Indian Education System

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UlanBatori
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by UlanBatori »

sum wrote:
“Alumni from the five IITs together accounted for 122 computer science faculty in the top 50 American universities, second only to Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the top contributor with 127 faculty members” – Brown University study.
Is this something we should be happy about or feel bad for loosing all these guys to the US after having educated them here?
Mixed feelings onlee
Brigade Road in B'looru used to be so peaceful in the 1970s. A few retired Army types and their pretty daughters out for a stroll. Nice restaurants. A few starving beggars. Typical India of the past 200 years. Would still be that way but for the evil IIT grads and their connections to the evil Americans! :(( :(( A small airport by the side of the air force runway on Airport Road with the occasional HS-748 coming for a landing, and not even a decent pakistan to be found. With rickshaws pulled by starving Karnataka Skilled Workers waiting to whisk the passengers at 5 mph into Downtown B'looru, vs. the 0.1 mph today. Past the aromatic peanut-stands of Karnataka Entrepreneurs at their finest.

Oh! Sorry! The HS-748 had too many IIT grads who worked on it. Scratch that! A DC-3, maybe.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SaiK »

dakota!
Amber G.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Amber G. »

Anyone attending Santa Clara event (IIT Global Leadership conference)..

FYI: Check out:http://www.iit-2015.org/
(There are some ads in local news papers)

There is an event on Thursday ..Women’s Day – IIT GLC 2015
(See details in the website )

List of speakers <click> is impressive. It includes:
David Gross (Physics Nobel), Elizabeth Holmes (Theranos), Salman Khan, Vinod Khosla, Chambers (Cisco) among others.

Schedule and list of speakers is here..
http://www.iit-2015.org/schedule/

Also from an email.. (Cut and paste)

Happens to be enough sponsorships to subsidize the original registration price you paid... so now .. The price for the 2 day conference without the Friday Banquet + Entertainment is now reduced to $175, and the Saturday only price including Dinner and Entertainment is now reduced to $125.

Also, please welcome your spouses and friends to join on Friday and Saturday given the fantastic program we have on both days and that we are happy to give Baby Sitting facilities as well. We have published the codes GLCBANG for the 2 day conference and GLCBANG1 for Saturday only on our website http://www.iitglc.org to accommodate the above prices. The last conference we have had in the Bay Area was in 2007, 8 years ago! The next one may be 202X. They really cannot afford to miss this one!


Thank you for your pride of ownership of the IIT brand.

Hope to see some of you at the Conference.. (yours truly will be there)..
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

http://www.hindustantimes.com/comment/r ... 71380.aspx
And many of these pronouncements have harmed the image of the BJP government, in whose name it often claims to speak. The latest salvo is against some of the IITs and IIMs by the RSS mouthpiece, the Organiser. It says that these institutions are promoting an anti-Indian and anti-Hindu sentiment.

It singled out eminent nuclear scientist Anil Kakodkar for criticising the HRD ministry on certain issues. It then bizarrely asks why Mr Kakodkar did not criticise the Kiss of Love movement by IIT Mumbai students even as he accused Union HRD minister Smriti Irani of recruiting directors to the IITs casually.

The other pieces of evidence of anti-national and anti-Hindu activity consist of the introduction of non-vegetarian food in IIT Roorkee’s canteen and the apparent low morals of the faculties in IITs, which were misguiding students.

The IITs and IIMs are by all accounts India’s calling cards in educational excellence. Scientists and other top academics have every right to question the actions of the ministry, but this in no way amounts to any attempt to undermine these institutions.

It beggars belief that an institution of learning should have to prove its Hindu credentials. The government should step in and tell the RSS to stay out of these institutions and stop damaging the morale of the faculty and student.
SaiK
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SaiK »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 313138.cms
Image

Rise in women graduates almost double that of men in a decade
chaanakya
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

IT Roorkee will readmit 71 expelled students if they accept three conditions
IIT Roorkee has decided to grant conditional readmission to all 71 students who were expelled by the premier institute for underperformance last month.

The decision to grant readmission to the expelled students with some stringent pre-conditions was taken last night by the institute’s senate, the Dean of Students Welfare D K Nauriyal said over phone from Roorkee.

“Taking a lenient view, the senate after considering all aspects of the situation especially the future of the students took the decision,” the Dean said.

The conditions for readmission put forward by the Senate include starting afresh from the first semester, scoring at least five Cumulative Grade Points Average (CGPA) or more in both first and second semester exams, not failing in any of the subjects and 75 per cent attendance in all subjects, Nauriyal added.


The relief comes to students nearly a month after their expulsion from the institute during which some of them had approached the Uttarakhand High Court for a reprieve but to no avail
member_28108
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_28108 »

chaanakya wrote:IT Roorkee will readmit 71 expelled students if they accept three conditions
IIT Roorkee has decided to grant conditional readmission to all 71 students who were expelled by the premier institute for underperformance last month.

The decision to grant readmission to the expelled students with some stringent pre-conditions was taken last night by the institute’s senate, the Dean of Students Welfare D K Nauriyal said over phone from Roorkee.

“Taking a lenient view, the senate after considering all aspects of the situation especially the future of the students took the decision,” the Dean said.

The conditions for readmission put forward by the Senate include starting afresh from the first semester, scoring at least five Cumulative Grade Points Average (CGPA) or more in both first and second semester exams, not failing in any of the subjects and 75 per cent attendance in all subjects, Nauriyal added.


The relief comes to students nearly a month after their expulsion from the institute during which some of them had approached the Uttarakhand High Court for a reprieve but to no avail
Expect that there will be really no improvement. if they are unable to get a CGPA of 5 well you cannot expect sudden miracles to happen.
Sachin
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Sachin »

x-posted from Nukkad (with reference of Museums also being motivators to young people)
I had visited the Vishweshariah Museum in mid 1980s, and it was much more better. Models actually worked, and it could motivate a young kid to focus on science. And at that time the city (and Karnataka as a state) also I feel had much more tourist friendly destinations out there. Had visited the museum six years back, and it was really in a poor shape. The models were all ill-maintained, and in non working condition. No proper guides to share the knowledge.

To add on, I don't think we as a country have shown interest in maintaining its history or any sort of achievement. And this may add to the overall pessimism the society has. I have visited the HAL Museum in Bangalore, and it is not much better than the Vishweshariah museum. They have a whole of lot of old photographs and some static models kept in the outside. People can come, read what ever is written next to the artefacts and go on. The Railway Museum at Mysore is no different. They have some good old equipments, locos and coaches kept out there, but nobody is interested in motivating people to know more about the railways. I had also visited the Naval Aviation Museum near Vasco De Gama, Goa. That is even worse. Very poorly maintained relics of aircrafts, no working models on any thing. I don't know if any one would want to join IN, if they visited this museum first. The Missile Boat museum at Karwar was much better.

I compare this with UK, where they have made an industry out of all these museums. Pretty much any subject related to the country has a museum. And they have got much better guides (or automated systems etc.), which kind of helps people understand and appreciate the stuff.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

SaiK wrote:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 313138.cms
Image

Rise in women graduates almost double that of men in a decade
Saik, You shoul post this in nukkad. There was a long discussion a while ago on how women are unsuited to STEM. Much truth telling as it were.

–----------------------

bade saar,

Whats the story behind vera rubin not getting the nobel. If saul perlmutter can get it for dark energy she should have got it for dark matter. No!
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

prasannasimha wrote:
Expect that there will be really no improvement. if they are unable to get a CGPA of 5 well you cannot expect sudden miracles to happen.
IIT Roorkee says we are background-blind, students say look at us

praablam is either with the teachers or with the medium. As I suspected most of these students belong to Uber Privileged class.
However IIT should not have issues in teaching in Hindi or any other Indian language. Afterall a bridge design by civil engineer can be done in any language. It would still remain a bridge design.
Sitting outside a shack near Jawahar Bhawan, one of the boys’ hostels at the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) Roorkee, a group of civil engineering students discuss what they call the “unfairness” of the coursework and the grading system, how it’s tilted against “students like us from reserved categories and from Hindi-medium schools”.

Earlier this month, IIT-Roorkee had expelled 72 students for not meeting the required minimum passing grades: a Cumulative Grade Point Average (CGPA) of at least 5 and minimum credits of 22 (these students have since been taken back on probation, having got a second chance). The students outside Jawahar Bhawan were not on the list of 72 but they say they could well have been — they scraped past the CGPA limit to make it to their second year.

An investigation by The Indian Express shows that 90 per cent of the IIT-Roorkee students who were expelled were from reserved categories (SC, ST and OBC)
and scored average to high ranks in their respective categories in the 2014 IIT-JEE (Advanced). Once on campus, however, several factors pull them back, prominent among them a lack of fluency in English.

“English is our biggest problem,”
says a 17-year-old second-year civil engineering student from Rajasthan. Fourteen from his department were expelled. “We are from Hindi-medium schools, went to coaching institutes in places like Kota, where we chose Hindi as the medium of instruction, and took our JEE in Hindi. Then we come to the campus and realise it’s all high-level English — the books are all by American authors and the professors only speak English. We see students around us talking, asking questions in English and we can do none of that. Usi se confidence khatam. Tabhi se hum peeche rah jate hain (That kills our confidence and we start slipping),” says the student who scored a CGPA of just above 5.

The IIT says it has its own systems to deal with these problems — language proficiency classes at the time of orientation and special mentoring programmes (started three months ago). “We have been holding tutorial classes over the weekend where students who need help are taught by senior students. So if there are issues of authority and students lack the confidence to talk to professors, they won’t have that trouble with fellow-students,” said Dean of Students Welfare D K Nauriyal.

But unlike many of the older IITs, these hand-holding exercises are relatively new in IIT-Roorkee. Besides, students say these “systems” usually don’t work on the ground. “It’s only in March that we were introduced to the mentors. By then, we just had a month to go for the exams. Besides, seniors have little time for us. They have their own classes to attend. How can they expel students without giving their own system enough time?”

“We do what we can but ultimately, there’s little we can do if the student doesn’t come to us,” says Nauriyal. “Besides, once the students enter the campus, for us, they are all the same — irrespective of their backgrounds or whether you are from the reserved quota or not. The bar has been set (at CGPA 5 and minimum credits of 22) and that can’t be lowered,” says IIT-Roorkee Registrar Prashant Garg.

There are separate rank lists in the IIT-JEE (Advanced), among them a common merit list, an SC list, an ST list and an OBC list. To get into the common merit list in the 2014 version of the JEE, candidates from these categories had to secure a minimum of 35 per cent of the aggregate and 10 per cent in each paper. The last SC candidate in the common merit list was 432. Which means, 1,597 of the 2,029 SC candidates who got into one of the IITs didn’t make it to the common merit list or scored less than 35 per cent. Similarly, the last ST candidate to make it to the common merit list was 90 (among 856 who made it to one of the IITs). Again, 760 of them didn’t make it to the common merit list or scored less than 35 per cent.

That’s part of the problem, say some students and professors. Students who get a leg-up at the level of the entrance examination — thanks to affirmative action and no-English test — find no safety net once they enter the campus.

“Language will always be a problem. But then, someone from, say, Andhra will be disenfranchised if I speak in Hindi so that argument will never be settled,” says an IIT-Kanpur professor who was part of the top administrative team at the institute. But, he says, there is a “deeper malaise” that schools haven’t fixed.

“What I’ve realised over the years is that a student who is unable to communicate with me in English is often unable to communicate with me in Hindi. If he is talking to me in Hindi and every third word of his is a ‘matlab’, there is a problem. This just means schools are not telling students to buckle up. How is it that children score 90-95 per cent in English but can’t construct a line in the language? The books they learn in Class XII, you would think it’s Class VI — no novels, poetry, plays… Where are children going to pick these skills?”

Talking of the limits of affirmative action, the IIT-Kanpur professor says, “Are there two levels or more when you walk out of IIT? No. There’s no B Tech (Gen) and B Tech (SC) and so on. Reservation only gives you a chance to learn but then, you must learn. A civil engineer must learn to make structures, at least to a basic level. Ultimately, the bridge he is building doesn’t understand that it is being built by someone who doesn’t meet those standards. So ultimately, once you come to IIT, if you are not willing to help yourself, nobody can.”

That may be harsh but it’s not far from reality. Ashish Kumar ticks all the boxes — Hindi-medium, reserved category, small town (from Jhunjhunu in Rajasthan). But with a CGPA of 7.38 by the end of his second semester, this civil engineering student is among the best performers in his class. “I understood nothing in class during my first semester. But then, I would write down all the tough words, go back to my hostel and look up a dictionary. YouTube was a big help — I would watch Game of Thrones every day to understand how they spoke English. I would also watch Hindi lectures of professors from other IITs, compare it with my notes and then, dhire-dhire, things would start making sense. It’s not that tough if you work hard,” he says, sitting on a couch in the students’ club.

He is still very diffident, happy to let his voice drown in the clamour around him as students play snooker or table tennis, or simply sit in groups and chat. “Likh lijiye, English mein 92 mila tha Rajasthan Board se (I got 92 per cent in English in the Rajasthan board exam),” he says, making an unsure jab at the notebook. “But I wish I had studied in an English-medium school. It would have been so much easier for me here.”

“What this incident has done is that we have started looking at our own systems and are doing a full-scale review of what we need to do. We are aware that these students came in through a very competitive exam. So we will do what we can to help them cope,” says Pradipto Banerji, director of IIT-Roorkee.
Bade
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

bade saar,

Whats the story behind vera rubin not getting the nobel. If saul perlmutter can get it for dark energy she should have got it for dark matter. No!
No one knows yet what dark matter is, but more importantly how does one get a Nobel without others canvassing for you. Her story is interesting from what I recall and also indicative of gender discrimination present in all societies.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Viv S »

chaanakya wrote:praablam is either with the teachers or with the medium. As I suspected most of these students belong to Uber Privileged class.
However IIT should not have issues in teaching in Hindi or any other Indian language. Afterall a bridge design by civil engineer can be done in any language. It would still remain a bridge design.
Aside from the question of where Hindi-trained engineering lecturers are to come from, there's also the matter of the kids from non-Hindi backgrounds, those from the South & NE for example. Fortunately or unfortunately, English will continue to remain the medium for technical education. At the risk of sounding mercenary, fact is its cheaper to teach kids English than it is to create a parallel network of technical institutes teaching in regional languages.

Kids from those backgrounds will have to work harder but there's no way around that. Even if the IITs made allowances, ISRO, ONGC, L&T, Infosys would not.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

This example from Roorkee shows that though we have democratized the IIT-JEE system, students are ill-prepared to enter the bigger world. Providing for quality English education is a must across the board beginning at primary school level. GoI has to find means to invest in this properly to reap the demographic dividend. There are no two ways about it. Without this we will find PRC taking away English speaking jobs too away from the Indians in the long run. Sanskrit/Hindi will not cut it in the real inter-dependent world.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_28108 »

Let us be frank - the language of science is currently English - even the uber conservative Germans, French and Chinese have understood that- it is simple - its not English but the need of a common language - that was once Latin 9in Europe) then German and now English. There is no need to be parochialistic about it and I have seen people suffer due to it.As I child I was transplanted to England unable to speak English in a foreign land but I struggled, persevered and learnt it. It is all a matter of desire and nobody can make you learn if you do not want to do so.These people are all adults now and have to behave like adults.Blaming teachers etc etc is an easy scapegoat.Today the internet is a great leveler and my students (even fro deep rural areas) are pretty profient with it and if the can FB Whatsapp and Twitter and search for p@rn on Google they can jolly well also search for what they need for studying on Google etc.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

IMHO , this English medium etc is just an excuse for failing...1st year B.Tech is in large part a repetition of JEE syllabus , as someone pointed out...it is just organized better and level of depth is increased...most of these folks never deserved to be there ..what inglees do you need in solving stewarts calculus ( which I believe is used by UGs these dins) or any undergrad general physics text?

the lowering of entry requirements is extreme ... I posted the MCAT scores of medical school entrant by race... blacks/hispanics require lower scores...but it is only 10-15% lower than median score of whites..they have to know atleast the basics of PCMB to get in...

while in India the entry requirements are a lot lax...

In medicine MCI mandates , that to be in the merit list atleast 50% marks must be obtained ...ie if there are 1000 seats and the 950 th ranker gets 49% , he still cannot get admission...(that never happens for open category )...

but for SC/ST even that cut off is relaxed and made to 35/40% depending upon state...

And this whole thing is actually even harming sc/st...because by eliminating competition , we are removing the entire pool from natural selection...which means the smartest amongst them are not selected...because they need not work hard..
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

The argument is not about SC/ST quota students etc, they make up a small fraction. What I have found is that the average student (upper middle class and upper castes as well) in India cannot communicate well at all in English. I do not mean their accent, which can also be atrocious with the the largest variations seen in India of anywhere else in the world. This I have found to be true for even senior scientists making presentations. There are always exceptions. Plenary talks are given by those who speak well and are by invitation only, so hand selected from a small coterie. We have a long way to go.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

^^ total reservation in IIT is 50%...sc/st 23% , obc 27%..

If a science guy understands english , well enough to read textbooks and journals and understand lectures and communicate with peers , than it is enough...the germans/french who come to amreeka are not shakespears ...but manage passable english ...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Saar I am not talking about BaTuucks, but much higher up the education value chain. Most of them are probably not your city upper middle class BTechs either. Passable English is not enough to communicate complex ideas. When you get up to speak for your 5-10 min fame, you need to convey your point well.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

See the Japs and Chinese are not English speakers, unless they are trained in the language. But they get to speak to each other in their native tongue and communication within themselves can be effective. I have learnt Hindi for 12 yrs a long time ago, I cannot communicate anything technical in Hindi to anyone else. The problems we face in India are different, and good English speaking and writing skills are important. The former even more. Lot of people who publish papers even in foreign journals cannot speak well. We have such cases here in the US itself who are from China. Hard to understand what they are saying most of the time. People are smart and guess well. :-) But it has its limitations.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by member_28108 »

Bade wrote:See the Japs and Chinese are not English speakers, unless they are trained in the language. But they get to speak to each other in their native tongue and communication within themselves can be effective. I have learnt Hindi for 12 yrs a long time ago, I cannot communicate anything technical in Hindi to anyone else. The problems we face in India are different, and good English speaking and writing skills are important. The former even more. Lot of people who publish papers even in foreign journals cannot speak well. We have such cases here in the US itself who are from China. Hard to understand what they are saying most of the time. People are smart and guess well. :-) But it has its limitations.
As a journal reviewer we have to send many poorly written articles back and ask the writers to hire an English language "writer' .Lot of papers also are rejected for this very reason. Like it or not good language comprehension is required most of the time.There are only a few who can manage without it.
As far as Japanese and Chinese- they also have understood the limitations of managing only in their local language.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by SBajwa »

Learning Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, etc in local language vs. English is the biggest issue. All Indian students should learn Math and Science classes in English while they can learn Geography, History, Civics classes in any native language.

Math and Science have universal same standards.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

gakakkad wrote: but for SC/ST even that cut off is relaxed and made to 35/40% depending upon state...

And this whole thing is actually even harming sc/st...because by eliminating competition , we are removing the entire pool from natural selection...which means the smartest amongst them are not selected...because they need not work hard..
Actually it is worse than that . SC/ST/OBC seats are dominated by some powerful castes like Yadavs and Meenas. A 'poor' villager or tribal has basically no chance of getting in this 'quota' because the primary education in that area is just terrible.

So effectively what the quota does right now is fill up merit based seats with completely mediocre and sub par folks who were rich enough to get a good primary education ( ie. an English medium school run by CBSE/ICSE ) , but considered 'backward' based on caste.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

Quota students have their problems and it is well documented. But what about the rest of the 50% merit students. How come they have so little impact on the world as a whole. I wonder if the rest are in also due to a virtual quota as the best talent is lost due to non-uniform primary school education standards, in effect making the overly coached city kids with better access to information and opportunities fill positions even when they are only a shade better than the quota class.

With the 3rd largest numbers of engineers graduating from India, we should have been a powerhouse in ideas and design. What gives ? How come the merit quota students are not also asked what they end up doing in real life. A Nadella or a Somasundaram does not count. I am talking about the averages...which have a huge impact on overall quality of talent.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by csaurabh »

With the 3rd largest numbers of engineers graduating from India, we should have been a powerhouse in ideas and design.
3rd largest??

India produces 1.5 million 'engineers' per year.
USA about 100,000 and China about 500,000.

Of course the vast majority of these people are not really 'engineers', they are just assembly line 'graduates'. They learn basically nothing in college and then try to get whatever job they can ( which usually means the IT industry or even technicians/clerks/BPO/etc. )
What gives ? How come the merit quota students are not also asked what they end up doing in real life. A Nadella or a Somasundaram does not count. I am talking about the averages...which have a huge impact on overall quality of talent.
Well, the 'average' merit quota student at IITs do not do so bad either. Many of those whom I thought average have ended up running their own startups. Granted all of these are just e-commerce or web services or app design.. But its still something.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

SBajwa wrote:Learning Physics, Chemistry, Mathematics, etc in local language vs. English is the biggest issue. All Indian students should learn Math and Science classes in English while they can learn Geography, History, Civics classes in any native language.

Math and Science have universal same standards.
I see, Japanese , Russians and Germans would have poor standards in Science or Maths as they teach in their own language. And by Bestern Standards , how many Nobels have they got vis a vis English studying Indians??
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by gakakkad »

prasannasimha wrote: As a journal reviewer we have to send many poorly written articles back and ask the writers to hire an English language "writer' .Lot of papers also are rejected for this very reason. Like it or not good language comprehension is required most of the time.There are only a few who can manage without it.
As far as Japanese and Chinese- they also have understood the limitations of managing only in their local language.

Most decent journals have in house language editors , who take care of language if the paper is accepted ... In fact in NEJM and circulation , reviewers are instructed to only comment on scientific merit.In instruction for reviewer , it is clearly mentioned , that grammar and cosmetic factors , should not influence decision to accept or reject the paper.... I too get articles for peer review...If the research is good , I usually select "accept with minor changes." if a paper has serious grammatical issues I usually just inform the editor about it as that part is confidential and not communicated to the author...As I feel it would be insulting for the author to receive "correct your grammar" remark from a reviewer ... It is the journals duty to take care of the formatting and grammar...what are subscribers and in many cases contributors paying them for otherwise ? I mean neither the author nor the reviewer gets paid... so what is the journal for than..

usually snobbish over rated usually british journals like BMJ and lancet cry a lot about grammar , but don't mind publishing total fraud...
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Bade »

chaanakya wrote: I see, Japanese , Russians and Germans would have poor standards in Science or Maths as they teach in their own language. And by Bestern Standards , how many Nobels have they got vis a vis English studying Indians??
Then India would have to teach in 25 different languages and still everyone would need English to communicate with each other technical matters. Look the Germans and French or the Chinese and Japanese do not try to learn each others native tongue so they can talk to each other. Each of them still learn English for cross communication.

Indians with English abilities not getting Nobel, most likely has to do with the fact that the real talent never boils up to the surface in large numbers due to the handicap of not knowing English in the first place uniformly for the base population. So we have second tier talent masquerading as JEE top 10,000 or some other list. Or we can go by native language only route in respective states, a harder thing to implement and it will bring its own miseries.

Much easier to teach English to all. Just Indianize it all you want.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by negi »

We lost the plot in the middle when Madarcho$ congresi were in power, basically between the late 80s and middle 2000s mostly those who could not land a job anywhere went into teaching all my batchmates who managed a distinction or higher are in industry the 3-4 who are now teaching in Engg colleges had backs and just managed to complete Engg in 4 years and I respect them for it for someone had to pull the cart when going was tough. Compare the scene to say in Massa where people with PhD from even a Ivy league college struggle to get a tenure position in even a top 30 college. It is only after the 5th and 6th pay commission implementation that teaching has again become a profession lucrative enough for those who are good in studies and might give second thoughts to take up teaching in India (there might be 1% exceptional cases here who took up teaching despite having brilliant academic credentials in say late 80s or 90s ) likes of S N Bose, J C Basu, PC Mahalbonis , Bhatnagar, Bhaba or Sarabhais are all from a generation when teaching was second only to IAS or Barrister giri how many such giants we have from 90s or even early 2000s batch ? Forget research we have to first increase depth in our primary and high school teaching departments . Again before people beat me up by pointing out IITians taking up teaching positions again 90% of them are teaching outside India remaining in IITs in India .
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

The recent trend of iit/IIm grads is to start teaching centers with labs and charge money for practicals in their labs. Not a bad idea but they cannot replace the govt. both in scale and reach. GoI has been a failure in k-12 education.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

Bade wrote:With the 3rd largest numbers of engineers graduating from India, we should have been a powerhouse in ideas and design. What gives ? How come the merit quota students are not also asked what they end up doing in real life. A Nadella or a Somasundaram does not count. I am talking about the averages...which have a huge impact on overall quality of talent.
If you ask me it is still not high enough. The USA & EU became fully literate in to 1800-1850 period. This was proper literacy with everyone, including most girls going to school. It is not an accident that the USA civil war happened in 1864. The electorate was finally conscious and aware enough to generate a majority opposed to the slavery proposition. In India I'm not convinced that we even have a majority opposed to the caste system. It also not an accident that so much of the innovation and change began from 1870+/- onwards. Fully literate population was open to new ideas and new types of innovators from all sources. There is still a large majority of India completely unable to use all technology. Even a simple elevator would challenge these folks. No real innovation is possible in these circumstances. Every society that goes through the innovation curve must first get to full literate awareness. SoKo, JP went through that. China is now attempting it. WRT to your question about merit students its is good question. Forget that, not a single IIT has produced a pipeline of nobel prizes or even a single nobel winner.

The Last Indian to win a STEM Nobel, 2009 Chemistry, University of Baroda product.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by svenkat »

School Education in is for the most part with the states.GOI is involved only with CBSE and KVs.

theo saar,
have you heard of rosa parks,slavery,genocide of native americans,indentured labour system,colonial exploitation or just about missionaries singing halleluah in palayamkottai?

Gradual improvements took place in protestant nations over centuries.Even here,there were differences between formal 'higher learning' and technical education.Until well into the 1960s,Englands public schools were elitist.The great leap in formal learning and higher education in US took place after the jewish exodus from Germany in 1930s.The European countries had meritocratic universities of higher learning which were quiet independent of technical institutions and actual innovations taking place in factories and workshops.India was a colony and brutally exploited when Europe took off.This was the real difference.India can be blamed for becoming a colony,for the fossilisation over centuries.Once it became a colony,it was finished.my 2c.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

svenkat: Well, I mean all levels of govts. in India. There is no reason to have a country wide standard. Center failed.on that front. They could have easily whipped k-12 into shape in the past 60+ years.

English public schools are elitist even today. A couple of months back, we were visiting Windsor castle from where you can see Eaton. The way the guide was describing the school you would think that is the only school in UK from where the upper reaches of politics and society are accessible. Probably lot of STEM people in UK wouldn't have gone there. But several notable STEM went to Cambridge and Oxford. That means they have system where at least some bright kids do not slip through the cracks.
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Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

svenkat, I have no idea what you are trying to say but goodbye, I will not read you anymore. I suggest you block me as well.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Supratik »

I have worked in R&D in both India and US. Two things that you need to succeed in R&D are resources and motivation apart from capability. We should note that the era of CV Raman and JC Bose where you could innovate with much less are long gone. In the 90s when we started out for the most part you couldn't do what you wanted even if you had the motivation and perhaps capability. Except in gold plated missions like space and atomic energy where you had resources. People with motivation targeted small problems which could be done instead of trying for the sky. As the economy improved things became better in the 2000s. One or two institutions started to gain international fame but R&D was still difficult. In the 2010s what you have is R&D in much wider scale. Even places with terrible infra are getting equipment. To expect people to produce Nobel laureates under these circumstances is delusional. On the negative side there are problems of motivation, nepotism in recruitment, in some cases political appointments, etc. At this moment we should concentrate on the base rather than the apex e.g. get literacy rates upto 90% by 2030. A massive expansion of education is underway. We should facilitate it. Competition is going to separate the good institutes from the bad which are going to disappear. Quality is going to improve as a result of this competition. Industrialization and competition and at least a partial reversion of brain-drain is going to provide the impetus for innovation.

PS: We only pick up negative news from India. A prof in AIIMS/NII GP Talwar invented the leprosy vaccine which is now being considered for the immunization program in high risk areas. How many educated Indians know about him?
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by negi »

Wait let us not beat ourselves for not winning enough Nobels , back in the day perhaps there was some integrity in the body however I clearly see that SDREs have to do a lot more than a Gora to get a Nobel , Dr. ECG Sudarshan's case is a classic example .
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

^^ Nevertheless, English reaches hardly 2.5% of Indians. That could explain why talents don't bubble up to the top . Better to have each state teach in the language they want, preferably mother tongue language ( not dialect) and if they want to cross communicate let them learn some other language or else be employed in their own states. better for Mumbai and Delhi or Madras getting polluted by uncouth naarthies or chevinistic saauthies. English benefits only 1% of top 2.5% of Indian populace. We can't achieve development if we continue to be slave of english. You should see how they teach in english in Govt schools in Naarthie or even saauthi states.
Theo_Fidel

Re: Indian Education System

Post by Theo_Fidel »

negi wrote:Wait let us not beat ourselves for not winning enough Nobels
Indians do win nobels. Just not from IIT or usually in India. They have to leave to get to that level unfortunately.
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

Supratik wrote:
PS: We only pick up negative news from India. A prof in AIIMS/NII GP Talwar invented the leprosy vaccine which is now being considered for the immunization program in high risk areas. How many educated Indians know about him?
I had occasion to meet him in some conf. But the fact remains that you can't get talent come up if they have no access to English and we won't give access to vernacular. If you go to hinterland in any states, TN or BH for that matter, condition of teachers and teaching would be pathetic and students coming up in such schools are denied access to better opportunities just because they can't speak english even if they get some tech degree in english medium.

I suppose you might be knowing about Upendranath Brahmachari withot googling the name??
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by chaanakya »

Theo_Fidel wrote:
negi wrote:Wait let us not beat ourselves for not winning enough Nobels
Indians do win nobels. Just not from IIT or usually in India. They have to leave to get to that level unfortunately.
The question is what's keeping us down??
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Re: Indian Education System

Post by Vayutuvan »

STEM nobel is not the end all and be all in any case. I read somewhere that when nobel started initially there was a big backlog of great scientists. Now a days it is very difficult to find discoverers of really really really big results year after year after year.

Most nobel winners have shifted to system biology and complex systems etc. where hand waving happens big time. That is the nature of the beast in those areas. Now even fields medalists are ding more research in computational complexity/algorithms area. A few people who are prominent are Gowers, Tao, Mumford and (arguably) Paul Cohen. Fields Medals are given every four years. That should be the norm even for nobels. Increasing the award amount by a factor of four but giving three/four awards every four years would be good in not diluting the award. Otherwise it would become like Ed McMahon's Readers Digest letter "you might have already won $1 million a nobel prize". It is almost true with nobel peace prize what with Kissinger, Arafat, Malala wining the prize and Gandhi not winning it.
Last edited by Vayutuvan on 09 Aug 2015 09:46, edited 1 time in total.
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