Indian Military Aviation

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Jun 2010 19:54

Are the nos next to the helo the weight of armament carried? Can you also give the same for the LCH?

Thanks.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 01 Jun 2010 20:01

Austin wrote:
sathyaC wrote: but the Mi28 is not very agile as compared to the other choppers
Agreed I dont know about others but when compared to Ka-50/52 its not very agile , If you need Agility ,Stealth ( relatively speaking ) , decent protection and crew safety ( ejection seat ) you better opt for Ka's

If you want a flying tank that can take hits and fight , decent agility , good fire power , fiery looks , and most important want as much as logistics commonality with Mi's then opt for Mi-28N , for Russia Mi made sense compared to Ka's due to large fleet of Mi's in service , May be for India Ka's are better.

But then you have Apache with proven combat experience ,good fire power , wide service and argubly a battle hardened chopper then Apache is the choice.

If you ask me between Mi, Apache and Ka then I would bet on Ka , but IAF may find Apache better for many reason and politically these days its a better choice.

hope India goes for the MI 28 some how, that the sanction prone Apache, to be honest i would love the Apache but the problem is its place of origin
if we can get the Mi 28 turn it in to Mi 28 MKI

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jun 2010 00:27

vijyeta wrote:
Kartik wrote:
While capable of taking quite a bit of punishment and able to carry quite a load, there is one fatal flaw in the Ka-50- its a single seater. The workload on a pilot who also has to be the gunner, while keeping an eye out for enemy SAM or AAA fire is very high..dividing the tasks between 2 pilots and having 2 pairs of eyes scanning for targets and threats is a huge plus. If it were upto me, I'd choose the Mi-28N over the Ka-50 due to this diffference.
There is two-seat version as well - Ka52. However, even the Russians seem to prefer the Mi-28N, which also offers a radar.

yes I'm very well aware of it. I played a lot of Ka-52 Hokum simulation games. Loved the helicopter in that role with its huge payload of Vikhr and Iglas but it has some major disadvantges- the reason is simply because the Ka-52 Hokum has side-by-side seating, which means the fuselage is fat for an attack helicopter. And it also means that the pilot cannot visually spot targets on one side and the gunner on the other since they are seated next to each other and block peripheral vision a bit as compared to tandem seaters.

And there is a huge drawback in its design which puts it in a severe disadvantage as a dedicated attack helicopter- the cannon is mounted on the side, not the chin, and has a very small travel of about 15 degrees in the horizontal plane - which means that when a target is in a sector away from the gun, the entire helicopter has to be swivelled around to hit the target.

The Ka-52 however has a role in the Russian armed forces as a forward Command and Control gunship, and with its radar (2 actually, one for air targets and one for ground) and TV/IR sensor suite, its capable of detecting and distributing targets to other gunships.

For the Turkish attack helicopter contest, Kamov and IAI of Israel had co-offered a modified Ka-50 design with tandem twin-seats. It was called the Ka-50-2 Erdogan, and still had a fat fuselage despite being a tandem seater. It had a very modified forward fuselage but retained the side-mounted cannon. You can see it here

The Mi-28N Night Hunter (or Snoopy as I prefer to call it with its black nose) has a better, more conventional gunship design with the fuselage being sleeker, and presenting a smaller target to small arms fire. Its drawback is that it protects the crew a little bit too much at the cost of visibility. A better trade-off between crew protection and visibility might have been a better idea on the Mi-28N.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jun 2010 00:45

sathyaC wrote:
Austin wrote:If IAF wants to just drop out the Mi-35 and replace it with new chopper , I think Ka-50/52 is the best bet its a good match of firepower , agility , stealth and comes with an ejection seat

If IAF plans to operate the modernised Mi-35 for a longer period of time then Mi-28NE logistics wise is a good choice. The Mi-28 looks like a heavy tank with wings.
but the Mi28 is not very agile as compared to the other choppers

says who? see these 2 Youtube videos. the Mi-28N looks every bit as maneuverable as the AH-64D Apache does..

youtube video 1

in this video it does a back-flip like a Eurocopter Tiger

This a huge bird, but its ability to move its nose around, or keep it pointed in one specific direction while turning around is quite good. If it had to be a non-US choice, the Mi-28N is the best bet.

the Tiger will be twice as expensive and given recent reports, its not fully combat capable either..I found it so funny that when France actually had to deploy Tigers to Af'tan it needed to undergo an urgent six-month long modification program to add defensive avionics to the Tiger..made it quite clear that European nations may induct weapons but it doesn't mean that they're combat capable in a real sense..and when the IAF wants something, it wants it to be ready for war very soon after induction, so half-baked capabilities don't go far with them.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Jun 2010 00:55

IAF Pilots Chosen To Receive Training On C-130J

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 02 Jun 2010 02:40

IAF Combat and Heavy-Lift Chopper Trials to Begin by July
Hindustan Times

Indo-Asian News Service
Philly, May 30, 2010

The heavy lift Chinook, for instance, is the only helicopter that can land on water in an emergency, and also operate just above the water level to land or evacuate troops or people in a natural disaster situation.

Notably, IAF's Mi 35s have been upgraded over the last few years with Israeli night-fighting devices, but the airframes are too old for any more technology insertions.

IAF had acquired half a dozen Mi 26 choppers for ferrying supplies to the Himalayas but Hardly A Couple of Them are Now Able to Fly, One problem being the Lack of Spares as its Manufacturing Facilities have closed down after the disintegration of the Soviet Union 20 years back.

Mi 26 is a huge machine though, equivalent to an An-12 aircraft that the IAF once used to fly.

But Millsap says: "No Helicopter can Match the Stability of the Chinook, whose Contra-Rotating Twin-Rotors withstand Rough Weather in Land, Mountains and Sea."

In Afghanistan, where the US and NATO forces are fighting the Al Qaida and Taliban terrorists, Chinooks maintain a steady supply to the troops while the Apaches give them cover if required in a battlezone.

Adds Vivek Lall, vice president and India country head for Boeing Defense and Space (BDS): "The Apache will be a capable and lethal defender of India's troops and assets, while the Chinook will answer many of the Indian military and humanitarian requirements."

While Millsap briefed a visiting Indian media group, invited by Boeing, on the capabilities of the AH 64D Block III, which is still under development, other company executives, Jack Dougherty and Mark Bellow, highlighted the capabilities of the Chinook with graphic footage from the troubled Afghan mountains.

The first Block III Apache would be delivered to the US Army in 2011 and to the IAF within three years or less of the signing of an agreement, Boeing officials said.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 02 Jun 2010 04:07

Why, according to wiki, are the Indian C130Js so much more expensive than other nations? Obviously the avionics may differ but the price difference is staggering. 6 units to India for $ 1 billion while Canada got 17 units for $1.4 billion. Every foreign purchase is 2-3 times cheaper per unit than Indias.

Could they have also placed some C-17 avionics on board, that surely would raise the price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-130J_Super_Hercules

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 02 Jun 2010 05:34

I worry about helicopters that have a radar or other sensitive items placed on the rotor mast. From what I heard (at Aero India) that place (understandably) vibrates a lot and cutting down those vibes is a difficult trick. The US did it (somehow) with the Apache - but it still bothers me that the MTBF and the rates of serviceability might be low. Nobody talks about these things in public and brochures are always positive so failures is exactly what we SDREs hear about years after we buy an item from abroad.

I am guessing that there has to be an entire vibration reduction system that absorbs all the energy and if that system goes kaput the mast mounter radar is worth less than a lollipop. If you are looking to mount sensitive electronics in a vibration free environment, the top of the rotor mast is the last place to look at, I would have thought. That is why very few helos have them.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Jun 2010 08:04

Seems like price wise Mi-28 is quite competitive link

Instead, the defense ministry plans to acquire fourth-generation Russian attack helicopters, either the Mi-28 Havoc, which costs a quarter of the AH-64, or the Kaman Ka-Alligator Hokum 2.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 02 Jun 2010 08:16

Austin wrote:Seems like price wise Mi-28 is quite competitive link

Instead, the defense ministry plans to acquire fourth-generation Russian attack helicopters, either the Mi-28 Havoc, which costs a quarter of the AH-64, or the Kaman Ka-Alligator Hokum 2.

but according to wink the price of the Mi28 AH 64 Ka 50 is all the same around the 15 million mark not sure about the avionics

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Jun 2010 18:52

Russia to transfer its Nerpa nuclear sub to India in autumn 2010

Dmitriyev also expressed hope that Russia and India would sign a contract on the joint development of a new fifth-generation fighter within the next three months.

The sides earlier agreed to develop both a single-seat and a two-seat versions of the aircraft, which would be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, by 2016.

(Granted it is not a quote.)

The FGFA could be radically different than the PAK-FA.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Jun 2010 20:36

Visiting HAL, Bangalore, for a couple of days... any specific questions? - Ajai Shukla

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jun 2010 21:24

sathyaC wrote: but according to wink the price of the Mi28 AH 64 Ka 50 is all the same around the 15 million mark not sure about the avionics

the AH-64D is a LOT more expensive than $15 million..you might just be able to get a bare-bones Apache airframe for that price..the cost after all onboard equipment has been added, plus ground support, training, etc. will be nearer $50 million per unit.

Without a doubt, the Mi-28N will be cheaper than an Apache.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 02 Jun 2010 21:47

Kartik wrote:
sathyaC wrote: but according to wink the price of the Mi28 AH 64 Ka 50 is all the same around the 15 million mark not sure about the avionics
the AH-64D is a LOT more expensive than $15 million..you might just be able to get a bare-bones Apache airframe for that price..the cost after all onboard equipment has been added, plus ground support, training, etc. will be nearer $50 million per unit.

Without a doubt, the Mi-28N will be cheaper than an Apache.

the price 15 million for the AH-64 is for the US without spares
for export it priced around 60 million

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Jun 2010 00:40

sathyaC wrote:
Kartik wrote: the AH-64D is a LOT more expensive than $15 million..you might just be able to get a bare-bones Apache airframe for that price..the cost after all onboard equipment has been added, plus ground support, training, etc. will be nearer $50 million per unit.

Without a doubt, the Mi-28N will be cheaper than an Apache.
the price 15 million for the AH-64 is for the US without spares
for export it priced around 60 million

don't just go by what wikipedia says. that is just the price of re-manufacturing existing AH-64As to the AH-64D Longbow Apache Block III standard with zero-hours on the airframe. A brand new AH-64D Longbow Block III will cost more.

Besides, this doesn't account for support contracts, training costs, weapons purchases, etc. If you want to take into account the true cost of an Apache then those have to be factored in because you need those to support an Apache fleet.

May 6/09: A $128.1 million firm fixed price, cost plus fixed fee contract. The contract will remanufacture 8 Army AH-64As into AH-64D Extended Block II+ models, reset to “zero flight hours” condition. This award also includes 2 United Arab Emirates (UAE) Longbow Crew Trainers (LCT), and various enhancements for the USA’s own LCT program. Options may be picked up later for additional helicopters, and/or another Longbow Crew Trainer for the USA.

Work is to be performed in Mesa, AZ (59%) and St. Louis, MO (41%) with an estimated completion date of Dec 31/13. One bid was solicited from the helicopters’ manufacturer, with one bid received (W58RGZ-06-C-0093).

Boeing representatives confirmed to DID that the total number of remanufactured aircraft ordered under the AH-64 Extended Block II contract is now 104. The 96 helicopters in the base contract were all ordered, and these 8 EBII+ helicopters are additive. Another order for 13 EBII+ helicopters is expected by the end of 2009 (but was placed in February 2010), which would bring the Extended Block II program’s total to 117 helicopters.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 07 Jun 2010 00:51

but why do we need the heavy hitting attack heli like Apache at all??? I understand that it can carry more payload in terms of both weapons and sensors but still with WSI dhruv and LCH this niche should be taken care of, right???

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Jun 2010 16:21

First IAF Fighter Base In TN

Work is apace at Sulur on an extended runway, test bays for the flight control system, avionics, radar, special hangars and modern radio and navigation aids. These facilities are being built for fighter jets which will embark on patrol missions over the peninsular region and the Indian Ocean.

Such a full-fledged fighter air base and the decision to position a squadron of combat jets has been prompted by “enhanced capabilities of adversaries” in recent days, top sources in IAF told this newspaper. “There is definitely a need to protect strategic assets in the south given the fact that our adversaries have long range missiles and ship-launched cruise missiles,” the sources said. Besides, a combat squadron would help maintain superiority over the Indian Ocean and protect sea routes in that region. “From Sulur it will be easy to do the aerial equivalent of a flag march over Sri Lanka and the Maldives, should the need arise,” the sources added.

Tejas to be based here..

vic · Post by **vic** » 07 Jun 2010 17:18

Apache is running at around US$ 60million

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Jun 2010 17:27

the tender has no logic to me - 25 odd helis probably with their own engine, avionics, supply chain means they can hardly flit around having much impact on a bigger level.

instead perhaps 50 WSI Dhruvs could be procured for the price of 25 AH64/mi28N. sharing the turbomeca engine with regular Dhruvs is itself a big bonus because engine is the most complex part.

its better to continue improving the WSI Dhruv and improve its missiles and sensors than spend a billion $$ replacing the Mi35 with a new line.

the LCH should be ready to ramp up and breed in numbers in a few yrs when the Mi35 fleet is due to retire.

nash · Post by **nash** » 08 Jun 2010 09:17

Hi

I am in the electronic city area of bangalore.

Saw about 5-6 Fighter may be more, not sure but not looking like MKI or MIG-29 or Mig-21.

Look like Rafale to me, lots of clouds unable to get the clear view.

Does anybody saw those planes.I never saw that number of fighter one after another in the sky.

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 08 Jun 2010 10:00

nash wrote:Saw about 5-6 Fighter may be more, not sure but not looking like MKI or MIG-29 or Mig-21.
Look like Rafale to me, lots of clouds unable to get the clear view.

Those were F-16s, a total of 6 of them took off this morning around 9 am. It was reported on BRF that they had landed yesterday at around 2:15 pm at the HAL airport Bangalore!

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 08 Jun 2010 10:27

^^^ ya saw them today at 9-9.15 am while playing cricket,my best birthday till date ,was buzzed by a stratotanker first followed by another and then 6 f-16s with 3 drop tanks each followed them ,they were heading west and then took a wide turn to south .... might be singaporean vipers ....following rambha to france ...the stratotanker confused me for a civilian aircraft until i saw the refueling boom in the LOWERED position ...thought the would be retracted while flying .

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Jun 2010 10:58

^^^ Confirmed sightings... I saw them while i was getting ready for my office... those babies delayed my by half an hour.. just couldn't tear my eyes off them..
Any one know why they had come??? and from where??

The boom was retracted... not extended when i saw it..

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 08 Jun 2010 11:35

bala saar they were singaporean vipers going to france for Ex.Garuda, rambhas left yesterday ...i live near national law school ,which is very close to mysore road ....the tail booms are the ones which helped me identify them, they were extended ...no idea why

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Jun 2010 11:43

so it seems the C130 departed one hour earlier for the gulf to account for its slower speed.

http://home.tiscali.nl/mysteryship/exer ... cises.html

looking at european exercise schedule, the French have a lot of exercises compared to the others.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 08 Jun 2010 13:24

When they overflew my house in wilson garden, the booms were retracted... the boom did protrude a bit from the airframe... which might appeared as extended... I could be wrong though...

Sorry for the OT..

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Jun 2010 11:23

First three Super Hercules airlifters get ready for India

Seems right on schedule. One must keep an eye on how well the Americans are sticking to the committed delivery schedules. C-130Js seem to be on time. IIRC so were the initial batch of Boeing Business Jets. Next come the P-8Is and may be the C-17s and MMRCAs after them. No news of probable slip ups on their delivery schedule so far. IIRC, the LM-2500 Gas turbines for the P-17s were delivered quite on time after the minor political glitch was rectified in a jiffy.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 10 Jun 2010 23:53

IOL: Says UAE is extremely close with a deal for the Rafale. French Foreign Ministry is going to second a permanent diplomat only for UAE.

Looks like those old Mirages maybe heading to Iraq and Not India according to other sources.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Jun 2010 06:26

shyamd wrote:IOL: Says UAE is extremely close with a deal for the Rafale. French Foreign Ministry is going to second a permanent diplomat only for UAE.

Looks like those old Mirages maybe heading to Iraq and Not India according to other sources.

A UAE deal means that some sultans are going to make lot of money in kickbacks

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Jun 2010 09:04

Germany keen on joint air wargame with India

Germany is exploring options of conducting joint air combat exercises with the IAF even as it looks at India as a market for the the EADS' Eurofighter Typhoon fighter jets, its Air Chief Aarne Kreuzinger-Janick said on Thursday. "India does joint combat training with US, France, Russia and other countries. In future, we hope Germany and India can engage in such exercises," Kreuzinger-Janick said here on the sideslines of the Berlin Air Show.

"But we (India and Germany) need to find an environment where we can do that. We are also talking about joint exercises with the Indian navy and army," Kreuzinger-Janick said. Germany has already discussed the issue with the Indian government but an understanding has not been reached yet.

"Not yet. But we are in talks with India on joint exercises. Perhaps, we can have a programme in future," he told Indian reporters in reply to a question. He insisted that Indo-German air exercises could be held periodically not only in one of the two countries but also in Alaska, Sardinia or in some area along the Mediterranean Sea.

Germany is looking for partner countries to train together with the purpose of exchanging combat techniques, innovative use of technology and learning combat skills from friendly countries. The German air force has of late put a lot of emphasis on training exercises. The German air force is also trying to form a "solid base" of instructor pilots to train its personnel. "I decided to concentrate on trainer pilots to get a good, solid base of instructor pilots," Kreuzinger-Janick said. He informed that visiting India soon is high on his agenda.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Jun 2010 10:03

DELETED.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Jun 2010 11:37

IAF MIG 21 Bisons - ACM May 2010 Issue
http://ifile.it/zc9nvrq/Fighting%20the% ... lgaria.zip

P.S Dont worry abt the title I put the wrong title in

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Jun 2010 11:45

And this is the correct one:

Fighting the FULCRUM in Bulgaria AFM Dec 2009 Issue

http://ifile.it/b3vjkg2/Fighting%20the% ... lgaria.zip

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Jun 2010 11:49

even the previous link worked for me. surprisingly no cockpit photos.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 11 Jun 2010 11:52

^^ GD saan apologies the first link is for the Bisons I incorrectly named it Fulcrum in Bulgaria. The 2nd one is indeed abt the Fulcrum in Bulgaria going up against a Block 30 Solah.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Jun 2010 12:04

Pratyush wrote:
I fail to understand why the IAF Oldies are so discrediting when it comes to LCA ...
DEL

The statement of yours is highly insulting to the institution of the IAF - while you've every right to your opinion, it does not mean that you can slander an organization in such a cavalier manner. There are many twists and turns to the LCA saga and while no one is lily white in terms of owing up responsibility for the delay, such a comment is derogatory in nature. I request you to kindly delete this post - failing which I'll be reporting this to moderators.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 12 Jun 2010 00:41

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... ction.html

Grob puts an ejection seat on the light trainer that it is offering to India, although its not a zero-zero ejection seat. Keep in mind that this is a side-by-side seating trainer, not a tandem one like most of the military basic trainers available.

ILA: Grob reveals smallest training aircraft with ejection seats
By Andrew Doyle

Grob Aircraft has chosen ILA to take the wraps off a radical revamp of its popular G120-series elementary and basic military trainer, having equipped the aircraft with a sophisticated Elbit avionics suite and a pair of Martin-Baker ejection seats.

With a maximum take-off weight of only 1,400kg (3,100lb), the G120TP - which had its first flight three months ago - is the smallest aircraft yet to be equipped with Martin-Baker ejection seats. The Mk.15B seat - weighing 36kg - is also the first from the UK company to feature a fully composite seat bucket.

The enhancements have been made to enable the G120 to be used for some elements of advanced pilot training that currently require more expensive aircraft such as the Beechcraft T-6 Texan, Pliatus PC-9 or Korea Aerospace Industries KT-1.

"The pilot is able to go and exercise missions that previously could only be done in $8-10 million aircraft," says Andre Hiebeler, Grob Aircraft chief sales officer. "Air forces want to reduce costs. We're trying to put two markets together - basic/elementary and some parts of advanced," he adds.

Hiebeler says there were no problems integrating ejection seats into such a small aircraft because the side-by-side cockpit is "very roomy". Fitting ejection seats enables the aircraft to be used to practise spins, close-formation flying and dog-fighting.

"The Mk.15B is half the weight of our current lightest seat," says Martin-Baker programme manager James Pearse. "We've gone to an entirely composite seat bucket now." The Mk.15B can be fired down to zero altitude and a speed of 60kt (110km/h).

The fully specified G120TB - including upgraded Rolls-Royce 250-B17F turboprop engine - is priced at $3.5 million, compared with $1.3 million for the basic G120. It is being offered for competitions in India, Indonesia and the UK.

The basic G120 has been bought by Canada, France, Germany, Israel and the United Arab Emirates.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 14 Jun 2010 04:36

Keen on joint exercises with India, says German Air Chief

German Air Force Chief Lt Gen Aarne Kreuzinger-Janik said that the two sides have talked about the possibility of joint training and a formal mechanism could be worked out in the near future.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Jun 2010 05:22

VinodTK wrote:Keen on joint exercises with India, says German Air Chief

German Air Force Chief Lt Gen Aarne Kreuzinger-Janik said that the two sides have talked about the possibility of joint training and a formal mechanism could be worked out in the near future.

No offence mate.. but posted in the same thread 3 days ago.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 14 Jun 2010 10:16

^^Andy saan... how do you subscribe to the ACM and AFM in India??? Sorry for the OT, Bredators...