J & K news and discussion

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Jan 2011 04:31

Gurus,

I am putting on my journalistic hat. There is none at all, or at best muted coverage both in the TSP media and western media. This puzzles me. Normally, western media will be the first to howl "nuclear flashpoint" at the slightest hint of trouble in Kashmir, and especially if TSP goes into a childish tizzy. What does this mean? has MMS told TSP that they can be rest assured that BJP will stopped, with force of necessary, and hence TSP is silent, and by extension western media?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jan 2011 04:34

munna wrote:Avante Garde performance Rudradevji! The sudden support for Ekta Yatra started by YM took even the seniors by surprise. Even I am surprised being the cynic I am. The "we are socialists" era lasted full 20 years between 1970 to 1990. Let us see how long this "we are crony capitalists" lasts.

I follow every event from the planning stage. I started concentrating on this only after you have put the summary in page 40+. I never had hope and I was very pessimistic and still I am in the pessimistic club.

Radradev - great job and more power to you.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 26 Jan 2011 04:36

CRamS wrote:hence TSP is silent, and by extension western media?

TSP is silent because it has no other option.

western media being silent says that this is an internal issue of india.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jan 2011 04:36

CRamS wrote:Gurus,

I am putting on my journalistic hat. There is none at all, or at best muted coverage both in the TSP media and western media. This puzzles me. Normally, western media will be the first to howl "nuclear flashpoint" at the slightest hint of trouble in Kashmir, and especially if TSP goes into a childish tizzy. What does this mean? has MMS told TSP that they can be rest assured that BJP will stopped, with force of necessary, and hence TSP is silent, and by extension western media?

Their buddy is doing exactly what they want. Why to make noise.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jan 2011 04:38

V_Raman wrote: Several things....

1. diverting attention from 2G scam -- save INC
2. diverting attention from aseemanand -- save BJP

bring awareness on kashmir among the general populace and how important it is to india -- back off on any concessions due to national sentiment -- priceless!

other benefits
OA is more exposed as being a kashmir only figure
Hurriyat becoming more irrelevant due to its irrelevance in all this
pak a mere spectator and not an influence in any of this -- indians control the destiny of kashmir -- significant one

chankian onlee...

in the end, this might be a grand political bargain by both the parties for each others benefit.

I am sorry to say but except "OA is more exposed as being a kashmir only figure" everything else is not correct/not applicable.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 26 Jan 2011 04:44

why? everything is conjecture. yours is as good as mine.

whether MMS agreed with PAK on something or not does not matter to the aam kashmiri. it is important that the aam kashmiri sees pak as having no role anymore in his/her destiny. from that POV, this episode has only reinforced that opinion.

western media not reporting any of this is also important message for the people looking for international validation -- pak/hurriyat

india is not new to whipping up national hysteria and hiding behind it. we have done it before and BR's attribution of chankianness(you are guilty as well) to many seemingly non-chankian events have been proven to be true.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 26 Jan 2011 04:47

"Interlocutors" were the first signs of a change of American policy suddenly under Clinton - about the whole Serbian-Bosnian-Kosovan situation. Overnight the US rechristened the Kosovan Liberation Army which was previously called by them as terrorists - into "freedom fighters". Clinton admin sent in the "interlocutors" as a precursor to complete independence away from Serbian control - and primarily handed over power to Islamists and Islamist mafia in the enclaves.

There are claims from participants from the EU side of EU having "neglected" field reports of the KLA carrying out atrocities on Serbs because the KLA was "helping" NATO. The Sebs were orimarily targets because they would have an ethnic as well as religious affiliation that went against Kosovan and Albanian or Croatian Islamism. Serbs also had great civilizational difficulty with memory of the Ottoman occupation and hence would be most resistant to expansion of Islamism within Europe. Russia too would be incline dto help them.

So USA at one stroke eliminated potential future re-unification of the Slavic territories under Sebs who would be "orthodox". So not good for Roman Catholic, Anglican, and EJ's in general.
The "Orthodox" or "eastern church" is almost seen as pagan by the Anglo-Saxon-Italina christianity, and establishing an Islamist breachhead would be a great check politically as well as religion wise fro potential Russian "spread".

Now transpose this to the J&K. The parallels should be obvious. Interlocutors and their call for azaadi is uncannily close to what happened in Kosovo.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 26 Jan 2011 04:56

the situation comparison is just not under the same parameters brihaspathiji. there is no USAF over the heads to worry about, there was no opposition party worth any salt, no parliament resolution to worry about, no constitutional amendments to worry about, no war-crimes threat to worry about, and
no holbrooke to worry about! finally, no elections to worry about.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jan 2011 04:56

Here is why

V_Raman wrote: Several things....

1. diverting attention from 2G scam -- save INC
You just cant keep saying 2G, 2G. Sustaining a movement beyond a month is impossible. Opposition and Swamy did a pretty good job of keeping it burning for almost 2.5 months. I bet they can't do for next Parl session. There will be compromises and Parl will run.
2. diverting attention from aseemanand -- save BJP
The folks who vote for BJP will vote irrespective of this. So there is no real need for this for BJP.

bring awareness on kashmir among the general populace and how important it is to india -- back off on any concessions due to national sentiment -- priceless!
This is iffy iffy thing. It does not matter for the disco crowds anyway. Rural folks has no time for this. Few states definitely will focus on this. so 50-50

other benefits
OA is more exposed as being a kashmir only figure
This is the best outcome of this. This fellow has too much of unnecessary credibility in the yuppy crowd of India. He stands exposed and naked.

Hurriyat becoming more irrelevant due to its irrelevance in all this
Hurriyat's relevance has no impact. They are relevant as long as Pak and US thinks Kashmir is a contentious issue. There are hafta collectors. Relevance and credibility of these does not matter as they are the weapon of other powers.

pak a mere spectator and not an influence in any of this -- indians control the destiny of kashmir -- significant one
They are enjoying the bungling of India's central government. There is no need for doing anything. You totally got this one wrong

chankian onlee...

in the end, this might be a grand political bargain by both the parties for each others benefit.
Nothing at all. The only significant thing that came is the exposure of MMS as seriously trying to selloff via Track-II stuff. He is not denying them and nor his government functionaries denied.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 26 Jan 2011 05:03

Omar on Twitter

"How come everyone on Twitter critical of my decision to stop the yatra are silent about Nitish Kumar (Bihar Chief Minister) and Sharad Yadav (JD-U president) opposing the yatra’’? Mr Abdullah asked. Abdullah tonight spoke to BJP leader Arun Jaitely and invited party members, who were arrested for trying to enter the state, to attend the Republic Day function either in Jammu or in Srinagar tomorrow. "The State Government will facilitate their participation at either of the venues," he said.

BJP activists in other parts of Jammu region:

Several people gathered at Lakhanpur disapproved of the Government decision saying the Government should have provided full security and protection to the people who wanted to hoist tricolor at Lal Chowk. "They are not going to unfurl the BJP flag. They want to hoist the national flag. Isn’t Kashmir a part of India where the national flag can’t be hoisted’’? they asked while regretting the Government decision to forcibly stop the yatra.

In Jammu, the people were critical of administration’s decision for brutal lathi-charge on the BJP people marching towards Parade Ground. "What would have happened had the BJP workers reached Parade Ground. They were not going to commit any sin?" most of the people observed.

BJP State vice president Pawan Gupta along with over 250 party leaders and workers managed to reach from Udhampur to Samroli on Jammu-Srinagar national highway where there were arrested by police and civil teams headed by SSP Surinder Gupta and Deputy Commissioner Baseer Ahmed Khan. The BJP activists held a massive demonstration at Samroli and tried to force their entry but were arrested.

Reports coming from Reasi said that about 200 party activists were arrested by the police when they tried to take out a rally to proceed towards Srinagar for unfurling the National Tricolor there tomorrow. Over 100 party activists were also arrested at Ramban when they tried to hold a demonstration at Jammu -Srinagar National Highway while 25 protesting BJYM and BJP were arrested at Kishtwar this afternoon. While equal number of the party men from Udhampur who were on their way to Srinagar were arrested at Chinore.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 26 Jan 2011 05:04

Bending to Separatists: Betraying the Tiranga

India’s flag is the pride of the country, symbol of our national sovereignty, our constitution, our freedom. The Tiranga stands for our national self-respect, our valour, dignity, unity, and territorial integrity. The fluttering tricolour is the first and foremost identity of the Indian nation. It is for the Tiranga that our armed and security forces are ever ready to shed their blood to secure India from within and at the borders with their sacrifices and martyrdom.

In 2008, separatists tore down the Indian tricolour during the unrest created by the Hurriyat Conference (a conglomerate of 23 anti-national and separatist organizations), along with the PDP and other politicians from the Valley."De ragda, de ragda, Hindustan (they chanted, vehemently stamping their feet on national flags spread out beneath their feet), jive jive Pakistan." There followed a mad frenzy of slogans and the hoisting of the Pakistani flag.

CRPF was forced to be a mute spectator to disrespect of such magnitude and State DGP Kuldeep Khuda allowed the Pakistani flag to flutter unmolested at Lal Chowk for several hours, atop the very clock tower where the Tiranga fluttered for many years, even as terrorists continued to attack Lal Chowk with grenades and fidayeen attacks.

The state DGP is considered very close to the govt. will do anything required to keep his bosses pleased.

It may be recalled that on 11 Sept. 2010, Mirwaiz Umer Farooq had asked people to march to Lal Chowk from Idgah after Id prayers, which culminated in rioting, violence, burning of Government and security buildings, and the waving of Pakistani flags as his Azadi cacophony continued in Srinagar, leading to a situation best described as instigating and waging war against the State. Yet the Government and State Police Chief looked the other way.

These separatists and anti-nationals are allowed to raise Pakistani flags, yet the Chief Minister and his administration are happy to toe the line of secessionists by not allowing the Indian flag to be unfurled on Republic Day! In fact, Mr Omar Abdullah is even suggesting that there is no nationalist in Kashmir and that not one citizen there wants the Indian flag to be unfurled in Srinagar city!

These statements must be seen in the light the oft-repeated cacophony emanating out of Pakistan: On 26 Sept. 2010, Pakistan Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit claimed the state is not an integral part of India and the issue cannot be resolved within the ambit of the Indian Constitution.

Tallies with what the interlocutors are saying.

The right to hoist a flag at Lal Chowk is every Indians’ right. As Congressman lawyer Abhishek Manu Singhvi said in the Supreme Court in the flag case: Indeed, the very denial of the right to fly the Flag to the Indian citizen - as was the existing status quo for decades after independence - is itself the manifestation of a psychological mindset, a subservience to imperial and colonial notions of governance and a slavish approach to nationhood. Such a denial perpetuates the hiatus between the governors and the governed which is fundamentally antithetical to the very concept of a Republic signified by the emotive and euphoric opening words of our Constitution, ‘We the people of India ...’

manu singhvi ia supreme court lawyer and congress spokesperson. look at his statement and now the congress govt denying the same.

When Prime Minister Manmohan Singh bats for Omar Abdullah on the issue of denial of the right to unfurl the flag at Lal Chowk, he should view himself as another pawn in the agenda of the secessionists and separatists to hit at the umbilical cord that binds Jammu & Kashmir to India. To appease them is to compromise with the nationhood and sovereignty of India.
Prime Minister, this is your litmus test. Pakistan’s ex-foreign minister has said that you had virtually concluded an agreement on Jammu and Kashmir, a sovereign part of our country. Is this true? What was the agreement? And is the obstinate insistence on not flying the flag on 26 Jan. at Lal Chowk a part of this understanding?
Have you - like Dharmaraja Yudhisthira after he gambled away his freedom and that of his brothers in a game of dice - promised to give away that which does not belong to you? Such a pact would be bad in law and morality.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 26 Jan 2011 05:21

This picture needs to be circulated.

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jan 2011 05:40

SwamyG wrote:Just because I hail from TN, I have no right to stop some one from raising an Indian flag say in front of Central Station of Madras.

Sorry to prick your bubble. Actually your "right" is subject to reasonable restrictions. If you land up with 10,000 people and say I want to hoist the flag at Madras Central Station ,the local administration is well within their rights to regulate it, tell you no, you can't do it at Chennai Central and create a massive chaos in such a busy area and hassling all passengers and everyone, and direct you to the hockey stadium nearby to hold your function.

This happens in EVERY country, including USA/UK/ you name it. Apply for a march in US for any reason (there is one for some reason or another in NYC), there will be carefully defined routes, police protection, traffic control, the works.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 05:42

^^ Vina ji, but the state govt cannot deny to hoist the national flag at all would it? What stopping the state govt to let a much smaller group which state govt can adequately manage enter and hoist the flag.

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jan 2011 05:53

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jan 2011 05:54

SwamyG wrote:How so? India does not have a pure Federal system. It is more centralized or unitary form of federalism. The Indian states do not have their own Constitutions. If I not mistaken, in the USA the States have their own Constitution. Yes, OA or others can always find some legalese to stop it. But if I were to go to California and insist that I hoist American flag; nobody will stop me. And this in a country that is more Federal than India.

SwamyG, let us have some perspective here (this is purely a US narrative) . If you as an individual want to fly the US, Confederate, UK, Russian, Isreali, French, Indian , Canadian or whatever flag you want to fly in your yard in the US, you can do it and perfectly well all the time. In fact folks in the US do it ALL the time. I have done it myself! That does not make your back yard Isreali/French/Indian/Russian /whatever.

Suppose you were a party with a history of homophobic baiting and violent attacks and murders against Gays, Lxsbians and Transgenders, and also have an agenda of anti abortion /burning such clinics , because your church and "God" say so, and on July 4th you want to show up at the heavily gay Castro District with a 10,000 strong crowd with blaring loudspeakers and hailers and play out the rants from that go forth from the bully pulpit of your church about "damnation and hellfire" for "sinners", and want to plant the Stars and Stripes right on top of the hill in Castro District and shut down the place for a day ,chances are that the city is not going to let you hold that march if you insist that it is precisely on the doorstep of SF Gay& Lxsbian association and nowhere else "Jhanda wahin pehalayenge" will you fly that flag, and if at all they allow you, you will probably be directed to do it elsewhere.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jan 2011 05:56

This could have happened right at the get go...http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 363722.cms

If the above causes no 'grave consequences' why was the original plan going to? The march has had its effect.

vina · Post by **vina** » 26 Jan 2011 06:03

viv wrote:This could have happened right at the get go...http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 363722.cms

If the above causes no 'grave consequences' why was the original plan going to? The march has had its effect.

Huh! There is an official function and a standing invite to go to the function at the Bakshi stadium at Kashmir! The BJP as significant party in the state of J&K was always welcome and I am sure official invites would have gone out. It is inconceivable otherwise!

There is absolutely no problem if they had done that. The point was all about taking a 15,000 strong crowd ,mobilized from Kanyakumari to Kashmir, go to Lal Chowk and plant a "triumphalist" flag (while milking it all the while for political purposes , and if riots flare up in the wake, all the "better") and insisting "Jhanda Wahin Phelelayenge!" and creating huge law and order problems and long lasting and probably irreversible damage to the nation (all the while claiming you are "nationalist" of course).

I do hope the BJP backs down and Sushma and Jaitley and Kumar go to Jammu or Srinagar in good grace and attend the official flag hoisting with a couple of their sidekicks and the entire thing ends graciously for all concerned.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jan 2011 06:07

vina wrote: Suppose you were a party with a history of homophobic baiting and violent attacks and murders against ...

deleted

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jan 2011 06:14

vina wrote:

If the above causes no 'grave consequences' why was the original plan going to? The march has had its effect.

Huh! There is an official function and a standing invite to go to the function at the Bakshi stadium at Kashmir! The BJP as significant party in the state of J&K was always welcome and I am sure official invites would have gone out. It is inconceivable otherwise!

you mean there is no lal chowk in the above offer? ie.. it is still bait and switch?

In that case no one will back down and should not.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 06:27

vina wrote:
There is absolutely no problem if they had done that. The point was all about taking a 15,000 strong crowd ,mobilized from Kanyakumari to Kashmir, go to Lal Chowk and plant a "triumphalist" flag (while milking it all the while for political purposes , and if riots flare up in the wake, all the "better") and insisting "Jhanda Wahin Phelelayenge!" and creating huge law and order problems and long lasting and probably irreversible damage to the nation (all the while claiming you are "nationalist" of course).

I do hope the BJP backs down and Sushma and Jaitley and Kumar go to Jammu or Srinagar in good grace and attend the official flag hoisting with a couple of their sidekicks and the entire thing ends graciously for all concerned.

Vina ji, I understand you have a very different opinion on this whole saga but why do you need to give adjectives to the national flag. Since BJP is hoisting the national flag does not makes it a "triumphalist" flag. Does the national flag in BJP hands makes it less respectable?

Also if the so called govt is so concerned about law and order then they should not have allowed Paki flag on lal chowk and humiliation of Indian flag at the same place.

Added later, by the way post reported...

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 06:29

vina wrote: USA this and USA that blah blah

Since you have so much admiration for USA and looking India from USA lens:

1. Do you think there will ever be a day where a democratic administration colludes with a democratic state governor to stop a republican rally to hoist USA national flag on July 4th in say a democratic convention? Do you think there will ever be a day where a democratic govt fear minority religious sentiments and decide not to fly the national flag on july 4th on a non-religious buiding?

2. Do you ever think our mr. clean constable MMS stand up against Paki nuke blackmail like Kennedy did during cuban crisis?

3. Do you ever think some yindu-pun-da-mentalist call for a "burn quran day" and get constitutional support to do so and entire might of GOI standing behind him to protect his fundamental rights.

If you don't have answers to this questions, kindly shut up. You are hurting the sentiments of minorities on this forum.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 06:31

Could somebody re post the link to live telecast of Ekta Yatra? TIA

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 06:34

vina wrote: Huh! There is an official function and a standing invite to go to the function at the Bakshi stadium at Kashmir! The BJP as significant party in the state of J&K was always welcome and I am sure official invites would have gone out. It is inconceivable otherwise!

The objective is to fly Indian flag at Lal Chowk not in some galli in Srinagar. This is the place where the separatists removed Indian flag and hoisted Paki flag.

If you cant feel shame in that as an Indian....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 06:35

Vina wrote:Suppose you were a party with a history of homophobic baiting and violent attacks and murders against Gays, Lxsbians and Transgenders, and also have an agenda of anti abortion /burning such clinics , because your church and "God" say so

ROTFL - the analogy shows all that is wrong with our oh Noo Yawk is bettah than Noo Joisey, crowd. Lets see the amount of cognitive dissonance at work here

History of "insert community" baiting & violent attacks here - long history with the congress - sikhs, hindus, muslims all victims at different times - heck, many here would have seen the caliber of the Congress goons in many such cases if they spent their formative & years thereafter in India. Till the regional parties arrived, the congress has had such a divisive and loathsome role, that even the weed parthenium was referred to as congress grass & any movie on indian society would have the obligatory slimeball politician with a Cong cap.

"also have an agenda" - why, long agenda of hatred/ cynical votebank politics & outright violence to pursue their agenda of power- "when a great tree falls, the earth shakes"

"because your church/God say so" - why, when the dynasty says something & power is threatened, anything goes. Out comes "saffron terror", 26/11 RSS ki Saazish, batla house encounter had an issue etc.

The level of cognitive dissonance only goes to show, that all the education and "elite" societal advantages have only ended up creating an elite with a superiority complex which will calmly sip wine & pat each other on their backs while the national edifice burns as long as their prejudices and feelings of moral superiority to the hoipolloi are pandered to. A pink chaddi campaign and claims that the honor of valentines day are being impugned are more important than an issue where serious doubts remain over the behind the scenes politicking over J&K, a state for which countless post-1947 indians have died for (because pre-1947 doesnt cut it for our experts).

At the end of the day, even a small time trader from a tier 2/tier 3 city has more understanding than all our cocktail/drawing room experts when he can make out he is being taken for a con & will do everything to protect/fight for his rights including the idea of India. Even he can figure out what the symbolism of the national flag means and will gladly board a train/go halfway across India braving separatist ire & even administration opposition & possible violence.

In contrast, the cocktail crowd is only too busy point scoring on how their chosen political party is better or even better still, without any trace of irony whatsoever, will busily trot out excuses for a vicious quasi criminal, crony capitalist setup which is dominated by a dynastic elite, which makes the mafia look positively democratic! And in the process the national flag becomes "triumphalist".

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 06:39

Rudradev wrote:the right to assemble peaceably for the purposes of a religious procession is a fait accompli.

What can be deduced from this "answer", such as it is, is that the fundamental rights of all Indian citizens should stand abrogated whenever there is a "tense, surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed."

That is exacly right..None of the fundamental rights are abslute, not in India..There are numerous court judgements to that effect, and a number of laws as well...144 CrPC being a prime example...

Rudradev wrote:This explains the real difference between the BJP and the INC. It is not, as the INC will try to tell you, that BJP is "communal" while INC is "secular". It is that the INC has completely, utterly abdicated its responsibilities to governing the country while feeding itself fat off the public exchequer. Meanwhile, the BJP stands up for the right of the common Indian to express himself, even in the face of "law and order threats" which the government has not only failed, but abdicated its very responsibility to quell.

I find this whole "BJP-isation" of the "flag" quite amusing..As if BJP is this knight in shining armour battling the barbarians at the gate! INC is corrupt, no doubt..But BJP isnt?! Bangaru Laxman, Pramod Mahajan (the original telecom "gamer"), Ranjan Bhatacharya, Yeddiyurappa....Come on...

About the "story of the yatra", something interesting..
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/story ... n/742313/0

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Jan 2011 06:41

Karan M wrote:
Vina wrote:Suppose you were a party with a history of homophobic baiting and violent attacks and murders against Gays, Lxsbians and Transgenders, and also have an agenda of anti abortion /burning such clinics , because your church and "God" say so
.

I heard that the Party is also accused of being associated with Hindus and Hindutva, its natural that they are incapable of doing any good.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 26 Jan 2011 06:43

vina wrote: Sorry to prick your bubble. Actually your "right" is subject to reasonable restrictions. If you land up with 10,000 people and say I want to hoist the flag at Madras Central Station ,the local administration is well within their rights to regulate it, tell you no, you can't do it at Chennai Central and create a massive chaos in such a busy area and hassling all passengers and everyone, and direct you to the hockey stadium nearby to hold your function.

This happens in EVERY country, including USA/UK/ you name it. Apply for a march in US for any reason (there is one for some reason or another in NYC), there will be carefully defined routes, police protection, traffic control, the works.

Another bakwaaaas comparision. Real stinky this time.

OA should have told to BJP that he can only allow 500 or say 50 to flag hoisting and not allow anyone to take the steam out of BJP. Instead he took the line that his Paki-loving brothers Paki sensitivities will be hurt. There is no rampaging crowd. What is his problem to allow Jammu Rally?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 06:46

somnath wrote:I find this whole "BJP-isation" of the "flag" quite amusing..As if BJP is this knight in shining armour battling the barbarians at the gate! INC is corrupt, no doubt..But BJP isnt?! Bangaru Laxman, Pramod Mahajan (the original telecom "gamer"), Ranjan Bhatacharya, Yeddiyurappa....Come on...

Somnath,

It is INC and OA who did this BJP-isation of the "flag". On this board it is vina, viv s, menon s and others ( I think you too are part of it).

If INC and OA did not stop raising the national flag in Lal Chowk in 2010; there is no opportunity for BJP to start this yatra, there wouldn't be any question of "BJPisation of the flag"

If OA welcomed the yatra as an effort to integrate JK state with rest of India (the name of the yatra is Ekta Yatra = March of Unification), then there is no question of "BJPisation of the flag"

If MMS kept his mouth shut like he during all other major issues, OA and his separatist lobby would have come to their senses and smelled the coffee.

So you see where the problem lies? BJP is smart and it bet on MMS and OA's lack of nationalism; and stupids did what stupids do.

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 26 Jan 2011 06:48

Muppalla wrote:
vina wrote: Sorry to prick your bubble. Actually your "right" is subject to reasonable restrictions. If you land up with 10,000 people and say I want to hoist the flag at Madras Central Station ,the local administration is well within their rights to regulate it, tell you no, you can't do it at Chennai Central and create a massive chaos in such a busy area and hassling all passengers and everyone, and direct you to the hockey stadium nearby to hold your function.

This happens in EVERY country, including USA/UK/ you name it. Apply for a march in US for any reason (there is one for some reason or another in NYC), there will be carefully defined routes, police protection, traffic control, the works.

Another bakwaaaas comparision. Real stinky this time.

OA should have told to BJP that he can only allow 500 or say 50 to flag hoisting and not allow anyone to take the steam out of BJP. Instead he took the line that his Paki-loving brothers Paki sensitivities will be hurt. There is no rampaging crowd. What is his problem to allow Jammu Rally?

Exactly! if numbers was an issue that could have been stated right at the begininng and suitable agreement reached.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 06:49

The "BJP"isation of the flag" - what a ridiculous claim, is because the Congress has chosen to abdicate its responsibilities to the nation. If they stood up for whats right & were forthright, instead of waffling about the issue, making a campaign about saffron terror, 26/11 being a RSS/zionist conspiracy (wink/nod/nudge - deniable), all sorts of shady deal making on J&K with contradictory statements galore from different arms .. then nobody would have bothered. Everyone here wants to see a strong, pro-India center, and if the INC wanted to put a flag at Lal Chowk & PC had led the charge, more power to them! And the national flag is not the BJPs or the Congress's, its Indias!
As regards level of corruption, lets not even play coy. The Congress has ruled India for around 90% of its existence. What it has achieved in that period has been nothing short of devastating & a hard call for anyone to ever achieve. Rule number 1 should be to kick all the dynastic politicians out and start exploring their wealth in detail. Heck, the leading dynasty are likely to dwarf many so called industrial houses.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 26 Jan 2011 06:56

There is no "BJP"isation of the flag". Only the Indian national flag can be seen and no BJP flags. It's purely national and nothing to do with the party. Now why is the BJP doing it? Because the Congress or any other political party is not doing it. And above all, they are acting stupid and supporting seperatists and fundamentalist elements.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 06:59

It is nationalization of the back channel hush hush non transparent deals happening on J&K

Self Edited

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 07:00

RamaY wrote:Somnath,

It is INC and OA who did this BJP-isation of the "flag". On this board it is vina, viv s, menon s and others ( I think you too are part of it).

If INC and OA did not stop raising the national flag in Lal Chowk in 2010; there is no opportunity for BJP to start this yatra, there wouldn't be any question of "BJPisation of the flag"

If OA welcomed the yatra as an effort to integrate JK state with rest of India (the name of the yatra is Ekta Yatra = March of Unification), then there is no question of "BJPisation of the flag"

If MMS kept his mouth shut like he during all other major issues, OA and his separatist lobby would have come to their senses and smelled the coffee.

So you see where the problem lies? BJP is smart and it bet on MMS and OA's lack of nationalism; and stupids did what stupids do.

Exactly.

BTW, as the prior reports noted during stone pelting time, apparently INC is in a pretty pickle when it comes to OA - because R-baba likes OA as fellow "youth leader", so even if some INC nationalist greybeards (if such even exist now in that organization after all the filth it has draped itself in re: 26/11 claims & Wikileaks gyan to outsiders) want to do something otherwise, they cant do diddly squat.

The beauty of relying on a dynasty (as versus merit, as versus competence, as versus national aims) to decide ones course. And everyone has to circle their wagons, and squawk and flap their wings in support of OA & co. - yet another dynasty. For all the claims of feeling for Kashmiri Muslims, if anybody actually felt for them (as versus claims of feeling for them), they'd explore how much these dynastic wiffle waffle nationalists (depending on the season/depending on the mood) have looted from the exchequer & how many jobs etc that would have created.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 26 Jan 2011 07:01

http://www.rediff.com/news/column/why-b ... 110125.htm

The Bharatiya Janata Party's decision to hoist the national flag at Lal Chowk in Srinagar [ Images ] on Republic Day has stirred up a hornet's nest forcing the prime minister to issue a strongly worded rebuke, inciting political pundits to pen indignant tirades lambasting the BJP for its reckless adventuring and even prompting a sane security expert to sound a note of caution.

But is this scathing and widespread criticism logically valid? Do these naysayers represent the national ethos? Or is this a hysterical knee jerk response of panicky worthies who would rather maintain a deceptive status quo than take the bull by its horns?

Writing in the Hindustan Times (January 21), Barkha Dutt avers: 'So, while the Ekta Yatra seeks its legitimacy in the cover of 'nationalism', in fact, it is a patently dangerous and destructive political approach that will only tamper with an already-fragile peace in the state. If Jammu and Kashmir erupts into unrest and violent regional conflict as a result of this yatra, won't that be the very opposite of national interest?'

But her very choice of the words 'fragile peace' betrays the vacuousness and futility of her contention. Is a peace that is so brittle that it can be shattered by the drop of a pin worth preserving or sweating over? For it is bound to rupture sooner or later for one reason or another. The separatists are past masters in fabricating reasons for whipping up mass emotions.

We, Indians have a basic mental flaw wherein we shy away from unpleasant confrontation regardless of the merits of our case or the adverse consequences that such inertia engenders. The net result is that we are unable to translate our moral convictions into practical reality allowing law abiding citizens to be held hostage to the tantrums of a belligerent minority.

The most glaring fallout of this pusillanimous approach is the plight of the Kashmiri Pandits. When a quarter million Kashmiri Hindus are driven out of their homes and made to live like refugees in their own country for 20 years, it violates the first and foremost principle of a sovereign democratic country.

And when a government fails to uphold this fundamental tenet, kowtowing to the perpetrators of this heinous crime instead, it forces me to question the very credibility of the Indian State at this juncture; a painful and near blasphemous thought for a proud Indian like me. But that is the harsh reality of current India seen through the eyes of the Kashmiri Pandits.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 07:04

^^^ the reaction of the Omar Abdullah govt to this crisis has been as incompetent as its handling of the various other issues - the Shopian rape affair, the stone pelting...OA is a disaster, no questions...

But for the "nationalist" crowd, it would be pertinent to ask ,why does the "God's own party" tread in with the flag whenever there is political dividend, real and perceived, at play? A lot of us dont remember the Hubli case a few years ago, where a similar "flag waiving" was attempted there...

I mentioned before, BJP is a poltiical party, and has every right to play as much cynical politics as every other party..Lets not wrap them in the flag and bestow a shinier than the white knight veneer on them...

This yatra is politics - and I think its stupid politics as it simply distracts attention from the real issues with UPAII - but it is politics, and nothing else...No nationalism, nothing...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 07:09

Sidhant wrote:It is nationalization of the back channel hush hush non transparent deals happening on J&K

Yup. Whats all this BS about open borders, about "peace parks", enduring legacy etc? What happens when one side (as it always has) exploits these & uses it to push across many more sleeper cells, trained attackers without even having to use the Indo Nepal border or the sea route anymore?

What is the need for back channel talks with a terrorist state that targets common citizens who, unlike our much vaunted political class don't have myriad agencies protecting their valuable backsides.

Take a stand & stick with it, and be transparent. Instead, the Govt of the day has made a virtue out of waffling, or remaining silent & then using national papers/media/interlocutors to carry its water/crazy ideas to an increasingly skeptical public. In the meanwhile it blatantly and fragrantly plays old British style divide and rule, pitting the majority & minority at loggerheads, has a prominent figure support and champion outrageous conspiracy theories & lets a variety of dodgy figures operate with impunity and even elevates them to civil society activists or gives them a say in matters of state. Who, in their right mind, would not look askance at such an administration, irrespective of which political party runs it.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 07:12

Karan M wrote:Yup. Whats all this BS about open borders, about "peace parks", enduring legacy etc?

What is the need for back channel talks with a terrorist state that targets common citizens who, unlike our much vaunted political class don't have myriad agencies protecting their valuable backsides.

Wasnt the ABV govt doing EXACTLY the same things?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 26 Jan 2011 07:14

@Somnath. You'll never understand the ground realities. It's the survival for the Indian nation. It may be politics for people when watched from outside. Politically the flag issue is a real setback for the BJP because it has given the Congress breathing space to escape from the hammering they were getting each and every day for issues from price rice to corruption, loot of the nation. The flag hoisting is really a message that you'll never understand.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Jan 2011 07:16

Guys: for a second, lets put ourselves in the shoes of MMS & his minions including those in the media like Bakara. Now domestically, almost everybody publicly says J&K is part of India, and hence every Indian has a constituional right to hoist the flag. Now MMS is beholden to his masters and buddies in USA/UK, and Rawilpindi. To them he has accepted that J&K is disputed terriroty and hence Indian laws have no sanction in their minds. So basically, he and his minions are caught in a bind. They can't come out in the open and say to a domestic audience that constituional right to flag hositing doesn't exist because of the disputed nature as that would go against India's official position. But de-facto, in "back channel" talks, that is in fact MMS's position, so if he does not act in a way that pleases both sides, he looses whetever credibility he has. So, domestically he can cover his back side by saying flag is being hoisted at Bakshi stadium and so he is upholding India's official position (while preventing the hoisting at Lal Chowk citing bogus issues like BJP's motivation etc), while to his US/UK masters and TSP pals, he can say he prevented "Saffron terrorists" from "desecrating" the Lal Chowk and to that extent is upholding the "disputed" nature of the state pending resolution through joint love making. Makes sense?