J & K news and discussion

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 07:16

somnath wrote:But for the "nationalist" crowd, it would be pertinent to ask ,why does the "God's own party" tread in with the flag whenever there is political dividend, real and perceived, at play? A lot of us dont remember the Hubli case a few years ago, where a similar "flag waiving" was attempted there...

If any community or party has an issue with the national flag being hoisted anywhere, they deserve to have it hoisted everyday in front of their eyes or they can hoist it themselves and spare us their issues of "takleef" when someone else does it...simple! If OA is so worried about BJP and KMs are indeed capable of doing it themselves, let them do so & take the initiative.

I mentioned before, BJP is a poltiical party, and has every right to play as much cynical politics as every other party..Lets not wrap them in the flag and bestow a shinier than the white knight veneer on them....

Irrelevant. They may be good, bad or whatever, but in this case they are doing the right thing & something which deserves to be done, and something which would never have been required if the OA Govt and the Central Govt had been half competent at handling Kashmir with a just but firm hand. The BJP is making it clear to the separatists & their deal makers that there is an active opposition in India and a significant group which does not care a whit for their takleef with the idea of India & will oppose their antics. A big middle finger to their belief of "azaadi" after living off Indian taxpayer money for decades.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2011 07:17

Timeline

- BJYM announces start of Kolkata to Srinagar Yatra
- Omar Abdullah goes into a tizzy and starts his Delhi yatra or chakkar
- Kasuri spills the beans to ensure current TSP leaders dont grab the credit
Says all was worked out between Mushy and Pranab Mukherjee
-MMS mumbles something about not hoisting the national flag
- Media chatterati start weighing in against the yatra
- BJP "allies" weigh in against the yatra.
- yatra starts with popular acclamation along its path
- Center resorts to subterfuge in turning back BJYM supporters from Karnataka
- Follows with evicting BJP leaders from Jammu airport.
- Omar Abdullah arrests BJP leaders and works to stop the yatra
- Now we are on Republic Day

Kasuri's yelp was turning point.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 26 Jan 2011 07:17

somnath wrote:
Karan M wrote:Yup. Whats all this BS about open borders, about "peace parks", enduring legacy etc?

What is the need for back channel talks with a terrorist state that targets common citizens who, unlike our much vaunted political class don't have myriad agencies protecting their valuable backsides.
Wasnt the ABV govt doing EXACTLY the same things?

Exactly, but he was not carrying meat for the dogs but a big stick. That's the difference. That has not only kept the violent dog from biting but also ensured that the dog falls in line and obeys the master, thereby ensuring peace.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Jan 2011 07:21

somnath wrote:
Rudradev wrote:the right to assemble peaceably for the purposes of a religious procession is a fait accompli.

What can be deduced from this "answer", such as it is, is that the fundamental rights of all Indian citizens should stand abrogated whenever there is a "tense, surcharge situation where there is a possibility of peace being disturbed."
That is exacly right..None of the fundamental rights are abslute, not in India..There are numerous court judgements to that effect, and a number of laws as well...144 CrPC being a prime example...

[/quote] BS. The right to free speech matter has been tested many times, and EVERY time the courts have asked for a higher level of proof , with regards to hamper public order, resulting in the disturbance of peace and safety of the general public. This is the argument OA is making.

What OA has to prove is this act of the BJP seeks to deliberately hurt the religious sentiments of a class of people. Now, what is this act. The hosting of the Indian flag, on a national day, in a sovereign territory on public grounds? Now, who is threatened by this proposed flag hoisting? The separatists. What OA is protecting here is the "right" of the separatists to not feel hurt, through this expression of Indian sovereignty.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Jan 2011 07:23

Prem wrote:Please Change the RANDE to RANDI . I stands for Idiots.

RAPE and RAND(E/I) ... go quite well together, no?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 07:25

somnath wrote: But for the "nationalist" crowd, it would be pertinent to ask ,why does the "God's own party" tread in with the flag whenever there is political dividend, real and perceived, at play? A lot of us dont remember the Hubli case a few years ago, where a similar "flag waiving" was attempted there...

It is because INC, the party that won freedom

,still encourages some fringe sections of Indian Muslims to retain their pakiness. It is where BJP's political and national interests merge. By carrying the national flag BJP sends two messages -

1. That Indian core values are non negotiable.
2. That BJP is willing to politicize those core values to any extent required. BJP knows that this stand doesn't win votes, in fact it lost votes as well as alliance partners in political arena with this stand.

So blaming BJP with political gimmics on this national flag hoisting on Republic Day is naivety at best.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 07:28

somnath wrote:Wasnt the ABV govt doing EXACTLY the same things?

ABV had a rude but much deserved wake up call after 1999. Where is MMS's wake up call? The dude went on to do a Sharm E Shaikh, sent a dove card after 26/11 to Zardari (yeah, Times of India ran a glowing story on that "peacemaking" after his country gets attacked and hundreds get killed and mutilated for life) - makes one feel all warm & fuzzy. I'd shudder to think what Indira Gandhi would have made of that, but she's gone & the G's that are left, well - partying is their forte, not running a nation.

When, if ever, will this clique (given the other excuse that MMS is hogtied, he cant even do anything without mataji and babaji crosschecking) wake up?

Where is even the question of waking up, when there is a deliberate interplay with interests that downplay the impact of jihadi terrorism & use competing elements of the indian state to serve the ruling party's interests - out comes "saffron terror", 26/11 RSS ki saazish (the idiot who came up with that is now a key advisor), batla house a fake encounter..

Then the complete corruption edifice - with deal after deal crawling out of the woodwork as being manipulated. Then the go slow on armed forces modernisation, so much so that reports now openly note that the Army said it was not fit for war post 26/11 & this time, unlike 1999, a poor economy cannot stand excuse. Then the whole nuclear deal tamasha, where again secrecy & media legerdemain was employed to silence/quell a range of valid doubts.

Its not JUST Kashmir. Its the whole facade & how this administration has ruled. It has co-opted the media across the board & rules by fiat & diktat over the public which is deliberately kept unaware of critical developments. Heck, I couldn't care less if the Martians ruled India provided they weren't as power hungry & anything goes, as the current lot is.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 07:32

If any community or party has an issue with the national flag being hoisted anywhere, they deserve to have it hoisted everyday in front of their eyes or they can hoist it themselves and spare us their issues of "takleef" when someone else does it...simple! If OA is so worried about BJP and KMs are indeed capable of doing it themselves, let them do so & take the initiative.

So pick on every single case of lunacy (or quasi-lunacy, or "nationalist-agnosticism"), create a brouhaha, and turn the lives of millions of other (patriotic, flag-loving) Indians topsy turvy..Thats great statesmanship!

The BJP is making it clear to the separatists & their deal makers that there is an active opposition in India and a significant group which does not care a whit for their takleef with the idea of India & will oppose their antics. A big middle finger to their belief of "azaadi" after living off Indian taxpayer money for decades.

KMs can believe what they want, but a flag in Lal Chowk does not increase India's soverignty in ANY fashion - legal, political, tactical or strategic..Sure, an event like this brings up the dispute in front pages and enables sundry worthies in the West to pontificate on "core issues"...So on balance, a great strategic vistory, isnt it?!!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 07:32

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 26 Jan 2011 07:37

some people posted that other parties do not support the yatra.

reasons are not too far to find.
The yatra has been communalised by the congress and its media. BJP has been made into a communal party(wrt muslims dalits and christians) for a long time.
the yatra passed through 11 states with no violence. some of them have significant muslim populations-
Even if it is for a nationalist cause with the tiranga, it is communalised due to the above reasons.
So it becomes easy for other parties to distance themselves from this yatra and try to paint BJP in a corner.
even if one party says it will support BJP they are toast. None of them have the resources (money power) to start a long yatra. other than congress only BJP has the people and money power(distant second to congress).
Congress does not do any yatra - simple reason it is the ruling party, controls all levers of power.

Nitish kumar said he will not support yatra for political reasons.He will cornered by the congress and media. He is trying to keep himself aloof from a political minefield/IEDs. He did not prevent his people from joining/ helping the yatra. (important distinction).

Of course BJP has the maximum leaders from non forward classes compared to congress for all its bluster of party of under privileged.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 26 Jan 2011 07:42

somnath wrote:
This yatra is politics - and I think its stupid politics as it simply distracts attention from the real issues with UPAII - but it is politics, and nothing else...No nationalism, nothing...

Here you are partly right. The BJP being a political party will deal with issues of interest to the nation. The issue here is Nationalism. To be on the right side of this issue, is what good politics ought to be and a party siding with that issue, ought to reap its dividends. It is another matter that when it comes time to vote the Indian populace is yet to learn to vote on security issues. So in one way, they know that the issue has limited political dividends, yet they persist. You can boil that down to cynicism and CT or plain old stupid, Nationalism.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 07:42

Somnath ji, why are you so worried about what West will think and pontificate, what ground realities will this news to be on front pages change on what is already being done in Kashmir against Indian interests. And if you care so much about this news then what will be people making of the news that Govt of India not allowing Indians to raise their national flag on Indian territory. Why concentrate only about one part of the news.

What strategic victory the ruling party bought us hain jee? The question is not of whether BJP is right or wrong, the question is whether we can respectfully unfurl the national flag at a public place on republic day.

Added Later....

As per the 9X news clip posted above, when the separatists come to Delhi and give anti India speeches on Republic Day they have the right to speech and spread hate among people. But when BJP wanna urfurl the national flag its right to do so is being trampled upon. Why are these double standards being applied by GOI.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 07:46

somnath wrote:So pick on every single case of lunacy (or quasi-lunacy, or "nationalist-agnosticism"), create a brouhaha, and turn the lives of millions of other (patriotic, flag-loving) Indians topsy turvy..Thats great statesmanship!

What millions, which millions! I live in India & my life has not been turned topsy turvy! And if it is occasionally turned topsy turvy by issues such as this, so be it! I'd rather it is, than wake up fine morning & find out scurrilous deal making has gone on, courtesy the boiling frog syndrome & at the time, common folks being not even bothered what has been going on. You live in Singapore & are not even remotely affected by anything Indian unless you count the 'trons you waste on this forum - spare me your protestations of having your patriotic and flag loving life interrupted!

KMs can believe what they want, but a flag in Lal Chowk does not increase India's soverignty in ANY fashion - legal, political, tactical or strategic..Sure, an event like this brings up the dispute in front pages and enables sundry worthies in the West to pontificate on "core issues"...So on balance, a great strategic vistory, isnt it?!!

[/quote]

You may think this & you may be worried about what sundry worthies in the West think about core issues but I am least bothered. To us everyday mango aadmis, this is a big danda to the crowd within and outside India which keeps pontificating about how nasty India oppresses the KMs and should get out of J&K & which was thinking silent deal making was possible! And if the sundry worthies in the west want to keep having India order their thingmajibs using my tax money, they better talk nice!

Of course you believe this does not increase India's sovereignty in any fashion, but then again, you also think Binayak Sen (grade A Maoist turd) is "people like us" and civil society activist, so allow me to take what you think of "sovereignty" with your "strategery edumacation", with a big serving of table salt, thanks much!!

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 07:58

Karan M wrote:What millions, which millions! I live in India & my life has not been turned topsy turvy! And if it is occasionally turned topsy turvy by issues such as this, SO BE IT! I'd rather it is, than wake up fine morning & find out scurrilous deal making has gone on, courtesy the boiling frog syndrome & not even bothering what has been going on.

Cut the personal bits out...About "you" not being affected, sure...But ask the people who are "affected"! More importantly, ask the brass (police and military) what they think of these shenanigans on their operations..You heard what Gen Malik had to say, you read what B Raman had to say...You might want to read what Moloy Dhar had to say about Ekta YatraVer I..

Karan M wrote:You may think this & you may be worried about what sundry worthies in the West think about core issues but I am least bothered

Unfortunately high politics is not played in a fashion "you think" is right or wrong...Media, international reactions play defining roles...Why do these morons organise shipping trips to Gaza? Why did they organise stone pelting in such a large scale? the national flag will be hoisted in Srinagar today..But the tamasha of the yatra will mean sundry media outlets and governments will start pontificating on the dipute..You have jut handed another (brownie or otherwise) point to Pakistan...

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 26 Jan 2011 08:03

vina wrote:Actually your "right" is subject to reasonable restrictions. If you land up with 10,000 people and say I want to hoist the flag at Madras Central Station ,the local administration is well within their rights to regulate it, tell you no, you can't do it at Chennai Central and create a massive chaos in such a busy area and hassling all passengers and everyone, and direct you to the hockey stadium nearby to hold your function.

What you and other posters who provide such reasoning always fail to consider is the fact that the national flag is being raised at a spot which has been symbolically claimed by the terrorists in past by raising Pakistani flag. The right analogy would be whether you would be willing to hoist a national flag at Madras Central Station AFTER terrorists have symbolically claimed it as their own personal belonging by hoisting terrorist flag there.

This happens in EVERY country, including USA/UK/ you name it. Apply for a march in US for any reason (there is one for some reason or another in NYC), there will be carefully defined routes, police protection, traffic control, the works.

No, no, and again no. It doesn't happen in USA/UK. I asked this before and will ask again: What would USA/UK do if terrorists managed to raise their terrorist flag in middle of times square or London clock tower?

vina wrote: SwamyG, let us have some perspective here (this is purely a US narrative) . If you as an individual want to fly the US, Confederate, UK, Russian, Isreali, French, Indian , Canadian or whatever flag you want to fly in your yard in the US, you can do it and perfectly well all the time. In fact folks in the US do it ALL the time. I have done it myself! That does not make your back yard Isreali/French/Indian/Russian /whatever.

Again wrong analogy, the issue here is bunch of terrorist flying a terrorist flag not some drunk Mexicans raising the Mexican flag in their backyard to celebrate cinco de mayo.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2011 08:08

somnath wrote:..........
I mentioned before, BJP is a poltiical party, and has every right to play as much cynical politics as every other party..Lets not wrap them in the flag and bestow a shinier than the white knight veneer on them...

it is only some people who continue to insist on wrapping the flag around BJP (which in their eyes transforms the tricolour to garbage), to most of us it is the flag of our nation, nothing more, nothing less.
had the favoured govt of the self-professed 'progressive' and so-called 'liberals' bothered to stop the paki flag from unfurling at lal chowk last year in lieu of the tricolour, BJP won't have had this issue to exploit.
this is fanboyism in its utter ridiculous extreme, if party A fails completely in its duties, stay mum and pretend nothing has happened. but if party B criticises party A, latch onto that, call them fascist and make it sound like the biggest crime in history.
the stench of this putrid hypocrisy is unbearable.

This yatra is politics - and I think its stupid politics as it simply distracts attention from the real issues with UPAII - but it is politics, and nothing else...No nationalism, nothing...

all omar had to do was to promise that the tricolour will go up at lal chowk. it is interesting that his refusal to do so which is supposedly leading to all this breaking up of peace is attracting no criticism. but of course, he doesn't belong to the party designated for bashing.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 26 Jan 2011 08:12

Omar Abdullah
How come everyone on Twitter critical of my decision to stop the yatra are silent about Nitish Kumar & Sharad Yadav's opposition to yatra?

Cause you, know, Nitish and sharad are not pure Indians ( read Barlevi Hindu), only LKA, Sushma and Jaitley are pure Indians (wahabi Hindu). We will take them later, but primary task is oust you the unbeliever?

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 08:24

somnath wrote:Cut the personal bits out...About "you" not being affected, sure...But ask the people who are "affected"! More importantly, ask the brass (police and military) what they think of these shenanigans on their operations..You heard what Gen Malik had to say, you read what B Raman had to say...You might want to read what Moloy Dhar had to say about Ekta YatraVer I..

Sir did you bothered to ask how a common Jawaan felt when the national flag was humiliated and they were not able to do anything about it. Did you take into account the feelings of the Jawaans who lost their frds while the Govt in Delhi and J&K were smoking the appease the separatists pipe and educated and so called liberal people are debating about log kya kahenge...

somnath wrote: Unfortunately high politics is not played in a fashion "you think" is right or wrong...Media, international reactions play defining roles...Why do these morons organise shipping trips to Gaza? Why did they organise stone pelting in such a large scale? the national flag will be hoisted in Srinagar today..But the tamasha of the yatra will mean sundry media outlets and governments will start pontificating on the dipute..You have jut handed another (brownie or otherwise) point to Pakistan...

And sir doesn't what the govt is doing right now sends a very dark message to Media and what will be the so called international reactions on how the Govt is handling all this right now. Doesn't it makes the current govt look like bending in front of separatists. And the fear of hurting the feelings of separatists is more than fear of hurting the sentiments of lots of law abiding Indians.

And aren't the international reactions suited to cater to the politics of international governments. When you say that Indian parties are doing just politics and nothing else then why do you give a damn about what international politics foreign govts will play in the form of international reactions. After all everyone is doing politics no?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 26 Jan 2011 08:26

menon s wrote:
Omar Abdullah
How come everyone on Twitter critical of my decision to stop the yatra are silent about Nitish Kumar & Sharad Yadav's opposition to yatra?
Cause you, know, Nitish and sharad are not pure Indians ( read Barlevi Hindu), only LKA, Sushma and Jaitley are pure Indians (wahabi Hindu). We will take them later, but primary task is oust you the unbeliever?

What do you mean by "We will take them later" ?

praksam · Post by **praksam** » 26 Jan 2011 08:27

menon s wrote:
Omar Abdullah
How come everyone on Twitter critical of my decision to stop the yatra are silent about Nitish Kumar & Sharad Yadav's opposition to yatra?
Cause you, know, Nitish and sharad are not pure Indians ( read Barlevi Hindu), only LKA, Sushma and Jaitley are pure Indians (wahabi Hindu). We will take them later, but primary task is oust you the unbeliever?

What have you been smoking??Are you even an Indian?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 26 Jan 2011 08:31

He must be from kerala, bengaluru

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 08:34

Sidhant wrote:Sir did you bothered to ask how a common Jawaan felt when the national flag was humiliated and they were not able to do anything about it. Did you take into account the feelings of the Jawaans who lost their frds while the Govt in Delhi and J&K were smoking the appease the separatists pipe and educated and so called liberal people are debating about log kya kahenge...

Well, its not about "log kya kahenge", its a lot more than that..NEvertheless, wonder what the "God's own party" did when terrorists gunned down jawans' own families in Kaluchak? Kept the Army firmly on the border, and even fired the general who took his Corps too close to it for (American) comfort!

Rahul M wrote:all omar had to do was to promise that the tricolour will go up at lal chowk. it is interesting that his refusal to do so which is supposedly leading to all this breaking up of peace is attracting no criticism.

Omar Abdullah mishandled it, its true to his form of incompetence...There could have been any number of creative administrative solutions..But that does not take away from the facts that:
1. BJP is doing this for perceived political dividends (the IE article today traces the motives)
2. A symbolic act like this has NO materil impact on the strategic/legal position on the ground..
3. Tactically/politically it creates some more issues for the govt to tackle, and some more (browine or otherwise) points to Pak/Hurriyat...

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 08:37

somnath wrote:Cut the personal bits out...

What personal bits? I am just pointing out the hilarious double standards in your post and the sanctimony about "millions and millions of flag loving patriots" having their lives affected whilst talking down to others on the board who are affected but are ok with it!

Boss you don't even live in India, you are quasi-elite, and what locus standi do you have to talk as if you are personally affected and greatly effected? Shades of Arundhati syndrome me thinks when she goes on & on about tribal causes, despite living a life of luxury elsewhere.

Leave the issues of what happens to flag loving patriots & having lives disrupted to us middle class Indians, pretty please - I can & will choose to put up with being "effected", bandhs etc as long as they are for the right causes!

Heck, following the logic of many of our intellectuals (Comrade Sen et al), moment we settle J&K, give KMs their just due (azaadi), open borders with our long lost brethren with slight differences (Pak), everything would be fine & the land would flow with milk & honey. Somehow though, aam admi types have not brought into this wonderful prescription & think more and more appeasement is the wrong thing to do, I wonder what they know, that our intellectuals dont!!

About "you" not being affected, sure...But ask the people who are "affected"! More importantly, ask the brass (police and military) what they think of these shenanigans on their operations..

Oh please, more sanctimony from your end & speaking on other peoples behalf, and people who don't have the time of the day for you when they really get down to it, I am afraid.

Remember the "Mumbai Navy guys use land inefficiently" discussion, Somnath & what some rtd guys made of your statements then & what you tried to run them down with. Can't run with the hares & chase with the hounds here - as and when it suits you, the Indian state is a ham handed oppressor (re: Turd shri Binayak Sen discussion ) & the services don't know what they are doing, lack "strategery" & the finer nuances of such....

And as and when it suits you, sage advice from your end: "listen to these guys, they know what they're talking about".

Oh give us a break. All you are doing is selectively quoting stuff as and when it matches your prejudices (and clearly you have many) & ignoring it otherwise. Its a typical case of cognitive dissonance & a quite human thing to do, but lets not cloak it up using some name dropping about who is "affected", when you don't fall into any of those categories, I'm afraid!

So -
a ) I don't need your advise on whom to ask as I am in India & I don't have to depend on the blogs of online retirees to get a feel of what people think or what they should think
b) Many citizens (including people from across the society) think what's happening with respect to the flag hoisting (and the KM fringe getting hoist upon their own petard) is a good thing
c) Many people have long been irritated with the manner in which these KMs (fringe or otherwise) have been dictating to the state about when and where a flag should be hoisted or what should be done.
d) The territory of India will have the flag hoisted everywhere on 26 January - deal with it, kind people

You heard what Gen Malik had to say, you read what B Raman had to say...You might want to read what Moloy Dhar had to say about Ekta YatraVer I..

More book knowledge & name dropping - seriously, is this impressive? Guys in the real world, in ordinary bandh struck, middle class India get out & get to feel the pulse far more than having to rely on contextually challenged interpretations of what online blogs etc report.

Unfortunately high politics is not played in a fashion "you think" is right or wrong

Dude, more pomposity. This is classic "harrummph", straight out of Yes Minister, or one of those old Brit serials that used to run on DD or was it DD1! I mean, you write stuff like this -Unfortunately high politics is not played in a fashion "you think" is right or wrong - wow, I mean, wow! then say "waaah" when I can't help but laugh!

I mean seriously, what do you know of high politics? When was the last time "you" were in high politics? But the way you talk/write, one would think the whole accumulated civilizational knowledge of India was resident within your sage advice & we're beholden on this board to follow it! And it causes a

because you follow up that with:

...Media, international reactions play defining roles...Why do these morons organise shipping trips to Gaza? Why did they organise stone pelting in such a large scale? the national flag will be hoisted in Srinagar today..But the tamasha of the yatra will mean sundry media outlets and governments will start pontificating on the dipute..You have jut handed another (brownie or otherwise) point to Pakistan...

ROTFL, comparing the problems of Israel - a tiny nation heavily dependent on external aid from a single power to survive, long surviving with the threat of existential conflict, vis a vis India & then attempting to draw parallels! Talk of making an elephant into a mouse. Ask Israel if it'd trade places with India, despite all of India's problems and it'd jump at the chance!!

And you were giving gyan on international politics! And now you are worried about Pak!

Who the heck cares what Pakistan yaps about the national flag being hoisted in Pakistan - they have kept yapping for a long time and will keep yapping, being what they are. Its to our (dis)credit that we attempt to meet them halfway, as versus attempting to consistently subvert their aims & push our message across

Given how concerned you are about even events of such little magnitude being "=" to brownie points for Pakistan & the west wagging its wise, powerful finger at India, what'd you do at times of real pressure & stress, say when conflict is imminent or it is already underway? Jeez, you'd literally run for the hills in terms of hyperbole & panic. Please grow a spine - this event is not the end of life as you know it.

Indians have the right to plant the flag wherever they want in India & we'll do it, end of story. If the west doesn't like it, media wants a fuss, then we should have enough tricks in our bag to handle that as well with a bunch of carrots and sticks (as applicable), and if the current Govt. hasn't thought of that, then that only goes to show how unprepared they are, chuck them out & put somebody in charge with more forethought & spine.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 26 Jan 2011 08:38

vina wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Just because I hail from TN, I have no right to stop some one from raising an Indian flag say in front of Central Station of Madras.
Sorry to prick your bubble. Actually your "right" is subject to reasonable restrictions. If you land up with 10,000 people and say I want to hoist the flag at Madras Central Station ,the local administration is well within their rights to regulate it, tell you no, you can't do it at Chennai Central and create a massive chaos in such a busy area and hassling all passengers and everyone, and direct you to the hockey stadium nearby to hold your function.

This happens in EVERY country, including USA/UK/ you name it. Apply for a march in US for any reason (there is one for some reason or another in NYC), there will be carefully defined routes, police protection, traffic control, the works.

I am not sure what you are alluding to there with the words 'your "right"'; I am saying as a aam citizen I do not have any right to stop others from hoisting the flag. I have not said it is my 'right' to hoist any flag. Yes the administration can cite 1008 reasons. If I do not have personal takleef, then it becomes purely administrative issue. That I get it, there is no bubble for you to prick.

So are you okay if 10 BJP prominent leaders hoisted the flag at Lal Chowk? There is going to be no chaos, just 5 television networks with their equipment, plus few police and whatever it takes to man a flag hoisting? At school all we needed was our principal and a student to climb up the pole. There will be more crowd at a movie theatre than in my scenario.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 26 Jan 2011 08:40

^ But indirectly the people of india being educated about the situation in J&K.

Before this ekta yatra happened many did not know pakistani flag was hoisted at Lal Chowk etc. Also i wonder why Geelani and Roy were not arrested or stopped for what they did etc.

Why 6 people were killed at Idgah maidan in bangaluru for hoisting national flag why not the separatist were fired or shelled while they were hoisting puki flag in our country.

Eye opener event at least

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 26 Jan 2011 08:43

I hear the CRPF is raising the tiranga at lal chowk today. Goods enough for me. The yatra has at least forced the OA admin to do the logical thing. Else after last september's paki flag hoisting, no other flag would have been hoisted in lal chowk only.

Added later:
As for the politcs allegedly behind it all, I have no doubt (and empirical evidence is also there, though small sample) that the politics of agitation and confrontation almost inevitably benefits the INC. So I was unhappy when BJP in K'taka organized a bandh against HR Bhardwaj and was unhappy when this yatra turned zero-sum-game. But that is how it is.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 26 Jan 2011 08:45

Karan M

Million and million of people are affected 'coz of the ekta yatra. Now they have come to know about double standards of this sick govt who cannot put behind behind bars the like of geelani and roy but can arrest ekta yatris. this govt can fire upon people hoisting nation flag in deep inside south but cannot take action against separatist hoisting puki flags. Millions are now also affected by this govt's cowardice and double standards

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 26 Jan 2011 08:46

V_Raman wrote:
CRamS wrote:hence TSP is silent, and by extension western media?
TSP is silent because it has no other option.

western media being silent says that this is an internal issue of india.

Yeah right. You have a mighty high opinion about Western Media. Can you talk a little bit about Aseemanda in the off-topic thread? I am curious to know what BJP is trying to hide.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Jan 2011 08:49

in 47 ,Sardar Patel asked Chacha" Jawahar do you want to keep Kashmir or not" and gave order to IA to help Maharaja to kick Poaks out of the abode of Rishi Kashyap. Chacha again did his Congressi think and stopped India Army advance and did not let them remove the Poak filth out of whole J&K. Now MMS and Chacha's leftover are trying to invite back the same forces which were kicked out in 47.
Question to all of RANDI group is same which Sardar asked Chacha in 47 . Do you want to compromise Indian territorial integrity ? Yes or NO . IF the currentRANDIan cannot cope with Poak then how are the gonna handle their Deeper and Taller fiend? And above all, in light of the reaction of RANDIans, is this the reason for keeping armed foces starved of equipments so they wont make preparation for actual war ? And what kind of transparency is there in the personal interests of so called Track2 walas and Iterlocutors handling this issue? There is rumor out there in india that millions of $ exchanged hands in the GUlf.

Sidhant · Post by **Sidhant** » 26 Jan 2011 08:51

somnath wrote:
Sidhant wrote:Sir did you bothered to ask how a common Jawaan felt when the national flag was humiliated and they were not able to do anything about it. Did you take into account the feelings of the Jawaans who lost their frds while the Govt in Delhi and J&K were smoking the appease the separatists pipe and educated and so called liberal people are debating about log kya kahenge...
Well, its not about "log kya kahenge", its a lot more than that..NEvertheless, wonder what the "God's own party" did when terrorists gunned down jawans' own families in Kaluchak? Kept the Army firmly on the border, and even fired the general who took his Corps too close to it for (American) comfort!

This was in response to your quotes of what Gen Malik, B Raman and all has to say a, I pooch a simple questions what those Jawaans has to say. Anyways, the so called "Gods own party" is trying to do what our secular and Nationalist govts(both state and center) should have been doing. What is wrong in that. You haven't answered my other questions regarding your media reactions and politics rhetoric

Somnath wrote: 2. A symbolic act like this has NO materil impact on the strategic/legal position on the ground..

Wrong, it has brought the GOIs non transparent back channel negotiations to the fore front and has effectively made it difficult for GOI to give more than what is essentially required

.

Somnath wrote: 3. Tactically/politically it creates some more issues for the govt to tackle, and some more (browine or otherwise) points to Pak/Hurriyat...

Correct Tactically/politically it creates more issues for govt to do a sellout and provides brownie (although bitter brownie

) points to Pak/Hurrirats that despite of their threats the tricolor was unfurled at the lal chowk

.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 08:57

somnath wrote:Well, its not about "log kya kahenge", its a lot more than that..NEvertheless, wonder what the "God's own party" did when terrorists gunned down jawans' own families in Kaluchak? Kept the Army firmly on the border, and even fired the general who took his Corps too close to it for (American) comfort!

And you claim to be "well informed" vis a vis your sage advice on telling people to go to blogs and asking people to read what this guy said, that guy said? Lol, says it all really. Here is a bit of information for you & all this was fairly public at the time btw, for people in India.

"Gods own party"'s (per you, and since apparently you don't believe in that party, you apparently don't believe in God, brilliant self goal unless you are a declared atheist) designated Christian Def Min (ooops! how was that possible!), turned a blind eye with full acceptance of GOP (what meanies) to the Indian Army extracting its due & then some, from the PA using a variety of means, many of which were none too subtle, including fire assaults which were absolutely brutal. For the rest please do read the internetz.

1. BJP is doing this for perceived political dividends (the IE article today traces the motives)

IE, the paragon of virtue & which is absolutely unbiased, so they must and should be true.

2. A symbolic act like this has NO materil impact on the strategic/legal position on the ground..

Sure, and you know this...how? Ok, because you say so. Settles that.

3. Tactically/politically it creates some more issues for the govt to tackle, and some more (browine or otherwise) points to Pak/Hurriyat...

Poor Govt. - has to deal with flag hoisting on its own soil. The things it has to put up with it..

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 26 Jan 2011 09:00

SwamyG wrote: Yeah right. You have a mighty high opinion about Western Media. Can you talk a little bit about Aseemanda in the off-topic thread? I am curious to know what BJP is trying to hide.

my conclusions are not a statement on how the western media is or on what TSP is actually doing. but on how it will be perceived by a KM. in all this, the aam KM will feel that his fate is now entirely tied with india.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 09:01

Karan M wrote:What personal bits? I am just pointing out the hilarious double standards in your post and the sanctimony about "millions and millions of flag loving patriots" having their lives affected whilst talking down to others on the board who are affected but are ok with it!

I have my location on my profile (unlike many people on this group) because I didnt think it was a big deal..But that is completely irrelevant to a discussion - we are not discussing personal "social positions" here...As far as lives being affected is concerned, spare me the hypocrisy..usually urban India isnt touched..But when Shiv Sena goes on its "nationalistic" tirades in Mumbai, you should ask the Mumbaikars(as I have been for many years), or when CPM/Mamta does the ideological things in Cal (as I have been for many years as well)..Or the residents of Hubli during the last "nationalist" flag waving...

Karan M wrote:All you are doing is selectively quoting stuff as and when it matches your prejudices (and clearly you have many) & ignoring it otherwise.

Non sequitor..Given the security situation in Kashmir, professional advice of those who are in charge of the security has to be given weightage..You might argue that the political gain outweigh mundane security concerns (and it is a valid line of reasoning), but in this case the political gains are far from clear...Barring for the Congress, which gets a respite from scams, or the Hurriyat, that gets some more oxygen of publicity, or for the BJP, which presumably gets some more hindu votes!

Guys in the real world, in ordinary bandh struck, middle class India get out & get to feel the pulse far more than having to rely on contextually challenged interpretations of what online blogs etc report

so you got faxes/emails from the entire middle class of India telling you that?

I mean seriously, what do you know of high politics? When was the last time "you" were in high politics?

I could ask the same question of you as well, no? Since when did YOU have the "pulse" of the middle class? Or the "nationalists"? What makes YOU a representative sample?

Karan M wrote:Please grow a spine - this event is not the end of life as you know it.

this isnt..But this didnt HAVE to be even a footnote..Irrelevance is the biggest (political) poison of any insurgency....the military battle in Kashmir has been largely won, even if not fully...the political battle has not been, probably wont be for some time..But sheer irrelevance will get more and more of the separatists to either fade away or join the mainstream...Its already happening in some shapes and forms, incipiently..giving such free oxygen from time to time only hlep the insurgency keep breathing...

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 26 Jan 2011 09:03

V_Raman wrote:
SwamyG wrote: Yeah right. You have a mighty high opinion about Western Media. Can you talk a little bit about Aseemanda in the off-topic thread? I am curious to know what BJP is trying to hide.
my conclusions are not a statement on how the western media is or on what TSP is actually doing. but on how it will be perceived by a KM. in all this, the aam KM will feel that his fate is now entirely tied with india.

what is this thekedaari of KMs which people seem to have taken upon them?

is this thekedaari greater than Indian thekedaari?

Dont worry folks for those KMs who are offended by flying our national flag, Pakistan has already taken the thekedaari.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Jan 2011 09:05

RamaY wrote:He must be from kerala, bengaluru

Mentally, if not physically, judging from his posts. May Shri Padgaonkar etc be informed they have one more candidate ready for interlocutor-ship, paid for using Indian funds (yippee!!).

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 26 Jan 2011 09:09

we have article 370 dont we?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Jan 2011 09:09

Guys today is 61st Republic Day for India. Lets not get divided today.
So request a one day moratarium in this thread.

Thanks,

ramana

PS: I can lock it but want to see who will not heed this appeal.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 09:10

Karan M wrote:turned a blind eye with full acceptance of GOP (what meanies) to the Indian Army extracting its due & then some, from the PA using a variety of means, many of which were none too subtle, including fire assaults which were absolutely brutal. For the rest please do read the internetz.

So a couple of cross-border raids is "due and some more" of a mobilisation caued by an atack on Parliament, one that cost us 500+ personnel dead, and a sneak attack on families!

Stretching that logic, need a flag to be hoisted - one hoisted a few hundred metres away in Bakshi stadium should suffice, no?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Jan 2011 09:11

ramana wrote:Guys today is 61st Republic Day for India. Lets not get divided today.
So request a one day moratarium in this thread.
.

that right..Happy Republic Day!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Jan 2011 09:17

somnath wrote:
Rahul M wrote:all omar had to do was to promise that the tricolour will go up at lal chowk. it is interesting that his refusal to do so which is supposedly leading to all this breaking up of peace is attracting no criticism.
Omar Abdullah mishandled it, its true to his form of incompetence...There could have been any number of creative administrative solutions..But that does not take away from the facts that:
1. BJP is doing this for perceived political dividends (the IE article today traces the motives)
that the BJP may be gaining political dividend is more important to you (and people who think like you) than the assault on Indian nationhood in srinagar speaks volumes of the misplaced priorities.
you would probably think nothing of carving up the country piece by piece if it prevents the bjp from getting a few votes. for once can't you people put your political loyalties away and do what is right for the country ? criticise the bjp or whatever party all you want AFTER you ensure that lal chowk doesn't see a 2010 redux.

2. A symbolic act like this has NO materil impact on the strategic/legal position on the ground..

of course, the flag is a piece of cloth and India is a fictional country built by the british.
but wait, why did our leaders(all congressis as well) create and approve the flag code ? surely the symbolism has some meaning, whether you are up to admitting it is a different issue.