Indian Education System

[Supratik]

@nagi,

I know about Dr. Brahmachari.

It doesn't have much to do with language. I had difficulty in understanding the English language of a Japanese nobel laureate based in US. It is more of a systemic problem.

I think it is very hard to keep your motivation up if it is a permanent job without incentives like in IITs. IITs when they started were more dedicated to "teach" and create a pool of scientific talent. They stressed on academic excellence which doesn't necessarily translate into good researchers. They haven't been able to make the transition to world class research and innovation centers. But I am hopeful it will happen sometime in the future.

[Bade]

Indians do win nobels. Just not from IIT or usually in India. They have to leave to get to that level unfortunately.

Future Nobels from India or India trained scientists will come out of IISERs. It is a matter of time only. IITs cannot be expected to fetch Nobels for you. The focus is too much on technical education and science is considered as a 2nd tier pursuit within the system. Unfortunate as this is not the case at MIT/Caltech. When the superior-complex among engineers disappears from India is when we will see more traction.

[durairaaj]

I would like to pitch in and contribute my 2cs.

English has become a must to communicate in modern science. Without english skill (Please note: not english knowledge), even if a ramesh or dinesh hailing from Bihar or UP invented or discovered a new thing, he cannot break the umpteen glass ceilings stacked against him presenting it to the wider community. In case of SN Bose, there happened to be Einstein, who concentrated on SN Bose's equations rather than SN Bose's grammatical mistakes.

I dont believe current educational system in India encourage people to think out of the box and go for solving problems beyond their realms. Professors and scientist do not take criticisms and do not encourage honest discussions and arguments against their own positions. There are some gems but a majority of the system do not take criticism positively and are hell bent against discussion. Everything goes by a wink and node. These kind of arrangment does not help in fostering good research.

Another major drawback is the exam system from school level. Students are not encouraged to think from the fundamental level. They directly apply the equation and calculate the numbers and report the result. Students are encouraged to think like engineers and more precisely like technicians (especially in IITs). So students dont get to apply their brain in a critical way. Without critical thinking brain cannot function in unchartered realms of science, which is necessary to arrive at Nobel prize winning solutions.

So Indians learn technical details and go into an environment which fosters discussion and critical thinking and there they shine, just as Theo pointed out.

The current Indian research environment also focuses in publishing more and more research papers, but not emcourage quality. That deserves a separate avenue to vent out. :-(

[SriKumar]

Lots of posts made ....on several different topics: langwidge, research, Nobull prize etc. Some random thoughts:

1 I think is it possible to teach technical stuff in a vernacular language but it not possible today, IMO, for the following reasons: lack of textbooks. Considering a 4-year engineering course will have anywhere from 30 to 50 different subjects. One would need textbooks in all those areas, even if the teacher is the ultimate teacher(which is not usually the case). A student absolutely needs atleast 1 textbook, usually several, in any subject- a human teacher alone is not enough IMO. I cannot think of even one college-level subject I have taken where I could rely solely on classroom instruction. I had to depend significantly on self-study and reading books.

THe other issue is terminology- assuming teacher is willing to teach a technical subject (Krebs cycle for anerobic respiration, or method for transmission of neural signals via diffusion of ions), one would have to come up with consistent set of terminology for range of compounds, processes etc. This is certaily possible, but needs a committe of sorts that churns out stuff for the long-term. Do-able, but unless this happens, technical education cannot be imparted in that language. And terminoloy is not just a matter of converting the nouns, entire processes have to be described and it has to make sense. OTher nations have done it....I have no idea how. Maybe they have committees for terminology, and committes to translate technical articles and books from English to a local language.
2 Big issue: Which language gets support? Hindi? What about the Southie languages...the southies will ask. How about Khasi, Shillong natives might ask?

3 Looking 'up' to the Nobel prize as a measure of competence and/or excellence in resaerch is a bit of a no-win situation, IMHO. The Nobel committe is private organization and they have their own criteria, quirks and perspectives and prejudices. I hope Indian scientific contribution is not measured solely (or even mainly) by the number of Nobel prize 'winners' (shouldn't that be awardees?). Additionally, the purist might argue 'how does one assess the importance of a piece of research'. (I am not defending the state of Indian scientific research- many posters here have opined on it, and in unflattering terms; all I saying is the the standard for measurement of desi work should not be the opinion of a small group of people sitting in a Nordic nation).

[gakakkad]

w.r.t Nobel , I had once posted the name of a few Indians who deserved to win the Nobel , but were overlooked ...SN Bose and Meghnad saha for instance...

I pointed out that the first test tube baby could have been an Indian ,but the west bengal government discredited the particular scientist and suicided him...of course the 2nd test tube baby was Indian ...it was born a few weeks after louise brown...but the guy who deviced the technique never got any credit ...

There were many others...


I can also point out many , who arguably never deserved to win Nobel...

micro RNA was discovered in CCMB...But the nobel went to the amreeki , who published his work 2 years after the CCMB scientists paper and even cited the guys paper in reference...

other thing w.r.t IITians ....they have more complacency than they ought to have...in Yindia the general mentality is to think that we have conquered the world once ,we clear jee or top the boards..but it is no big deal...I could probably coach someone to prepare for jee with probably 3-4 hours study time a day...anyone with average intelligence can do that....once in IIT if you don't work , than you perish...


good points made by srikumar ,bade and others...


anyway the argument started because Rorkee expelled , 72 ( ) people for underperforming and mediapimps pointed out that most were SC/ST ... Now we know that an SC/ST can get in by just answering some questions sporadically ...cut offs were negative in screening (called mains these dins , and 15% in mains (called JEE finals these dins , it has MCQs without negative marking , and some free response problems which are nowhere near as tough as the ones we had yesterdins ) ...Those 72 blamed it on everything including there inglees skills ...what they needed was no sympathy , but a whack in the mush...

[Supratik]

IIT students have to perform or perish. Unfortunately that is not the case with faculties. Teaching pressure is too much. I had argued many moons back that they should farm out underground teaching by hiring lecturers. In the US typically Ass Prof and up have very little teaching and that too in their area of specialization. In India a few have to teach everything spending at least 50-60% of their time. You need to hire more faculties so that the teaching load is less and faculties can focus on research. If you don't want to hire and fire you need to introduce a system of incentives so that the more motivated faculties can go ahead.

[Arjun]

Just not from IIT or usually in India. They have to leave to get to that level unfortunately.

IIT is probably still the top undergrad institution for Indians who have been elected members of NAS in the US since 2000. Subra Suresh, Shrinivas Kulkarni, Rakesh Jain. Surprisingly high representation for an institution that has very few pure science candidates.

[svenkat]

Theo saar has an axe to grind against hindu caste system,GOI,IITs etc.None of these is beyond criticism or is a holy cow.When someone claims that US and Europe had given universal literacy to girls by 1850,then one understands what that persons prejudices are.

Universal literacy is bare minimum.In itself,it does not ensure technical institutions,universities,industries,productivity.There are a whole host of other factors like trust,social cohesion,social capital etc apart from availability of natural resources etc.KL has a money order and plantation economy.80% of TNs 500+engineering colleges are worthless.Theo saar has never questioned the christist hegemony in schools and colleges.Whats their contribution to igniting any change?Basically the whiteys cleverly handed them over prime property and soft power influence.To expect any sort of honest introspection from such prejudiced people is a waste of time.

[durairaaj]

^ I think the above post is uncalled for personal attack. Theo has never discussed about religious aspects. Kindly request moderators to take note of this.

[Arjun]

Universal literacy is bare minimum.

I agree...would be interesting to hear from Theo what universal literacy has got to do with innovation at the highest levels.

[csaurabh]

IIT students have to perform or perish. Unfortunately that is not the case with faculties. Teaching pressure is too much.

???
90% IIT profs are very lousy teachers even if they do know their subject ( which is not always guaranteed ).
As per my understanding IIT profs have no motivation to teach. Most of their promotions, etc. is linked to number of published papers in journals. Only number of papers, not actual results. This results in too much blue sky/theoretical type thinking..

Of course a few do teach well, that's the exception..

Following answers by Debraj Chakrabarti ( from Quora ) pretty much sums it up..

I have the unique perspective of having been both a student (KGP-B Tech 1998) and a faculty (IITB from 2010 to 11) in the IIT system. The answers above give many important things to dislike regarding IITs.

As far as I can see it, the MAIN problem is that the system does not give any motivation or incentive for students or faculty to really excel in science or engineering. For example, an unsuspecting student is corralled into the department of mining or the department of textile engineering just based on the AIR and the need of the institute to fill up the seats so that Profs can justify their existence. Some poor girl has been studying Physics Chemistry and Maths for 2 years (even more) to get into IIT and had no idea that she was destined to be a textile engineer or metallurgist or whatever!

First, the JEE and AIR system already is a disincentive for any student who wants to think for himself and wants to decide what he wants to learn. But worse, once the students get in, the classes are mostly compulsory and many of them are super boring. This is because there is very little incentive for faculty to excel in teaching. AND there is no incentive for them to do any good research. With a few honourable exceptions, most research output at IITs is very mediocre. The Master's and Ph D programs (the pride of any self-respecting research university) are jokes.

Still, IITs will not only survive, but will expand and flourish. The reason is, their main goal is not to produce scientists and engineers, but to propel middle class kids to desirable goals -- software, management and finance jobs, grad school in the US, business school etc. Employers like the fact that these students know how to obey irrational orders without questioning (a skill they have mastered in 4 years on campus.)

What is amazing is that even after this a small fraction of students still care for learning!

What a terrible waste of talent and effort.

Like for most such questions, it all depends on who you are. The older, larger, IITs have faculty strengths in the 100s and the individual members must experience their careers very differently. Certainly, it depends on the department, program and particular IIT campus. But most of all, it depends on what a person expects from the system. If you are ready to keep expectations low, then you might even enjoy being an IIT professor.

I can only speak for myself. I was a faculty at IIT Bombay from 2010 to 2011 for one year in the Mathematics Department there. For me the one word answer to this question is "miserable." I left the place after that -- and did not regret it. I describe how I felt to be at IITB.

When I was working in the Maths Dept of IIT Bombay, the building in which the department is situated was undergoing repairs. The whole place was a construction site. The "office" where I was supposed to work was little better than a prison cell, which I had to share with a visiting faculty member. All the while there was unacceptable levels of noise and clouds of dust rising from the demolished parts of the building. All this went on for the full year. There was no proper furniture for the offices. Instead, old furniture was kept in the corridor, and from there, with the help of the departmental peon, one is supposed to chose what one wants. All this was on a long-term basis, i.e., for the entire period of one year. One cannot do mathematics without the very basic amenities -- in this case a peaceful and pleasant place to work. At the same time as these things happened, IITB was building the "Victor Menezes Convention Centre", a very modern and lavish facility for holding conferences etc. But there was no understanding that the Math Dept needed temporary space while work was being done in the Maths building.

I once asked the HOD (Prof. Murali Srinivasan, a perfect gentleman for whom I have the greatest respect) what I was supposed to do. He said, "Why don't you study at home?" Problem: I had not been given any quarters for the first 3 months in IIT Bombay. I was staying at the "Van Vihar" guest house. Every 15 days I got a letter saying that you have been overstaying at the guest house, so
I needed it to be signed by some Dean in the Main Building and return to the guest house people. After 3 months, they could not give me a campus house, but gave me an apartment in the IIT Market across from the main gate on the other side of the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli link road. This is hardly the peaceful campus life I was hoping for.

To get a computer, one had to go through the strange bureaucracy of the "rate contract." It took me 4 months to get mine. The departmental computer guy (N H K Bhaskar) was totally incompetent.


As for academic things -- I knew beforehand that I would be mostly isolated. But I did not realise before joining how much mediocrity and nonsense went on in the department. I taught M Sc students in both semesters I was there. It was definitely one of the brighter spots in my life at IITB teaching these kids -- but they were treated as second class citizens in the hierarchy of the institute --- the B Techs being the Brahmins. Similarly, in the hierarchy of departments in IITB, Maths is for most purposes a service department, and was treated accordingly. What was amazing was that many of my senior colleagues had internalized this point of view-- they were ready to defer to the wishes and needs of the Engineering departments, who were after all, the rightful owners of the institute.

The campus was full of greenery which I liked very much. It was also full of
feral cattle happily roaming about and answering to the call of nature. The infinity corridor, a famed covered walkway spanning most of the departments was in risk of falling down to pieces at any point of time and was propped up by steel supports. The buildings of the institute mostly date back to the 60s, but one would guess from their state that they dated from the reign of Sher Shah. A general state of neglect and apathy reigned everywhere.

I did not like it. I left it after one year. Last two years I have been working at a small research centre in Bangalore. Although I miss a few things about IITB, here I at least have the environment to carry out my work. After having acquired a first hand knowledge of the Indian academic community and its institutions, I am leaving the country for good in 2 months and taking up a tenure-track job in the US. Enough is enough.

[gakakkad]

so IITs just like every other indian educational insti , are just an extension of the macaulayite education system..

[Bade]

As for academic things -- I knew beforehand that I would be mostly isolated. But I did not realise before joining how much mediocrity and nonsense went on in the department. I taught M Sc students in both semesters I was there. It was definitely one of the brighter spots in my life at IITB teaching these kids -- but they were treated as second class citizens in the hierarchy of the institute --- the B Techs being the Brahmins. Similarly, in the hierarchy of departments in IITB, Maths is for most purposes a service department, and was treated accordingly. What was amazing was that many of my senior colleagues had internalized this point of view-- they were ready to defer to the wishes and needs of the Engineering departments, who were after all, the rightful owners of the institute.

This is a core issue and I thought it was only the IIT-M campus which suffered this outlook. IIT-Kgp and IIT-K had relatively better environs at least for Physics from what I heard from others.

Gakakkad, what is macaulyte about IIT's issues. It is a generic Indian problem and nothing to do with excessive British influence. As I have said many time before, this issue in specific used to be less in your face at least in Bengal compared to other places. I studied UG in a univ where both engineering and science students co-existed and at least the faculty did not treat us different, even if a few of the engg students carried an air of superiority in them.

[Bade]

This should be the base philosophy on how one measures abilities and with a lot of caveats. Not the usual "see Subbu is a PGM winner and he was also an IIT BTech grad" so all who made JEE cut has to be better than those who did not make it. I have no issue with IITians feeling proud of their alma mater or the fact they are a super selected bunch however constrained the selection process was. It is when others echo that mindlessly and even faculty promoting such views it becomes an issue.

The qualifying exam is designed to measure the breadth of students' knowledge in mathematics. While some students are able to pass the qualifying exam in one try, passing the exam early is mainly an indication that a student has attended an undergraduate university with a broad undergraduate program in mathematics. It is not a good predictor of the quality of the eventual PhD dissertation.

http://www.math.harvard.edu/graduate/in ... qualifying

[Amber G.]

Badeji and others -

Recently I had a chance to listen (and participate to some extent) panel discussion with a few IIT directors and some other notable people. Then there was also a talk given by David Gross (Nobel prize in Physics - and who is familiar with institutes in India) -- particularly directed to IIT crowd on how to build world class centers of scientific research. Also later I had a chance to talk to one of the directors(+ admin) in a meeting open to alumni of this institute only - to give our perspective and learn where these IIT's are going. .. There was also some panel discussion of other IIT related subjects. (eg "Can IIT produce a Ali Baba and a nobel' .. or how to give back to the country which gave us so much - no one forgets that all IIT education was virtually free for us, paid by Indian taxpayers -- common person who paid taxes on every small thing she bought).

A few things I learned (which I did not know before)

- The 5 original IIT's (these institutes can be proud to build such a good brand name) are going to help/mentor/provide resources etc to new campuses (lot of new campuses ). Modi's government supports this, and so do original IIT's directors. These is no reason that these new campuses will not become world class engineering/technical schools in coming years. (I was a little concern about diluting the quality of incoming students and or name brand but I am less concerned now)

- The focus of the original 5 IIT's will be (in addition to mentoring other IIT's) to transition into world class research institutes. Pure science - math - biology/medical etc.. each 5 IIT focusing on one (or more) core subject. IIT Kanpur, for example (in next 10-20 years) may become leading place to do Medical research.

- They are trying to get world class faculty, Labs and other items necessary to build a good research institutes. Looks like many are interested. I think these institutes can attract best faculty.

Meanwhile IIT name brand is still quite strong -- just a few examples -- Google's new CEO is an IIT alumni. When Therano's CEO Elizabeth Holmes (if you have not heard of her please do google her - most remarkable person I have seen in years - who got a standing ovation after a keynote talk -- was asked if she (her company) is hiring she replied "yes, of course..she is looking for best technical people - and mentioned that quite a few IITians are on her top leadership team.

(BTW a lot of silly statements and statistics like "90% of IIT professors are lousy" made here in this dhaga tells more about the poster than any institute - in fact 97% of those posters have very poor understanding of basic statistics to bring up made up statistics )

[csaurabh]

BTW a lot of silly statements and statistics like "90% of IIT professors are lousy" made here in this dhaga tells more about the poster than any institute - in fact 97% of those posters have very poor understanding of basic statistics to bring up made up statistics

They are lousy TEACHERS. IIT profs are very knowledgeable in general but this does not translate to good teaching skills.
I cannot understate how problematic this is. Bad teachers inevitably make students lose interest in the subject itself, which in turn leads to the 'package mentality' - ie. get any type of job which pays more or go abroad somehow.

[csaurabh]

Ultimately, the acid test for IITs as 'research universities' is the quality of its phds, postdocs, project engineers, permanent staff, technicians and other supporting staff. With a few exceptions, these people are almost uniformly poor- most often products of Tier 2/Tier 3 colleges and that too not the best ones at that but often those who 'didn't get job'. Not surprisingly, they are not in a mental state to get things done. Earlier MTechs also used to be that way, but these days GATE is very competitive. However due to time constraints Mtechs/UGs don't get much research done, and it is not maintained either so it falls into an 'academic black hole'.

Even if a good faulty gets there, he has little support infra to speak of. I think faculties are not the main problem as far as research is concerned. Most faculty are good to excellent researchers.

The other problem is the research agenda itself. Blue sky research and publishing papers is fine-- to some extent. But the main thrust should be on developing some products ( developing products already developed by the west and currently being imported should not be discouraged) and pushing them into the market as soon as possible. This requires building up connections with industry and entrepreneurs as well as the public in general, which academia is often disconnected from.

IITs should not be shy about promoting their research agenda and stating clearly what it is about. Currently as far as UGs are concerned, IITs research programs are kind of an embarrassment. No one talks about them. No one knows about them. There needs to be some kind of outreach, where the faculties can clearly state, this is our agenda, this is what we accomplished, this is where we failed, these are the kinds of problems we are looking at, this is our funding, what can be achieved under the circumstances, everything. See if your own best students are not buying your research agenda, there is an indication there must be something wrong with it. ( of course IIT profs being bad teachers doesn't help ).

CTARA ( Centre for Technology Advancement in Rural Areas ) has more detailed philosophy on why the research agenda of IITs is misguided. It can also be summarized by what many students ( UG & PG ) have told me : We study and study, but product is not coming.

Additionally something really needs to be done about the teaching. It is almost embarrassingly bad. Not only does it turn students completely off the subject, but it leads to academic dishonesty of epic proportions. At a conservative estimate, at least 75% of students at IITB copy assignments and 20% cheat in exams ( these are not made up statistics, we counted ). And the students can hardly be blamed. They already have a disinclination towards academics to begin with ( since they want to go for finance, management, software, etc. jobs ) and then put under high course load and poor teaching. Quota is another complicating factor.

[Theo_Fidel]

WRT products, plenty of new products are coming out of India. Every factory has its own design lab. I asked this very question to the Samsung engineers at the Samsung factory in Chennai.

He said they have never tried to contact IIT-M as their product research/improvement has to do with engineering a new solenoid or a new type of hose or a software logic. His opinion was IIT-M is not interested in these types of things. Which was shocking to me if true.

[Amber G.]

They are lousy TEACHERS. IIT profs are very knowledgeable in general but this does not translate to good teaching skills.
I cannot understate how problematic this is. Bad teachers inevitably make students lose interest in the subject itself, which in turn leads to the 'package mentality' - ie. get any type of job which pays more or go abroad somehow.

WoW!!

(Plus mathematical sounding measurements "90% of IIT professors are lousy" --
and generalization claiming to use "acid tests" to present as "facts" (or expert opinions - which is false in my humble opinion) like..

Ultimately, the acid test for IITs as 'research universities' is the quality of its phds, postdocs, project engineers, permanent staff, technicians and other supporting staff. With a few exceptions, these people are almost uniformly poor-

REALLY????

I am curious what is the basis of this kind of pseudo-expert opinion? (Apart from you claiming that this is so)

As I said, to me at least these kind of statements tell more about the author's prejudices (and LACK of understanding of simple statistics when one drops a figure like "90%") than give ANY meaning-full assessment of quality of teachers. As Pauli would say--

Such statements are so absurd that they are not even wrong . .

I will be very much interested in showing ANY study which shows that 90% of IIT professors are lousy..

(Also curious as to see per you which school(s) produces these "non-lousy" professors??

(Folks - I, have to admit, like many I am sure, have been taught by these professors - and know many colleagues who, with proven record, are among the best. How effective these teachers have been, can also be judged by how good students they have produced - and they have produced such students. And so "we are lousy only" kind of statements, with no basis, do not impress me. And yes.. in fact I find those kind of statements without meaning, beyond silly, if not outright absurd.

***

Csaurabhji I have a challenge for you, if you are willing to accept. In GDF math dhaga (<see link>) there is a high-school level math problem. I would like to see if you will present a solution which a good
(non-lousy) teacher can/ought to produce. (The kind of solution which is easy to understand and make concepts crystal clear to students). I look forward to see your solution and wait for 3 days to see if you can illustrate what kind of teaching a good teacher can do. Please put the solution in math dhaga for everyone to see. (The problem requires only High-School math concepts - I am curious to see what is your basis of being a good teacher, so any response (or lack of response) will be helpful)

Regards.

[Amber G.]

Posting from https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/google-g ... plash=true -- a very nice article..some of my thoughts but articulated much better -

The real credit should go to real "Indian Education System" .. my parents generation, much more significant than an IIT or MIT..

Posting excerpts:

An entire generation sacrificed. And Google gets its new CEO!

Indian CEOs and America’s blessings

Yesterday, all the news channels, social media platforms, and tabloids worldwide were splashed with the news of Google announcing India-born and bred Sundar Pichai as its new CEO. It’s the second year in a row that an Indian has been handed over the reins of one of the most powerful companies of the world after Satya Nadella was made the CEO of Microsoft last year. Nothing can be more inspiring and motivating than the fact that these guys who rose from the modest soils of the Indian middle class are today poised to rule and impact the entire world.

While I was reading about Sundar’s achievements today, an unfortunate thought had dawned upon me - that he would have never got this big an opportunity had he stayed in India. So, I subconsciously began to admire America for being such a great country in supporting entrepreneurialism without which perhaps there would not have been the Google as we know today and there would not have been a Sundar Pichai to inspire millions.

And just about then, a sentence that popped out from my father (who was sitting beside me and listening to my raving of Sundar’s life) exposed something that, in this hour of rejoice, may have been entirely forgotten. It’s something that is slowly but surely fizzling out of this world. It’s something without which there would not have been a Nadella or a Pichai, to ours and Google’s or Microsoft’s disadvantage.

It’s the generation that we grew up holding hands of. It’s our parents.

When I was raving about the above to my wife, my father chipped in and said “It’s really great; his parents’ hard work and sacrifice has paid off well"

When guys like Sundar, Satya and my own generation were growing up it was the period of pre-economic liberalization - when India was considered as a Third world country. The middle class used to struggle to meet ends. Going to a restaurant for that generation used to be a luxury – a once in a blue moon affair. Telephones and cars used to be a few owners’ pride and a whole bunch of neighbours’ envy. And foreign vacations? Phew! Those perhaps used to be the dreams of many from that generation but sadly for a lot of them it never turned into a reality.

No. Not because that generation could not have afforded all of these. They surely could have saved and used the money to realize some of their dreams and desires. But then they made a choice. They sacrificed! And made us their dreams! And our education their desire! That entire generation had put their blood, soul and money into just one thing - our education; at the expense of their own personal desires; often passing away without ever seeing their own personal dreams come true. It was this sacrifice that has made you and me, and from amongst us has emerged the Nooyis (Pepsi CEO Indra Nooyi), the Pichais and the Nadellas.

Our parents’ generation created a double ripple effect of sacrifice and education. Almost no one was spared from that storm. No one family had the guts to make such sacrifice on their own. It was a uniform and team act. Everyone one was into it together and influenced each other to do so. The entire country was gripped by that fervour.

And for this reason, Sundar Pichai (or for that matter Satya Nadella, Indra Nooyi, Adobe CEO Shantanu Narayen), does not just owe his success to his IIT engineering degree, or Stanford University or Google. He owes it to that entire generation, including his parents, that created the culture of extreme personal sacrifice in favour of educating us.

I owe it to that generation.

You owe it to that generation.

And today, Google owes it to that generation.

[deejay]

^^^ Thank You for sharing the article Amber G. I think we all realise that it is true for our parents generation across the board and for them it was their life's mission that their children get the best education. The above article is a small recognition of a life time of sacrifices.

My many pranaams to my parents and millions like them across homes in India. I just hope to be able to help my children like my parents did for me.

[csaurabh]

AmberG. - I have attempted to answer your question, but I am not good at theoretical mathematics. But that is exactly my point. Neglecting practical engineering in favour of giving over importance to mathematical theory is the actual problem. Yes, this sort of thing appeals to professors and maybe a small number of students, but the vast majority do not care about this. They are far more interested in solving a practical problem like making a prosthetic device for a handicapped person, or something like that.

I do not hate the IITs. Spent many years there , still go back some times. But far too often they have acted like a Western university that just happens to be situated in India and completely disconnected from any of our own problems. And this is reflected in the quality of teaching and in research. Again I am not talking about exceptions but of the vast majority.

Also here are some thoughts by Director IIT-KGP. I think he expresses the same sentiments.

[Vayutuvan]

Csaurabh without certain amount of foundations in all areas, no one but no one can just simply jump in and start designing high tech devices like the ones you are mentioning.

I was taking to a bright IiT UG who was doing a phd in the U.S. It is in Engg/science. In the conversation this person mentions that they take the observations and plug them into MAtlab. So I was curious so iasked them what routines do they use. They say it is caled LSQ and get the observation fit some function. My next question was so how much linear algebra did you? You must gave studied then least squares. They say no I never heard of least squares.

People need to first lear to walk before thinking of going head to head with Milkha Singh, PT Usha , or Sri APJA Kalam (who along with a few colleagues and a few researchers from medical community developed a stent in India which has been used in Vivo and commercially).

[Bade]

Fundamentals are as equally important as innovation (for practical use) to be sustainable in the long run. An Edison might have been able to use trial and error method and a factory of apprentices to make his innovations, but that is not the only way and does not always work.

We have to move away from this so called Macaulite label of western education. There is nothing of this sort in reality. This persistent thought among the current vocal groups is alarming and will turn out to be harmful in the long run. Technology and Science has no cultural baggage, people who see those ghosts are paranoid beyond redemption, imo. Good luck to them, but I would run away from any place which wants to experiment this non-macaulite (whatever that is) method in the STEM fields.

[Vayutuvan]

Bade: In certain science areas, knowing too much will be a dampener. But in Physcial sciences tthe more knowledge one has the better one is going to be. This could be apocryphal but Einstein supposed to have said at one time that any amount of statistics is not enough.

Today I would say any amount of Linear Algebra is not enough. In fact that is the subject of Representation theory where all mathematical objects and functions can be represented as linear maps and matrices (very loosely speaking).

[Bade]

The areas are vast to conquer by one, so it is even more important that certain fundamentals are grilled in early and sound. It is not about quickness of the draw of the gun, but about being able to apply it consistently and intelligently that matter.

One can always learn more as the need arises, or collaborate across disciplines to fill in the gaps. So learn the basics and then move to innovation with constant learning or collaboration. This has been the secret of success in the west. It is not like every researcher is the epitome in the collection of knowledge as a single entity, but the knowledge body an institution hosts is what makes all of them excellent. India has to work on similar lines.

There is no other 'rahasya' to crack the indic way vs the macaulite way. This distraction will turn wasteful for a few generations if pursued, before seeing the truth.

[Bade]

Regarding quality of teachers, I have found the same proportion of boring vs inspiring teachers both in IIT systems and elsewhere in India as well as Grad school in the US. So I do not know what Saurabh means by IITs have x% of teachers who are boring. It is not unique to one system of education. Some teachers can be more innovative, or inspiring like Feynman is known for. But they are always rare anywhere. Some of it comes from experience, or some in born talent to communicate well.

[Vayutuvan]

It is not like every researcher is the epitome in the collection of knowledge as a single entity, but the knowledge body an institution hosts is what makes all of them excellent. India has to work on similar lines.

One of the most important insights I have seen on this thread till now. Of course, the unversity system in the US is setup for that - all colleges (grouped by disciplines) are at a central campus with large enough student body, grad students, and faculty to pool the resources from all over the state and share the infra and equipment/labs.

IMHO one fix for India is to close down most colleges - private STEM (mostly engg. and few odd medical colleges) that have grown up like mushrooms, and put more money into setting up central universities on the lines of BHU. No three year UG in any stream, no sub-specializations in major engg./science streams at UG level, no UG medical degrees.

[csaurabh]

Technology and Science has no cultural baggage, people who see those ghosts are paranoid beyond redemption, imo. Good luck to them, but I would run away from any place which wants to experiment this non-macaulite (whatever that is) method in the STEM fields.

Macaulayism has two problems:

1. Boring mugging based memorization/ direct application of formula types without thinking
2. Complete disconnect with India's past, in terms of art, literature, philosophy, etc. and substituting instead a bunch of western stuff ( like Shakespeare ) and 'secular' nonsense ( like Aryan invasion )

STEM fields suffer from the first, and 'Arts/Humanities' from the second.

[negi]

Well actually I have a theory based on my observations but I am not sure how well does this apply to other countries , in our country the way education system works is after the 10th standard 3 buckets are created the exact % cut off could vary from school to school but 99.99% of the times the first bucket i.e. the one with highest % always takes PCB/PCM/PCMB/PCMCS combination , followed by commerce and then finally arts/humanities . Now I personally do not think that a students grade tell a complete picture about his/her personality but what happens is that the weakest (read spoilt kids with no supervision, poor with no resources ) also end up in this bucket due to the % based segmentation.


Now I am not saying that the ones in the third bracket are dumb but issue is these very people make up our MSM and write our history books and even amidst these it is the spolit brat son of/Daughter of rich dad types who rise up through the ranks in the MSM and other page 3 type careers so it does not surprise me that majority of the folks in this business cannot even construct or argue a case based on facts and reason , it is always about drama and misplaced emotions. Now there could be a miniscule percentage of folks in this bucket who might have taken Arts because they like it and not only because that is what they had to pursue because of their 10th std % but they have to struggle a lot in comparison to their rich/influential counterparts to rise up in their field hence we do not see or hear from this kind often on TV.

[vera_k]

IMHO one fix for India is to close down most colleges - private STEM (mostly engg. and few odd medical colleges) that have grown up like mushrooms, and put more money into setting up central universities on the lines of BHU. No three year UG in any stream, no sub-specializations in major engg./science streams at UG level, no UG medical degrees.

Private colleges are affiliated to a local university, and have access to university resources already. The universities could do more to provide interdisciplinary classes and flexibility to choose what students can study. IIT/AIIMS type schools can be folded into the university system to give them similar access.

[Amber G.]

Regarding quality of teachers, I have found the same proportion of boring vs inspiring teachers both in IIT systems and elsewhere in India as well as Grad school in the US. So I do not know what Saurabh means by IITs have x% of teachers who are boring. It is not unique to one system of education. Some teachers can be more innovative, or inspiring like Feynman is known for. But they are always rare anywhere. Some of it comes from experience, or some in born talent to communicate well.

Badeji/cs and others..

Yes. Feynman was good. (I have been to many of his lectures in person, so I will agree with you.) But even Feynman was opposed/criticized, some times vehemently about his teaching, and advised how to teach "correctly" by "self recognized experts" (who, in my opinion knew much less about how to teach physics).

Personally when I look back and think about which teachers influenced/taught me most, some stand out. They include, in no particular sequence, people like CN Yang (group theory, Riemannian Geometry/Gen. relativity course was very goo), ML Mehta (physics/math many topics), JN Kapoor (math), TV Ramkrishnan (mathematical physics)), DS Kothari.. and my parents/elder brothers who taught me never to be afraid to learn new things..The common thing among such gurus I admired was simplicity --making even the most difficult subjects easy and fun to understand. It is not exactly the subject matter but the "methods" or insight on how to look at the problem.

***

Now let me articulate the problems I have, with csaurabh type arguments. Let me do that by just giving an example...
(Sorry if my language seem harsh but no disrespect is intended)
---- example of "expert looking" opinions, where one has to call out the bluff --

Additionally something really needs to be done about the teaching. It is almost embarrassingly bad. Not only does it turn students completely off the subject, but it leads to academic dishonesty of epic proportions . At a conservative estimate , at least 75% of students at IITB copy assignments and 20% cheat in exams ( these are not made up statistics, we counted ).

"Not made up statistics"
Huh?? .. REALLY????

Please do note that author does NOT mention that it is his/her personal experience but generalizes to WHOLE IITB students.. so I have to ask:

Who are these -all knowing impeccable - "we" who 'counted'??? What is the sample size to deduce that at least 20% "cheat" in exams? And if this "counting" is verified, published, or reported?

More important in my experience if a people really cheated then I flunk the student. Period. I am sure for most of us, "cheating" is ground of automatic F grade.

I submit that really "academic dishonesty of epic proportion " is to make such wild claims, without any basis. If such claim has evidence than it is equally dishonest not to held those students responsible.

***

Another example - a personal one but I am sure there are *many* such examples..

I know one person, a world class physicist, was recruited for IIT job in 1970 while he had a good/tenured position in a top US university. (BTW I knew that he had an offer just after his PhD from some industry which had 3x times the salary his academic position in US was paying - He was attracted to IIT not because of the money but his gurus in India convinced him). He was also recognized as one of the best teacher according to student evaluation in US.

He stayed in IIT for all his career ( retired but officially, I think, still connected to the institute). He tried and built the department by getting and retaining good faculty. People like Vinod Khosla publicly thank the type of training he got by such teachers. Remember someone was talking about "acid-test".. see the type of students IIT produced over the last 40-50 years.
(Of course, this is unique but by NO means an exception -- the faculty I had in IIT Kanpur was, taking all factors was first rate IMO)

It is fairly easy and IMO disgraceful to make great pronouncements about how "lousy" the teachers are or how dishonest the "students" are - specially when it is so easy to do it. If you think you can do a better job DO IT., if you want to follow and learn then follow. otherwise get out of the way!!! Let other do what they want to do.

[Bade]

Good teachers can come in many forms. Some stand and deliver impeccable lectures. Some who may feel boring in the lecture mode, can be great one on one, or in small class groups which at least in the IITs and in my UG class in JU was true. So we got a lot of individual attention or interaction even outside of classroom.

[Amber G.]

AmberG. - I have attempted to answer your question, but I am not good at theoretical mathematics. But that is exactly my point. Neglecting practical engineering in favour of giving over importance to mathematical theory is the actual problem. Yes, this sort of thing appeals to professors and maybe a small number of students, but the vast majority do not care about this. They are far more interested in solving a practical problem like making a prosthetic device for a handicapped person, or something like that.

Csaurabhji - Thanks for the reply. I was actually quite surprised that you thought of that problem not worthy of giving importance. I could not disagree with you more. Absolutely disagree. Here is why.

- ANY kind of engineering/innovation needs good understanding and METHODS of mathematics/physics.-- Precisely the kind of math which is scoffed by aam admai. Some people almost feel proud when they say they are not good in math. In my experience those who are not good in math are never good (relatively speaking, compared to those who have good fundamental math skills), let alone exceptional, in "practical engineering"..

- This the reason, in my opinion, any good institutes look at math aptitude as a guide to admit students. 99+% probability that MIT/Caltech/Stanford will take any student who does good in math doing precisely the kind of a problem mentioned - sort of problems routinely appear in an olympiad in India or US. Any one who finds these kind of problems fun and easy (and a few who do not hate math do find them interesting) - I can virtually guarantee that he/she have no trouble getting into any IIT. JEE is breeze if one's math is good. (More about background of that particular problem and some discussion later)

- Speaking of "a prosthetic device for a handicapped person", you may be interested to know that, just recently I attended a panel discussion (this is IIT leadership conference in Santa Clara - the title " Innovation At the Bottom of the Pyramid") with Armand Neukermans, (Director of Jaipur Foot) along with other people like Manu Prakash, (inventor of the $1 paper microscope and water computer), Krista Donaldson, CEO of D-Rev; Raj Melville, ED of the Deshpande Foundation were among them. Of course the big star (and standing ovation) was Elizabeth Holmes which is going to disrupt the whole health care industry by providing REAL practical and most useful devices to aam aadmi in India or US..

Please do read this about the above discussion in here:

Health Care Devices for Poor Highlighted at IIT Conference

Krista Donaldson, chief executive officer of D-Rev, demonstrated the Jaipur Knee, an innovative, low-cost prosthetic based on the Jaipur Foot, which helps amputees to walk, squat and bend their knees. The Jaipur Knee – also known as the ReMotion Knee – is being launched in India now, said Donaldson, adding: “There is a huge population of people living on $4 a day that are currently using bamboo staffs to walk.”
Donaldson described the Jaipur Knee as “a world-class product. We believe that – regardless of your income – you deserve a high-quality product.”
Armand Neukermans, U.S. resident director of the Jaipur Foot project, said: “I have never had a product that worked so well.” Neukermans connected the Bhagwan Mahaveer Viklang Sahayata Samiti – which has fitted 1.3 million amputees with the Jaipur Foot free of charge – with Stanford University, which has developed the Jaipur Knee and Hand.

My point is, I believe, these people can NEVER do anything close to what they are doing, if they ignore/do not give importance to math. These designs do not come out while doing some "practical engineering".. but after some serious mathematical modeling like .. this paper from three IIT'ans..

Mathematical modelling and field trials of
an inexpensive endoskeletal above-knee prosthesis

[Amber G.]

Let me make one comment because I think it is important and there have been quite some discussion about how to "innovate" and solve "practical problems" and criticizing "mathematical theory/Western philosophy/not_useful_methods)in_ones_opinion..etc..

Some one (extremely successful entrepreneur), who has study these things a lot said it best :
>>
In recent history NO major/breakthrough (we are not counting incremental innovations) came from traditional sources. For example nuclear power was not discovered by petroleum (or current-energy) engineers who were looking for cheaper/more efficient way to generate power. It was discovered by physicists who were working in completely different field.
(many such examples - CAT scan, MRI, Elizabeth Holme's lab on a chip (did not come from blood testing companies) ...Heck even email was not innovated by post-office..)

[csaurabh]

More important in my experience if a people really cheated then I flunk the student. Period. I am sure for most of us, "cheating" is ground of automatic F grade.

I think you do not know how bad the situation is these days.. I was TA at IITB during my masters degree 2011-2013
The vast majority ( ~80% ) of the students are simply not interested in the subject. Period. They are busy programming Android apps, python, playing stock market simulator, preparing for CAT/GRE/IAS/etc., planning a startup ( usually e-commerce or web based service of some sort ). The only thing they want is a grade some how, and dishonesty is fine.

These days they will brazenly talk to each other in exams in front of invigilators. Copying of assignments is pretty much standard. They resort to shoddy deceptions like changing variables. Now all dishonesty can't be detected 100% - it just looks sometimes that one has noted down the steps and got the result instantly but that is not 100% proof. Our policy at that time was to give a zero in that particular question. Maybe that is not harsh enough, but when the scale of the problem is so large what can you do? Fail the entire class? Well that is what one Prof did at IIT-KGP after being driven to the wall by such antics. It was in the news some time back.

This behavior by students is not entirely unjustified. It could be said it is a reaction to poor teaching and irrelevance of the subject.
You can look up posts on Dheeraj Sanghis blog and on Quora ( by students and profs ) to find out what is going on..

[csaurabh]

- ANY kind of engineering/innovation needs good understanding and METHODS of mathematics/physics.-- Precisely the kind of math which is scoffed by aam admai. Some people almost feel proud when they say they are not good in math. In my experience those who are not good in math are never good (relatively speaking, compared to those who have good fundamental math skills), let alone exceptional, in "practical engineering"..

- This the reason, in my opinion, any good institutes look at math aptitude as a guide to admit students. 99+% probability that MIT/Caltech/Stanford will take any student who does good in math doing precisely the kind of a problem mentioned - sort of problems routinely appear in an olympiad in India or US. Any one who finds these kind of problems fun and easy (and a few who do not hate math do find them interesting) - I can virtually guarantee that he/she have no trouble getting into any IIT. JEE is breeze if one's math is good. (More about background of that particular problem and some discussion later)

I never said math was 'not important'. I am fairly good at math, at least at IIT-JEE level.
It is just not the only thing that is important. The problem arises when the math is given exaggerated importance at the expense of any kind of practical application, or the practical difficulties that are encountered while trying to implement something.
At MIT/Caltech/Stanford, you have excellent theoretical /mathematical people AND you have some experimenters / practical engineers, and they are all talking to each other. In IITs the latter category is very small and they are not talking to each other.

Let me ask you this, when is the last time you saw a professor intently design an experiment and go to the lab and carry it out? Very, very rare.

[gakakkad]

i ll not be surprised if what csaurabh says is true...med schools have it equally bad...in fact even worse...

[Theo_Fidel]

csaurabh,
Things were like this back in my time even. IIT fellows were planning their USA college application and their World Bank career by second year itself, all planning a quick exit. For some reason world bank was big back then. I have not met anyone who says it was different. I even remember hearing about folks copying answers.
---------------------------

BTW IMHO you can know all the funda's and still be a unusable worker. And who gets to decide what the funda's are anyway. Sounds like yet another gate keeping choice that is meant to exclude all those who disagree with you. When hiring aptitude to learn and interest in the career choice is more important at least in my field. What matters is what the code and the adopted models/assumptions tell you and your ability to 'thread the needle', as it were, of the best possibilities. And in the immortal words of Trignometrix 'I have even put up some insulae that are still standing..." .

[vera_k]

Allahabad HC orders UP officials, politicians to send their kids to government primary schools

Hope SC makes this applicable all over India.