Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 17 Jul 2011 12:50

These are potent aircraft with 500 AIM-120 C7 missiles( why do Pakis need so many missiles).

to fight the bunnies

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 18 Jul 2011 09:45

gents current afm has a decent article on PN naval arm and on the recent incident at mehran will scan and post it up today...

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 18 Jul 2011 10:31

Has anyone read the book Line of Control- A Thriller on the Coming War in Asia? by Mainak Dhar?
it is available on Kindle @ Amazon.http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004P1J0Y2
It has got good reviews...

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 19 Jul 2011 17:37

Article in AFM about TSP Naval Arm
http://ifile.it/kqsl0ht/TSP%20NAVAL%20ARM.zip

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 19 Jul 2011 22:00

andy B wrote:Article in AFM about TSP Naval Arm http://ifile.it/kqsl0ht/TSP%20NAVAL%20ARM.zip

Thanks Andy, very insightful. Indeed PN's Air Arm is potent. I wonder how much uptime these platforms have, the actual state should be a lot worse than they are depicted.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2011 01:00

Aditya_V wrote:ANy idea what is the current strength of Paki RF-16 fleet, Nos, squadron where based. These are potent aircraft with 500 AIM-120 C7 missiles( why do Pakis need so many missiles). These represent a potent threat and need to be taken out very fast in any war scenario.

How are they planning to pay for this second batch of Block 52 aircraft? With monopoly money? They don't even have enough money to pay for the first batch.

Aditya, the Pakistan Air Force ordered the C-5 variant and not the C-7 model. A big difference. The former is still a potent missile...but does not feature the longer range or better homing capabilities of the latter.

500 is a good number for them, because all their F-Solahs will be equipped to carry them. The A/B variants are all being upgraded thanks to Turkey and the US.

The Pakistan Air Force has received a total of 72 F-Solah aircraft to date --> 40 Solahs (Block 15 A/B variant) in the 1980s, 14 Solahs in the late 2000s (Block 15 OCU variant) + 18 Block 52 Solahs.

Nine aircraft (http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Airc ... N/F-16.htm) have been written off in accidents over the years...so that leaves them with a fleet of 63 aircraft. If they exercise the option for 18 more Block 52s, it will increase their total fleet strength to 81 aircraft + give them an opportunity to raise a fourth squadron. The 63 aircraft are currently divided into 3 squadrons, which are;

- No.5 Falcons (based @ Jacobabad) - Block 52 variant
- No.9 Griffins (based @ Sargodha) - Block 15 variant
- No.11 Arrows (based @ Sargodha) - Block 15 variant

If a fourth squadron is raised, it will be more than likely be at Jacobabad itself.

P.S. As a sidenote, contrary to what they say in public, JF-17 Fundaar is not meeting expectations....thus the reason for additional F-Solahs. Much like their Navy, they are aiming for denial....in this case denial of airspace. Dominating the airspace...now that is the IAF's area of expertise

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 03:56

What is the remaining life on those older F-16s? Even some of The post 9/11 f-16s were from ex USAF stock as well as storage, all this affects their availability? Any idea on the uptime or annual hours of Paki F-16s?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 03:58

Why will lakers pay for solahs? Uncle is there to give bhakshees which would then be turned around to pay for these! Khan might throw in some missiles after each GUBO session!!!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jul 2011 04:15

P.S. As a sidenote, contrary to what they say in public, JF-17 Fundaar is not meeting expectations....

THAT is blasphemous. You just lost the 72.

thus the reason for additional F-Solahs. Much like their Navy, they are aiming for denial....in this case denial of airspace. Dominating the airspace...now that is the IAF's area of expertise

That is why the Pakis want strategic depth via Afghanistan.

IAF will deny them their own air space!!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 05:36

Strategic depth! My foot, The Taliban is crushing Paki balls, they need to run to India to gain strategic depth from the Taliban. Paki goose is getting fried on a slow flame! Dunno who is controlling the knob!!!

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2011 07:06

Shrinivasan wrote:What is the remaining life on those older F-16s? Even some of The post 9/11 f-16s were from ex USAF stock as well as storage, all this affects their availability? Any idea on the uptime or annual hours of Paki F-16s?

They will flog the MLU F-Solahs to the hilt, albeit not as much as their Fundaars or other aircraft. The first batch of 40 aircraft + the 14 post 9/11 F-Solahs will have some significant hours on the airframe (similar to our Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s). These MLU F-16s will be used primarily for air defence of Pakistani air space and escorting strike aircraft in Indian airspace.

Their "golden" Block 52s will be left for strategic tasks (i.e. nuclear strike or deep penetration strike of strategic targets) and will have very few flight hours on them, to reduce stress on the airframe. F-Solah simulators - which the Pakistan Air Force has (http://www.f-16.net/news_article604.html) - will also bring down the number of flight hours needed. However I doubt the pilots who are flying them need any flight simulator training, rather the pilots who fly these "golden" Solahs will be the best the PAF has (i.e. graduates of Combat Commanders School....similar to our TACDE @ Maharajpur AFS, Gwalior or the US Navy's Top Gun school). Newbies will not even be allowed near them. They are far too valuable to be lost to pilots who are still rookies and learning the ropes. Check out this list of the PAF pilots who have 1000+ hours on the F-16;

http://www.f-16.net/index.php?module=pa ... try:eq:195
*Please note the above link has two pages...scroll below to see page 2.

A number of the pilots (the retd ones do not count of course) - if not all - in the above list are more than likely CCS graduates and will be the chosen few to fly the Block 52 F-Solah. When a new type joins the PAF, usually the entire squadron converts to the type...this is a step in a different direction for them.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 07:23

Rakesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:What is the remaining life on those older F-16s? Even some of The post 9/11 f-16s were from ex USAF stock as well as storage, all this affects their availability? Any idea on the uptime or annual hours of Paki F-16s?
They will flog the MLU F-Solahs to the hilt, albeit not as much as their Fundaars or other aircraft. The first batch of 40 aircraft + the 14 post 9/11 F-Solahs will have some significant hours on the airframe (similar to our Mirage 2000s and MiG-29s). These MLU F-16s will be used primarily for air defence of Pakistani air space and escorting strike aircraft in Indian airspace.

Bulk of Paki F-16s are the older pre 9/11 variants which have been flogged, so their sortie rate should be abysmal!! Dunno if Pakees stock parts like in Desh.
the first block of newer ones received after 9/11 were from storage facility in Tuscon, AZ, correct? how many of these newer birds are really NEW?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2011 07:27

Shrinivasan wrote:Bulk of Paki F-16s are the older pre 9/11 variants which have been flogged, so their sortie rate should be abysmal!! Dunno if Pakees stock parts like in Desh.
the first block of newer ones received after 9/11 were from storage facility in Tuscon, AZ, correct? how many of these newer birds are really NEW?

They are going in for an upgrade similar to our MiG-29 upgrade....and will pack quite a punch, much like our upgraded MiG-29s or Mirage 2000s will.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 07:27

Rakesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:What is the remaining life on those older F-16s? Even some of The post 9/11 f-16s were from ex USAF stock as well as storage, all this affects their availability? Any idea on the uptime or annual hours of Paki F-16s?
A number of the pilots (the retd ones do not count of course) - if not all - in the above list are more than likely CCS graduates and will be the chosen few to fly the Block 52 F-Solah. When a new type joins the PAF, usually the entire squadron converts to the type...this is a step in a different direction for them.

Don't you think allowing ONLY senior pilots and uber cool Pakees to fly Block-52 birds is counter productive?
Why the whole squadron converts to the new fighter, because these guys are the Creme-de-la-creme.
doesn't the IAF use a mixture of new and old pilots in its SU30MKI squadrons?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 07:29

Rakesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Bulk of Paki F-16s are the older pre 9/11 variants which have been flogged, so their sortie rate should be abysmal!! Dunno if Pakees stock parts like in Desh.
the first block of newer ones received after 9/11 were from storage facility in Tuscon, AZ, correct? how many of these newer birds are really NEW?
They are going in for an upgrade similar to our MiG-29 upgrade....and will pack quite a punch, much like our upgraded MiG-29s or Mirage 2000s will.

if they go for upgrades, they will come back with software seal, this is another reason Pakees have been slow with ugrades. Apart from the lack of Bhaksheesh and the deep shit-hole they have sunk themselves into.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2011 08:49

Shrinivasan wrote:Don't you think allowing ONLY senior pilots and uber cool Pakees to fly Block-52 birds is counter productive?
Why the whole squadron converts to the new fighter, because these guys are the Creme-de-la-creme.
doesn't the IAF use a mixture of new and old pilots in its SU30MKI squadrons?

Pakistan is NOT India. They can't afford 270 Su-30MKIs + 200 MMRCA + FGFA....they just don't have the cash for it. With the limited resources they have, only the best in the PAF will get to fly them. They can't afford to risk it...at least not now.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jul 2011 09:17

The F-16 pilots in PAF have always come from other squadrons after considerable number of flying hours under the belt. The normal route for good pilots is F-7-->Mirage-->F-16. The better ones can make directly to Mirage. But no rookies from academy into F-16.

Another point - IMO, not all/majority of pilots in F-1 squadron are likely to be CCS. The reason being, CCS is more than top-end combat flying (as it TACDE), it is also an academy which trains Combat Leaders in employment of these aircrafts. So, these squadrons are likely to have a bit higher percentage of CCS qualified pilots but not majority; those who pass CCS and do not fit into Squadron hierarchy, will move into other squadrons.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 09:43

Rakesh wrote:
Shrinivasan wrote:Don't you think allowing ONLY senior pilots and uber cool Pakees to fly Block-52 birds is counter productive?
Why the whole squadron converts to the new fighter, because these guys are the Creme-de-la-creme.
doesn't the IAF use a mixture of new and old pilots in its SU30MKI squadrons?
Pakistan is NOT India. They can't afford 270 Su-30MKIs + 200 MMRCA + FGFA....they just don't have the cash for it. With the limited resources they have, only the best in the PAF will get to fly them. They can't afford to risk it...at least not now.

So Rakesh, what happens if the beards convert a handfull of these uber cool TFTA pilots into Beards - As the Air Marshall lamented in the wikileaks cable? they'll have less TFTA pilots to fly their solahs... precious solahs, still few precious pilots... In SDRELand unlike Khanland, we have twice the number of pilots as planes (twice the required number, in some platforms like SU/Jag/M2K, even more). In Khanland, they have more planes than pilots.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 09:46

rohitvats wrote:The F-16 pilots in PAF have always come from other squadrons after considerable number of flying hours under the belt. The normal route for good pilots is F-7-->Mirage-->F-16. The better ones can make directly to Mirage.

This appears to be yet another instance of maintaining TFTAness, elitism, tony clubism widely prevalent in Paki high society!!! Even if he is a bhandar pilot, if he is good, he should be allowed to try for F-16, if he wants to and his superiors feel that he will be able to.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jul 2011 10:55

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Why do the Pakis have the urge to counter a doctrine that is non existent for the IA. Bliss to guide me onlee......

It is afraid of another defeat, which this time could be quick.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jul 2011 11:58

Strange Everyone missed this

Pakistani Navy UAV crashes into oil refinery

Police claims it was imported and in test flight. PN says that it was on regular flight.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jul 2011 13:17

Shrinivasan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The F-16 pilots in PAF have always come from other squadrons after considerable number of flying hours under the belt. The normal route for good pilots is F-7-->Mirage-->F-16. The better ones can make directly to Mirage.
This appears to be yet another instance of maintaining TFTAness, elitism, tony clubism widely prevalent in Paki high society!!! Even if he is a bhandar pilot, if he is good, he should be allowed to try for F-16, if he wants to and his superiors feel that he will be able to.

I don't think that is the case....they only allow experienced pilots ontp F-16, that is all. If they feel an experienced JF-17 pilot has good potential, he will be transfered to F-16 squadron.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 20 Jul 2011 15:11

chackojoseph wrote:Strange Everyone missed this

Pakistani Navy UAV crashes into oil refinery

Police claims it was imported and in test flight. PN says that it was on regular flight.

That is not the wing of a 15 kg plane (as claimed in the police story).

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Jul 2011 16:44

Perhaps an unsucessful sucide attack.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 20:19

chackojoseph wrote:Strange Everyone missed this
Pakistani Navy UAV crashes into oil refineryPolice claims it was imported and in test flight. PN says that it was on regular flight.

CJ, I noticed a pattern of Pakee UAVs crashing...1 in Peshawar, 2 in Karachi. I am surprised that Pakees have not created a mass hysteria that this is a Yindoo/Yehudii UAV which has been shot down by the Brave Bakee army or that Bakees have shot down a Predator which was violating Pakee so-virginity!!!

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 20 Jul 2011 20:21

indranilroy wrote:That is not the wing of a 15 kg plane (as claimed in the police story).

Is Mr Brandy doing his handiwork? or Telebunnies getting wiser? hmmm it could get really interesting...

saip · Post by **saip** » 20 Jul 2011 20:37

Drones inducted into Paki Navy

http://thenews.com.pk/NewsDetail.aspx?I ... Navy-fleet

Is this drone part of the freebies (did not uncle give them 80 or so for free?)? Did one of these crash while being inducted?

I cant see the engine. Is it in the rear?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jul 2011 21:37

rohitvats wrote:The F-16 pilots in PAF have always come from other squadrons after considerable number of flying hours under the belt. The normal route for good pilots is F-7-->Mirage-->F-16. The better ones can make directly to Mirage. But no rookies from academy into F-16.

Another point - IMO, not all/majority of pilots in F-1 squadron are likely to be CCS. The reason being, CCS is more than top-end combat flying (as it TACDE), it is also an academy which trains Combat Leaders in employment of these aircrafts. So, these squadrons are likely to have a bit higher percentage of CCS qualified pilots but not majority; those who pass CCS and do not fit into Squadron hierarchy, will move into other squadrons.

You are correct in stating that not all F-16 pilots are CCS graduates. I was referring to their 18 "golden" Block 52 F-Solahs which will all have veteran pilots on them and a number of them could be CCS graduates. However I should have also stated that CCS graduates are far and few in between...not many of them to go around. My bad.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jul 2011 12:03

Pakistan navy inducts first squadron of indigenously made UAVs

Actually, now that I have a look at the pictures of Uqab-II

The wing (straight leading and trailing edge, position and size of aeliron, plus the fact that it is a single wing mounted to the top of the fuselage, and the mounting points for the empennage) makes me wonder if the crashed UAV was a Uqab!

Perhaps the police were half right ... it is a new UAV on trials ... it is not imported ... and may be they confused the payload with the plane's weight.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 21 Jul 2011 13:21

Are these new UAV not to be used in a conventential manner but just for arial Reconnaissance over the base to see if any bunnies are around, considering this sqadron is being raised in PNS Mehran?

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 13:49

Aditya_V wrote:Are these new UAV not to be used in a conventential manner but just for arial Reconnaissance over the base to see if any bunnies are around, considering this sqadron is being raised in PNS Mehran?

Why will they test a new UAV in one of the busiest / crowded cities of the country. They were using this new (Pakistan painted Chinese manufactured) UAV to spy on the MQM types. It probably got shot down.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jul 2011 14:05

As per police its imported mall.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 14:10

chackojoseph wrote:As per police its imported mall.

Never had a doubt on this count. thanks for the confirmation

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 21 Jul 2011 14:26

U.S. House panel moves to restrict aid to Pakistan
The Hindu

The powerful U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs on Wednesday passed the Defence Authorisation bill which prohibits further security aid to Pakistan until the Secretary of State provides certification affirming various aspects of Pakistani cooperation in the war on terror.

It also prohibits further civilian assistance until the effectiveness of such programmes is certified by the Secretary of State, in addition to a certification on Pakistan’s cooperation in the war on terror.

“The language in this bill puts that (Pakistan) government on notice that it is no longer business as usual and that they will be held to account if they continue to refuse to cooperate with our efforts to eliminate the nuclear black market, destroy the remaining elements of Osama Bin Laden’s network and vigorously pursue our counter-terrorism objectives,” Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen said.

“I think the prospect of a cut-off of assistance will get their attention and that the games being played with our security will finally stop,” said Ros-Lehtinen, who chairs the panel, which on Wednesday passed the bill blocking U.S. assistance to Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, Yemen and Palestinian Authority. Several other lawmakers supported the move. Ranking Democratic member Howard Berman agreed that the U.S. should get tough with Pakistan but argued that the Republican bill’s approach was short-sighted.

“The key to long-term stability in Pakistan, and the only way we’ll ever get Pakistan to change its behaviour, is by strengthening its civilian institutions, not weakening them as this bill will do,” Berman said.

“Our effort in Afghanistan ... supplying to our troops there depends highly on cooperation from Pakistan” and not by declaring it an enemy, he said, adding that there is a need “to ensure that we have a productive relationship with Pakistan.”

He also told his Congressional colleagues that India had never suggested that the US cut off all economic assistance to Pakistan. Congressman Dana Rohrabacher from California said, “I do not know, how much more Pakistan has to do to prove that they are not our friend.”

“Pakistan is China’s best friend. We just can’t live in an illusion that Pakistan is so important ... most people understand that the ISI is ... lying to us. We can make a more peaceful world by making sure that India is our friend,” he said.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 21 Jul 2011 17:17

Another report on the UAV with a pic. from a diff. angle.
http://nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-news ... s-squadron

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jul 2011 17:25

Rakesh wrote:
rohitvats wrote:The F-16 pilots in PAF have always come from other squadrons after considerable number of flying hours under the belt. The normal route for good pilots is F-7-->Mirage-->F-16. The better ones can make directly to Mirage. But no rookies from academy into F-16.

Another point - IMO, not all/majority of pilots in F-1 squadron are likely to be CCS. The reason being, CCS is more than top-end combat flying (as it TACDE), it is also an academy which trains Combat Leaders in employment of these aircrafts. So, these squadrons are likely to have a bit higher percentage of CCS qualified pilots but not majority; those who pass CCS and do not fit into Squadron hierarchy, will move into other squadrons.
You are correct in stating that not all F-16 pilots are CCS graduates. I was referring to their 18 "golden" Block 52 F-Solahs which will all have veteran pilots on them and a number of them could be CCS graduates. However I should have also stated that CCS graduates are far and few in between...not many of them to go around. My bad.

Many of these jokers would have also flown with other (middle east) Air forces, thus giving them considerable experience in varied operating conditions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Jul 2011 17:30

indranilroy wrote:Pakistan navy inducts first squadron of indigenously made UAVs

Actually, now that I have a look at the pictures of Uqab-II
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-d9vDxocfVZM/T ... Uavs_1.jpg

The wing (straight leading and trailing edge, position and size of aeliron, plus the fact that it is a single wing mounted to the top of the fuselage, and the mounting points for the empennage) makes me wonder if the crashed UAV was a Uqab!
http://nation.com.pk/uploads/news_image ... _28984.jpg

Perhaps the police were half right ... it is a new UAV on trials ... it is not imported ... and may be they confused the payload with the plane's weight.

Only bullshit is indigenous to Pakistan.

Galileo Falco

Also features in this unrelated video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvioAKTyK_4

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 21 Jul 2011 19:05

shiv wrote:Only bullshit is indigenous to Pakistan.

You are not being fair to our good neighbour... the Yellow Stand on which the UAV is standing is also pindigenous . Pray educate me on the need for this stand, there is after all a wheel and the UAV is supposed to run on these wheels when on the ground. unless what has been inducted is a scale model.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Jul 2011 21:38

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:Pakistan navy inducts first squadron of indigenously made UAVs

Actually, now that I have a look at the pictures of Uqab-II
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-d9vDxocfVZM/T ... Uavs_1.jpg

The wing (straight leading and trailing edge, position and size of aeliron, plus the fact that it is a single wing mounted to the top of the fuselage, and the mounting points for the empennage) makes me wonder if the crashed UAV was a Uqab!
http://nation.com.pk/uploads/news_image ... _28984.jpg

Perhaps the police were half right ... it is a new UAV on trials ... it is not imported ... and may be they confused the payload with the plane's weight.
Only bullshit is indigenous to Pakistan.
Galileo Falco

Also features in this unrelated video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvioAKTyK_4

Obviously I am not defending the Pakis here

. But this is the best design for a docile and highly stable ... That is why we see a lot of UAVs of this shape. I mean look at the airframe ... what is there to build in it ?!!! Choose the payload of the instruments that need to be carried, choose a suitable engine and prop ... counter balance the engine with the payload ... select a low-drag aerofoil. Calculate length of wing. Match the CG with CP and there you go.

What is inside is and what is on the ground are what matters. In that field I have no idea what is indigenous and what is not.

Shrinivasan wrote: You are not being fair to our good neighbour... the Yellow Stand on which the UAV is standing is also pindigenous . Pray educate me on the need for this stand, there is after all a wheel and the UAV is supposed to run on these wheels when on the ground. unless what has been inducted is a scale model.

They are not such a big fool ... having more resting points just reduces the stress at each resting point ... whether you need to do this is based on your design.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jul 2011 21:49

nishant uav and many many others use the same form.