Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 15 Dec 2016

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 07 Aug 2019 12:22

Thanks for patiently answering my questions. To summarize,

MKI is our aircraft of choice for defensive patrols
King of WVR
Strategic with ALCM capability

It is short on BVR and precision strike - this is holding it back from many of the offensive missions of IAF. Our original unupgraded M2K, acquired much before MKI, is better than MKI in the precison strike area.

MKI really needs a MLU to bring it to the new world and make it much more potent. We need Rafale due to this gap while we wait for a good enough MLU package!

This is how I am understanding it.

@VikramS - my daughter is indeed going to college this year

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Aug 2019 12:26

Correction, M-2000 being much smaller and with a much smaller radar signature is probably better for surprise strike. Like Gulf war 1, before the F-15's went in the F-117 and Apache has to attack the radars.

M-2000 being good does not make Su 30 MKI any less

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 07 Aug 2019 13:05

bhai log..u even dont know 10% of what a SU30 can do if it gets angry..so calm down. The feb incident was localised ..if the ballon goes up Su30 will be the king.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 07 Aug 2019 20:24

Why does IAF use M2K for strike? Was it the threat perception and fast egress that made M2K their weapon of choice. Where does that put the Jaguars? If IAF will not use them for such roles, is there an operational role that the jags can still perform? Or should they be phased out?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 07 Aug 2019 22:39

Cybaru wrote:Probably due to choice of munitions?

Exactly. It was the Crystal Maze that allowed for stand off bombing which led to the Mirage-2000 being the preferred choice. The platform has the range and endurance to carry out the strike as well. and the upgraded Mirage-2000I with the MICA EM and IR is a dangerous opponent for any fighter.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 07 Aug 2019 22:47

what we should not forget is that you dont take your best weapon with the start. May be IAF didnt want to expose its best and the tactics with it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Aug 2019 22:56

Mirages A2G weaponry was much better during Kargil times than the MKIs. It is only now that MKI is getting a good complement of good guided A2G weaponry.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2019 00:29

A search on this forum itself will find that Spice 2K was integrated with SU-30MKI also.
Around 2017.

Balakot was special target and am tired of saying this to folks.
The SPICE 2K used is new version. So they wanted the M2K upgrades.
To ensure definite hit.
In fact one of the non upgrade M2K saw a difference in reading and did not release its payload.
All this public knowledge.

Su-30MKIs will be upgraded.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 08 Aug 2019 03:29

No wonder IAF wants a M2K++ in MWF

With russia so much behind in Radar/Weapons- will we ever get the MKI to be as good as even our MWF?

souravB · Post by **souravB** » 08 Aug 2019 03:45

V_Raman wrote:No wonder IAF wants a M2K++ in MWF

With russia so much behind in Radar/Weapons- will we ever get the MKI to be as good as even our MWF?

Yes. We can put a version of Uttam, UEWS and our own MC during the upgrade to SS program and we can then add any (barring US) weapon on MKIs. But the point is precision bombing with MKI is an added benefit and not it's primary role. It is built for air dominance.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 08 Aug 2019 04:04

We need our own equipment to make it better - got it. I hear that the MKI engines cant generate enough power for AESA. Is that true? Will it need an engine upgrade?

Will the upgrade cost be super high - like north of 50 mil including engine upgrades, all these equipment, fees to russia, etc. ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Aug 2019 04:29

Remember the report about the lack of hardened shelters for MKIs in bases closer to the border, work approved yet to fructify, why other aircraft were used to intercept the PAF first.This is supposedly being redressed after the last spat.We also need extra tankers to be able to keep more numbers of long- legged birds like the MKIs in the air for longer periods too . This requirement is languishing somewhere in the cobwebbed corridors of the MOD as the Airbus option which the IAF was keen on was earlier rejected on cost, a big difference between the A-330 and the upgraded IL-78.The insistance upon only a twin-engined aircraft , which would rule out the upgraded 78s, has led to the impasse. A hard call for the DM given the current eco state of the nation.

Once the Rafales start entering service from later this year, the PAF's unhappiness will increase further if as is being touted, the LR Meteor BVR AAM will come with it.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 08 Aug 2019 04:54

Vivek K wrote:Why does IAF use M2K for strike? Was it the threat perception and fast egress that made M2K their weapon of choice. Where does that put the Jaguars? If IAF will not use them for such roles, is there an operational role that the jags can still perform? Or should they be phased out?

Jags are being moved more and more towards the ability to deliver standoff weapons. They are designed for and suited to low level operations with escorts, which are becoming dangerous as AD networks become more capable of detecting low flying aircraft. But they're underpowered for medium to high altitude missions, even though the IAF is moving towards such missions using LGBs and as more indigenous PGMs get inducted, you'll see them on the Jaguar fleet.

the IAF cannot replace 100+ Jags in a decade. They offer a backup second line of strikers that can be effective when escorted or when air superiority of some sort is achieved. So they'll last till the MWF comes around in numbers and can start replacing them.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Aug 2019 07:08

V_Raman wrote:No wonder IAF wants a M2K++ in MWF

With russia so much behind in Radar/Weapons- will we ever get the MKI to be as good as even our MWF?

I am not sure you have a clear idea of whats in the MKI.
Still the largest ranged radar in AF service. SAP 518 is a very powerful jammer, ok for A2A (problem only when a.c is heavily loaded).
8 T warload
Huge weapons diversity: Astra, R77, R73E, R27 ET/ER, KH-31 P/A, KAB-500/1500, Kh-59, Brahmos, Griffin, now SPICE and soon ASRAAM and probably Derby variants as well, desi munitions. Plus plethora of dumb bombs
RWR has been fixed with a change, a Digital RWR on the way
7 MFDs, 2 pilots - sensor overload mitigated
Datalinks with encrypted radios

In short, remains a very potent aircraft, which is why both days, Su-30s and Mirage 2000s led the attacks. Mirage 2000s for strike, Su-30s to divert PAF BARCAP and second day, 2 Su-30s held off 11 Vipers.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 08 Aug 2019 07:08

manjgu wrote:bhai log..u even dont know 10% of what a SU30 can do if it gets angry..so calm down. The feb incident was localised ..if the ballon goes up Su30 will be the king.

Well said.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 08 Aug 2019 08:48

The MKI is an air dominance/superiority platform, as all iaf pilots keep repeating. Strike will be delegated to the m2k and mkis as needed based on requirement and availability. Turning mwf into a bomb truck with a dca capability seems to be the idea with enough oca ability with its aesa & astra/sfdr plans. So let's not pooh pooh the mki..

As for Jags, they're getting an aesa and other goodies with the Darin 3 upgrade. Apart from MKIs, SAAW and hsld integration is going on in the Jags. So iaf isn't ignoring them.

mody · Post by **mody** » 08 Aug 2019 16:00

The Su-30MKI-MK3 or the final iteration entered service after 2004. I had visited Lohegaon AFB in March 2005 and Russian technicians were still working on the final tranche version of MKI's. All the MKI's delivered prior to that, were later upgraded to the final version. Hence, the current plane is not quite 20 years old. However, the specs were frozen 20 years ago.
The only problem is that the Russian EW suite for the MKI is no good. It was either found to be too heavy, restricting the performance of the aircraft and maybe also found to be not as good, as western suites that we have experience with, with the M2K.
The other problem is the performance of the R77 BVR missiles. The initial batches had a big shortfall in performance. Reports suggest that the problems have been taken care of, however, I am not fully convinced. Maybe that's one of the reasons IAF would still prefer to use the R27 with the MKI. Remember that initially when the MKI was inducted, it was supposed to carry only the R-77 and R-73s. The R-27 was primarily used by Mig-29. The R-77 was later ported to the BISON and also Mig-29s. However, the Migs mostly still carried the R-27. Only after the recent upgrade, they have started carrying the R-77 as well. The R-27 has a longer range, plus given the power and range of the BARS radar, the MKI can stay out of range of the enemy aircraft and still continue to guide multiple R-27s to their target. Jamming the BARS radar is very difficult. Plus the IAF has perfected and loves the combo of first firing the R-27 SARH followed by R-27T or R-73E as a follow on shot against incoming enemy aircrafts. The kill probability is near 100%.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Aug 2019 17:38

Karan M wrote:
manjgu wrote:bhai log..u even dont know 10% of what a SU30 can do if it gets angry..so calm down. The feb incident was localised ..if the ballon goes up Su30 will be the king.
Well said.

Karan or other gurus, if necessary, will the brand new Rafales be used in combat as early as year end? Or will the IAF wait for few years till pilots get fully acquainted with the jet before they are actually used in combat?

Asking this because, Israelis used newly arrived F-16s for their Osirak operation, without fully 'understanding' the jets as they arrived only sometime before.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Aug 2019 17:58

^^^
While possible in a limited scope, AFAIK it usually takes around 3-5 years for a squadron to reach FOC. Many pieces are required: development of standard operating procedures, tactics development (air-to-air and air-to-surface with various weapons), base infrastructure setup, training of pilots and technicians, build up of airframes, spare parts and weapons, and so on ... All of these take time.

Once you see its full participation in major exercises, then you know it is ready.

In any case, can’t compare with Israeli and American example. They are tied together at the hips. We don’t know the level of assistance the USAF provided. They could have run most of show.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Aug 2019 18:12

^^does this mean tejas will see action sooner than katto??.. as it has been used in multiple exercises

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 08 Aug 2019 18:17

Karthik S wrote:Karan or other gurus, if necessary, will the brand new Rafales be used in combat as early as year end? Or will the IAF wait for few years till pilots get fully acquainted with the jet before they are actually used in combat?

No guru but from memory the VayuSena did not use the -30Ks during Op Safed Sagar.
So take from that what you will.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Aug 2019 18:34

ArjunPandit wrote:^^does this mean tejas will see action sooner than katto??.. as it has been used in multiple exercises

What the participation in exercises show is the level of operational readiness. In those exercises, Tejas has been deployed far from its home bases and executed combat operations as it would if a real war were to break out. It attained high serviceability rates and weapons delivery accuracy. I am sure IAF decision makers and planners have high confidence in using Tejas if the right situation arose.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 08 Aug 2019 19:46

Twitter is saying that JF17 shot down. Fake?
https://twitter.com/xerxes64697897/stat ... 19809?s=21

Some handles say that PAF visited Srinagar today?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Aug 2019 20:05

srai wrote:^^^
While possible in a limited scope, AFAIK it usually takes around 3-5 years for a squadron to reach FOC. Many pieces are required: development of standard operating procedures, tactics development (air-to-air and air-to-surface with various weapons), base infrastructure setup, training of pilots and technicians, build up of airframes, spare parts and weapons, and so on ... All of these take time.

Once you see its full participation in major exercises, then you know it is ready.

In any case, can’t compare with Israeli and American example. They are tied together at the hips. We don’t know the level of assistance the USAF provided. They could have run most of show.

Thanks, that's what I thought, need to give time to pilots and technicians. BTW, Israel and US may be tied at hips, but at the end of the day it was Israeli pilots who flew 1000 miles to bomb Iraq in a jet they didn't have much experience.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 08 Aug 2019 21:31

AdityaM wrote:Twitter is saying that JF17 shot down. Fake?
https://twitter.com/xerxes64697897/stat ... 19809?s=21

Some handles say that PAF visited Srinagar today?

Seems fake to me. An incident like this would have been splashed all over the place.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Aug 2019 22:11

Or not, for fear of kendostyx

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 09 Aug 2019 02:44

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Well said.
Karan or other gurus, if necessary, will the brand new Rafales be used in combat as early as year end? Or will the IAF wait for few years till pilots get fully acquainted with the jet before they are actually used in combat?

Asking this because, Israelis used newly arrived F-16s for their Osirak operation, without fully 'understanding' the jets as they arrived only sometime before.

The first Rafale will be handed over to the IAF in France, this September. Even if it is ferried over immediately, No.17 Squadron 'Golden Arrows' will take at least 1 year to achieve Initial Operational Capability. Push comes to shove, some of the most senior pilots could definitely fly the few Rafale jets that No.17 will have, but its full set of capabilities is unlikely to be perfected by the average squadron pilot for a couple of years or more.

Take the No.45 Squadron as an example. They have only received the last of their single seater Tejas Mk1 this March 2019. Pilot strength will be growing, with a mix of experienced and rookie pilots. For the full squadron to have day and night qualified Tejas pilots will take a while, although they definitely could forward deploy with a few senior pilots and 6-8 jets.

Sabyasachi · Post by **Sabyasachi** » 09 Aug 2019 08:48

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/capture ... topstories

Wing Commander Abhinandan, Who Was Captured By Pak, Nears Return To Duty

Rather saying the 'Who shot down F-16' Vishnu Som has chosen a different headline. :Slow Claps:

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 09 Aug 2019 11:23

So a question from me on the Gajraj:
Why do many/most of our Il-76MDs have the Tail Gunners turret while some others do not?
I understand the utility of the same in the Il-78MKI but should we not get rid of the same on the MDs?
Here is the one without the Turret/Enclosure, deployed to KA to aid the flood relief efforts.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 09 Aug 2019 11:59

manjgu wrote:bhai log..u even dont know 10% of what a SU30 can do if it gets angry..so calm down. The feb incident was localised ..if the ballon goes up Su30 will be the king.

I really want to know what happens when SU30 gets angry! Wht tandaav can it cause?

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 09 Aug 2019 12:04

MeshaVishwas wrote:So a question from me on the Gajraj:
Why do many/most of our Il-76MDs have the Tail Gunners turret while some others do not?
I understand the utility of the same in the Il-78MKI but should we not get rid of the same on the MDs?
Here is the one without the Turret/Enclosure, deployed to KA to aid the flood relief efforts.

Please post pics of the ones with a turret. All of them going through long term service have had their turrets removed.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 09 Aug 2019 12:47

Khalsa wrote:
Please post pics of the ones with a turret. All of them going through long term service have had their turrets removed.

Got it thanks.
All of the saved images saved in my Computer are mostly old.

Another one from LIMA 2019:

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 09 Aug 2019 13:32

Suspension of Business Dealings with Messrs Pilatus Aircraft Ltd

https://mod.gov.in/news

https://mod.gov.in/sites/default/files/Subus.pdf

nits · Post by **nits** » 09 Aug 2019 14:17

Not sure if this is OT here:

IAF has launched a Mobile Game called - "IAF - A Cut above". Its really nice and scenarios mentioned are really nice with high end graphics.

do try it out

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 10 Aug 2019 01:37

mody wrote:The only problem is that the Russian EW suite for the MKI is no good. It was either found to be too heavy, restricting the performance of the aircraft and maybe also found to be not as good, as western suites that we have experience with, with the M2K.

Is this chai-wallah info or from discussions on the net? If the latter, incorrect. The SAP-518 has weight issues which come into play, when only real heavy payload is carried (not usual A2A loads).

Plus the IAF has perfected and loves the combo of first firing the R-27 SARH followed by R-27T or R-73E as a follow on shot against incoming enemy aircrafts. The kill probability is near 100%.

Source?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 10 Aug 2019 18:54

IAF game page says it will add Tejas and bison to multiplayer.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 10 Aug 2019 20:58

1) is the huge loiter time/range of Su30. this is a BIG plus if the ballon goes up. the Pakistan lacks depth and i believe its air bases will be under lot of stress in a war situation...similarly indian bases close to border will be under stress. Ability to take off from rear bases and be in the fight is a big plus. PAF has no such luxury. 2) if its opens its war frequencies..with its capabilities its like a mini awacs. u will not always get AWACS to direct ops in a real situation, then this capability is v useful 3) on Feb 27, PAF fired 5 AMRAAMS and ran,but in real war they will not have this luxury. they will have to stay in the fight for posing real danger to Su30 where the range of Su30 radars will be crucial. The range of AMRAAMs is not such a big factor as people tend to think. its about relative goemetry, energy, pilotage of adversaries. 4) the loadout of the SU is phenomenal,giving it the ability to carry more missiles, bombs etc which is v useful in a real war situation coupled with loiter time, it can switch from one area to another and stay in the fight. 5) the electronics on it plus the 2 man crew is a big plus. 6) soon u will hear the story of avenger1 who though outnumbered held PAF at bay. His story will come out soon. PAF is scared of SU30 big time.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 10 Aug 2019 23:59

manjgu wrote:1) is the huge loiter time/range of Su30. this is a BIG plus if the ballon goes up. the Pakistan lacks depth and i believe its air bases will be under lot of stress in a war situation...similarly indian bases close to border will be under stress. Ability to take off from rear bases and be in the fight is a big plus. PAF has no such luxury. 2) if its opens its war frequencies..with its capabilities its like a mini awacs. u will not always get AWACS to direct ops in a real situation, then this capability is v useful 3) on Feb 27, PAF fired 5 AMRAAMS and ran,but in real war they will not have this luxury. they will have to stay in the fight for posing real danger to Su30 where the range of Su30 radars will be crucial. The range of AMRAAMs is not such a big factor as people tend to think. its about relative goemetry, energy, pilotage of adversaries. 4) the loadout of the SU is phenomenal,giving it the ability to carry more missiles, bombs etc which is v useful in a real war situation coupled with loiter time, it can switch from one area to another and stay in the fight. 5) the electronics on it plus the 2 man crew is a big plus. 6) soon u will hear the story of avenger1 who though outnumbered held PAF at bay. His story will come out soon. PAF is scared of SU30 big time.

Enlightening. Thanks.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 11 Aug 2019 01:44

Sabyasachi wrote:https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/capture ... topstories

Wing Commander Abhinandan, Who Was Captured By Pak, Nears Return To Duty

Rather saying the 'Who shot down F-16' Vishnu Som has chosen a different headline. :Slow Claps:

I just visited their website after a long time and downloaded my choice of gallies. Mo*ons.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 11 Aug 2019 05:25

Did Abhi's Mig21 have the israeli jamming pod?

Are the Amrams useless if the IAF has the jamming pod?