Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 24 Sep 2011 20:54

US and German - 120 mm Sabot
http://defense-update.com/products/digits/120ke.htm

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Sep 2011 00:13

Has this seen BR pages:

http://www.altair.com.pl/start-4150

Translated version:

Polish tank with India

Indian BEML has signed an agreement with Polish OBRUM to participate in the construction of a light tank - mobile platform next-generation battle.

An agreement was signed yesterday at the exhibition DEFEXPO-2010. According to the President of BEML, VRS Natarajana, the project will be based on a program implemented by OBRUM (Polish XXI century chariot of fire). Indian requirements include the possibility of breakdown in the district suspended the battlefield by helicopter. Tank in the Indian version is to be manufactured by BEML.

OBRUM BEML also has support in other ventures, including construction engineering vehicle based on Arjun tank, renovation and modernization of tanks T-72 and the modernization of BMP-2. Technical security design of the car-based Arjuna is to be coordinated by CVRD (Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment), Chennai, and funded by the Indian defense projects agency, DRDO.

It is worth noting that the DEFEXPO-2010 offer of Indian participation in the modernization of tanks T-72 introduced a U.S. company Raytheon. Indian Party in this project would represent the company Larsen & Toubro. Americans would have to supply electronic components, and L & T would handle the assembly.

BEML also signed an agreement with the Slovak Tanaxem on the construction of armored vehicles for use in anti-terrorist operations and przeciwpartyzanckich. Slovaks are to provide cannon, which will be assembled in India, BEML will produce the fuselage of the vehicle.

During DEFEXPO-2010 BEML has announced the opening of a new plant in Palakkad in Kerala. There will be air launched production industry group. BEML has invested in the company 2.6 billion rupees (about $ 50 million).

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 27 Sep 2011 17:32

What india is interested in from Poland is Anders Light Tank/Fire Support Vehical and Anders as multipurpose platform . which looks quite good . Any further details on how this deal with BEML is progressing ?

Here are more details and pictures of Anders
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5247
Anders Picture 1
Anders Picture 2

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 27 Sep 2011 18:43

According to wiki, it also has a 4-man stick carrying capability. If IA adopts it, will it be an infantry asset or an armored asset? Hopefully it goes to infantry/mountain brigades and be the first step towards pushing combined-arms doctrine down to the unit level.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Sep 2011 19:00

^^^Get them first for the Recce Regiments/Squadrons so sorely missing from the Armored Divisions and (I) Armored brigades. Then, give one Recce & Support battalions to each of the divisions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Sep 2011 20:06

Indian Army has ordered 142 MBT Arjun Mark-II which would be ready for commissioning within a couple of years.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Sep 2011 20:09

SaiK wrote:
Indian Army has ordered 142 MBT Arjun Mark-II which would be ready for commissioning within a couple of years.

That my friend is a typo.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Sep 2011 09:26

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 490635.ece

On development of Mark-II version of the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun, Mr. Saraswat said the tank would be equipped with advance and modified systems such as an integrated gun capable of firing anti-tank missiles and a display system to show several functions to assist the soldier.

“Missile firing capability in Arjun Mark-II will be completely unique. It will be capable of firing laser guided missiles with pin-point accuracy. The missile will be integrated with the MBT and it would be capable of defeating the tank’s armour,” he said.

Arjun Mark-II will have several different capabilities, for example, a different kind of gunner sight and panoramic sight along with an integrated display, which is not there at present, Mr. Saraswat said.

“The integrated display has got multiple functions like target detection, it can see how the missile is going to be located and function for firing different weapons. The display will also show if the tank is moving through an amphibious area,” the DRDO chief said.

On systems to ensure improved performance of soldiers operating the tank, he said, “The internal ergonomics will undergo required changes. All the systems will have to go for a reorientation mode. We have also made some new devices like human cooling system.”

srai · Post by **srai** » 28 Sep 2011 10:31

Austin wrote:What india is interested in from Poland is Anders Light Tank/Fire Support Vehical and Anders as multipurpose platform . which looks quite good . Any further details on how this deal with BEML is progressing ?

Here are more details and pictures of Anders
http://www.altair.com.pl/start-5247
Anders Picture 1
Anders Picture 2

More pics:

Video:

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Sep 2011 11:08

What is the status of the program did we pursue it further ?

member_19805 · Post by **member_19805** » 02 Oct 2011 11:25

rohitvats wrote:
Singha wrote:my hisaab:
55 tanks = 1 regiment (though we allegedly operate some @ 40)
3 regiments = 1 armour div.

so 248 tanks = 4 regiments + 28 reserve/training/protos = 1 armour div + 1 indep armour brigade.

imo 248 more Mk1 should have been ordered, but can Avadi deliver on time for Mk2 to start IOC run in 5 yrs?
I have serious doubts on Avadi production rate...perhaps the 124 order is realistic keeping in mind their shabby record.
45 tanks - One regiment.
2 X Regiments - One Brigade
3 X Brigades - One Armored Division - 6 Armored Regiments in all per Division.

Independent Armored Brigade - 3 X Armored Regiments

Well not quite
45 Tks = 1 Armd Regt is correct
2 Armd Regt + 2 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Bde
3 x Bde's = 6 Armd Regt + 6 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Armd Div
cheers

member_19805 · Post by **member_19805** » 02 Oct 2011 11:28

putnanja wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The numbers ordered (124) factors 17 tanks extra per regiment as reserves. Each Armored Regiment has 45 tanks. And an Armored Division has 6 Armored Regiments - that makes it 270 tanks. What IA has ordered is tanks for 4 Armored Regiments. My guess is that they'll convert the 140 (I) Armored Brigade into Arjun Brigade. It already has the 75th Armored Regiment - balance two can have these new tanks. Makes sense from logistics perspective. That leaves one extra Arjun Regiment.
What tanks does the other regiments of the 140(I) brigade operate? T-72s?

I think you are refering to 14 (I) Armd Bde

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Oct 2011 19:59

Kiki wrote:
rohitvats wrote:

45 tanks - One regiment.
2 X Regiments - One Brigade
3 X Brigades - One Armored Division - 6 Armored Regiments in all per Division.

Independent Armored Brigade - 3 X Armored Regiments
Well not quite
45 Tks = 1 Armd Regt is correct
2 Armd Regt + 2 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Bde
3 x Bde's = 6 Armd Regt + 6 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Armd Div
cheers

Dude,

Only one bde in an armored division has 2+2 structure; others have 2+1 structure. So, it is 6xarmored regiment and 4xmechanized infantry battalions.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Oct 2011 20:00

Kiki wrote:
putnanja wrote: <SNIP>

What tanks does the other regiments of the 140(I) brigade operate? T-72s?
I think you are refering to 14 (I) Armd Bde

Nope, he is refering to 140 Armored Bde of 12 RAPID which I had wrongly identified as an (I) Armored Bde.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Oct 2011 02:46

Austin wrote:What is the status of the program did we pursue it further ?

FYI:

Feb, 2010 :: BEML to work on futuristic ultra light tanks

There are more current articles, but they all seem to echo this one.

Supposedly the pics that have been posted are the Polish model - those are proto-types - final product expected out in 2012/13. The Indian one would be "different" (have no clue what that means), and would be manufactured in India. Again the chatter is that India will deal with the body and get the turret + gun from Poland. Indian model out after the Polish one is out, so post 2013. Supposedly.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 03 Oct 2011 03:15

The only work that BEML will do is tightening the screws and applying paint.

Plus it would be better if the winner of FICV is modified for a 120mm gun like what was done with CV90. This would increase commonality and reduce logistical load.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Oct 2011 03:23

just like BEML "manufactures" TATRA trucks

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 03 Oct 2011 08:46

gentle abduls of brf...

a humble question onlee

few days back there was a pic posted in the mil photos phorum of an upgraded IA? bmpII.

Cant access the sight right now...do we have any word on the status of the upgrade as in has it already started?

thanks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Oct 2011 09:43

120mm gun is overkill for a ICV except if its meant for wheeled standoff fire support role. a 20 or 30mm cannon with lots more rounds sounds far more useful jmho.

nice work by the Poles - hope it works out well for all. we can likely use the 120mm tank version as the light tank needed by our mountain divisions.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Oct 2011 22:38

Arjun Mark II to go for second trial

CHENNAI: The Army will be watching closely as an updated version of its Main Battle Tank Arjun, which has incorporated 59 improvements, goes for a crucial trial in the next three months.

The Mark-II version, being developed at Combat Vehicles Research & Development Establishment (CVRDE), will go for a crucial trial in the next three months, DRDO sources said.

"We have incorporated 56 of the total 89 improvements recommended in Arjun Mark II after the last test in Pokhran in Rajasthan. We are hopeful of the next test which is scheduled in December this year or January next year," they said.

The testing would also include firing of Lahat missile, having a range of six kms.

After clearing the test, Mark II will have to face final integrated testing by Army in June 2012.

Some of the major improvements include changes in the commander's panoramic sight with eye safe LRF, night vision, driver's uncooled thermal image, digital control harness, new final drive for increased weight, new track and sprocket.

"Once Arjun Mark II comes out successfully through the integrated testing in June next year, the production of the latest version of Arjun tanks will start in Heavy Vehicles Factory," the sources added.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Oct 2011 00:20

It will go in for a II, III, IV........V, VI and so on tests. Then we will work on Mark III!

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 04 Oct 2011 05:46

Singha wrote:120mm gun is overkill for a ICV except if its meant for wheeled standoff fire support role. a 20 or 30mm cannon with lots more rounds sounds far more useful jmho.

nice work by the Poles - hope it works out well for all. we can likely use the 120mm tank version as the light tank needed by our mountain divisions.

The polish light tank also seems to be based on an ICV (would be a colossal waste of space if it isn't as engine is at the front).

If you put a 120 mm turret on a ICV along with uprated engine and some slap on armor, it becomes a light tank.

So again, instead of going for a entirely different platform, it will be prudent to fit a turret onto FICV chassis. Hopefully the designers are taking this into consideration as Light tank territory is also very appealing and showcasing inherent capability of the chassis to sustain a 120 mm gun should give any entrant an edge over others when the winner is decided.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Oct 2011 08:19

"We have incorporated 56 of the total 89 improvements recommended in Arjun Mark II after the last test in Pokhran in Rajasthan. We are hopeful of the next test which is scheduled in December this year or January next year," they said.

IA suggested 89 changes after the 1st test?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 04 Oct 2011 08:39

Most must be minor issues.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Oct 2011 09:20

I am amazed by the fact that no changes are ever recommended by the IA in buying maal from the imported market. i.e We will not buy the maal if it dose not do XYZ. While the home grown product has to endure agni pariksha after agni parkisha and is still not good enough for the IA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2011 09:45

we need to see a list of these changes before commenting. many could be easy/already proven earlier (like lahat missile firing, BMS, extra armour etc). 33 changes look new (89-56) but again could be relatively minor changes that however need manufacturing new parts or integration of new systems hence the time needed.

I do hope they provide for a CITV this time, every western heavy has a citv and its just matter of time before china equips her running dogs with such kit.

the question of what to do about the engine remains....is the Cummins project going to deliver a product soon for trials?

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Oct 2011 10:11

Meanwhile, more farce at the zoo:
Blacklist effect: Tank ammo at critical low levels, MoD waives policy to buy

The Army has officially conveyed to the government that its war reserves for certain ammunition have fallen below critical levels. This has led the Defence Ministry to kickstart emergency procurement in some cases by exempting them from the offsets policy. This policy requires that in any purchase of over Rs 300 crore, the company or firm involved must re-invest 30 per cent back in India.

The instant case is that of tank ammunition called the Armoured Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS). The Army is learnt to have put it down in writing that it needs about 66,000 APFSDS rounds as an “immediate operational necessity”. Similar is the problem with ammunition for the Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher systems.

The APFSDS is vital for the Armoured Corps to take down enemy tanks in a tank-to-tank battle. India had a long-term arrangement with Israel for the ammunition but with Israel Military Industries (IMI) now blacklisted — facing a CBI probe — the Army has had to scout for fresh suppliers.

Even the IMI is blacklisted?

A Russian entity is said to have come forward but has quoted a price that is roughly 400 per cent higher than usual taking the cost beyond Rs1000 crore. This high quote had the Defence Acquisition Committee in a spot since the Russian firm is said to have been unwilling to accept the offset policy’s 30 per cent condition.

Result: the government last week exempted the deal from the offsets policy.

Our Russian friends to the rescue...

Meanwhile, in a similar case, the government has decided to float tenders to urgently import Bi-Modular Charge (BMC) systems. Without this charge in their ammunition, the upgraded 130-mm artillery guns can only fire a range of 18 to 23 km, which is half their range of 38-40 km. The BMC systems were to be made in the new Nalanda Ordnance Factory, but that has failed to take off because IMI and South African technology partner Somtech, a subsidiary of Denel, are in the blacklist.

Basically, the entire Indian arty story is a monumental ****-up of the highest order which might never recover from all the BS of these years...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Oct 2011 10:48

I was under the impression the the OFB manufactured Tank Ammo, which in turn was developed by the DRDO. But reading the article, it seems that I was misinformed.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Oct 2011 10:51

the mystery is why no russian entity has ever got blacklisted. IMI, denel, Stkinetics have all made the honour roll already.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 04 Oct 2011 10:57

sum wrote:Meanwhile, more farce at the zoo:
Blacklist effect: Tank ammo at critical low levels, MoD waives policy to buy

The Army has officially conveyed to the government that its war reserves for certain ammunition have fallen below critical levels. This has led the Defence Ministry to kickstart emergency procurement in some cases by exempting them from the offsets policy. This policy requires that in any purchase of over Rs 300 crore, the company or firm involved must re-invest 30 per cent back in India.

The instant case is that of tank ammunition called the Armoured Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS). The Army is learnt to have put it down in writing that it needs about 66,000 APFSDS rounds as an “immediate operational necessity”. Similar is the problem with ammunition for the Smerch multi-barrel rocket launcher systems.

The APFSDS is vital for the Armoured Corps to take down enemy tanks in a tank-to-tank battle. India had a long-term arrangement with Israel for the ammunition but with Israel Military Industries (IMI) now blacklisted — facing a CBI probe — the Army has had to scout for fresh suppliers.
Even the IMI is blacklisted?

A Russian entity is said to have come forward but has quoted a price that is roughly 400 per cent higher than usual taking the cost beyond Rs1000 crore. This high quote had the Defence Acquisition Committee in a spot since the Russian firm is said to have been unwilling to accept the offset policy’s 30 per cent condition.

Result: the government last week exempted the deal from the offsets policy.
Our Russian friends to the rescue...

Meanwhile, in a similar case, the government has decided to float tenders to urgently import Bi-Modular Charge (BMC) systems. Without this charge in their ammunition, the upgraded 130-mm artillery guns can only fire a range of 18 to 23 km, which is half their range of 38-40 km. The BMC systems were to be made in the new Nalanda Ordnance Factory, but that has failed to take off because IMI and South African technology partner Somtech, a subsidiary of Denel, are in the blacklist.
Basically, the entire Indian arty story is a monumental ****-up of the highest order which might never recover from all the BS of these years...

No it means that the First decisions the UPA took in 2004 was a monumental F*** up which has not been criticized due to control of the media. Till date wild allegations thrown against Geogre Fernandes, Denel or even the Barak deal where a former Naval chief was convicted by national media have been found to be completely false.

We often blame our scientists in DRDO etc, but do we see the behind the scenes bureaucratic delays going on.

Now some politicos and Mod will make a killing from the Higher price.

This could also be a more Chanakaya move by MMS. The Army is forced to tow GOI line on Pakistan and China since they have been defanged by lack of proper artillery and ammunition.

CBI botches up arms kickback case, again

The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) has filed a closure report in one of the most sensational arms kickback cases about three weeks ago, saying it has failed to find proof to back its claims in the FIR filed in 2007.

The report was filed into the allegations of kickbacks paid by an Israeli firm Soltam to Indian arms dealers. Shortly after that Sudhir Choudhrie, one of India's leading arms dealers and an accused in the FIR, returned from his five-year exile to the national Capital.

Details of kickbacks in upgrade of 130 mm field guns to 155 mm also figured in conversation of then Samata Party treasurer R K Jain in the Tehelka tapes. Samata Party leader George Fernandes was then the defence minister.

Choudhrie's name figures in at least another CBI FIR on receiving kickbacks in the purchase of Barak missiles. However, he is not an accused in that case. The agency is also likely to file a closure report in this case.

End of the day everybody is happy, media who kicked up a storm are now keeping quiet with only one newspaper putting this news in the middle pages.

Indian Army is being defanged, Pakis and Aman ki tamasha types are happy.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 04 Oct 2011 11:29

Pratyush wrote:I was under the impression the the OFB manufactured Tank Ammo, which in turn was developed by the DRDO. But reading the article, it seems that I was misinformed.

No you are not misinformed.

According earlier reports, T90 FCS did not accept OFB manufactured rounds. Russia did not give India codes. There was some Jugaad effort to reverse engineer the FCS.

My speculation onlee: Reverse engineering failed and ammo for T90 has to be imported.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 Oct 2011 11:50

^^^

1200 crorers for the 125mm Sabot rounds. What is the price of each shot and in what quantities, would it not be cheaper for the Rounds to be made in India.

But wait the Arjun must under go another round of Agni Pariksha. While 1850 T 90s have to be built by the IA without the ability to make the rounds at home.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 04 Oct 2011 11:50

Anujan wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I was under the impression the the OFB manufactured Tank Ammo, which in turn was developed by the DRDO. But reading the article, it seems that I was misinformed.
No you are not misinformed.

According earlier reports, T90 FCS did not accept OFB manufactured rounds. Russia did not give India codes. There was some Jugaad effort to reverse engineer the FCS.

My speculation onlee: Reverse engineering failed and ammo for T90 has to be imported.

This issue was supposedly fixed?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2011 13:04

Sanku wrote:This issue was supposedly fixed?

I think the OFB manufactured IMI rounds of Mark 1 and Mark 2 types are for the T-72 and not for T-90.

Recent news of India approaching Russia for APFSDS round would indicate they would be using 3BM42 APFSDS projectile for some time to come

Here is something i found on 3BM42 from a translated russian magazine

125-mm 3VBM17 round with 3BM42 APFSDS projectile «Mango» was put into service in 1986. The advanced power projectile is designed to modern updated armored vehicles with combined armor protection. It has complicated structure, which includes solid ballistic and armor-piercing cap, armor-piercing damper and two penetrators made of high-duty tungsten alloy.

The penetrators are fixed in the hull by a steel body made of low-melting- temperature alloy. When it penetrates, the steel body melts and the penetrators move to the penetrating pipe without consuming energy to leave the hull.The sabot is made of V-96C1 alloy with advanced characteristics.

When the projectile was tested the projectile engaged a multilayered armor, which simulates the armor of than cutting-edge tanks: seven- layer armor at an angle of 30 and 60 degrees; three-layer armor at an angle of 65 degrees; steel homogenous armor plate. The tests proved that the 3BM42 APFSDS projectile penetrated the armor which is the same as used in the main battle tanks M1, M1A1 «Abrams» etc. "

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2011 13:05

T-90MS Firepower

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Oct 2011 13:07

India's upgraded Arjun tank set for trials

NEW DELHI, Oct. 6 (UPI) -- The Indian army will test an upgraded version of the indigenous Arjun main battle tank, the Mark II, within three months, defense research officials said.

"We have incorporated 56 of the total 89 improvements recommended in Arjun Mark II after the last test in Pokhran in Rajasthan," an official of the Defense Research and Development Organization said.

"We are hopeful of the next test, which is scheduled in December this year or January next year," the DRDO source said.

The Press Trust of India reported that the trials will include firing of the LAHAT missile, which has a range of 4-5 miles.

The Arjun's 120mm rifled main turret gun can fire the Israeli-made laser-homing anti-tank guided missile LAHAT, first in service in Israel in 1992. It was designed primarily for the Merkava tanks' 105mm and 120mm guns but it can be used by all 105mm and 120mm guns, including some low-recoil, low-weight guns fitted to armored cars.

The Indian army, which has 142 Mark II tanks on order, will put the vehicle through its final trials in June.

"Once Arjun Mark II comes out successfully through the integrated testing in June next year, the production of the latest version of Arjun tanks will start in Heavy Vehicles Factory," the DRDO source said.

The Arjun is made by Heavy Vehicles Factory in the specifically military manufacturing town of Avadi -- an acronym for Armored Vehicles and Ammunition Depot of India. Avadi is a coastal town of around 250,000 and about 15 miles from Chennai on the southeastern tip of India.

The Mark II is being developed by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment and will be in use from 2014.

Some of the major improvements include changes in the commander's panoramic sight to include a laser range finder and night vision capability. A stronger drive train and improved track is being developed to allow for larger weapons and thicker armor plating.

The announcement of final trials for the Mark II come after only months since the Mark I was officially inducted into the army but only after suffering nearly 40 years of delays. The tanks were inducted into the Indian army's 75th Armored Regiment in March.

At the same time, India began the retirement of its Russian T-55 tanks after 40 years of service.

The induction took place at the military base in Jaisalmer in the state of Rajasthan, around 360 miles west of the capital Jaipur, during the 39th anniversary of the creation of the 75th Armored Regiment.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Oct 2011 21:38

^^^ Can't wait to see Arjun Mk-II in IA colors charging thru the desert dunes. Hopefully they complete the tests soon and give a subsequent order for 4-5 regiments of Arjun MK-II. We should also start working on a MK-III with additional bells and whistles, focusing on an improved engine, weight reduction and crew comfort.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 07 Oct 2011 21:39

Does IA have a GSQR for a light tank? Any updates on FICV?

Drishyaman · Post by **Drishyaman** » 07 Oct 2011 22:01

Austin Ji,
No mention of the cummins 1500 HP engine. Is the info about the 1500 HP cummins engine just DDM ?

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 08 Oct 2011 04:23

rohitvats wrote:
Kiki wrote:
Well not quite
45 Tks = 1 Armd Regt is correct
2 Armd Regt + 2 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Bde
3 x Bde's = 6 Armd Regt + 6 Mech Inf Regt = 1 Armd Div
cheers
Dude,

Only one bde in an armored division has 2+2 structure; others have 2+1 structure. So, it is 6xarmored regiment and 4xmechanized infantry battalions.

About how many combat vehicles (IFVs, APCs) are in a mechanized infantry battalion attached to an armoured division?

Also, standalone (independent) armoured brigades include a mech.inf. battalion-size formation, and independent mech.inf. brigades include a battalion/regiment sized tank formation... correct?