Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[chackojoseph]

Shaurya has the huge advantage in range over Brahmos. @ 1000km it can still take a considerable payload...enough to rip the guts out of a carrier 8 decks deep, where a brahmos homing in at sea level might just mission kill it.

not that I am opposed to the idea of a combined Shaurya + brahmos attack - one starting from 30km high and the other at sea level.

A 1000 km hit to kill anti-ship missile is gargantuan effort in terms of actual operation. IRNSS is not expected to be totally functional by 2015.

[Singha]

IRNSS is the lesser problem since we have glonass access. we will need radar sats and trios of sigint based hunters like NOSS sats that cheena and babaji already have.

we seem to go all out in buying uber expensive things like apache without filling in major C3I holes like lack of GMTI platforms, lack of HALE, lack of these sats.....kind of powerful shooter with a eyesight of 10m range.

IAF tender for 9 SIGINIT platforms on bizjets is still languishing in tender stage probably.

[chackojoseph]

We simply don't have assets for a 1000 km precision strike, that if the missile can actually do a precision strike at that range. It will be nice to work to the capability though. Precision systems, even glonass is not an assured capability.

[Singha]

sometimes even if weapons are not perfect they suffice for area denial and scare tactics like the DF21C asbm. we need to play the psyops game too.
the SS18 likewise is a clumsy beast the size of a PSLV but its a statement, that once its leaves the kennel its going to tear the world apart . and they painted it a sinister black as well.
same for the B52. its a big old dog that always gets a bite in.

[Indranil]

Which ship are you proposing that can be cut in the middle or even at sides and insert a 35 feet VLS launcher in next two years

The same ones used for testing Dhanush over the past decade.

[Indranil]

ADE just solicited tender for carrying "trial items" to and from Balasore. Expect Nirbhay to be tested in January/February next year.

[chackojoseph]

Which ship are you proposing that can be cut in the middle or even at sides and insert a 35 feet VLS launcher in next two years

The same ones used for testing Dhanush over the past decade.

I find no logic in that. Why take off a proven platform for next two years (which is your estimate) and convert it to an unproven platform for next few years. In addition, 35ft launcher will be permanently on helipad.

If it has to be done, then it should be on a new platform, which can accomodate the VL.

Your timeline of 2 years is not understandable.



Dhanush being integrated on a moving ship.

[Indranil]

Chacko sahab,

Sincere apologies. I saw your last response and thought "What is Chacko ji talking about? Let me show him that we were debating testing rather than deploying the missile!". So I started scrolling up. Turns out you had asked when I thought it will be fielded. I missed that. I was speaking about testing the Shurya/K-15 from a IN ship and I sincerely think it can be done in 1-2 years.

Returning back to Dhanush. Even Dhanush can't be fielded in its current form anytime soon. Plus the liquid-shiquid problem. Why not start testing the K-15 instead? I thought that is the question we are debating.

[chackojoseph]

indranilroy sahab,

See, Dhanush cannot be replaced at this point and not in next decade or till the ship is retired. It is a tested and deployed weapon. as mentioned above, you cannot take down a deployed capability, which has not alternative. Dhanush is a hard won capability and will continue to evolve, tested etc. That ship is not available. Another issue being, if you place the VLS launched above the helio deck, it brings permanent operational restrictions to the platform. For example, the tilt required for ship during maneuvering. Dhanush, poses no such restriction until its deployed and they have developed a routine for that.

Your original point being time frame given most of the ingredients being already there. Probably, it can be first demonstrated on a towed barge or something, until navy manages a design that can accommodate the VLS (like Brahmos on Talwars). Even if Navy manages a platform yesterday, it still will require approx 5-7 years before it can be called a deployed capability. It includes, fitment, first run, testing, modification and experience.

Now, my original point being that Dhanush cannot be replaced for quite sometime, which runs beyond a decade. Since your original post did not mention testing (as you rightly pointed out) and later posts involved stripping a deployed capability, had a different answer.

[pragnya]

pragnya

It's maneuverability of warhead and not the missile. It is still an area denial missile.

CJ can you please detail the highlighted?? i have no idea about that and would appreciate your explanation. TIA.

[Indranil]

See, Dhanush cannot be replaced at this point and not in next decade or till the ship is retired. It is a tested and deployed weapon.

I did not know that Dhanush is a deployed weapon.

[member_23455]

See, Dhanush cannot be replaced at this point and not in next decade or till the ship is retired. It is a tested and deployed weapon.

I did not know that Dhanush is a deployed weapon.

It's not...unless the services have changed their usage of the term "deployed".

[chackojoseph]

Hmmm... I too don't know what you mean by deployed weapon. As I know, its not an experimental weapon.

[member_23455]

The use of certain words is normally a good benchmark that a weapon system is not yet "deployed."
But then I don't have TS clearance and have to reply on open source info.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -chandipur

"The trial was conducted by the SFC of the Indian defence force in co-operation with DRDO," a defence official said.

[chackojoseph]

pragnya

It's maneuverability of warhead and not the missile. It is still an area denial missile.

CJ can you please detail the highlighted?? i have no idea about that and would appreciate your explanation. TIA.

As I know, the missile itself is not maneuverable. It has a depressed trajectory, which papers are calling maneuverable trajectory. But, when the warhead head separates from the rocket, it has maneuvering capability. It is meant for survive.

However, its not omni directional.

You remark was that since Prithvi is maneuvering, it can survive ABM. My point being, a SRBM flight time does not yet present a chance for missile defense until its terminal phase where there is a point defense.

[chackojoseph]

The use of certain words is normally a good benchmark that a weapon system is not yet "deployed."
But then I don't have TS clearance and have to reply on open source info.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... -chandipur

"The trial was conducted by the SFC of the Indian defence force in co-operation with DRDO," a defence official said.

See, the trial by SFC is not a developmental trial. SFC routinely trials (not test fires) as a part of user trials of a in production system. There is a huge difference.

So if you have a difference of opinion on word 'deployment,' its ok with me. But, its definitely not a 'developmental trial.'

[rajanb]

I am now confused.

Having googled it yet again read a multitude of newspaper reports I cam across the following keywords relating to the test firing which occurred a week back:

a) Developed

b) Fired from a warship by SFC with logistical support from DRDO

c) Inducted into the services.

d) 350km range, 500kg nuclear/conventional warhead, precision strike.

The only daal mein kala seems to be b) in bold above. Which means they were testing the 1) installation of a launch platform on a moving ship; and 2) monitoring its progress by DRDO to see if no parameters had changed, which they seemingly did not.

My take from all this is one warship, at least, has now got Dhanush launch capabilities. And further tests are going to be carried out. So it is in the process of deployment. Now, the question is, whether the future launches will be from this warship, or as launch capabilities are installed on other warships, they will also be tested to see if the total fire control and missile systems are tuned as per expectations.

Shoot me if I am wrong.

[chackojoseph]

rajanb,

If you haven't already noticed, DRDO is present at all SFC launches for support. It takes telemetry and other readings for data and analysis. It is done so that separate tests need not be conducted for the same.

I understand my word 'deployed' might have been inappropriate since the navy might not have said so. But the point is that the naval ship is routinely in international waters. US warships often face protests as they have declared nuclear capability. India may not have found it appropriate to call Dhanush deployed in order to avoid it. Kiwis, Japan, Australia etc are touchy about

[pragnya]

CJ can you please detail the highlighted?? i have no idea about that and would appreciate your explanation. TIA.

As I know, the missile itself is not maneuverable. It has a depressed trajectory, which papers are calling maneuverable trajectory. But, when the warhead head separates from the rocket, it has maneuvering capability. It is meant for survive.

However, its not omni directional.

You remark was that since Prithvi is maneuvering, it can survive ABM. My point being, a SRBM flight time does not yet present a chance for missile defense until its terminal phase where there is a point defense.

all my basic reading from open sources mention the maneurability of the missile and not the warhead. let me quote what Dr. V K Saraswat says. he mentions it as a 'hybrid propulsion missile'. as to the depressed trajectory, it seems (to me) it is an an option among other profiles. however since i am no expert, Kanson/Ramana could answer this better.

[member_23455]

So if you have a difference of opinion on word 'deployment,' its ok with me. But, its definitely not a 'developmental trial.'

Fair enough. Since we are all trying to establish "the objective truth" here despite being restricted to open source and as usual loosely written reports in the media, let us dig deeper.

Would you say that this report is correct? Genuine question.

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... l-vessels/

This mentions not one but two vessels of the Sukanya class as Dhanush capable. Let me know and I'll build my thoughts further on this.

[chackojoseph]

You remark was that since Prithvi is maneuvering, it can survive ABM. My point being, a SRBM flight time does not yet present a chance for missile defense until its terminal phase where there is a point defense.

all my basic reading from open sources mention the maneurability of the missile and not the warhead. let me quote what Dr. V K Saraswat says. he mentions it as a 'hybrid propulsion missile'. as to the depressed trajectory, it seems (to me) it is an an option among other profiles. however since i am no expert, Kanson/Ramana could answer this better.[/quote]

You get get opinions on that. Also read the sentence what I have marked in bold to explain why i have said it so.

RajitO,

Two of the Sukanya's and INS Rajput are Dhanush capable.

Added later...

See, you should understand the history of the Naval launchers. The three ships formed the basis of development of naval launchers. I don't know in the strictest sense how much they are capable. Subhadra - P51 has been most used.

Even in the article The Prithvi Story Dhanush was a success back in early 2000's.

[chackojoseph]

Dhanush trials complete 2002

V.K. Atre, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, said on September 29: "Dhanush is ready for induction after successful trials at sea."

============================

One of the reasons DRDo participates in the tests are because they are usually held at Dhamra and Paradip for close monitoring of the test-firing.

================================

Ages back, there was a rumor that Dhanush was planned to be fired from a Surfaced Submarine.

==================================

Etc etc. There are so many tit bits about Dhanush. I wish, we had paid attention to it in late 1990's and early 2000's.

[Karan M]

So if you have a difference of opinion on word 'deployment,' its ok with me. But, its definitely not a 'developmental trial.'

Fair enough. Since we are all trying to establish "the objective truth" here despite being restricted to open source and as usual loosely written reports in the media, let us dig deeper.

Would you say that this report is correct? Genuine question.

http://www.naval-technology.com/project ... l-vessels/

This mentions not one but two vessels of the Sukanya class as Dhanush capable. Let me know and I'll build my thoughts further on this.

Been a while since i checked on this but MOD press releases also noted more than a single OPV.
Also the DRDO developed new composite landing pads for these OPVs so that they could still deploy choppers and be dual used as regular OPVs.

Indranil - Dhanush is deployed.

[chackojoseph]

I don't understand why folks are touchy about deployed word wrt Dhanush. After all it is the first and current part of our nuke triad, until k-15 is online.

[rajanb]

Thank you all. I am now deconfused

Cj, it wasn't your post. Just wanted to tick a box here.

I am sure, as I discovered post '71, a lot of stuff we could do was not open source. Particularly, in the "dirty tricks" department and the intelligence part, which made this dhoti glad!

The use of technology maybe advertised, but full capabilities never ever revealed. That is what added to the "shock (for the enemy) and awe (for me)".

[member_23455]

I don't understand why folks are touchy about deployed word wrt Dhanush. After all it is the first and current part of our nuke triad, until k-15 is online.

Because it means different things to different people - else we would not be having this discussion, right?
We have gone forward in this discussion from one "warship" to three now, including the INS Rajput, which changes some things, as new info should.

Quite a few gaps still on this so I'll come back with more questions.

[member_28108]

How do they prevent a missile crashing back in case of a failed launch from a vertical launch tube ?

[NRao]

Wiki:

A vertical launch system can be either hot launch, where the missile ignites in the cell, or cold launch, where the missile is expelled by gas produced by a gas generator which is not part of the missile itself, and then the missile ignites. "Cold" means relatively cold compared with rocket engine exhaust. A hot launch system does not require an ejection mechanism, but does require some way of disposing of the missile's exhaust and heat as it leaves the cell. If the missile ignites in a cell without an ejection mechanism, the cell must withstand the tremendous heat generated without igniting the missiles in the adjacent cells.
US Navy Mk 41 Tomahawk launch, hot launch.

An advantage of a hot-launch system is that the missile propels itself out of the launching cell using its own engine, which eliminates the need for a separate system to eject the missile from the launching tube. This potentially makes a hot-launch system relatively light, small, and economical to develop and produce, particularly when designed around smaller missiles. A potential disadvantage is that a malfunctioning missile could destroy the launch tube.

The advantage of the cold-launch system is in its safety: should a missile engine malfunction during launch, the cold-launch system can eject the missile thereby reducing or eliminating the threat. For this reason, Russian VLSs are often designed with a slant so that a malfunctioning missile will land in the water instead of on the ship's deck. As missile size grows, the benefits of ejection launching increase. Above a certain size, a missile booster cannot be safely ignited within the confines of a ship's hull.

American VLSs have the missile cells arranged in a grid with one lid per cell and are "hot launch" systems; the engine ignites within the cell during the launch, and thus it requires exhaust piping for the missile flames and gasses. France, Italy and Britain use a similar hot-launching Sylver system in PAAMS. Russia produces both grid systems and a revolver design with more than one missile per lid. Russia also uses a cold launch system for some of its vertical launch missile systems, e.g., the Tor missile system. The People's Republic of China uses a circular "cold launch" system that ejects the missile from the launch tube before igniting the engine on the Type 052C destroyer, and also a rectangular ”hot launch" system with one lid per cell arranged in a grid on the Type 054A frigate.

[Kanson]

all my basic reading from open sources mention the maneurability of the missile and not the warhead. let me quote what Dr. V K Saraswat says. he mentions it as a 'hybrid propulsion missile'. as to the depressed trajectory, it seems (to me) it is an an option among other profiles. however since i am no expert, Kanson/Ramana could answer this better.

Pragnya saar, from open source we know that the missile can perform Dive attack at terminal phase. There was not much open-source information about its ability to manoeuver during mid-course phase or other terminal dance.

Having said that we can see the potential of this missile by looking at similar missiles like Iskander, LORA in this category. Basic characteristics of these missiles are high precision strike manoeuverable weapon which is otherwise only possible through Cruise missile. [Comparison: Shourya is termed as both ballistic and Cruise missile; Inference: It could be highly manoeuverable; but could be start-to-end manoeuverable as Iskander(reported to manoeuver in all phases) or Cruise missile? But, considering how it was reported to have around 20 motors and how it could 'wriggle' to dissipate heat during cruise/mid-course phase, we can anticipate that it has some surprises in store in this phase too.]

High manoeuvrability of these missiles is for not only to achieve precision hits including mobile/semi-mobile targets(Both Iskander and LORA can attack mobile targets and employs Top Dive attack) but also for deception and to evade ABM [Comparision: Top Dive attack as reported for Shourya is regarded as an anti-ABM manoeuver. Inference:So it can throw a few surprises during terminal phase.]

[member_28108]

Wiki:

The advantage of the cold-launch system is in its safety: should a missile engine malfunction during launch, the cold-launch system can eject the missile thereby reducing or eliminating the threat. For this reason, Russian VLSs are often designed with a slant so that a malfunctioning missile will land in the water instead of on the ship's deck. As missile size grows, the benefits of ejection launching increase. Above a certain size, a missile booster cannot be safely ignited within the confines of a ship's hull.

Has there been any vertical launch that has failed and crashed back onto the ship ?

[Rahul M]

not VLS but ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDcrJtivAY

seadart missile.

[member_28108]

not VLS but ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDcrJtivAY

seadart missile.

but one going up and back down is a theoretical possibility so what is done to prevent such a thing happening ?

[Manish_Sharma]

not VLS but ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDcrJtivAY

seadart missile.

Wow!

Trident missile launch failure is equally dramatic:

[member_28108]

not VLS but ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYDcrJtivAY

seadart missile.

Wow!

Trident missile launch failure is equally dramatic:


Vishnu Chakra !!

[ramana]

prasanna, There are two types: fallback and driveback. Fallback is when there is ignition failure and the vehicle falls back and takes out the launch platform. The solution is to move the platform opposite direction away from the launch point. And mkae sure the initiation train is very high reliability.
The other scenario is driveback. This happens due to loss of control systems causing the vehicle to driveback towards the launch platform. Here need to ensure high reliability of the control loop and pray.

[wig]

India successfully test-fires N-capable missile
excerpts

India on Tuesday successfully test-fired its nuclear-capable Prithvi-II surface-to-surface missile from a military base in Odisha for the third time within two months, a senior official said.

The indigenously-developed ballistic missile with a maximum range of 350 km was fired from the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur-on-sea in Balasore district, about 230 km from Bhubaneswar.

"The mission was hundred percent success. It met all mission objectives," test range director MVKV Prasad told IANS.

The test was carried out by the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) as part of a regular training exercise, he said.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 777253.cms

[sum]

^^ Something seems to be cooking here going by the flurry of "Prithvi" tests!

[sudhan]

^^^ probably skinny yevil bhindians are intercepting these Prithvis using their kuffar BMD systems..

I am guessing the next-gen BMD is getting tested..

[Karan M]

Man, this prithvi-2 stuff is getting old. DRDO is busy playing games with all of us.

[jamwal]

It's a training procedure by SFC, not a developmental trial by DRDO.