Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 May 2010 13:53

This what I've been saying all along that the P-8Is will come only with P-3 Orion systems within! This both for technical reasons (P_8s still not perfected as yet) as well as political,as Pak has been provide with later model equipped P-3s.The US is playing the same game as it has done with Israel and Egypt,selling the same systems to both,though the Israel'is have always been one step ahead of their pro-US rivals who use similar systems in the region.The COAS's warning about FMS is not a day too late despite the GOI having already sold us down the river.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 May 2010 19:17

Philip wrote:This what I've been saying all along that the P-8Is will come only with P-3 Orion systems within! This both for technical reasons (P_8s still not perfected as yet) as well as political,as Pak has been provide with later model equipped P-3s.The US is playing the same game as it has done with Israel and Egypt,selling the same systems to both,though the Israel'is have always been one step ahead of their pro-US rivals who use similar systems in the region.

Rampant confusion. Perhaps too-much-knowledge-lock.

The COAS's warning about FMS is not a day too late despite the GOI having already sold us down the river.

Army denies cautioning Antony on deals with US

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 25 May 2010 20:01

There are two more unfinished Type 971 Schuka class hulls at Komolsk-na-amur where the Nerpa was built. There were 4 unfinished hulls there, one became the nerpa, one hull got converted into a Borei class.
That leaves two hulls still unfinished - and probably no finances with the russians as of now to complete them.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 25 May 2010 20:27

Any news on the Type 214 ordered by Greece. Greece is not likely to pay for them in next 5 years.

Are we smart enough or dumb enough to buy these 3 - 4 submarines on as-is-where-is basis ?

We can have a package deal
1) Buy or lease these 3-4 Type 214 subs originally destined for Greece
2) Buy 6 Type 214 custom made for IN
3) Retrofit T 209 to "T 214" standards

It would be more useful than perhaps a few unfinished Akila which we MAY get after n number of years

K

Portugal too has ordered 2 - 3 submarines and they too are in a economic super mess. So we can get 5 - 7 submarines on cash-and-carry basis.

But only if we smart enough or dumb enough to buy these submarines off the shelf

K

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 26 May 2010 03:24

The truth behind the Navy's 'sinking' of Ghazi

Lt General JFR Jacob, (retd), hero of the 1971 India Pakistan war, explains why the Indian Navy destroyed documents related to the sinking of the Pakistani submarine, PNS Ghazi.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 26 May 2010 14:36

Gagan wrote:There are two more unfinished Type 971 Schuka class hulls at Komolsk-na-amur where the Nerpa was built. There were 4 unfinished hulls there, one became the nerpa, one hull got converted into a Borei class.
That leaves two hulls still unfinished - and probably no finances with the russians as of now to complete them.

There is just one hull left unfinished in K-n-A at around 40% readiness. Two others were scrapped and sold in mid-90s.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2010 17:15

"knowldege lock" fo what? Anyway,back to the P-8.US reports indicate that though the P-8 will arrive as a new platform,there will be little difference between last versions of the Orion sensor/eqpt. wise as the definitive P-8 has yet to fly! In addition,the P-8 cannot drop the std. ASW torpedo because of alt. problems.To overcome this,a newly developed wing kit for the fish to glide into the sea is meant for the P-8.The debate about "low and slow" aircraft being best for prosecuting ASW remains.

The US is trying its best to get India to accept Paki suzerainity over Afghanistan and compromise in J&K so that America is let off the hook in Af-Pak.It has clearly identified Pak as its militayr partner for the region.Pak has asked the US to whittle down India's conventional arms superiority over it,as on the nuclear weapons front, it has made enormous strides both in quality and quantity thanks to the Chinese.Pak fears an Indian "Cold Start" conventional war possibility,due to its continuing sponsorship of cross-border terrorism.The only way the US can gain control over the Indian military is if India uses US weapon systems,which it can neuter by passing on detailed info of the systems to Pak .In addition,if India and Pak are equipped with the same weapon systems,Harpoon missiles,F-16s,etc.,parity as far as quality will have been established as our larger numbers have to be kept on the Chinese border or in reserves.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 May 2010 17:18

"knowldege lock" fo what? Anyway,back to the P-8.US reports indicate that though the P-8 will arrive as a new platform,there will be little difference between last versions of the Orion sensor/eqpt. wise as the definitive P-8 has yet to fly! In addition,the P-8 cannot drop the std. ASW torpedo because of alt. problems.To overcome this,a newly developed wing kit for the fish to glide into the sea is meant for the P-8.The debate about "low and slow" aircraft being best for prosecuting ASW remains.

The US is trying its best to get India to accept Paki suzerainity over Afghanistan and compromise in J&K so that America is let off the hook in Af-Pak.It has clearly identified Pak as its military partner for the region.Pak has asked the US to whittle down India's conventional arms superiority over it,as on the nuclear weapons front, it has made enormous strides both in quality and quantity thanks to the Chinese.Pak fears an Indian "Cold Start" conventional war possibility,due to its continuing sponsorship of cross-border terrorism.The only way the US can gain control over the Indian military is if India uses US weapon systems,which it can neuter by passing on detailed info of the systems to Pak .In addition,if India and Pak are equipped with the same weapon systems,Harpoon missiles,F-16s,etc.,parity as far as quality will have been established as our larger numbers have to be kept on the Chinese border or in reserves.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 26 May 2010 18:38

Indian Navy warships on eastward deployment

To strengthen relations with navies in the east, India has sent four of its warships on eastward deployment for over a month to countries such as Australia, Indonesia, Singapore and Malaysia. "Guided missile destroyers INS Rana and INS Ranjit, fleet tanker INS Jyoti and missile corvette INS Kulish are on eastward deployment. Of these ships, INS Rana arrived in Jakarta Tuesday," Navy officials said Tuesday.

The ships, which left India in the second week of May, will undertake passage exercises with the navies of countries including Indonesia, Australia and Singapore, they added. Along with Jakarta, the ships of Navy's eastern fleet will make port calls at various cities including Hai Phong (Vietnam), Manila (Philippines), Muara (Brunei), Bangkok (Thailand), Fremantle (Australia), Singapore and Port Kelang (Malaysia).

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 26 May 2010 19:06

narmad wrote:The truth behind the Navy's 'sinking' of Ghazi

Lt General JFR Jacob, (retd), hero of the 1971 India Pakistan war, explains why the Indian Navy destroyed documents related to the sinking of the Pakistani submarine, PNS Ghazi.

Personal egos in India are taller than Mt. Everest!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2010 19:30

at that time it was a good thing to pump up the public and demoralize the pakis.

but if the story be true, the truth should have been published a few years later

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2010 19:34

greece and portugal being in the doghouse, their public should skin their leaders alive if it were made known how much these subs purchase and use cost.

"behind the scenes talks" could lead to them reducing their order and letting us muscle in on the production run. but somehow, it makes more sense to run with larger Scorpene for the pvt sub line?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 May 2010 20:14

Singha wrote:at that time it was a good thing to pump up the public and demoralize the pakis.

but if the story be true, the truth should have been published a few years later

there are many rumours about the gazi incident. one relative who was resident of vizag at the time said that the story went that the gazi's presence off vizag was first known by a freak accident, a russian freighter accidentally brushed the sub on its way out and apparently this damaged the gazi and led to a chain of events culminating in the sinking of the sub.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 26 May 2010 20:40

Werent the entry and exit paths to Vizag harbour mined extensively, it is very possible that the Ghazi explosion was a result of one of these mines.

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 May 2010 20:45

Philip wrote:"knowldege lock" fo what? Anyway,back to the P-8.US reports indicate that though the P-8 will arrive as a new platform,there will be little difference between last versions of the Orion sensor/eqpt. wise as the definitive P-8 has yet to fly! In addition,the P-8 cannot drop the std. ASW torpedo because of alt. problems.To overcome this,a newly developed wing kit for the fish to glide into the sea is meant for the P-8.The debate about "low and slow" aircraft being best for prosecuting ASW remains.

The US is trying its best to get India to accept Paki suzerainity over Afghanistan and compromise in J&K so that America is let off the hook in Af-Pak.It has clearly identified Pak as its military partner for the region.Pak has asked the US to whittle down India's conventional arms superiority over it,as on the nuclear weapons front, it has made enormous strides both in quality and quantity thanks to the Chinese.Pak fears an Indian "Cold Start" conventional war possibility,due to its continuing sponsorship of cross-border terrorism.The only way the US can gain control over the Indian military is if India uses US weapon systems,which it can neuter by passing on detailed info of the systems to Pak .In addition,if India and Pak are equipped with the same weapon systems,Harpoon missiles,F-16s,etc.,parity as far as quality will have been established as our larger numbers have to be kept on the Chinese border or in reserves.

Right., that looks like the real deal.Paying top dollar for dumbed down systems., imagine the F18s with dumbed down avionics ! .. the Flankers would be better than that any day ! And imagine a situation where the US can literally halt nearly half the IAF when pakis complain to aunty ! The F18s and 16 s as candidates for MRCA is looking more and more stupid with the american CISMOA et all taking rounds .. one can not help but wonder why american aircraft are even considered for such a deal. Enough for now., lets wait and see.The ones who need to know, know.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 26 May 2010 20:52

suryag wrote:Werent the entry and exit paths to Vizag harbour mined extensively, it is very possible that the Ghazi explosion was a result of one of these mines.

Here is one more rumor.. It is said that Ghazi was trying to lay mines and one of them blew up by mistake!!!

btw.. for visitors, Visakha museum on the beach road has has some retrieved parts of PNS Ghazi on display.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 May 2010 14:21

Good Gen.Jakes has had a chip on his shoulder for some time,remember his crusty comments about Sam and who was the real architect of the race for Dacca? Anyway,the oft repeated story is that a contact had been made,or that after the contact,as a routine measure when leaving harbour,the Rajput had dropped a few depth charges.The Ghazi dived too deep ,or was in the process of laying mines/on the bottom,and either hit the bottom /was hit and exploded.

The hard facts are that the IN did know that the Ghazi would be waiting off Vizag to sink the Vikrant and had taken the neccessary precautions by sending the Vikrant to the A&N islands.The unsuspecting Ghazi fell for the IN's trap,the IN's warships in VIzaag harbour were waiting and whatever may be the actual truth in the manner of her sinking,the IN scored a singular victory.I've discussed this earlier,first person with one in the know at NHQ during '71.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 May 2010 15:45

So its the difference between a forced error and an unforced error? IA says its an unforced error, IN says its a forced one

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2010 19:27

kit wrote:
Philip wrote:"knowldege lock" fo what? Anyway,back to the P-8.US reports indicate that though the P-8 will arrive as a new platform,there will be little difference between last versions of the Orion sensor/eqpt. wise as the definitive P-8 has yet to fly! In addition,the P-8 cannot drop the std. ASW torpedo because of alt. problems.To overcome this,a newly developed wing kit for the fish to glide into the sea is meant for the P-8.The debate about "low and slow" aircraft being best for prosecuting ASW remains.

The US is trying its best to get India to accept Paki suzerainity over Afghanistan and compromise in J&K so that America is let off the hook in Af-Pak.It has clearly identified Pak as its military partner for the region.Pak has asked the US to whittle down India's conventional arms superiority over it,as on the nuclear weapons front, it has made enormous strides both in quality and quantity thanks to the Chinese.Pak fears an Indian "Cold Start" conventional war possibility,due to its continuing sponsorship of cross-border terrorism.The only way the US can gain control over the Indian military is if India uses US weapon systems,which it can neuter by passing on detailed info of the systems to Pak .In addition,if India and Pak are equipped with the same weapon systems,Harpoon missiles,F-16s,etc.,parity as far as quality will have been established as our larger numbers have to be kept on the Chinese border or in reserves.
Right., that looks like the real deal.Paying top dollar for dumbed down systems., imagine the F18s with dumbed down avionics ! .. the Flankers would be better than that any day ! And imagine a situation where the US can literally halt nearly half the IAF when pakis complain to aunty ! The F18s and 16 s as candidates for MRCA is looking more and more stupid with the american CISMOA et all taking rounds .. one can not help but wonder why american aircraft are even considered for such a deal. Enough for now., lets wait and see.The ones who need to know, know.

Why is so difficult to read an article?

The issue of the P-8I "down-rated avionics suite" is related directly with "If the stand-off over the CISMoA continues"!!!!!

Why would India get a "down-rated avionics" if India signs the agreements? I am not saying that India should sign or not sign.

"imagine the F-18s with dumbed down avionics". Ah? India has considered Israeli avionics for the F-16s and is scared of "dumbed down" stuff?

I can understand fear of sanctions, etc. But please avoid ignoring what an article states and acting like Pakis by stating what is not there in the article: Where is "Orion"?

"american CISMOA et all taking rounds" - true. BUT it has been known for decades and has nothing to do ONLY with India for heaven's sake. Don't sign it and return the P-8I - that is fine, but do not keep harping about fears that India need not face.

And then to beat everything, start with the P-8I and end with A'stan Af-Pak policy!!!!!! Oh, why not - the US is selling India to china too. And is responsible for Bollywood problems, supporting IPL corruption, ............

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 May 2010 19:32

We need a rant thread to detox threadS like these.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 27 May 2010 19:51

Indian Navy employee held for spying for Pakistan

An employee of the Indian Navy has been arrested on charges of spying for Pakistan and police claimed to have recovered from him some "secret and sensitive" documents like photograph of the Hindan Air Base and map of Meerut Cantonment. 24-year-old Chand Kumar Prasad, posted in the Navy's Aircraft Maintenance Unit in Mumbai, was arrested by Delhi Police's Special Cell from New Delhi Railway Station yesterday, police sources said.

He was allegedly passing on classified information to a Pakistan High Commission official through another person, they said. Police sources said certain "secret and sensitive" documents like photograph of Hindan Air Base and map of Meerut Cantonment were recovered from Prasad.

Moles galore..

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 May 2010 21:38

Wow, seems to be (Paki) mole season in Desh now!!!

How will the IN guy get info on Meerut and Hindon AFB when there is remote chance of him being posted anywhere near those places ( atleast not Meerut)?

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 27 May 2010 23:09

I might be wrong sir but the best way to get into these bases for him would have been through access to defence personel canteen and once in he could have easily get the outright info 's he would have required ...Just a wild guess

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 May 2010 18:01

Indian Navy detects more Somali nationals off Kavaratti Island

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 May 2010 18:06

NRao wrote:We need a rant thread to detox threadS like these.

ask and you shall receive.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 May 2010 18:48

the somalis were most likely pirates who lost their way or ran out of fuel playing 700-1000km away from the african shore. I dunno how they dare to , but pirate skiffs barely 20 ft long are being used that far out possibly fed from mothership trawlers occasionally.

John · Post by **John** » 29 May 2010 04:28

On the matter of P-8I it should be noted LM was offering 8 P-3 with fully upgraded avionics ASAP for little over 600 million (compared to 2.1 billion for P-8I) and also guarantees on parts.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 29 May 2010 04:49

John wrote:On the matter of P-8I it should be noted LM was offering 8 P-3 with fully upgraded avionics ASAP for little over 600 million (compared to 2.1 billion for P-8I) and also guarantees on parts.

will believe it when they arrive

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 May 2010 06:14

ravi_ku wrote:
John wrote:On the matter of P-8I it should be noted LM was offering 8 P-3 with fully upgraded avionics ASAP for little over 600 million (compared to 2.1 billion for P-8I) and also guarantees on parts.
will believe it when they arrive

You will have to wait a real, real long time!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 29 May 2010 06:17

NRao wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:John: On the matter of P-8I it should be noted LM was offering 8 P-3 with fully upgraded avionics ASAP for little over 600 million (compared to 2.1 billion for P-8I) and also guarantees on parts.
will believe it when they arrive
You will have to wait a real, real long time!

Sir, what are punarjunma's in Hindu philosophy for?, hain ji.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 May 2010 07:06

ravi_ku wrote:
Sir, what are punarjunma's in Hindu philosophy for?, hain ji.

Part may come with rust in that case. Just saying.

Or Pakistan will not exist and China could be close to India.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 19:01

X-Posting from missile thread:

The Indo-Israeli Long Range Surface to Air Missile (LR-SAM) was successfully test fired in Israel last fortnight. "The 70-km missile was fired at an electronic target and met with its initial objectives," DRDO chief Dr Vijay Saraswat said in an exclusive interview with India Today.

The second test of the missile will be held in India sometime later this year. The missile will be integrated by Indian technicians. The LR-SAM area defence missile is being jointly developed by India and Israel under a Rs 2500 crore project which began in 2006. The missile, also called the Barak-2 are to equip the three guided missile destroyers of the Project 15A class. The three destroyers are to join the Indian navy in one year intervals beginning in 2012.

"We will deliver the system to the armed forces in 2013. I am very confident it will be an astounding success," Dr Saraswat said. A second variant, called the Medium Range SAM (MR-SAM) is being developed for the Indian Air Force under a Rs 10,000 crore project signed in 2009. The MR-SAM is to replace all the IAF's ageing Soviet-made Pechora SAM missiles. According to naval officials, a 100-km range theatre defence version called the Extended Range SAM is being developed for the four Project 15B destroyers

Questions to gurus:

a) Is the LR-SAM/Barak-NG going to be standard fit on large IN Ships?
b) How will the density of Barak-NG differ from ship to ship?
c) Do the present FCS and Radars do justice to such a long range SAM?

As for the bolded part:

a) Are P-15B going to be Indian Aegis?
b) Has any long range radar or something like Aegis been shortlisted/will be shortlisted for this?

Thanx.

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 May 2010 20:57

So, now we have a ER-SAM along with a SR-SAM, MRSAM and a LRSAM ( not to forget the Akash and SpyDer)?

The scene is getting too confusing!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2010 09:38

my understanding:
LRSAM - funded by IN - for IN only - 70 km range - barak8
MRSAM - land based for IAF/IA - I thought this was a 100km range missile !! looks bogus to me
ERSAM - imo this is the IAF/IA missile and will be navalised for P15B too
SRSAM - maitri (BEL + MBDA) cancelled
Spyder - derby + python - signed and deliveries due
Akash - multiple squadrons on order (MRSAM) - no word on Akash-ER (50km)

imo it is unlikely Akash-Er will be funded, instead Akash will be improved and tasked for the medium range 5-35km role
using a active seeker borrowed from Astra to make the radars less susceptible to arm attacks. new propellants and
wings might improve its range from 25km to 35km without drastic changes one hopes.

the ERSAM-1 will cover all from 25-100km

LRSAM-2 with new terminal kill vehicle (active) could be funded later to fill out the portfolio out to 150km (SM6ski)

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 May 2010 10:32

unlike barak and spyder,akash has the mobility,as it can mounted on the tank chasis.
So imo akash-er also has a vital role to play.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 30 May 2010 10:46

nash wrote:unlike barak and spyder,akash has the mobility,as it can mounted on the tank chasis.
So imo akash-er also has a vital role to play.

While I'm not aware of Land based deployment of Barak, Spyder is mounted on a 6X6 vehicle - so there should not be any mobility problem. As it is, if required, one can customize the carrier as per requirement. Another thing - based on the role of the missile, it might not be required to have a tracked chassis.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2010 12:28

yes for akash also, IAF has ordered the wheeled tatra launchers one assumes. the tracked version will not see service unless IA orders it.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 May 2010 13:03

my understanding:
LRSAM - funded by IN - for IN only - 70 km range - barak8
MRSAM - land based for IAF/IA - I thought this was a 100km range missile !! looks bogus to me
ERSAM - imo this is the IAF/IA missile and will be navalised for P15B too
SRSAM - maitri (BEL + MBDA) cancelled
Spyder - derby + python - signed and deliveries due
Akash - multiple squadrons on order (MRSAM) - no word on Akash-ER (50km)

Thanks for the info, Singha-saar.

So, the role of the SRSAM which was canceled is now taken over by SpyDer? Also, isnt the MRSAM also a land variant of the Barak-8 itelf?

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 May 2010 15:41

The Scorpene submarine project moves on. Uploaded about a fortnight back ie May 12, 2010.

RFI FOR PORTABLE DEEP WATER NOISE RANGE FOR PROJECT-75 :

1. IHQ, MoD (Navy)/Project-75 intends procuring a Portable Deep Water Noise Range (PDWNR) for measuring Radiated Noise of its Submarines. …………………..

Clicky

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 May 2010 15:49

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... sam-03461/

lots of details mixed up. at present , a 70km version of navy and a 100km version for army seems to be in development. IN would first push it in P15A and likely any new FFG class like P17A.

the third model is the 100km ERSAM slated for P15B .... most likely it might be a 150km version to match the SM6.

whatever be the details, the "SAM problem" right from 1km to 100km is finally under control and all it matters now is execution, funding, quality and speed of production, deployment and C3I integration. in 10 yrs all the old systems will hopefully be out (sa2/3/6/13/ sa-n-7) and all gaps filled in.

Akash has a good playground of 10-50km to grow up and fill in , with new active seekers, new ramjets and such.