which are crucial to its energy security. The TIP is known to have worked closely with the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, which has waged brutal campaigns in the country of its birth, as well as Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan.

(these countries are poor have rebellious peoples, dictattors with violence is common but energy rich. Oil pipelines run thru these countries into china)

Third, there is the obvious: unlike India, China has succeeded in averting large-scale communal strife, using its rapid economic growth to defuse the ethnic-religious tensions which have, inevitably, arisen in times of momentous change. Events like the 2009 riots, though, drove home the point that terrorism posed a real threat to internal peace within China.

(once economic growth slows down internal dissension will take its own dynamics)

In 2009, Pakistani diplomat Masood Khan had gushing words of praise of his country's relationship with Beijing: it was, he said, “higher than the mountains, deeper than the oceans, sweeter than honey, stronger than steel, all-weather and time-tested.”

Looks like bakistan is needed more than ever .
As they say every bad ass has at least one good virtue, hope bakis prove it is a badass with one good virtue.

Factbox: China's restive Xinjiang region

Critics of Chinese policy in Xinjiang and advocates of Uighur self-rule say that Beijing has exaggerated the influence of terror groups and its tough policies have only deepened Uighur anger by smothering peaceful protest.

Here are some facts about the region.

* Xinjiang, China's largest provincial-level administrative unit by area, covers one sixth of the country. It is relatively sparsely populated with about 20 million people.

* It is home to 8 million Uighurs, a Turkic, largely Islamic people who share linguistic and cultural bonds with Central Asia. Many resent the Han Chinese economic dominance in Xinjiang.

* The northern part of Xinjiang is economically dominated by the "bingtuan," military-run farms and businesses that predominantly employ Han Chinese settlers. In southern Xinjiang, where Uighurs are still the majority, the government said last June that it plans to make the oasis city of Kashgar an economic development zone to speed up growth.

* The Uighur language has been largely phased out of higher education, and Uighurs are limited in their ability to travel independently to Mecca for the annual Haj pilgrimage. In contrast, China's central government has supported Islamic studies and Haj travel for the Hui, a Muslim people culturally akin to the Han.

* Along with Tibet, Xinjiang is one of the most politically sensitive regions in China. In both cases China says its rule has brought economic growth and prosperity.Xinjiang is strategically located at the borders of Russia, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. It has abundant oil reserves and is China's largest natural gas producing region.

* The oasis cities in what is now Xinjiang were conquered by China during the Han dynasty. For the next two millennia, they were variously independent, under Chinese rule, or part of other central Asian kingdoms. The area was briefly an independent East Turkestan in the 1940s and has been ruled by Beijing since the Communist victory in 1949.

Chinese officials seized and sold babies, parents say

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But Yuan Xinquan was caught by surprise one December morning in 2005. Then a new father at the age of 19, Mr. Yuan was holding his 52-day-old daughter at a bus stop when a half-dozen men sprang from a white government van and demanded his marriage certificate.

He did not have one. Both he and his daughter's mother were below the legal age for marriage.

Nor did he have 6,000 renminbi, then about $745, to pay the fine he said they demanded if he wanted to keep his child. He was left with a plastic bag holding her baby clothes and some powdered formula.
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The high-speed rail accident is shaking things up. A whole series of political revolt taking shape - but most interestingly it is the economic "middle class" [some sources estimate that to be 800 million and hence an influential majority holding up the party now] which is revolting.

I am really overjoyed that my political hunch about China not being PRC in 20 years time - is coming through, in just a faint way now. The Beijing News journo's actually decided to put up their morning edition with plenty of "anger" at the gov - on Weibo, after the gov ordered it to censor all such articles. The journo's have done it openly - with senior editorial staff identifying themselves as having taken the lead.

Weibo controllers deleted lots of angry "weets" and they have reappeared by "weeters" angrily promising to put them up back again as soon as they are deleted. The party is hesitant to crackdown - because this is the economic beneficiary class backbone of the party now. With internal factional infighting rife - I guess, the editorial staff got bold with one particular party faction backing them up. The fury seems to be spreading. No Tiananmen now - but in another 8-9 years things should start taking political shape. By 2039-40 - profound regime change likely.

I hope my hunch about Iran works out the same way. Both nations headed the right way - or wrong ways depending on perspective perhaps!

B-ji,

A more open, 'democratic' China is in India's interests? How so? A closed-commie entity that's busy wasting capital on white elephants and environmental damage, provoking resentment & worry among friends and neighbors alike keeps China relatively down.

A more open China will have all their strengths and none of their current weaknesses. Its not as if a democratic china will give up claims to Arunachal much less Tibet or Sinkiang.

I fear a democratic will then amass such a massive lead over Delhi (if they haven't already) in all fields of human endeavor that all hope of catch-up or patch-up will be lost only. JMTs and all that.

Democracies can turn into empires - but when empires become democratic - down the drain they go. It is called mellowing sunset of a golden past. British Sarkaar Raj - became more democratic and whoosh! Russian empire dabbled in democracy - whoosh! CPSU dabbled in democracy - whoosh! Uncle Sam - became increasingly democratic from being landowners' republic turned into an empire - and now going whoosh!

But I have also said before, the first time I projected about both Iran and PRC - that such turns towards democratic reform may actually precipitate problems for India in that narrow time window of actual transition, as there will be a period of struggle when established regimes as well as those seeking to overthrow them will feel the opportunity and the need to project overt-nationalism. [The first to bypass uprising and use national unity slogan to save personal powers - while their opponents to avoid the criticism of being foreign agents].

brihaspati wrote:Democracies can turn into empires - but when empires become democratic - down the drain they go. It is called mellowing sunset of a golden past. British Sarkaar Raj - became more democratic and whoosh! Russian empire dabbled in democracy - whoosh! CPSU dabbled in democracy - whoosh! Uncle Sam - became increasingly democratic from being landowners' republic turned into an empire - and now going whoosh!

Russia is wealthier than it was during the Soviet Empire. The USSR created more fear but we now know it was always a paper tiger. Russians no longer have to wait in line for a loaf of bread like it did during the USSR.

Japan was an empire and it became the world's second largest economy when it became a democracy. Germany was an empire under Bismarck and the Third Reich and it was even wealthier after WWII.

Democracy creates wealth, enormous wealth, in Europe and enormous wealth in the Far East. Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Hong Kong, etc are 20 fold wealthier than the commies in PRC and NoKo.

I rather not take the chance that a democratic China would not develop in the same way as Japan, Taiwan or South Korea. And no, I see no softening of their attitude towards India once they become a democracy. Being fellow democracies does not make Taiwan and Japan invest more in India than in China today. China being a democracy would not make it any less greedy for the land of the former empire.

One more thing not mentioned here is that the US will support a democratic China (or multiple democratic Chinese states if it splits up) just like it did Japan and Taiwan and SoKo. The US sees East Asia as its own region of influence. A democratic China in the US image will be a game changer that will cement US power far into the future.

That will mean that the US and Europe and Japan and the Far East will pour resources and open markets to China in an unprecedented way that will crowd out opportunities for everyone else.

My wife is Chinese-American, I've seen the bias white Americans have towards chinkis. I don't know if it is skin color or their women are simply more comely to white eyes. But gora adopt Chinese and Korean children like their own, eat their food and watch mandarin movies in a way you don't see for even Spanish or French. There is no Spanish equivalent of a "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon." If China ever goes democratic, the US and its allies would open the floodgates to make sure it becomes a Japan times 10. This I have no doubt.

Wishing that China be more democratic just because of some philosophical ideal is foolhardy. In the long term, competition is between civilizations not ideologies. It is far better that the competing civilization is using a less efficient ideology.

^^^By going down the drains - I meant going down of their imperial reach. Democracies foisted upon ex-empires have too many self-absorbing issues - like as you mention - getting richer and wealthier, to really go out and act out imperial fantasies. I don't mind their "wealth" gathering at all. But none of the ex-imperial-current-democracies have been able to revive their empire. Russia in fact could be heading back to a "Soviet" so only time can tell.

All these prosperous democracies are well under thumb of uncle sam. They can't do anything on their own.

^^^ PRC is not becoming a democracy any time soon The 400 million middle class is insufficient to stage a revolt. PRC has show that it can indefinitely kill .

@ Seldon saab China has not surpassed India in any known field of human endeavour. They have done so only on paper. WAS not ussr the topper in olympics then? There is no quality research in Panda university.

By the time PRC becomes a democracy India will have an insurmountable lead over them.

gakakkad wrote:^^^ PRC is not becoming a democracy any time soon The 400 million middle class is insufficient to stage a revolt. PRC has show that it can indefinitely kill .

@ Seldon saab China has not surpassed India in any known field of human endeavour. They have done so only on paper. WAS not ussr the topper in olympics then? There is no quality research in Panda university.

By the time PRC becomes a democracy India will have an insurmountable lead over them.

Its all on paper, kakad, all on paper. Of course India is poor on paper too, kakad. Its all an illusion.

I would venture to say that we already have an insurmountable lead over them.