Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 07:55

T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

Wah Wah despite the above we still dont order more Arjuns

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2011 08:03

be careful here now.. you may trigger more forceful minds to wait for FMBT.. and will keep providing upgrade request to the 128 Arjuns.. after all it is very easy to add requirements and creeping into the product, as empirical data suggests there is no clear vision.

what is preventing them to order another 2000 T90s only a super power can know.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2011 09:22

good on Ajai Shukla, the full sordid saga needs to be told to the indian public and MPs and ensured that we buy no more from Russian armour, AA or SAMs after the t90.

t90 production needs to be capped wherever it is and HVF line converted to produce more Arjun. the germans may charge high but atleast they deliver quality products and generally do not resort to this kind of blackmail.

UK is going to retire hundreds of Challenger2 tanks soon...if at all we need imports , we should refurbish and import these - atleast these are far better tanks than the T90 ever will be , 100s of leopard2's are also being mothballed in europe .... sturdy and well kept beasts.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2011 10:06

FMBT

yeah right

now who wants to bet that this will open Sanku and Philips eyes!!!!

not moi

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2011 10:08

It is an account of Russian duplicity in the face of Indian submissiveness. Moscow’s readiness to disregard signed contracts was recently highlighted through its additional demands for money for the Gorshkov aircraft carrier. But the T-90S arm-twisting came before that; and constitutes a blow to the heart of Indian defence.

First it took one and a half years to transfer to India the ToT documents required for building the T-90S in India. The tonnes of documents that finally arrived were found to be in Russian; translating them into English took another one and a half years.

When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

An Indian Army officer who voiced his frustration to his Russian counterparts recalls the taunting Russian response: “Starting T-72 production took you 10 years. How do you imagine that you will produce the T-90 in just 6-7 years?” [But a super duper Arjun has to ccome in two years flat!]

The recent success of the indigenous Arjun tank; and any progress in developing the planned Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT), would ensure that the T-90S is the last tank that India buys from Russia.

just highlighting to bring visibility..

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Nov 2011 10:11

This Tin can-90 purchase smells even worse day by day. If after being bamboozled and kicked in the teeth the IA buys more of these lemons we deserve what we get in battle. So the IA after purchasing a tank which cannot fire Indian ammunition goes to the DRDO for help? They should be told to F#ck off as the DRDO is to busy working on the FMBT and cannot waste time on a "current technology tank" like the T-90. Not only is this piece of $hit inferior to the Arjun in every respect, we didn't even get the ToT we paid for. If we invested money in R and D on an indigenous engine and FCS we would have easily has those over the 7 year time frame wasted begging the arrogant Russians for tech. we paid for but didn't get. I need to throw up.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2011 10:14

This also brings in the MRTR (la mutu) into big power play here. where is CAG?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2011 10:17

T 90 is not even current technology.

Where is the DGMF who disparaged Arjun??

shhhhh Philip saar is figuring out why this was our mistake and making charts and comparisons to Scorpene.

Alsothe russians helped us with .....

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 10:22

FRom the above link

With India’s production line stymied, the MoD bought 347 more ready-built T-90S tanks in 2007, handing Russia another Rs 4,900 crore.

M-Math says each tank was bought at 14Crs, wonder why they couldnt order more Arjuns for 4 Crs more. This 4cr is also because of piecemeal orders and had they ordered 500 units the unit product cost would have come down further.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 28 Nov 2011 10:45

Surya boss, I was making a tongue in cheek comment after one of the IA officers who disparaged the Arjun as a current technology tank, as if a future technology tank could be had currently. If the Arjun is current tech. the T-90 is 20 year old tech. Not only was the cost of the T-90 massaged by leaving out needed equipment but now even stuff paid for has not been provided. The solution--- buy more tanks from Russia off the shelf!!! I seriously think court martials for IA officers and jail time for MoD officials are needed.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Nov 2011 10:52

..WTF! Tincan -90 tanks are made with Indian Manufacturing process Jugaad Guns and Indian Armor in the turrent!

.

This Russian business stereotype of dealing with Mafiosi and cut throats is getting too farcical and a case of reality overtaking art!

I wonder what will happen to Pak-Fa and other stuff if this Russian play book is going to be played out in future as well. It has happened multiple times , Adm Gorky, T-90S, and a host of other things that are kept out of the public eyes I am sure.

Fool me once, I was ignorant, Fool me twice, I am an idiot. Keep fooling me forever and I wonder what I am!

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 28 Nov 2011 10:53

Excellent article throwing much needed light on the farce that is the T-90. There are some questions the Army/MoD combine must answer:

1. How is it that these functional defects were detected only in the crises? Why no "hot-weather trials" and "AUCRTs"?

2. How is it that the QA/Acceptability procedures were so absolutely a sham that the Invars didn't function, the electronics gave up in the desert, the engines broke down repeatedly, the ammunition did not fire correctly and the tank gun tech was not passed on? I mean could there be anything more wrong with a "Tank"??

3. Why the hell is the Army/MoD giving them repeated orders for more off-the-shelf tanks, more tank ammo without resolving their previous actions and bullying tactics? We didn't have to take sh1t from the Russians on this - if they didn't give us the technologies that we paid for, the Arjun orders could be increased suitably.

vina · Post by **vina** » 28 Nov 2011 10:55

And to think that the very erudite Sanku Maharaji ji (Super Comprehension Man ka baap ka baap ?) wanted India to standardize on Russian 125mm main guns across the fleet in the interests of "commonality" and "soup-e-rear" oirity or whatever ! Me thinks, if at all , they should have done the "Karna" update with the Arjun gun on the T-90 chassis and shown the birdie to the Russians!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 11:05

Not withstanding the excellent report Ajai has put up on Arjun , I would be extremely cautious when he reports on T-90 , some how reading his write up i get the feeling its driven by his extreme personal hatred for T-90 ,much like his JSF write up is driven by extreme personal liking for that aircraft no matter how much one tries to convince him he tends to stick with what he thinks.

Any ways its his blog so he can write what ever he wants but its good to hear from MOD if there are issues that still remains unsettled , AFAIK the barrel technology has been transferred and composite armour technology was not provided so DRDO has developed its own Armour Technology for T-90 saw it on DRDO news letter , so they will use that for T-90 manufacturing.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2011 11:14

russia is helping us in certain strategic areas like space, missiles and n-subs. but this cannot be a license for breakage of contract on such a big scale and price gouging. some contracts seem to have gone reasonably well like su30, talwars...some are extended soap operas - AG, Akulas....and some are very messy like T90 and do not pass any norm of doing business with paying customers.
....
as it stands, wherever we have managed to develop good domestic items or found alternatives we have kept the Rus out even if they had something to offer which usually they did not. one by one they are losing it like SAMs , radars, transport planes, helicopters, ATGMs, IFV , ....

their's is a declining star in the indian defence market for sure. the PAKFA is about the only trump card deal they have.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 11:18

Austin Saar please note that on this very forum Col.Shukla had dissed Arjun circa 2007 IIRC, a number of forum members were in open fight with him on his assessment of the Arjun. He has turned the corner possibly after seeing better performance of the Arjun. Also it is not that this is an isolated case of irresponsible behaviour from the Russian side, there has been precedence in projects like the ones that Vina saar mentioned. Blind love for Russian products shouldnt cover up the fact that it was sub-standard spares that led to many MIG crashes

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Nov 2011 11:18

he was a t72 batallion commander, no reason to hate the t90 personally. infact he was praising the t72 in that phase.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Nov 2011 11:22

^^^ T-90 deal is more and more looking monumental F$$K-up.. obviously the deal was rushed thru with Stoli and Natashas in tow.!!! sickening... IA and MOD should order more Arjuns...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Nov 2011 11:23

With all the arguments, if you look at the output, its just 150 tanks. Arjun order was nearly 10 years later and has completed 124 tanks.

Shrinivasan · Post by **Shrinivasan** » 28 Nov 2011 11:25

Singha wrote:he was a t72 batallion commander, no reason to hate the t90 personally. infact he was praising the t72 in that phase.

I don't think he hates the T-90 MBT perse, but he is trying to highlight the achievements of CVRDE/HVF WRT Arjun MBT, IA and MOD's Apathy and the effect of measly piecemeal orders. His description of Arjun upgrades is great.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2011 11:27

AFAIK the barrel technology has been transferred and composite armour technology was not provided so DRDO has developed its own Armour Technology for T-90 saw it on DRDO news letter , so they will use that for T-90 manufacturing.

Austin all that still leaves the issue of Russian perfidy.

mind you Jcage had already mentioned some of these issues last yr (calibration issue with rounds etc)

Shukla is now confirming stuff Jcage mentioned few months ago

More worrying is that we relying on these guys for pak fa etc

The IAF better have a Plan B

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 11:32

suryag wrote:Austin Saar please note that on this very forum Col.Shukla had dissed Arjun circa 2007 IIRC, a number of forum members were in open fight with him on his assessment of the Arjun. He has turned the corner possibly after seeing better performance of the Arjun. Also it is not that this is an isolated case of irresponsible behaviour from the Russian side, there has been precedence in projects like the ones that Vina saar mentioned. Blind love for Russian products shouldnt cover up the fact that it was sub-standard spares that led to many MIG crashes

Granted taking all your argument in to consideration and no doubt he must have been privy to such trails which has changed his opinion on Arjun , but you have to see his write up the word he chooses to use and he quotes unnamed sources etc , you can see a deep personal hatred he has for T-90.

Not withstanding he has was associated with T-72 during his service years etc , you can make out from his write up that for what ever reason best known to him he hates the T-90 from the bottom of his heart much like he loves the JSF from the bottom of his heart and goes to extreme length to support it , he is a man of his own conviction and his own *strong* belief one cant do any thing much about it and in response to many of his blog followers he him self admits it.

As far as T-90 goes i would rather believe if MOD says the same thing and i did check up MOD press release nothing interesting in there.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 11:34

Austin ji, if what he said was true, I would "hate" the T-90S as well.

Thanks.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 11:35

Surya wrote:Austin all that still leaves the issue of Russian perfidy.

mind you Jcage had already mentioned some of these issues last yr (calibration issue with rounds etc)

Shukla is now confirming stuff Jcage mentioned few months ago

I did had word with JC on this and have exchanged many emails on this issue , yes the calibration issue is there since the round OFB is making is of the Israel origin and AFAIK the issue does not remain now , the same calibration issue will even exist for T-72 if they use the IAI 125 mm round , the ballistic computer needs to be appropriately calibrated for the round else they would face the issue that Ajai has described.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Nov 2011 11:36

One of the most logical explanation was given to me by people concerned.

T-90 is shown superior to Abrams by Russians. Arjun Tank doesn't match Abrams in any way. So T-90 is superior to Arjun.

If you all cannot understand this simple logic you are all assssss

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 11:40

PratikDas wrote:Austin ji, if what he said was true, I would "hate" the T-90S as well.

Thanks.

I wont hate the tank becuase i have studied enough on the tank to know its a good tank but if what Ajai says its true I wont deal with the unprofessional Russians or make sure any future deal has penalty clause so every delay has its own financial pinch , that the best way to deal if you have to deal with them.

The reality is MOD still goes to the Russians and MOD does not say any thing that what Ajai says is true, it does not speak good about the MOD , obviously this is a much complex issue and we do have a window preview of it to like it or hate it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Nov 2011 11:42

Austin, his writeup on T-90 is very factual, and backed up by what a lot of us have heard at public events and the like from both industry and army officials or even publicly released data from various other sources. Its funny to hear you state the gun issue is resolved. First, is it, or are there just statements saying "it will be, the Russians have agreed"- and then they don't hold to their end of the bargain. And second, why did the issue arise in the first place, when a significant amount was paid for TOT and it was not something gratis.

Accusing him of "extreme hatred towards the T-90" is quite frankly bias. He himself points out the MOD has not responded to his written queries. Fairly obvious that they will try to avoid any controversy given the trouble IA procurement is already in, and the entire issue of 2G and what not.

Yes, he has a liking for the JSF but some of the points he has made there are indeed valid. If India was not in such desparate need of the MMRCA, and had not tied it to the technology acquisition angle (as versus investing on its own) it would be a valid strategy to actually acquire the JSF in lieu of earlier types as a kick the door in type versus advanced SAM networks. Again, its sort of an irrelevant side track into the debate which is around armor.

There is very little doubt that Russia has taken us to the cleaners on the T-90 contract, just as they did with the MiG-21 Bison upgrade (never did meet TOT criteria or even the MTBF), and this despite us paying the TOT fees upfront.

Their absolutely sh*tty attitude towards cooperation - sending us untranslated documents, the delays in sending across assemblies, not fixing tank issues including the thermal imager overheating and leaving it to us to manage - that comment about 10 years and what not - its just symptomatic of how arrogant they can be when working with India and Indian customers.

Given that, since you brought up the MMRCA, it was a great thing the MiG-35 was rejected. The last thing India needed was yet another hanger queen, with India paying through its nose for half baked technology, and a sh*tty attitude towards the customer to boot. While Sukhoi has been reasonable, MiG has been anything but. BTW, they insist on every spare being sourced from Russia, when they can't even meet customer requirements in a timely fashion.

All said and done, Russia clearly has a huge problem on their hand, where some elements of their establishment think they can treat India as some third grade country whom they can offload anything and everything to, and the Indians should just be ok with it. You may want to give them the benefit of the doubt. The rest of us, having heard enough horror stories already from people who have to deal with these guys, are simply fed up.

The only option is to build up Indian capabilities, via own development and even JV with smaller, more willing partners eg South Africa, Sweden, Israel, and the occasional large project with European firms, if the US still raises so many forum members hackles.

But Russia should more and more be left to its own devices. India seems to have got into the habit of "paying off" Russia not to export stuff or technology to PRC, and that can be continued for select projects eg FGFA, but one way or the other, India has to stand up on its own.

For all the money we give to Russia, they still gave RD-33s to Pakistan for the JF-17. So much for our largesse.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 11:44

Austin wrote:
PratikDas wrote:Austin ji, if what he said was true, I would "hate" the T-90S as well.

Thanks.
I wont hate the tank becuase i have studied enough on the tank to know its a good tank but if what Ajai says its true I wont deal with the unprofessional Russians or make sure any future deal has penalty clause so every delay has its own financial pinch , that the best way to deal if you have to deal with them.

The reality is MOD still goes to the Russians and MOD does not say any thing that what Ajai says is true, it does not speak good about the MOD , obviously this is a much complex issue and we do have a window preview of it to like it or hate it.

So then how does it matter if he hates it or not? You're drawing a strawman. He has identified technical shortcomings and non-compliance. Just because the MOD doesn't choose to air its dirty laundry doesn't mean the laundry isn't dirty.

You might think that the tank is "good", but he was a tank commander and I'll take his opinion over yours any day unless you too were a tank commander.

Your opinion of the tank being "good" is as relevant as your opinion of Ajai Shukla's "hate". Diversionary.

For the record, I don't care about the Russian manufactured T-90 that comes with polish. I'm talking about the T-90 that India paid to manufacture locally. There is nothing "good" about it if India had to design the gun for it because the Russians wouldn't share the technology.

Also, if you say the technology for the gun was shared, what becomes critical is when? Was it shared after India didn't need it any more because we were already making the gun? Thanks!

And if Ajai Shukla is emotionally compromised then what about this:

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: “We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia.”

Is MSN Rao lying then? Sorry, I'll take his words over yours any day.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 11:53

PratikDas wrote:So then how does it matter if he hates it or not? You're drawing a strawman. He has identified technical shortcomings and non-compliance. Just because the MOD doesn't choose to air its dirty laundry doesn't mean the laundry isn't dirty.

You might think that the tank is "good", but he was a tank commander and I'll take his opinion over yours any day unless you too were a tank commander.

Your opinion of the tank being "good" is as relevant as your opinion of Ajai Shukla's "hate". Diversionary.

Which is fine , I was just putting up my opinion and both are free to believe what we think is right.

I would rather put more weigh on MOD words or if there are shortcoming in T-90 deal wait for CAG to show up .

If i have to believe Ajai then I would end up believing a lot what he says on many topics of interest.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 11:55

There is a difference between his opinion on the F-35 and his interview of the General Manager of HVF Avadi and his documenting of the facts.

Your attempt at colouring the two as same is sad.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Nov 2011 11:59

Austin saar - even today we dont see the famed Shtora on production models, neither the refleks missile, nor the thermal imaging equipment. Without this how different is the t-90 from the t-72 upgraded version it only has an uprated engine in the same shell

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 12:03

Karan M wrote:First, is it, or are there just statements saying "it will be, the Russians have agreed"- and then they don't hold to their end of the bargain. And second, why did the issue arise in the first place, when a significant amount was paid for TOT and it was not something gratis.

From what I know the TOT for gun has been given by the Russian and yes initially the Russian were reluctant on Gun TOT but that has been settled , they have not provided composite armour technology and DRDO has developed equivalent technology for armour and they would be using that hence forth for T-90 production , that is the latest information I have on T-90 TOT goes , its not about the payment or any thing like that it about both party agreement on what can be transferred and what cannot be. Russians were acting funny but MOD prevailed as far as Gun Barallel technology goes.

Accusing him of "extreme hatred towards the T-90" is quite frankly bias. He himself points out the MOD has not responded to his written queries.

What I can make out from Ajai many write up is he is a man of strong opinion and he sticks his neck out and he him self agrees to that that his opinion on T-90,JSF and many other would remain the same , nothing bad in that some people are driven by their own strong conviction.

Well MOD does not respond to many queries from jurnos nothing abnormal about it , its a pain to get written response from MOD , hence Jurnos prefer their own sources which have their own pitfalls.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 12:05

We have the General Manager of HVF Avadi saying they had to develop the main gun, which is really what matters because the MOD didn't make the tank.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: “We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia.”

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 12:08

suryag wrote:Austin saar - even today we dont see the famed Shtora on production models, neither the refleks missile, nor the thermal imaging equipment. Without this how different is the t-90 from the t-72 upgraded version it only has an uprated engine in the same shell

Hmm Shotra was never purchased and I think its good becuase its effective only against certain type of missile from frontal angle , it does not afford 360 * protection , I think MOD is evaluating the Israel APS system which is more comprehensive and would be selected for all types.

Reflex is already there , it was shown even on couple of IA videos if i am not wrong , there was even some problem that hindu reported during Relfex trials some were in chennai where 8 out of 10 rounds scored a hit instead of the claimed 9 out of 10 hit probability which was subsequently rectified.

The Commander has TI sight French Catherine and the Gunner has some passive sighting system.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 28 Nov 2011 12:09

I did had word with JC on this and have exchanged many emails on this issue , yes the calibration issue is there since the round OFB is making is of the Israel origin and AFAIK the issue does not remain now , the same calibration issue will even exist for T-72 if they use the IAI 125 mm round , the ballistic computer needs to be appropriately calibrated for the round else they would face the issue that Ajai has described

unless the Russians had helped with the calibration but flatly refused to

everything is an attempt to tie us as much as possible to the last piece of tank junk they will ever produce.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 12:13

PratikDas wrote:We have the General Manager of HVF Avadi saying they had to develop the main gun, which is really what matters because the MOD didn't make the tank.

Pratik I told you what i know , you really cant make a gun unless you have to technology to do it , if you try to reverse engineer it then its very challenging and has its own risk in terms of barrel bursting and reduced life etc , you should know the exact metal composition and exact temper and the whole process to make it , Like shiv said its just looking at the chapati and trying to figure out what type of wheat , how much water , heat etc was used in the end when you get the technology you can make it.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 28 Nov 2011 12:15

Very true. That technology was developed in India because the Russians were not forthcoming according to the interview of someone who builds the tanks.

No point shooting the messenger - Ajai Shukla.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Nov 2011 12:18

Surya wrote:unless the Russians had helped with the calibration but flatly refused to

Surya , from memory OFB lic produces those Israel APFSDS round of Mk1 and Mk2 type , there is no way those rounds will ever perform optimally unless the calibration issues get sorted out , i have read that those issue do not exist any more but if it still does them we are dealing with sub-optimum rounds not a good thing.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 28 Nov 2011 12:20

PratikDas wrote:We have the General Manager of HVF Avadi saying they had to develop the main gun, which is really what matters because the MOD didn't make the tank.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: “We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia.”

I had asked why can't they reverse engineer. They said that the metal composition is not known. Secondly, we have paid for the ToT and we should get the technology, irrespective we have developed inhouse or not.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 28 Nov 2011 12:24

suryag wrote:T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewalls

That sounds at partially like good news. Only 150 T-90s delivered by HVF so far, for a total of less than 700 tanks. Given that the IA has to phase out all T-55s as well as a large chunk of the T-72 fleet, there's still sufficient time for the IA to shift its projected future fleet mix decisively in the Arjun's favour.