Sri Lanka - News and Discussion

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 06:41

@arshyam.

One has no quarrel with the majority of the good folks of TN. The issue arises when dravidian supremacists begin to drive the agenda like they are doing now. The sinister role of norway and its like minded partners cannot be over emphasised or discounted. I am glad to see that such a role is openly being discussed because in the past when when such discussions took place, there was open scepticism and folks scoffed at the connections.

dravidian supremacists exist in every TN political party and sane folks are being sidelined by these anti national scoundrels. Entire communities have been tarred and are actively discriminated against by these so called keepers of the tamil faith. The enduring institutions of state like the IA are maliciously run down by these folks in their effort to discredit the majority. amma objected and continues to object to srilankan army personnel being trained in IA institutions in chennai, which only means that the same guys will go to the pakis for the very same training. What bloody business has she or any local politician, to interfere in the affairs of the Indian state and yet there she is, like thatha and his ilk, playing to the gallery of the dravidian supremacists who have an agenda of trying to discredit the IA and other national institutions. What about the the countless soldiers who were placed in harms way by the mad hatter policies of rajiv gandee who was illiterate and had he not been taken down by the ltte, would have surely have embroiled us in a nuclear exchange by now, given his egomaniac and lone ranger personality and his god complex. thatha safely sought to denigrate the IA because he and his ilk sorely lacked testicular fortitude to target rajiv gandee. In the mood rajiv gandee was in, he would have publicly raped the DMK and all its leaders so thatha chose to target the institution that WOULD/COULD not hit back. Do we deserve such leaders??

The "they" in the equation has been debated in depth and does not warrant further waste of time or else the discussions will become a free for all. The "they" is also what drives the day to day discourse regarding the fishermen, SL tamils and their rights, oppression by the sinhala majority and the requirement/demand for the forceful intervention by India to right "historical wrongs" etc.

When "they" enter the picture, thoughts of eelam and secession are not far behind, also "they" have changed the local demographics and seek to own the narrative and exclude even the legitimate interests of the Union of India. Punjab, J&K, North east, even lakshadweep islands are painted with the same brush.

I, myself oppose the imposition of hindi as it is sought to be done from time to time but cannot countenance the total exclusion of the same to the extent that it causes a self inflicted wound and hobbles the relations with the center. Hindi is here to stay along with all the national languages and the sooner the dravidian supremacists make their peace with it the better it will be for all. After all, every Tamil in delhi and the north speaks it, hindi movies are popular in TN and their tamil films are full of discarded north Indian heroines. Anti sanskrit?? there is your dravidian supremacist in action again. It was these same people that kept quiet when leela samson subverted the cultural institution of the Kalakshetra because it suited their agenda.

No TN party will ever form and lead the central govt. It would be a tragedy and a travesty, ( like YSR on steroids ).

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 06:47

SwamyG wrote:

This "new country" hostile to India and SL sounds more like a Hollywood movie than practical. Let us assume this "new country", presumably with lots of Tamilians majority of whom will be Hindus, but controlled by the Tamil Christian and Tamil Muslims, will give in to the "West" and provide say a Military Base to a European power or America. Then what?

Then people start actually using these ports obviously, not that any of this came to pass because the GoI supported GoSL in taking down the LTTE, so such eventualities were ruled out.

You were presumably around when the LTTE was fighting the SL government to the death -- Prabhakaran openly stated that his only goal was to create a new country for Tamils in SL, so no, this is not out of hollywood movies. And I am not stating anything as simplistic as what you have outlined. It is a fact that deep ports are huge military and economic assets and a fledgling country, if it ever came to pass would be glad to provide access for financial assistance -- nothing hollywood about this either, unless you care to spell out exactly which part is hollywood.

The Indian Ocean shipping lines are a few hundres miles down from SL and is the central route taken for a huge percent of trade in the region..I don't have a map handy but I will post it here when I have one.

Anyway, once there are two states, at least one of them is going to end up hostile to India's interests, if not both of them, as would be more likely. Then we have two states playing "swing" states between world powers.

One must have a very low opinion about India's prowess in diplomacy, military and strategy matters to come up with this sort of theory.

Obviously, as I stated Indian govt. already worked through these possibilities and provided support to the SL govt. to take down the LTTE -- Rajapakse's non cooperation after taking all this help is a different matter. And you think my stating the above explicitly indicates I have a low opinion of the Indian govt.? really now. Or are you reacting to something else that I wrote somewhere else to come up with this? Perhaps all the hollering at UN-loving babucracy got your goat, eh?

And all this happening when the Buddhist part of the original SL is silently watching, and tamil muslims, Christians and Hindus are singing Khumbhaya.

Perhaps you remember all the violence that was the norm in that country about a decade ago (starting from 1978)? That would have continued, and it would have leaked into south India too potentially. The possibilities down that road are not good for India any way you slice it. It would be stupid to pretend all of this will happen and all hostility will cease immediately leading to kumbaya-singing, which I did not claim would happen -- it won't, which is what makes it all the more horrendous. A decade back the maoists had started spreading central India and there was trouble both in NE India and on the western border. I am saying this in that context, not in today's context. It is all easy to pretend all of this is conspiracy theory than it is to explain what the heck was the interest of scandinavian countries in the well being of SL Tamils, when they did not give a cr@p about the rest of the people in the region...their sheer love for humanity, you think?

added later: I recall a couple of LTTE guys on this very thread actually pull up articles of Prabhkaran and the LTTEs intent for a violent split from Sri Lanka. This was about 1 year before the final war that the LTTE lost.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 07:09

If SL was not going to treat its tamil citizens equally, then a separate question was the only option out. It is not a question if a separate country could have been created, it is a question of if India would have allowed that country to be hostile. The "new country" would have been in the NE, and closer to India and sandwiched between the Buddhist SL and India. You think India would allow that country to just handover its waters and ports to Europe or America?

The treatment of SL tamilians has been one of the horrific crimes in the 21st century, the World just played along after shrugging its shoulders. In all the importance that LTTE attracted, the innocent tamilians suffered the most - at the hands of GoSL policies/army plus its own LTTE.

What is sad is that there never arose a great leader among SL tamilians to champion for the cause. Of course all those who arose where silenced by LTTE. But TN did not produce sterling leaders who could move mountains and water to help them. Both Dravidian parties plus Congress do not seemed to have handled the situation with the maturity it deserved.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 07:19

If SL was not going to treat its tamil citizens equally, then a separate question was the only option out. It is not a question if a separate country could have been created, it is a question of if India would have allowed that country to be hostile.

No, the question is whether India can manage to get both countries to cooperate when they both are guaranteed to have bad blood between them. If India go tight witht the Tamil part, then what stops the remaining part of SL from turning over completely to the chinese (perhaps even allow chinese nuke subs to be docked there permanently)?

The treatment of SL tamilians has been one of the horrific crimes in the 21st century, the World just played along after shrugging its shoulders. In all the importance that LTTE attracted, the innocent tamilians suffered the most - at the hands of GoSL policies/army plus its own LTTE.

That may all be true, but that is no reason to endanger India's long term control of the IOR region by creating new actors and new motivations for greater powers to get their claws in the region. It is a sad truth that innocent people die all over the planet, but that has nothing to do with Indian govt. doing what is required in pursuit of sound statecraft with long term interests in mind.

While the sufferings of people anywhere is nothing to be dismissed easily, I see nothing to be sad about "great tamil leaders" rising to...what end? Tamilnadu is a State of the Union, and the politics of one sub Indian group cannot be allowed to subvert larger interests of the country. Same holds true for the punjabis and their sikh brethren in pakistan that they weep over and demand peace with pakistan -- it may be good for punjabis, but it is not going to be good for the rest of India, given what we know about the pakis.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 07:22

Tuvaluan wrote:SwamyG wrote:
This "new country" hostile to India and SL sounds more like a Hollywood movie than practical. Let us assume this "new country", presumably with lots of Tamilians majority of whom will be Hindus, but controlled by the Tamil Christian and Tamil Muslims, will give in to the "West" and provide say a Military Base to a European power or America. Then what?
Then people start actually using these ports obviously, not that any of this came to pass because the GoI supported GoSL in taking down the LTTE, so such eventualities were ruled out.

You were presumably around when the LTTE was fighting the SL government to the death -- Prabhakaran openly stated that his only goal was to create a new country for Tamils in SL, so no, this is not out of hollywood movies. And I am stating anything as simplistic as what you have outlined. It is fact that deep ports are huge military and economic assets and a fledgling country, if it ever came to pass would be glad to provide access for financial assistance -- nothing hollywood about this either, unless you care to spell out exactly which part is hollywood.

The Indian Ocean shipping lines are a few hundres miles down from SL and is the central route taken for a huge percent of trade in the region..I don't have a map handy but I will post it here when I have one.

Anyway, once there are two states, at least one of them is going to end up hostile to India's interests, if not both of them, as would be more likely. Then we have two states playing "swing" states between world powers.

One must have a very low opinion about India's prowess in diplomacy, military and strategy matters to come up with this sort of theory.
Obviously, as I stated Indian govt. already worked through these possibilities and provided support to the SL govt. to take down the LTTE -- Rajapakse's non cooperation after taking all this help is a different matter. And you think my stating the above explicitly indicates I have a low opinion of the Indian govt.? really now. Or are you reacting to something else that I wrote somewhere else to come up with this? Perhaps all the hollering at babucracy got your goat, eh?

During the last days of the ltte, many interested western govts including the vatican desperately approached the SL govt and the GOI to moderate their attack on the ltte and "allow" the boss prabhakaran to "escape". Great treasure was offered as inducement for this. Many carrots and sticks were unveiled.

The IA and the IN have recordings of the radio transmissions to and from prabhakaran, his high council and his rabid gang of extra territorial EJ government supporters. The SL govt did the right thing in executing the well fed and pudgy leader and his individual family members to remove the poison tree from the very roots. All major western govts were pressed into action to try and retrieve the situation by compelling piddly govts like India and SL to fall in line. Four bullets to the backs of four heads put paid to all such efforts.

But you are wrong in thinking that the ltte has been finished. They are lying low and still collect money in europe and canada, though on a much reduced scale.
They are quietly organized and surely working in TN through over ground supporters. There is no other reason for vaiko and gang calling for the ban on the ltte in India to be overturned. Surely people are not foolish to call for removal of the ban on a non existing organization??

The shrill cry by the europeans, amrekis and the pope for "international investigations" is a concerted attempt to rehabilitate the old gang once again. They wish to savagely indict and sanction the srilankans and rehabilitate the ltte as an innocent collection of "freedom fighters", restore legitimacy and legalize open funding and press on with an agenda for east timor part two.

This agenda will not be viable without large parts of coastal TN and hence the dravidian supremacist goal of controlling the narrative and changing/controlling the demographic dividend to lay the foundation for the coming struggles.

prabhakaran was a "leader" who was developed with great forethought and built up as this one great tamil hope. That's why they wanted to save him at all costs. It took only four bullets to bring a temporary halt but the covert battle will continue quiety and out of sight like an iceberg floating with its tremendous mass almost completely hidden.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 07:25

There is no other reason for vaiko and gang calling for the ban on the ltte in India to be overturned. Surely people are not foolish to call for removal of the ban on a non existing organization??

I was not aware. That is certainly interesting. Sri Lankan Tamils have managed to do very well for themselves in Canada and elsewhere being a very enterprising peoples. Yes, I recall the shrill commentary and all the western governments demanding safe passage for Prabhakaran and his followers right until the very last minute.

The shrill cry by the europeans, amrekis and the pope for "international investigations" is a concerted attempt to rehabilitate the old gang once again. They wish to savagely indict and sanction the srilankans and rehabilitate the ltte as an innocent collection of "freedom fighters", restore legitimacy and legalize open funding and press on with an agenda for east timor part two.

That would not surprise me, though the end of the Prabhakaran line means an end to any figure that can rally SL tamils globally --- I do not see any one today, though that does not mean such a figure cannot be conjured by the media in the west if they really wanted to do so.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 07:38

Dramatic change in Sri Lanka: Can it foster better relations with India

Rajapaksa created concerns for India by refusing to devolve political and financial powers to the Tamil-dominated northern and eastern provinces as per the 13thAmendment to the Sri Lankan Constitution. After the decimation of one of the world’s deadliest guerrilla groups, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), and killing of thousands of innocent Tamils in the process, Rajapaksha was too slow in his rehabilitation plan. India extended financial support for the rehabilitation of Tamils, but the Rajapaksa regime was tardy.

The former president also refused to allow an independent inquiry into the horrific massacre in 2009. The violation of human rights in the 2009 massacre invited global concern and the issue was debated in the UN Human Rights Council, but India did not pressurize much hoping that good sense would prevail upon Rajapaksa sooner than later. It is now hoped that Sirisena may take steps to address the concerns of the international community. The UN Human Rights Council is likely to take up this issue in the next session in Geneva in March.

And for all this he chose to annoy India by using China as a card.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 07:45

Rajapakse was a loathesome tool whose hostility towards India was unwarranted especially after all the support he was provided in the last days of the LTTE, and his hostility continued even after PM Modi tried to extend a hand to SL recently. All we heard from the SL press was his unremitting hostility towards modi for having invited him to New Delhi for the opening ceremony. My suspicion is the UPA govt. made the serious mistake of using the UN HR card against Rajapakse which is when relations with his govt. started to go south -- hopefully this regime will not make the same mistake.

We'll see how much better Sirisena is, but it is certainly not a good idea for India to join the UN Human Rights bandwagon -- that crowd's interests are far from India's interests in SL.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 07:48

Tuvaluan wrote:
There is no other reason for vaiko and gang calling for the ban on the ltte in India to be overturned. Surely people are not foolish to call for removal of the ban on a non existing organization??
I was not aware. That is certainly interesting. Sri Lankan Tamils have managed to do very well for themselves in Canada and elsewhere being a very enterprising peoples. Yes, I recall the shrill commentary and all the western governments demanding safe passage for Prabhakaran and his followers right until the very last minute.

The shrill cry by the europeans, amrekis and the pope for "international investigations" is a concerted attempt to rehabilitate the old gang once again. They wish to savagely indict and sanction the srilankans and rehabilitate the ltte as an innocent collection of "freedom fighters", restore legitimacy and legalize open funding and press on with an agenda for east timor part two.
That would not surprise me, though the end of the Prabhakaran line means an end to any figure that can rally SL tamils globally --- I do not see any one today, though that does not mean such a figure cannot be conjured by the media in the west if they really wanted to do so.

Tuvaluan ji,

"such a figure" has to now be developed, nurtured and built up in the public space, thus tipping their hand and resurrecting and proving right many past "conspiracy theories". This is a very formidable task, given fast growing public awareness and the reach of the internet and the almost daily revelations of EJ chicanery and deep involvement of soverign EJ governments in pushing their conversion agendas.

Hence the very very desperate effort to keep the fearless leader and his family alive

In the end, we are on the same side, on the side of the great Union of India.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 07:52

Chetakji, not sure EJs and conversions have anything to do with all this, and if that is the case, that is a lot of trouble for not much benefit in real terms. In the end, SL Tamils are just as practical as everyone else, and few will see reason to support another LTTE-like group if the SL govt. keeps its word on treating SL tamils as first class citizens.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 08:24

Tuvaluan wrote:Chetakji, not sure EJs and conversions have anything to do with all this, and if that is the case, that is a lot of trouble for not much benefit in real terms. In the end, SL Tamils are just as practical as everyone else, and few will see reason to support another LTTE-like group if the SL govt. keeps its word on treating SL tamils as first class citizens.

We have taken our eyes off the EJ (both abrahamic religions) ball in the north east, lakshadeep and TN, Andhra and telengana. Though I fervently pray that you are right, I fear that at this stage I cannot agree with you as the evidence does not support it.

When the time comes, the shrill ej SL tamils will drive new ltte agenda, swamping the majority, just like they did in the past, using the very same tried and tested methods. It always works as has been demonstrated the world over, time and bloody time again. Only the few matter, the majority never does. There are numerous examples in repeated global history.

There is a world of difference between the ej SL tamils and the dravidian supremacist TN tamils. They are like chalk and cheese, aggression and acquiescence, the genetic make up of the leader and the led and mark my words the "leaders" will always come from the SL tamils.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 08:35

We have taken our eyes off the EJ (both abrahamic religions) ball in the north east, lakshadeep and TN, Andhra and telengana. Though I fervently pray that you are right, I fear that at this stage I cannot agree with you as the evidence does not support it.

Well, I am not sure what evidence you are looking at, but looking at everything through one prism usually leads to poor judgement. And the situation in these other places in India do not have the same recent history as Northern SL. It would pay to see how the situation develops instead of prejudicing oneself with theories ahead of time without the facts to back them. In any case, my statement is w.r.t. new supporters for an LTTE being not relevant if the Tamils in SL do not see a reason to split from SL.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 08:50

Tuvaluan wrote:
We have taken our eyes off the EJ (both abrahamic religions) ball in the north east, lakshadeep and TN, Andhra and telengana. Though I fervently pray that you are right, I fear that at this stage I cannot agree with you as the evidence does not support it.
Well, I am not sure what evidence you are looking at, but looking at everything through one prism usually leads to poor judgement. And the situation in these other places in India do not have the same recent history as Northern SL. It would pay to see how the situation develops instead of prejudicing oneself with theories ahead of time without the facts to back them. In any case, my statement is w.r.t. new supporters for an LTTE being not relevant if the Tamils in SL do not see a reason to split from SL.

Have it your way. I keep an open mind.

I for one am convinced that something is afoot and has been for quite sometime now. Time alone will tell but the almost daily emerging events do not generate much confidence in our politicians and babus to keep the best interests of the nation at heart.

Otherwise the emergence of NaMo on the world stage would not have caused so much of consternation. That he was recognised as an emerging threat long before he actually emerged speaks volumes and also the fact that none less than hillary clinton, among others gave him her/their personal undivided attention.

The latin phrase cui bono always helps in any analysis.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 09:08

Something's always afoot all the time surely. Important thing about keeping an open mind is that it should only be sufficiently open that the contents don't fall out...to paraphrase "Yes Minister". I think the Indian politicians and babus may have their faults but obviously many of them are doing their job to varying degrees of success, so it would be unfair to malign them without reason.

I am yet to see any evidence that the SL tamils are not willing to accept a settlement with the SL govt. even if offered and want to continue with the LTTE agenda -- that should be sufficient to consider that there is a new way forward for India and SL w.r.t. the SL Tamils. Anyway, time will tell.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 09:54

Tuvaluan wrote:Something's always afoot all the time surely. Important thing about keeping an open mind is that it should only be sufficiently open that the contents don't fall out...to paraphrase "Yes Minister". I think the Indian politicians and babus may have their faults but obviously many of them are doing their job to varying degrees of success, so it would be unfair to malign them without reason.

I am yet to see any evidence that the SL tamils are not willing to accept a settlement with the SL govt. even if offered and want to continue with the LTTE agenda -- that should be sufficient to consider that there is a new way forward for India and SL w.r.t. the SL Tamils. Anyway, time will tell.

SL is not a "secular" state, or even federal as understood by us. SL "minorities" do not have the "rights" that the Indian "minorities" have in India.

They are under NO obligation to follow the Indian "secular"/ federal model that the SL tamils are looking/insisting for. They will follow a model that suits the people of the sovereign, independent and democratic state that SL is.

The SL constitution is set up for the sinhala majority and it is their will that is going to prevail, leaving the SL tamils dissatisfied.

It is an internal SL matter.

If any one is in any doubt, rinse and repeat.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 10:06

The SL constitution is set up for the sinhala majority and it is their will that is going to prevail, leaving the SL tamils dissatisfied.

It is an internal SL matter.

Yes, I am aware the SL Tamils were not treated as first class citizens, which is the TELO revolution started in 1978 in the first place. As for this being an internal SL affair at this time, that is not quite so given the number of SL refugees in Indian territory that need to be rehabilitated and also to ensure that this does not repeat again. otherwise the SL President would not be consulting with India for rehabilitation of SL Tamils. No need to start being more true to the SL constitution than the average SL citizen.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 10:13

If your neighbor's family has perennial problems it is naive to expect it will not impact your family. If a neighboring country has injustice and human rights issue, it is naive to expect that India will not be impacted. Especially if the two countries share history, culture and people. India is clearly the larger, secure and mature country, it has no option but to act and cannot stick its head in sand claiming its an internal matter.

As the mother civilization it has the responsibility of taking care of all children, not just few because some in India have louder voices to support some their kin across borders. India as they say is a civilization and people are spread across countries.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Jan 2015 10:15

Am hopeful that the new dispensation would deal with the inequality of SL Tamils and the dramatis personae of the GoSL are way better than earlier one.
That being said, things wouldn't 't be in status quo for a long time if the present second class treatment continues. What GoI does or doesn't would have precedent either way. Even a passive measure like citizenship options would make sense if at all it reaches that level in the line of Pak and Afghan Hindus

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 10:25

That being said, things wouldn't 't be in status quo for a long time if the present second class treatment continues.

Agree, saravana. In that case, we should not be surprised if another LTTE like group rises up in the coming years and SL gets back to its violent days.

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 20 Jan 2015 10:27

Film actor politics is what TN is all about and no one takes them seriously. All parties are corrupted and loudly cry innocence when nabbed. All seem very serious about robbing the exchequer blind and think that it's all their father's property.

The last 3 or 4 general elections contradicts your statement that no one takes TN politics seriously. And there is no such thing as a localized issue. TN is a fairly large progressive state in the union, while as an armchair general you can discount the state or its views nonchalantly, I'm sure GoI has their own mind and ways of working.

The SL refugees are almost Indian citizens, they just dont have a passport. There is a fairly large camp outside my town, started in the 80's that has all but merged in to our landscape. Their kids went to school with us, their womenfolk work in our fields/factories, menfolk opened up small businesses and the educated ones have moved to cities looking for work. Add to them the lot of hill tamils who got Indian passports when they moved back to India. There is nothing that differentiates them from the refugees from Bangladesh or Pakistan. There are always unscrupulous elements in any society, but to paint an entire group numbering about 150K as mischief mongers just shows your prejudice. Also the freedom of movement is only restricted for certain camps, there are other smaller camps set in TN, where there is no such restriction.

The 2nd gen refugees will stay in India, this is where they were born and this is where their livelihood is. TN has the right to demand for their citizenship, whether they vote for BJP or not. If BJP waits for TN votes to take action on these issues, they are setting up a wrong example, going down the path that INC went, which obliterated them out of TN. Although, TN does not support the likes of vaiko, seeman or even Nedumaran, but if you think that Lankan politics is only watched by fringe elements in TN, then you are in for a rude shock.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Jan 2015 10:30

^^ Exactly Tuvaluan. Once the genie is out of the bottle it can't be put back without a blowback to anyone touching it with a barge pole. Happened time and again. I guess folks need to read up on the SL history atleast around 1980s to understand the discrimination and it's aftermath.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 20 Jan 2015 10:37

SwamyG wrote:The "new country" would have been in the NE, and closer to India and sandwiched between the Buddhist SL and India. You think India would allow that country to just handover its waters and ports to Europe or America?

How could India have stopped that from happening? Though not strictly comparable, India helped Bangladesh to secede and they have been hostile to India for much of their existence.

We would likely end up in another IPKF situation, where the Sinhala SL would egg on the Tamil NE to fight the imperialist and hegemonic Indians as Jayawardene did with LTTE, despite being sworn enemies.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 10:38

Indian right wingers are quick to show sympathy towards Hindus in BD and Pakistan. Then there is no BIG talk of 'internal matter' or 'national interest'. If India let Europe wish in troubled waters if SL, then it is India's fault. If it could break W and E Pakistan. It could have done the same in SL. If it can protect Nepal and Bhutan for so long, then it should have kept SL closer and wielded carrots and sticks better.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 10:41

^^^^^^^

@Tuvaluan & @SwamyG

While broadly agreeing with both of you, remember that SL politicians can run rings around Indian politicians any day of the week and twice on sundays. rajeev gandee stepped willingly into a land mine field prepared by the wily SL sinhala politicians.

They need to not piss off their biggest neighbor, in case a sunami or something like that hits again. The rest is being very handily provided for by the chinese who have wrapped up iron clad contracts and guarantees unlike what GMR did in the maldives.

just like we post haste flew water to the maldives and as if that very very expensive water has changed the anti India situation there even one teeny weeny bit.

The SL tamils (some, few, not all, whatever the number you want to put) have shown their secessionist hand to the majority sinhalese and are forever more damned in their eyes. No sinhala (govt) is ever going to trust them again. Tight controls will be maintained.

Another country is not going to sow the poisonous seeds of its own destruction at the mere say so of a neighboring country. If you push too hard, eventually, they will ask you to take the SL tamils as refugees and give them all Indian citizenship, which you can never do at any cost.

eelam is a on coming freight train, currently far away. It may be visible to the sinhala but not to the blinkered Indians yet. So many western govts have much invested in this train as evidenced by the tangible support in arms, ammo, comm gear, money and drug trade support to papa prabha and his merry gang and yet many Indians choose to disregard it.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 10:42

If India does not have that capacity then it better not dream big, no? How do West or China influence other countries, huh? If India which would be the closest country cannot keep such a tiny sliver of land in its sphere which would still have cultural and linguist closeness, then probably the country cannot look for a brighter future.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 10:49

SwamyG wrote:Indian right wingers are quick to show sympathy towards Hindus in BD and Pakistan. Then there is no BIG talk of 'internal matter' or 'national interest'. If India let Europe wish in troubled waters if SL, then it is India's fault. If it could break W and E Pakistan. It could have done the same in SL. If it can protect Nepal and Bhutan for so long, then it should have kept SL closer and wielded carrots and sticks better.

Nepal has gone chinese, the new constitution is "secular" in what was once the only Hindu Kingdom in the world. Bhutan is very soon going to follow suit, both in the choice of a new dancing partner as well as a spanking new "secular" constitution.

Is this how we "protect" them??

The piddly, piddly scandinavian countries, as we speak, still run riot in India in EJ circles and bugger all we can do about it.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 20 Jan 2015 10:51

If Elam is coming then Sinhalese better act. It cannot wash its crime in milk and honey and expect people to forget it. If it does not want separation better treat its citizens equally and with justice. It is a two way street, and there is no reason why SL tamilians have to trust the Sinhalese without any show of tolerance and respect.

Let us hope the new government will make strides in restoring balance to the land. If India does not want missionaries and Europe to sell their wares, then it better knock sense into Sinhalese and not cede the control or mindshare to non-Indics.

No point in lamenting after the poisonous seeds have been sown. If mistakes have been made in the past, India should learn and keep improving its thoughts and actions.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 10:56

The SL tamils (some, few, not all, whatever the number you want to put) have shown their secessionist hand to the majority sinhalese and are forever more damned in their eyes. No sinhala (govt) is ever going to trust them again. Tight controls will be maintained.

The SL govt. is not just a sinhala govt. -- it is supposed to represent the SL tamils too -- not a minor detail this. If the SL govt. cannot or won't represent the SL tamils, then they have themselves to blame for any future fallout in their country -- if the SL govt. will not learn from past mistakes, they are doomed to the same results as the past. India has its diplomatic work cut out for it, and it needs to do what's necessary so SL does not cause another huge headache for India down the line because they do not have the brains or forethought to provide equal rights to all their citizens under the SL constitution.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 20 Jan 2015 10:57

SwamyG wrote:Indian right wingers are quick to show sympathy towards Hindus in BD and Pakistan. Then there is no BIG talk of 'internal matter' or 'national interest'. If India let Europe wish in troubled waters if SL, then it is India's fault. If it could break W and E Pakistan. It could have done the same in SL. If it can protect Nepal and Bhutan for so long, then it should have kept SL closer and wielded carrots and sticks better.

W and E Pakistan were separated by over 1000 miles of India. Here it's India that is separated from SL by a narrow strip of water, while the Sinhala and Tamil areas in SL are contiguous. Furthermore, the world has changed since 1971, there's no Soviet Union holding back the West and the Chinese from attacking us. Heck, just after 1971 there was Baloch insurgency and India was unable/unwilling/warned off from repeating the Bangladesh experiment there. Bangladesh liberation was a one off, which could be pulled off due to an fortuitously amazing array of favourable circumstances coming together at once.

India tried wielding carrot and stick- the 13th amendment was Indian initiative so was IPKF, what happened was the Tamil groups furious and alarmed at the prospect of disarming and Sinhalese, full of resentment and loathing towards India for forcing this on them, formed an unholy alliance against India. We had to pull out with over 1200 coffins and our dignity bruised and damage and to pile insult over injury, the returning troops were black flagged at Chennai.

Nepal and Bhutan DO NOT have any internal insurgencies or civil conflicts between different linguistic and ethnic groups (Bhutan has trivial issues with Nepali immigrants and Nepal has a few issues between what they call pure Nepalis and "madhesis") but none of them have ever reached the tempo and the fury of the Eelam war. Furthermore, both the countries realise that while India may not be perfect, becoming a Chinese tributary, vassal or worse a province is a far far less palatable option. There's no such elephant in the room when it comes to SL, being an island nation.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 10:57

SwamyG wrote:If India does not have that capacity then it better not dream big, no? How do West or China influence other countries, huh? If India which would be the closest country cannot keep such a tiny sliver of land in its sphere which would still have cultural and linguist closeness, then probably the country cannot look for a brighter future.

That is why NaMo needs more support in TN. The current narrative is being run from outside TN, in fact, from outside the country.

the termite queen has allowed anti national forces to consolidate and run the play and that needs time to be reversed and turned toward a new objective.

That is why we must support SL against all demands for "international investigations". They will tar us badly in the same investigation, not forgetting or forgiving the role we played in the demise of their fearless leader.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 11:01

Tuvaluan wrote:
The SL tamils (some, few, not all, whatever the number you want to put) have shown their secessionist hand to the majority sinhalese and are forever more damned in their eyes. No sinhala (govt) is ever going to trust them again. Tight controls will be maintained.
The SL govt. is not just a sinhala govt. -- it is supposed to represent the SL tamils too -- not a minor detail this. If the SL govt. cannot or won't represent the SL tamils, then they have themselves to blame for any future fallout in their country -- if the SL govt. will not learn from past mistakes, they are doomed to the same results as the past. India has its diplomatic work cut out for it, and it needs to do what's necessary so SL does not cause another huge headache for India down the line because they do not have the brains or forethought to provide equal rights to all their citizens under the SL constitution.

Sirji,

get real. equal rights is a utopia, it does not exist even in the US of A.

BTW, the SL army is now battle hardened. The next time around they will not take such a long time or make as big a mess. The eelam SL tamils well know this.

Tuvaluan · Post by **Tuvaluan** » 20 Jan 2015 11:13

get real. equal rights is a utopia, it does not exist even in the US of A.

Equal rights in the constitution is the normal for most democratic republics today...so it is all quite real, actually. You have clearly not read the US constitution in any detail -- read the bill of rights and the amendments...and you do not even have do dig that deep to see equal right specified on paper. The problem in SL is that it is not even specified on paper yet. I am not talking about implementing equal rights to everyone -- clearly that is an ideal that govts. strive towards AFTER it has been written into the constitution.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 11:24

Tuvaluan wrote:
get real. equal rights is a utopia, it does not exist even in the US of A.
Equal rights in the constitution is the normal for most democratic republics today...so it is all quite real, actually. You have clearly not read the US constitution in any detail -- read the bill of rights and the amendments...and you do not even have do dig that deep to see equal right specified on paper. The problem in SL is that it is not even specified on paper yet. I am not talking about implementing equal rights to everyone -- clearly that is an ideal that govts. strive towards AFTER it has been written into the constitution.

Get real meaning be practical.

The blacks, browns, yellow, green and what not will always be second class citizens compared to the whites. No matter WHAT is written in the constitution. Of course there will be occasional challenges to the constitution that the US supreme court will uphold and there after everyone goes back to their well ingrained discriminating ways, secure in the knowledge that the US is indeed a law abiding country, that guarantees equality for all.

The proof of the pudding is ONLY in the eating and not merely something emblazoned on the glossy packaging in which the pudding came.

Ask the many blacks who were shot by white police folks recently and see what they have to say about the US constitution.

I did tell you that the SL constitution will not pass the smell test of our own pristine, secular and minorities pasand constitution.

But then again, it is the constitution of a sovereign, free, democratic and fair elections holding country, who govern themselves far better than India does.

Their only problem it seems in their extreme reluctance to submit to the will of foreign countries like India or US, UK and other european countries. Have we ever considered that the sinhalese may simply be doing what is best for themselves as a free country??

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Jan 2015 11:44

Right. And China is a foreign country as well.
If Sinhalese would have felt discrimination is the best option for themselves they would have stuck with Rajapakse. Allegations of corruption notwithstanding. And the new government wouldn't be talking to India about repatriation.
We should encourage them into moving to a regime that is fair to all people since the blowback of discrimination affected us too. It is the least India can do apart from closer ties to a hopefully benign neighbour including people to people contact and other soft power.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 11:59

saravana wrote:Right. And China is a foreign country as well.
If Sinhalese would have felt discrimination is the best option for themselves they would have stuck with Rajapakse. Allegations of corruption notwithstanding. And the new government wouldn't be talking to India about repatriation.
We should encourage them into moving to a regime that is fair to all people since the blowback of discrimination affected us too. It is the least India can do apart from closer ties to a hopefully benign neighbour including people to people contact and other soft power.

Why does the government control only Hindu temples and not the religious places of others?? Is this not active discrimination?? against only the Hindus??

and how does the fate of such religious places pass into the control of dirty communists, atheists and charlatans of other religions who then use their positions on these boards to undermine the very Hindu religion which they are supposed to uphold?? various kerala devasom boards and tirupati temple during the YSR regime, to quote a few examples.

Are we fair to the Hindus in India?? or is the debate often contaminated by "secular" and "communal" overtones. Were we fair to the Hindus in India, ever?? in matters of education, control of their own institutions, using their temple funds to prop up other religious institutions which start their daily prayers by asking their god to help them defeat the kafir whose money is spent propping up and paying for such preachers??

The govt actively discriminates against the Hindus in all matters, the termite queen tried to bring in a "anti communal Bill" the less said about it the better and even today a large number of Indian political parties are actively campaigning to pass the wondrous bill.

Charity begins at home. To be carried away by the narratives of others and failing to look at your own narrative is a very peculiar Hindu trait and one without parallel anywhere in the world.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Jan 2015 12:07

Actually it is a nice parallel. Since the kind of lopsided sekularitis that decimated Congress party. It applies to other countries as well. If a group perceives any discrimination, a new equilibrium point is *always* found.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 12:17

saravana wrote:Actually it is a nice parallel. Since the kind of lopsided sekularitis that decimated Congress party. It applies to other countries as well. If a group perceives any discrimination, a new equilibrium point is *always* found.

Dude, don't patronize.

NaMo has awakened a large number of Hindus. It has nothing to do with the "lopsided sekularitis that decimated Congress party".

There wasn't a viable alternative for the longest time and suddenly a very viable one appeared on the scene. That is why the folks involved in colonizing, converting or subjugating India are extremely alarmed. The Indian narrative can at last be driven from India once again. The maculayputras are befuddled and may be bearded in their own dens by the newly emerged free citizen of India.

Comer · Post by **Comer** » 20 Jan 2015 12:27

You were rambling and did the nice thing by using your argument for driving home a point.
Now I will be frank. Not sure what is your purpose in this thread other than displaying bigotry towards a state and it's people and using that as an excuse for foreign policy stupidity. You are trying to be more Sinhalese than Indian. Your prescription involved electing a party as a favour and paying Hindi jiziya. Be thankful that I was patronising your ill formed arguments. Politeness has it's limits apparently.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Jan 2015 13:39

The Tamils in the north will get far better service from Ranil,CBK and the new Pres.the former two who have been consistent in their desire to bring about better devolution across the country and resolving ethnic differences. Now that the LTTE has been exterminated in the north,with the SL armed forces far stronger to prevent any resurgence,especially as SL is an island and any LTTE resurgence has to first require vast funds to acquire arms,etc.,and effective control of exclusive territory as prevailed in the Eelam War.This is today almost impossible given the magnitude of the financial and logistical requirements.Moreover,the eastern Tamils revolted against their northern Tamil brethren,who consider themselves "top dogs" in the pecking order of Tamilians in the island and will not join in any future attempt at .These prejudices are very deep rooted and will not disappear overnight .

However the controversial "13th amendment" which is resented by the majority of the Sinhalese as giving away too much to the JTs top put it mildly has been an unlucky "number" and should be replaced by something else.BY lessening the SLA's presence in the north and inducting more locals into the local police would go a long way in restoring trust in the north.Eco development must take place alongside and here is where India must play a more active role.Let's also not forget about the 5.6% of the "Indian Tamil" population in the hill country,who run the tea estates.They are also in great need of getting better infrastructure,opportunities,etc. and cannot expect to be tea pluckers forever! The island depends principally upon its exports of tea,an industry in crisis right now due to falling oil prices hitting exports to Russia,etc. The GOSL has a huge amt. of work on its hands to first eradicate the vermin who have corrupted the govt.,let the new broom sweep clean and restore transparency in govt. decisions especially those with major financial implications.The cancelling of those shady deals pet projects of the Rajapakse familia immediately should save substantial amounts of money that could be put to better use elsewhere.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 20 Jan 2015 13:56

saravana wrote:You were rambling and did the nice thing by using your argument for driving home a point.
Now I will be frank. Not sure what is your purpose in this thread other than displaying bigotry towards a state and it's people and using that as an excuse for foreign policy stupidity. You are trying to be more Sinhalese than Indian. Your prescription involved electing a party as a favour and paying Hindi jiziya. Be thankful that I was patronising your ill formed arguments. Politeness has it's limits apparently.

I am as Indian as anyone and simply advocating that as Indians we mind our own business and not interfere in the internal affairs of other countries. Do unto others as you would want them to do unto you.

if one wants something, one must be willing to pay a price. vaiko spits in the BJPs face buts wants NaMo to pressure the Govt of SL. What happens tomorrow if for instance, a newly rejuvenated ltte does in TN and India what the pakis are doing in cashmere and India.?? The GOI has once again banned the ltte, did they do it to a non existing or non functional organization or do you know better than the GOI??

As for bigotry, I am benignly disinterested in the fate of all non Indian Tamils. As an Indian, only the well being and prosperity of Indian citizen Tamils is of concern to me. Once you cross the borders of India and actively seek and secure the passport of another country, and to obtain said passport you have sworn loyalty to the other country and forsaken India for better economic opportunities or whatever, you are the sole responsibility of that country. Whether you went by yourself or some one shanghaied your great great grandfather is immaterial.

You have made your bed and now for better or for worse, you will have to lie upon it. If for any reason, you don't like it there, come back to India. You will be welcomed. One or the other. Choose. You can't have your cake and grab someone else's too.

I am among the extremely unfortunate who have seen the handiwork of the ltte at close range and and do not have any romanticized ideas/notions of the kind of filthy brutal vermin they are. Their willful use of innocent children as combatants turned one's stomach. Many casualties among the IPKF was because the soldiers did not fire on the children. When ever the IA was kind enough to accommodate me, I used to spend hours listening to the ltte radio transmissions as they were being recorded, sometimes hearing on going ltte ambushes as they were going down

When they were in power a great majority of the SL tamils supported them wholeheartedly and when they were decimated, the very same vast majority again wholeheartedly turned against them. This is the clear picture that I have in my mind. I cannot separate the two, ltte and the SL tamils.

The sinhalese have managed to control what was for them a country threatening situation which would have wiped out their very civilization. I have admiration for them as a people who suffered and overcame just as I have sympathy for the SL tamil families who suffered great losses. I have no advice to offer both these battered and suffering people. I have no dog in their fight. India does not have a dog in their fight. gandee was an idiot and we are now paying for the sins of the termite queen.

If the SL tamils had won would they have been "understanding" of sinhalese rights?? The sinhalese have won a war, not a chota fist fight in a local bar where the opponents dust themselves off, shake hands and have a beer together.

I have been accosted by the ltte scum in europe "offering" to get me asylum, seen them coerce decent folks and "collect" money in canada and in the UK. Seen them strut around openly with weapons in chennai.

jizya is what vaiko wanted from NaMo for his pathetic support of the UPA.

There is no hindi jizya. It is in the constitution.

BTW, when in local restaurants, I hear brash "narthies" talking to non hindi speaking locals in hindi, I chide them and tell them to learn the local language because if one cannot order a coffee in tamil in any restaurant in Delhi and expect to be served, why would the narthies spouting hindi be expecting to be served in the south??. One hears of people like azahagiri who did not attend even one single cabinet meeting because he spoke neither hindi nor english.

I thank you for you tolerance and for your "Be thankful that I was patronising your ill formed arguments". One sees so little of it these days that one takes what one can get.

But one thing that I do agree with you. Politeness has it's limits.