MRCA News and Discussion

[naird]

Suman...if you are still active on the BR....please post some real stuff...and not the ones to increase hits on your blog...

There is nothing in your report, that is unknown...however there are some errors which you may want to correct..

thrust of F16 -- if F16 indeed had the thrust that you wrote it had...it should have been a rocket ship and not a fighter..i can understand that you are clearly smitten by teens since you took a ride on it ..but please seperate defence reporting from your orgasmic fantasies...

7.5G of SH -- last i heard SH was capable of pulling more than 9g but is limited by software controls...may Kartik can shed some light on this.

[Guddu]

Chacko ji Pls correct me if I am wrong the bird also told me this is the deal on everybody's radar but we get our work done by flying under the radar.

I am thinking of two possibilities,
1. We want the tiffy, and the rafale is there only for negotiation purposes, to get a good deal from tiffy. This is too easy and straight forward, that's not how baboos work.
2. Our baboos are chanakyans...another possibility is that they really want the F-18, but have declared tiffy the winner. This will lead to F-18 giving us the best deal. I personally believe F-18 will win. Ideas supporting this are: a)I think the air force values ayesha radar tremendously against pakis and cheenis. Ombaba will not go empty handed. b)To my simple mind, there is no geo political advantage with going with the Europeans, who are wimps. c)MMS wants the UN seat for India. Only ameerkhan can provide that in a few years time. The question is how can we get the most out of ameerkhan. d) All the leaks are likely officially sanctioned.

[GeorgeWelch]

The most amazing thing about the F 35 is the two bombs it carries. Two whole bombs. Go in supremely stealthily 1500 km into China, drop 2 bombs in the mountains and get back stealthily.

Not to keep dragging this offtopic, but

1. The F-35 carries 8 SDB + 2 AAMs internally.

2. All the MRCA contenders carry ZERO bombs stealthily.

3. If stealth is not required, it can carry just as much or more than any other contender.

Of course the F-35 isn't in the MRCA so it's all moot.

[Rahul Shukla]

Apologies if posted already...

TIMES NOW: IAF Recommends Rafale & Eurofighter For MMRCA!

[yantra]

Chacko ji Pls correct me if I am wrong the bird also told me this is the deal on everybody's radar but we get our work done by flying under the radar.

I am thinking of two possibilities,
1. We want the tiffy, and the rafale is there only for negotiation purposes, to get a good deal from tiffy. This is too easy and straight forward, that's not how baboos work.
2. Our baboos are chanakyans...another possibility is that they really want the F-18, but have declared tiffy the winner. This will lead to F-18 giving us the best deal. I personally believe F-18 will win. Ideas supporting this are: a)I think the air force values ayesha radar tremendously against pakis and cheenis. Ombaba will not go empty handed. b)To my simple mind, there is no geo political advantage with going with the Europeans, who are wimps. c)MMS wants the UN seat for India. Only ameerkhan can provide that in a few years time. The question is how can we get the most out of ameerkhan. d) All the leaks are likely officially sanctioned.

Agree with your thought process. India, no doubt, is negotiating hard here. I am sure they want Unkil to announce their support for India at the UNSC when BO is in India soon (refer my quote pasted in this thread a couple of pages ago from - http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/ ... the-us.htm).

But for Europe, this will be a huge win for UK, France and Germany if EADS wins. The money in defense spending by India, and the intellectual capital (engineering base), and the ability to leverage India geo-politically & Indian markets will give a tremendous advantage to them in the long-run. I am sure these countries will dole out all mithais, carrots out of their baskets as well as from their neighbors'! Now the game is on - remains to be seen if India buys Unkil's mithais or EU's.

[enqyoob]

Of course the F-35 isn't in the MRCA so it's all moot.

Is it, I wonder.. This MRCA "competition" is the longest-running tamasha, for a good reason: the moment it is over, India becomes liable for 42,000 crores, and vulnerable to all kinds of sanctions/arrogance. Why end such a good thing?

The F-16 and F-18 offers were insults, IMO, for something that India buys only once in every 40 years. Just too old, period. Same for MiG-35, but Russkies may not have any viable later developments, the newer stuff is vaporware that doesn't seem to have made it past prototype stage.

OTOH, if I look at developments in Khanate:

a) F-22 is looking at the end of its production run - and maybe end of the line, as sentiment in US seems to be massively against more investment in manned air-superiority fighters or multi-role anything.

b) F-35 is coming up, but Khanate is looking at a massive problem - no money to keep TWO engine lines going, so GE's engine line is also looking at the end of the line. GE has already declared that if that engine is not bought, they will simply have to shut down that whole development, which is a huge technology and humanpower loss.

Neat solution: sell some of either/both to India, now that BO is coming over to dilli to sign newclear this and that.

If EF is being sold to Saudis, why not F-22 and F-35/GE to India? Suddenly, Ell-See-Ay starts looking at Kaveri-2050 (expected delivery date) with counter-rotating Blisks added to the long list of its PowerPoint Features (like supercruise, etc).

So my prediction is that the Khans and BO are too smart to let the Oiropeans, especially EADS, walk away with $10B in assured sales and a stranglehold on the Indian market.

[Cosmo_R]

@enqyoob:"...Khans and BO are too smart to let the Oiropeans, especially EADS, walk away with $10B in assured sales and a stranglehold on the Indian market."

True but Schumer just called Infosys a 'chop shop' and the US Congress voted for a $2K fee for H1B visas.

This is not going to make CISMOA/LSA and the nuke liability bill passage any easier.

What do you think?

[negi]

This is OT (btw does it even matter on this dhaga ? ) but Indian ITVTY trade by and large won't be affected due to the increase in VISA fees. Coming to MRCA what is gonna happen is:

1. Twaddlers in MoD will cry foul over high unit price of Typhoon and Rafale and force IAF to re-evaluate the platforms until the one which former wants has been selected.
2. Unkil based vendor will pay some lifafa journo (courtesy paid news) and claim Europeans paid kickbacks to GOI , the issue will be settled by 'trial by media'.

Circus will go on until some baboo will crack a whip and take a call on the whole tamasha .

[GeorgeWelch]

The F-16 and F-18 offers were insults, IMO, for something that India buys only once in every 40 years. Just too old, period.

The USN obviously doesn't consider the SH an 'insult' or 'too old', they just bought another 124 THIS YEAR.

b) F-35 is coming up, but Khanate is looking at a massive problem - no money to keep TWO engine lines going, so GE's engine line is also looking at the end of the line. GE has already declared that if that engine is not bought, they will simply have to shut down that whole development, which is a huge technology and humanpower loss.

You saw a little tidbit on the F-35 engine war and blew it totally out of proportion. The President wants the engine dead, some members of Congress want to keep it alive. The total amounts of money involved are miniscule relatively speaking and have zero to do with any hypothetical F-35 offer to India. There's a thousand such budget battles every year.

why not F-22 and F-35/GE to India?

The F-22 wasn't made available to ANY country, including our closest allies like Australia (who really wanted it)

Besides that, the production line for long-lead-time items for the F-22 is already shutting down.

[manum]

this thread is too stressed...to hang a magnet suggesting north...it just goes on rotating...

[Arya Sumantra]

The USN obviously doesn't consider the SH an 'insult' or 'too old', they just bought another 124 THIS YEAR.

Good for Boeing it's lobby was successful in "Salvage sale". Anyways what other option does usn have until the f35 comes ? Has it bought anything from its "allies"? So the lobby made good of the "We are in bad shape until next plane" slogan. Anyways what's good for sea-level is fine at sea-level.

Besides even we do upgrades with our jaguars and migs stuffing them with newer electronics but wouldn't treat them seriously as candidates if offered new.

[Dmurphy]

Shiv Aroor's latest post says the order will most certainly be for close to 200 pieces.

[chackojoseph]

See MiG-35, F sollah and F teen are on their dead end of developmental life cycle. Grippen is LCA. balance what is left? IIRC this madrassa logic was with jingos for past so many years. Why be surprised on the choices.

But, our politicians don't have this madrassa logic. Let us see what they buy for us.

[enqyoob]

You saw a little tidbit on the F-35 engine war and blew it totally out of proportion.

Ah, thanks! I keep forgetting that I am in the e-company of the Truly Knowledgeable. My abject apologies for my ignorance.

Some months back (long before any recent pronouncements) I had occasion to visit the entire websites set up by both UTC and GE to push their respective pov, in very very explicit, blatant, kutta-khata-kutteko lobbying, one for a Standardized Source and the other for "Vive La Difference". Somehow did not come across as a very usual budget snarl, but as a life-or-death issue for GE, and an opportunity to kill GE Engines for the other side.

As for USN buying another hajaar F-18s, sure, if you already have a fleet and have invested gazillions in training the pilots and maintenance crews, and there is really no adversary out there threatening the USN with air superiority issues, you keep buying upgrades. Look at the history of the Hindustan Ambassador Car Mark 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. All excellent and ultra-modern, and great value for the money. Somehow I don't see ppl rushing out to buy them any more, given other alternatives.

Point is, it has become very difficult, next to impossible, in Khanate to convince Congress or anyone else of the relevance of human-piloted fighter-bombers as an investment in the Future Force. V/STOL etc are partial arguments, but even those can be done much more cost-efficiently by UCAVs. So those who depend on a fighter production line are looking at unemployment, period. Lockheed in Mah'retta Jawjuh have already started layoffs, IIRC, and there is nothing in the pipeline to keep even that plant going, other than C-130s.

All these make for some interesting discussions on the relative merits of not selling front-line fighters to furriners vs. keeping a major employer in one's State / constituency solvent and a major technical capability alive in the nation.

Selling AMRAAMs to the Al Qaeda (aka Pakistan Army/Air Force) is a good start to sell fighters to the yindoos.

P.S. Just to toss in the odd grenade. I would fully support $2K fee paid by the companies that sponsor H-1B, if that means intelligent processing and swift hassle-free visas.

The COTUS, in an incredibly far-sighted move in the late 1990s, dictated that 33% of the fees was to be given to National Science Foundation to set up scholarships for USC/PR students in the disciplines where the companies argued for H-1B, in order to address the perceived lack of qualified technical personnel. Funds had to be awarded straight to the selected students, no baksheesh/ university overhead etc. Every semester the project director had to report on a website that took data for COTUS, how every student was doing.

Best use of funds I have ever seen the guvrmand make (OK, only when in the hands of the right project directors..).

Then (recently) they brought in a desi Program Monitah who brought in her own p-brained scheme, which destroyed the best features of this program and made it yet another Handout to the Least Deserving With Minimal Effort, and the older program was shut down ... just in time for the e-khanomic crisis to hit and make it impossible for the smartest and most deserving of the students to continue their education. Since she's gone now to destroy something else, maybe they will start using this 2K fees well again.

Sorry for the OT, but someone asked.

[shiv]

1. The F-35 carries 8 SDB + 2 AAMs internally.

8 SDBs that weigh 100 kg each. That is less explosive power per bomb than an average Paki/Iraqi/Afghan truck bomb. I don't want to take this too far either - but I suppose that by coining the right acronym the F 35 could be made to carry 2000 SHGs (Standard Hand Grenades)

[Arya Sumantra]

See MiG-35, F sollah and F teen are on their dead end of developmental life cycle. Grippen is LCA. balance what is left? IIRC this madrassa logic was with jingos for past so many years. Why be surprised on the choices.

But, our politicians don't have this madrassa logic. Let us see what they buy for us.

The mig-35 is only from cost-balancing point of view not taken seriously as bringing new tech but atleast it comes without the strings. Yanks created a whole new paradigm by offering even salvage value stuff with strings.

They(politicians) have money logic. But treating a gun (that doesn't fire until the handcuffs are worn) at par with other guns is indeed nothing but Madarsa logic.

[nachiket]

Several interesting tidbits in Shiv Aroor's post.

the air force has based its trial evaluation report (submitted on August 1) on the overarching and unstated directive that it needs select a "modern western combat aircraft".

But..

Significantly, according to Srinjoy's report, the IAF has cleared all six fighters for the next level, but clearly indicated its preference in an order of merit.

So it's not just the Rafale and typhoon that were selected.

In other words, a green light for the Rafale and Eurofighter, a yellow light for the F/A-18, and big red for the Gripen, F-16 and MiG-35.

Apparently BRF is not the only place where people think that the Gripen is too close to the LCA specs for comfort. However according the Aroor's friend Srinjoy Choudhary's sources...

Also, it is almost certain that the final order for aircraft will be closer to 200 airplanes.

So from whose musharraf do we pull out the money for 200 Rafales/Typhoons hain? (if indeed it is true)

Methinks the scenario suggested by negi saar some posts above is more than likely.

[chackojoseph]

They(politicians) have money logic. But treating a gun (that doesn't fire until the handcuffs are worn) at par with other guns is indeed nothing but Madarsa logic.

Since, they are going to choose between IAF selected options, my opinion is that whatever they choose confirms to IAF needs. I am sure there is no "perfect" choice in this contest. So, it remains open for them to to choose what they want and can suit to their political and diplomatic needs.

Added later...

If more MiG-29 + derivative do not get orders, IN will be clutching its last straw of MiG-29K's.

[Philip]

If this report is true,then this is a "sneak attack" by the IAF to "bomb" the anticipated GOI's pressure tactics to award the MMRCA contest to the whims and fancies of mere foreign pressure,also well timed before Om-Baba makes his conquering visit to India to receive much loot from the arms of Uncle sam's favourite Indian,Dr.Singh.If true,then the desire to acquire western aerospace tech-as Russia is already aboard with the 5th-gen fighter,and MIG-29s are being upgraded,is clearly indicated.US tech comes with so many strings that it is a high-risk venture to buy American,that too,"old hags" as I've always said.However,both Rafale and Typhoon come in at steep cost and this is where the GOI/MOD might try and exercise their veto.In overcoming this,the Typhoon has an advantage over the Rafale if the EJ engine is chosen for the LCA,reducing overall costs,but it's AESA radar is not in sight at all! How the IAF could justify such a rating is questionable.
It also underscores the IAF's wanting an insurance policy of the LCA MK-2 fails to deliver,either in performance or with its past experience of HAL,in timely production.

These two aircraft are the newest of the lot and thus the IAF has planted its flag.At the last Aero-India I asked a veteran scribe of one of our def. mags whom he thought would win.He said that he thought that the Typhoon had an ace up its sleeve.The Typhoon peddlars also touted their aircraft as having the best user-friendly cokpit and were very confident.If the Mirage-2000 upgrades are a "crumb" to the French,to award the Typhoon the laurel wreath,then they could still surprise one with an offer of transferring a ready Rafale squadron immediately,"an offer one can't refuse".

PS:Anyone contacting Paul?!

[GeorgeWelch]

Somehow did not come across as a very usual budget snarl, but as a life-or-death issue for GE, and an opportunity to kill GE Engines for the other side.

Hardly, GE has a very healthy commercial engine line.

[enqyoob]

Hardly, GE has a very healthy commercial engine line.

Surprised to hear this argument from a person who is so knowledgeable.

All the key developments in the commercial engine line came from lucrative military engine R&D in past decades. Which is why the F-135 is life or death. No aerospace manufacturer survives in the civil business for long without the military R&D contracts.

[GeorgeWelch]

1. The F-35 carries 8 SDB + 2 AAMs internally.

8 SDBs that weigh 100 kg each. That is less explosive power per bomb than an average Paki/Iraqi/Afghan truck bomb

Before

After

An SDB can handle most things you would want to attack, whether SAM sites or aircraft bunkers

but I suppose that by coining the right acronym the F 35 could be made to carry 2000 SHGs (Standard Hand Grenades)

Funny you should mention that, it does carry 2 CBU-105 Sensor Fuzed Weapons internally for a total of 80 skeets

[GeorgeWelch]

All the key developments in the commercial engine line came from lucrative military engine R&D in past decades.

Nope.

Which is why the F-135 is life or death. No aerospace manufacturer survives in the civil business for long without the military R&D contracts.

The alternate engine (F136) only needs $485 million. If they felt that strongly about it, they would just fund it (and they might yet).

Any India/F-35/F136 'plot' would have to come from the administration, the same administration that's fighting tooth-and-nail to destroy the alternate engine. Your argument makes no sense.

[sawant]

Hardly, GE has a very healthy commercial engine line.

I always thought heavy discounts on the engine are what makes commercial jetliners cheaper and worthy of ordering in good numbers... and that was offset by military contracts...

[GeorgeWelch]

Hardly, GE has a very healthy commercial engine line.

I always thought heavy discounts on the engine are what makes commercial jetliners cheaper and worthy of ordering in good numbers... and that was offset by military contracts...

The commercial side has to pay for itself. They certainly aren't going to sell engines at a loss.

Again, this is just $485 million. If they felt it was that important, they would just fund it.

GE Aviation had $13.2 billion in revenue in 2006.

$0.485 billion is certainly noticeable, but hardly make or break

[Carl_T]

I don't see what the SDB picture proves. You're sending a small number of aircraft into a hostile and armed airspace, you will need to do some serious damage. Now the F-22 can carry two 1000 lb bombs as well as four other missiles for defense.

[GeorgeWelch]

I don't see what the SDB picture proves.

It proves that the SDB is a very potent weapon capable of ruining your day.

And the F-35 carries 8 of them internally.

As precision has increased, the amount of explosive needed has decreased

Now the F-22 can carry two 1000 lb bombs

And the F-35 can carry two 2000 lb bombs if you want to go that route.

[Carl_T]

Yeah, did you read the rest of that sentence? The F-22 carries 4 missiles on top of the 2 1000lbs bombs the F-35 carries, and the F-35 is a "strike" aircraft? How much do each of these things cost now?

[Austin]

More On TimesNOW's Post On The MMRCA Selection

Srinjoy's sources tell him the air force has based its trial evaluation report (submitted on August 1) on the overarching and unstated directive that it needs select a "modern western combat aircraft". Read those first two words carefully, because they mean different things to different people in the air force, government and aircraft-manufacturer campaign offices.

[Austin]

If this is true then why did they even invited Gripen , Mig and F-16 in the first place and wasted their time , effort and money involved in the trials

[parshuram]

Could not agree with you more Philip Saar. Good to see IAF indeed trying to get what it wants and wish and If this reoport on TIMES NOW is indeed true then it i clear implication that there is a considerable fear among the top brass of IAF despite their evaluation and all selection of aircraft could go with political wish list

Sincerly wish that GOI pay heed to what IAF says and give a clear message that business is buisness and i beleive they had already got a taste from americans in P-8's and C-17's that state of the art technology is not available to them untill unless they act as Unkil's mercenaries ...

[parshuram]

If this is true then why did they even invited Gripen , Mig and F-16 in the first place and wasted their time , effort and money involved in the trials

With Due respect Austin, These type of statements would be expected from all the five whomw would be left out that why you wasted our time when we were not to be selected !!!

[Manishw]

If this is true then why did they even invited Gripen , Mig and F-16 in the first place and wasted their time , effort and money involved in the trials

All will be amply rewarded in other ways.Nobody is going to loose.

[GeorgeWelch]

Yeah, did you read the rest of that sentence?

This since is going offtopic, I replied in the International Military Discussion thread

[Carl_T]

Nothing is off topic in MRCA dhaaga.

[RKumar]

If this is true then why did they even invited Gripen , Mig and F-16 in the first place and wasted their time , effort and money involved in the trials

Austin Sir, I am surprised and disappointed to hear this from you... as being a senior BR member, you are more worried about external vendors then our national interests.

1) As per my logic, which might is wrong... now IAF knows strengths and weakness of the each plane, which they might be fighting (e.g. PAK F16 or China's Mig). Because at the end of the day, every vendor needs sales and they will (give some + and - based on national interests) )sell to whoever is paying them.

2) Were we planning to select all 6 planes??? At the end, only one vendor will be winner.

[Neshant]

Nish,how can you make a statement that Russia,etc. will not collaborate with us on a fighter project,when the most important project,the 5th-gen fighter JV has been signed!

The question is what if anything is India contributing from and R&D prespective to the project. If the answer is nothing much, then India is just subsidizing foreign R&D base and buying a completed product. Its a disaster for a country the size of India to be doing nothing and claiming a project is a joint venture.

I'm afraid none of the military aviation powers - US, Russia, France or Euros will ever accept us as equal partners in the development of any fighter project. The aim will always be to keep India dependant on their R&D base and purchasing the finished product lock, stock and barrel.

Sweden however is an exception since a small country has limited ability to research & finance everything under the sun for the next generation of fighter planes. They barely have the economy of scale to absorb the finished product. They will make excellent partners as their dependance on India for its size, money and hopefully R&D will be just as great as our dependance on them for their innovative R&D, project management and excellent ability to integrate off the shelf technologies.

Personally I think there is far more Indian R&D will gain from Sweden than any other country. Later on they could get involved in developing our civilian aerospace industry and share the spoils.

If one looks at it purely from the export point of view, any new fiighter project created jointly by Sweden and India will almost certainly have a large manufacturing base in India. India would proportionately benefit far more if any export orders for the plane were generated. Cooperating with no other nation would allow for this advantage. We'll be making tyres and tail lights and nothing more if one joined a future JSF/Eurofighter type project while the real R&D and manufacturing would be going on in the US.

[prastor]

Why is there a discussion about F35 or F22 for India?

The F22 is a dead project. Why would IAF even think of getting an F22 even if Unkil offers it? Unkil himself doesn't want it.

On the other hand, do you know the F35 now costs (as of 2010-11) almost "$192 Million" a piece? This estimation is based on the mass production of the fighter to the numbers

http://www.saffm.hq.af.mil/shared/media ... 28-072.pdf

Who in their right mind in IAF would ask the MoD to request Ombaba for the F35 at that cost while it is so obese already that the 191kN engine is unable to take it to even a 1.0 TWR (0.97 at 50% fuel and no weapons load, to be precise). It will only get heavier before reaching production.

Now, those 2 junk fighters aside, IMHO, even the F-18 does not stand a chance no matter what ombaba says later in his visit this year. The IAF clearly stated that the F-18 is grossly underpowered and that they were disappointed with its flight performance if a certain defense journo's source is to be believed. If such a substandard fighter is inducted, HAL will cry foul over the IAF ranting about Tejas being underpowered.

[Gagan]

It was obvious that India would not be selecting Russian or US orgin fighters for the MMRCA for some time now.
The fact that India agreed to accept the P-8I and the C-130Js without the latest electronis suites, just because India didn't want to be bound in the CISMOA, would have given sleepless nights to the US aircraft manufacturers, because this was going to have a bearing on their fighters being in contention in the MMRCA. Their worst nightmares are coming true it seems.

As far as the toss up between the Rafale and the Eurofighter is concerned, the Eurofighter is clearly in the lead.
The offer that the consortium of the 4 big european powers have for India if the EF gets selected is simply too good to resist. Consider this: The consortium wants India in as the 5th partner, with a very big share of the manufacturing shifting to india because of lower labour costs here, and a share in development. The EF already has a big commitment from its 5 customers and has a secure development future, besides its AESA is expected to be as good as the 2nd gen US origin radars. Tranche 3 will also make it a truly multirole fighter.
(At this rate, India will be part of the EU before Turkey! Hell, India just got offered to be made an 'honorary white' nation just like the Japanese were made - LOL)

Now if the consortium can just get the price right.

[prastor]

Nish,how can you make a statement that Russia,etc. will not collaborate with us on a fighter project,when the most important project,the 5th-gen fighter JV has been signed!

The question is what if anything is India contributing from and R&D prespective to the project. If the answer is nothing much, then India is just subsidizing foreign R&D base and buying a completed product. Its a disaster for a country the size of India to be doing nothing and claiming a project is a joint venture.

I'm afraid none of the military aviation powers - US, Russia, France or Euros will ever accept us as equal partners in the development of any fighter project. The aim will always be to keep India dependant on their R&D base and purchasing the finished product lock, stock and barrel.

Sweden however is an exception since a small country has limited ability to research & finance everything under the sun for the next generation of fighter planes. They barely have the economy of scale to absorb the finished product. They will make excellent partners as their dependance on India for its size, money and hopefully R&D will be just as great as our dependance on them for their innovative R&D, project management and excellent ability to integrate off the shelf technologies.

Personally I think there is far more Indian R&D will gain from Sweden than any other country. Later on they could get involved in developing our civilian aerospace industry and share the spoils.

If one looks at it purely from the export point of view, any new fiighter project created jointly by Sweden and India will almost certainly have a large manufacturing base in India. India would proportionately benefit far more if any export orders for the plane were generated. Cooperating with no other nation would allow for this advantage. We'll be making tyres and tail lights and nothing more if one joined a future JSF/Eurofighter type project while the real R&D and manufacturing would be going on in the US.

What India lacks right now is the ability to design and manufacture radars and engines. With the MMRCA, if India tries to master the AESA radar technology, and also successfully complete the Kaveri engine project (whenever that happens ) we will be almost independent in designing and manufacturing our own fighters, whether they are manned or unmanned.