Eastern Europe/Ukraine

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2014 15:50

Saw a press conference by the Governor of the separatist Donetsk province. Very Putin like performance. Some excerpts translated by my Russian friends:

Asked the Ukranians to send more armour to the region, as the recyled metal assists their metal industry.
Pointed out that Poroschenko had promised to parade his troops and armour through Donetsk on the 24th...so they were only facilitating that promise with the display of captured POWs and destroyed tanks.
Separatists are short of manpower with few reserves. The situation described as being like a game of chess with Ukrainian and rebel units mixed together.

Meanwhile on the fairly controlled Ukrainian TV a bit of a jaw dropping moment: The Govt had been claiming their troops had seized back a town taken by the rebels in their offensive. Then one of their troops rang the TV station, pleading for help and completely rubbishing the official line. Sounded desperate, cut off and largely abandoned. Also that the advance took them completely by surprise.

This unit which managed to escape the pocket found that the officer who got them out, is now facing court martial for ignoring chocolate soldier's, Hitler like `stand and fight' order. They make clear that their casualties are massively under reported. And that the offensive took them completely by surprise. Their forces appear to be demoralized and without a clue as to whats actually going on much less what to do about it.

And on a BBC program seen in Russia - A tank described as the latest Russian tank - hence proof of Russia's involvement, turned out to be an old T-72B.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 04 Sep 2014 16:33

Philip wrote:
PS:There is also no way that you can make a complaint to the BBC .It's a maze wandering through its website where you ultimately find no avenue to express your displeasure at its biased reporting!

Use twitter. E.g., @BBCWorld.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 04 Sep 2014 16:50

Then one of their troops rang the TV station, pleading for help and completely rubbishing the official line. Sounded desperate, cut off and largely abandoned. Also that the advance took them completely by surprise.

This unit which managed to escape the pocket found that the officer who got them out, is now facing court martial for ignoring chocolate soldier's, Hitler like `stand and fight' order. They make clear that their casualties are massively under reported. And that the offensive took them completely by surprise. Their forces appear to be demoralized and without a clue as to whats actually going on much less what to do about it.

Wonder if the caller was in St. Petersburg

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 04 Sep 2014 17:44

UlanBatori wrote:
Then one of their troops rang the TV station, pleading for help and completely rubbishing the official line. Sounded desperate, cut off and largely abandoned. Also that the advance took them completely by surprise.

This unit which managed to escape the pocket found that the officer who got them out, is now facing court martial for ignoring chocolate soldier's, Hitler like `stand and fight' order. They make clear that their casualties are massively under reported. And that the offensive took them completely by surprise. Their forces appear to be demoralized and without a clue as to whats actually going on much less what to do about it.
Wonder if the caller was in St. Petersburg

Another clip from Ukrainian TV- This one has English subtitles and is actual reporting from the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX6e3wr34BM

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 04 Sep 2014 19:16

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/kre ... story.html

Kremlin warns Ukraine against joining NATO

MOSCOW — The Kremlin on Thursday underscored Russia’s opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine, warning that such a move could derail efforts to end the conflict in eastern Ukraine, as leaders of the alliance gathered for a key summit in Wales.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov also told the United States not to try to impose its own will on Kiev.

...
But Lavrov said Ukraine’s attempts to abandon its nonaligned status by joining the NATO alliance could “derail all efforts aimed at initiating a dialogue with the aim of ensuring national security,” according to the Russian news agency ITAR-TASS.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 04 Sep 2014 23:09

maybe a little CT but the youtube video uploaded by SBU , showing the intercepted call between the rebels and the "russian" officer was supposedly created on the 16'th a day before the crash july 17'th

source of file
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw

Copy of file with decryption key
https://mega.co.nz/#!aMcjVY5S!YJBApu2HD ... ah_D9cRhYc

any video wizards here can confirm encoded time from the source video or the mp4 i downloaded

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Sep 2014 02:00

There's really no point complaining to the Beeb. It's as bad as the Yawn and co. from across the border.

Is this light at the end of the tunnel,or the headlight of an approaching train?! Choco soldier is attending the NATO summit,pleading for mil. aid and some sort of insurance against Russia.Will the likes of CaMoron and co. sabotage a ceasefire wanting the crisis to continue?

Kiev & self-defense forces ready for Friday ceasefire if Minsk talks successful
Published time: September 04, 2014

The Ukrainian president and the heads of the self-proclaimed People's Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk have said they are ready to order a ceasefire if peace talks in Minsk, Belarus on Friday are successful.

"At 14:00 local time (11:00GMT Friday), provided the [Minsk] meeting takes place, I will call on the General Staff to set up a bilateral ceasefire and we hope that the implementation of the peace plan will begin tomorrow," Petro Poroshenko said on the sidelines of a NATO summit in Wales on Thursday.

On Wednesday, Poroshenko expressed “great hope” that the peace process in Ukraine will commence in Minsk on September 5, when representatives of Kiev, Moscow and OSCE (Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe) are scheduled to meet.

The self-proclaimed People's Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk are “ready to order a ceasefire tomorrow on September 5, 2014 at 15:00 local time (12:00GMT) if agreement is reached and the Ukrainian representatives sign up to the plan for a political settlement of the conflict,” the leaders of the two republics said in a joint statement.

The People's Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk “will also present their proposals on the ceasefire, which would describe in detail the guarantees of implementation of the truce by the sides involved in the conflict, to the contact group in Minsk on Friday,” the statement added.

The announcements pave the way for implementing the 7-step peace plan, which was proposed to the conflicting sides by Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday.

READ MORE: Putin lays out 7-step plan to stop hostilities in E. Ukraine

The Russian president’s proposals envisage: a the halt to the militia’s advances in the Donetsk and Lugansk Regions; withdrawal of Kiev troops to a distance that makes shelling impossible; objective international control over the ceasefire; a ban on the use of combat aircrafts against civilians; unconditional prisoner exchange; organization of humanitarian corridors, and provision of direct access for repair crews to destroyed infrastructure.

The heads of the self-proclaimed People’s Republics of Donetsk and Lugansk said that they are ready to implement the ceasefire at 11:00GMT on Friday, on condition that Kiev subscribes to the plan for a political settlement to the conflict.

Ukraine has been engulfed in violent internal conflict since April, when Kiev’s military began its crackdown on the southeastern regions of the country.

According to United Nations’ estimates released on Tuesday, over 2,249 people have been killed so far and more than 6,033 wounded in the fighting in eastern Ukraine.

The number of internally displaced Ukrainians has reached 190,000, with another 207,000 finding refuge in Russia, the UN said.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... er-ukraine
The Moron of Cam compares Putin with Hitler!

David Cameron and the cynicism of comparing Putin to Hitler
Vladimir Putin is responsible for some awful human rights abuses in Ukraine, but Cameron drawing parallels to Hitler is a cheap, politically motivated shot

Owen Jones
theguardian.com, Wednesday 3 September 2014
Prime Minister David Cameron addresses members of the Nato Parliamentary Assembly. ‘The Hitler comparisons intend simply to shut down any reasoned discussion, demonise all those who are not hawks, and to ratchet up tension.’ Photograph: Chris Radburn/PA

Oh, here we go. The west’s escalating showdown with Vladimir Putin has led to Adolf Hitler being invoked. According to David Cameron, the west risks “repeating the mistakes made in Munich in ‘38”, making it clear the role he sees the Russian leader as assuming. Putin was able to flatten Chechnya at the beginning of the century without such inflammatory comparisons – Tony Blair even cheered him on – but it was only a matter of time before western leaders began flinging Nazi comparisons around in the Ukraine crisis.

The west comparing its latest enemy number to the German Fuhrer has been a standard tactic for decades. When Egypt’s General Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal in 1956, Britain’s prime minister, Anthony Eden, compared him to Hitler, while Labour’s Hugh Gaitskell opted for a comparison with Benito Mussolini. Serbia’s Slobodan Milosevic was the Hitler of the late 1990s, and the US dabbled with describing former Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in these terms too. On the eve of the Iraq war, Saddam Hussein was repeatedly compared to Hitler, with Donald Rumsfeld even casting George W Bush in the role of Winston Churchill. The media abounded with such parallels in the build-up to the Iraq disaster, with one Telegraph article headlined “Appeasement won’t stop Saddam any more than Hitler” and even suggesting Iraq could bomb Southampton. On either sides of his rapprochement with the west, Libya’s Colonel Gaddafi faced the Hitler treatment, too.

In and of themselves, these comparisons are self-evidently ludicrous. Hitler was a racist totalitarian dictator who presided over the world’s only attempt at industrialised genocides of entire peoples, killing tens of millions in the process. It is possible to regard foreign leaders as deeply unpleasant and abusive of basic human rights without believing they are Hitler. There is plenty of space between “democracy that respects human rights” and “genocidal totalitarian regime with ambitions to conquer much of the world”. Cameron’s comparison will undoubtedly fuel anti-western sentiment among the Russian population: after all, the Soviet Union was absolutely instrumental in the defeat of Nazism, suffering well over 20 million fatalities. In the case of Russia, comparisons to Hitler could hardly be more insulting.

But the propaganda purpose is clear. Hitler is the most despised leader in history; everybody rational agrees that intervening was the right thing to do in that case. Those who demanded his appeasement are utterly discredited by history, and therefore it is highly effective to regard opponents of current western wars as the same dangerously naive, inadvertent friends of tyrants that can only be defeated. It is obvious in hindsight that the appeasers were wrong; their inheritors will one day be seen in just the same way after they have inflicted similar damage, or so the narrative goes.

There is no doubting the pernicious role of Putin. Pro-Russian rebels in the so-called Dontesk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic have been found to be arbitrarily detaining civilians and subjecting them to torture and other terrible mistreatment. Terrible human rights abuses have been committed by such rebels.

But let’s not pretend Ukraine’s government are champions of human rights either. According to Human Rights Watch, they have been using “indiscriminate rockets in populated areas” in violation of international humanitarian law. There have been unlawful, indiscriminate attacks by both government and rebels in Luhansk, and Ukraine’s government has shelled civilians in Dontesk, too. Amnesty International has similarly damned pro-Kiev vigilantes in eastern Ukraine. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian civilians have fled for the Russian border.

War between the west and Russia is clearly unthinkable, and only a negotiated settlement involving all parties in Ukraine can provide lasting peace. The ceasefire announced by Ukraine and Russia is promising, and needs to be supported to ensure that it lasts. Let’s resist the Hitler comparisons, which intend simply to shut down any reasoned discussion, to demonise all those who are not hawks, and to ratchet up tension. Soon enough, though, western leaders will settle on a new enemy number one, and the Hitler comparisons will begin all over again.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 05 Sep 2014 08:44

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/kot_ivan ... 81_900.jpgLatest situation map:

The pocket South of donetsk (contained 1 mechanised brigade and 2 Tank battallions) seems to have been reduced and
some Ukrainian forces are trying to fight their way out. (Blue arrow pointing West).

Rebels have made some gains in the North (striped pink area)
The large Ukrainian pocket in the South-Centre of the map appears completely cut off. A smaller pocket in the East adjoining the
Russian border seems in the process of surrendering (they have been offered a humanitarian corridor into Russia).

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2014 09:38

looking at map there is ample opportunity if manpower and fuel is available for pincer movements to capture large chunks of land.
the target of one such pincer could be luhansk itself, that will shake up the entire 'donbass front'
if they can round up enough shipping on the coast, a landing west of mariupol is also feasible to close the encirclement and put forth a offer for surrender and safe passage under red cross to the garrison - I believe most will take up the offer.

ukraine is probably keep its best units in reserve near kiev to deal with a sudden russian invasion from the direction of kursk and belgorod that is alarmingly close to kiev.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Sep 2014 10:07

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... poroshenko
Nato leaders cautiously welcome Ukraine ceasefire agreement
Both Ukrainian military and pro-Russia rebels have agreed to a ceasefire under terms proposed by Vladimir Putin

Ewen MacAskill in Newport and Shaun Walker in Mariupol
The Guardian, Thursday 4 September 2014

David Cameron (left) with Ukrainian prime minister Petro Poroshenko (right). Photograph: Pool/Getty Images

Nato leaders cautiously welcomed an apparent breakthrough in the five-month Ukrainian conflict after the country's president, Petro Poroshenko, and one of the leading pro-Russia separatist leaders agreed to order a ceasefire on Friday.

But Poroshenko, who expressed cautious optimism about the truce, caught Nato officials off-guard with the disclosure that, while Nato was not arming Ukraine, at least one country, which he did not name, was providing Kiev with high-precision weapons.

The ceasefire, part of a seven-point peace plan proposed by the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, on Wednesday, would freeze forces in their positions at around midday on Friday.

Meanwhile, events on the ground remained volatile on Thursday, with a column of rebel armour spotted in the direction of Mariupol and reports of Ukrainian forces shelling the outskirts of Donetsk. In spite of the proposed truce, the US and the UK remain sceptical about Putin's intentions and urged more diplomatic and economic pressure, including the threat of increased sanctions. As part of that, the EU is expected to go ahead on Friday with new sanctions against Russia.

Poroshenko made the ceasefire announcement at the Nato summit in Newport where he met David Cameron with US president Barack Obama, German chancellor Angela Merkel, French president François Hollande and Italian prime minister Matteo Renzi.

At a press conference with the Nato secretary general Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Poroshenko said he hoped the ceasefire would happen, but he remained suspicious because Putin had proposed it.

Rasmussen said he had seen similar moves before by Russia that had been smokescreens, but he would welcome a serious political settlement.

Poroshenko said that provided a peace meeting in Minsk planned for Friday between Russia, Ukraine and the European security organisation the OSCE goes ahead as planned, he would call a halt to Ukrainian military attempts to regain territory held by the separatists. "I will call on the general staff to set up a bilateral ceasefire," he said.

Alexander Zakharchenko, the separatist leader, said he would order a ceasefire an hour later. The rebels are proposing the creation of "security zones" that would be policed by representatives of the OSCE and the establishment of a corridor for refugees.

Reaching a lasting peace agreement will be difficult. Ukrainian authorities are unlikely to accept any settlement that involves recognising rebel control over parts of Ukrainian territory, but are aware that Kiev's forces have suffered such losses in the past fortnight that they cannot go on fighting.

The White House expressed support for Poroshenko's "efforts to achieve a peaceful resolution to the conflict", and pinned the blame for the conflict on Putin, condemning Russia's "flagrant violation of Ukraine's sovereignty".

Nato has ruled out intervening in Ukraine with troops or equipment and pressure from the West has come mainly through sanctions.

Poroshenko caught Nato officials off-guard with the disclosure. He did not name the country involved but only a relatively small number of countries, such as the US, Poland or even Britain, have both the necessary equipment and the sympathy for the Ukrainian cause.

Such weapons are desperately needed by Ukraine because it is confronting an estimated 100 tanks and it does not have the kind of anti-tank weapons that can be fired at distance.

The number of Russian troops were said by Ukraine to be in the thousands rather than just 1,000, suggesting an escalation rather than de-escalation. Such an assessment by Poroshenko casts serious doubts over the prospect of a deal in Minsk.

Nato, at the end of the two-day summit, is to issue a strongly-worded document condemning Russian actions in the Ukraine, declaring Moscow to be in breach of international agreements. There have been disagreements over the wording with the US, Britain and Poland seeking tough language and Germany seeking to water it down.

European Union ambassadors meeting in Brussels agreed that restrictions imposed on Russian state-owned banks will be extended to state-owned defence and energy firms. The US and Britain pushed for the sanctions to go ahead in spite of the ceasefire but other countries were more hesitant.

The sanctions come after France, under pressure for going ahead with the export of Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, finally caved in and said it will delay the contract because of events in Ukraine.

Hollande said delivery of the first ship, which had been scheduled for October, is dependent on the ceasefire holding and a political settlement being reached.

Some European foreign ministers sounded more upbeat about the ceasefire than the White House. A German spokesman said that the contacts between Kiev and Moscow appeared more solid now than at any time over the last five months.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2014 11:10

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/05/world ... pe=article

russia has adopted a liberal policy of allowing lakhs of refugees from eastern ukraine a chance to start a new life in the far flung corners of the republic, get work permit and a path of new citizenship. many who are relatively able bodied are taking it up.
they are moving people quickly through the border camps rather than let them rot with no hope there and intend to close these camps before the bitter winter arrives.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 05 Sep 2014 12:21

Singha wrote:looking at map there is ample opportunity if manpower and fuel is available for pincer movements to capture large chunks of land.
the target of one such pincer could be luhansk itself, that will shake up the entire 'donbass front'
if they can round up enough shipping on the coast, a landing west of mariupol is also feasible to close the encirclement and put forth a offer for surrender and safe passage under red cross to the garrison - I believe most will take up the offer.

Last night separatist forces reached the eastern and northeastern edges of Mariupol. This morning, they opened up with artillery and rocket fire against Ukrainian positions along the outskirts. Barrages interspersed with machine gun fire have been heard since then.
There was a report that an effort to organize a Mariupol volunteer battalion failed.

Video of a Grad strike on the outskirts of the city - supposedly hit a Ukrainian convoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTa3ATRxMq0

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2014 14:09

the garrison is going to get cut off unless they run as fast as possible to the west along the coast and across the dnieper.
crimea and the sea are not an option as the sea of azov has become a russia lake with control of the kerch straits.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Sep 2014 16:02

MARIUPOL, Ukraine (AP) — Shelling resounded on the outskirts of a key Ukrainian port Friday as Russian-backed rebels pressed their southeast offensive just hours ahead of talks that are widely hoped to bring a cease-fire.

Associated Press reporters heard heavy shelling on Friday morning north and east of Mariupol. The strategic city of about 500,000 lies along the Sea of Azov, between Russia to the east and the Crimean Peninsula to the west, which Russia annexed in March.

The sound of incoming and outgoing shelling from different directions appeared to indicate that rebels have partially surrounded the area and are probing its defenses. The onslaught could be aimed at increasing pressure on the Ukrainian government ahead of peace talks in Minsk, Belarus.

The seizure of Mariupol would give the rebels a strong foothold on the Sea of Azov and raise the threat that they carve out a land corridor between Russia and Crimea. If that happens, Ukraine would lose another huge chunk of its sea coast and access to the rich hydrocarbon resources the Sea of Azov is believed to hold. Ukraine ready lost about half its coastline, several major ports and untold billions in Black Sea mineral rights with Russia's annexation of Crimea.

"Mariupol is a strategic point. If we lose it then we could lose the entire coastline, the whole south of Ukraine," said Tatyana Chronovil, a prominent Ukrainian activist at a mustering point for the volunteer Azov Battalion on the eastern edge of the city.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 05 Sep 2014 19:10

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/she ... story.html

Poroshenko announces accord on cease-fire in eastern Ukraine

KIEV, Ukraine — The Ukrainian government and pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine agreed Friday to a temporary cease-fire, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said, raising the prospect of at least a brief respite in an increasingly bloody conflict.

After several hours of talks, a team of negotiators in Minsk, Belarus, agreed that both sides would stop firing at 6:00 p.m. local time, or 11:00 a.m. in Washington. Poroshenko said he would work with international monitors to ensure that the terms of the cease-fire were observed.

It was not immediately clear what other terms were part of the agreement, and envoys from Ukraine, Russia, the rebels and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) returned to a closed-door conference room after briefly emerging to announce the cease-fire.

“The highest value is human life, and we must do everything possible to stop the bloodshed and put an end to suffering,” Poroshenko said in a statement posted on his Web site.

anmol · Post by **anmol** » 05 Sep 2014 19:29

Ukraine: A Catastrophic Defeat
Tim Judah, nybooks.com
September 3rd 2014

The scale of the devastation suffered by Ukrainian forces in southeastern Ukraine over the last week has to be seen to be believed. It amounts to a catastrophic defeat and will long be remembered by embittered Ukrainians as among the darkest days of their history.

A week ago a major rebel offensive began. On September 3 on a sixteen-mile stretch of road from the village of Novokaterinivka to the town of Ilovaysk, I counted the remains of sixty-eight military vehicles, tanks, armored personnel carriers, pick-ups, buses, and trucks in which a large but as yet unknown number of Ukrainian soldiers died as they tried to flee the area between August 28 and September 1. They had been ambushed by rebel forces and, according to survivors, soldiers from the army of the Russian Federation.

These destroyed vehicles were of course only the ones I could see—those that were not destroyed are now in the hands of rebels. In Novokaterinivka, which is twenty-eight miles southeast of the rebel-held city of Donetsk, the body of a Ukrainian soldier was folded over the high power cable onto which he had been flung when his armored vehicle exploded, his clothes hanging off him. In what was left of the vehicle nearby were the charred remains of half a man and the grilled body of another, left where he had been sitting when he was killed.

On September 3, eighty-seven bodies were reported to have arrived in Zaporizhia, a large city in the region that is under Ukrainian control. But, more are yet to be found. Quite apart from the appalling military setback is the humiliation. At one ambush site two fresh graves marked with crosses made of sticks indicated that the dead had been buried close to their burned out vehicles by the side of the road. On the main street of Novokaterinivka locals posed for pictures in front of destroyed vehicles and cars that had been jacked up with logs because undamaged wheels had been unscrewed and looted. Euphoric rebel soldiers there told us they were “cleaning up”—looking for remaining Ukrainians who had fled into the fields and were still there.

A colleague told me that nearby, two Ukrainian soldiers had jumped out onto the road and stopped his car. They were about eighteen years old, he said, had been hiding in a field of sunflowers, and looked as though they had not slept for days. When they saw a car with the initials TV taped onto it, which is used to signify that there are journalists in it, they took their chance. They begged him and his colleagues for a lift and then for food and water. The Ukrainian media has begun to report on stories of stragglers limping in to safe territory and more than five hundred Ukrainians are reported to have been captured in this area. One called Sergey, who had been detained and released, said that the men who captured him said they were Russian regular soldiers: “They told us they had arrived two weeks earlier. They were very young.”

The fortunes of war have changed dramatically in the past two weeks. In spring, anti-Kiev rebels, taking the new and revolutionary Ukrainian government by surprise, seized towns and cities across the two predominantly industrial and mining regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. At first, Ukrainian forces either fell apart, were captured, or defected to the rebel side. By summer, however, the Ukrainians were better organized and went on the offensive driving the rebels back.

Rebel-held Luhansk came under a virtual siege, and was heavily shelled by Ukrainian forces, though bizarrely it is still possible to get to the town on a suburban train. Large parts of Donetsk too came under shelling from Ukrainian forces. Some areas have been badly damaged and targeting has been so woefully inaccurate that hundreds of civilians have been killed in the process. The result is that, by August, many ordinary people who did not care that much about who ruled them hated the government in Kiev and Ukraine as a whole.

Then, in the last two weeks of August, everything changed again. The Ukrainians said that regular Russian troops were crossing the border, a contention supported by western intelligence reports. More and more stories are being written in the Russian press too about soldiers killed in action in Ukraine, though the Russian government flatly denies that any regular soldiers—as opposed to volunteers who have come on their own—have crossed the frontier. However not only is there mounting evidence of the presence of regular Russian soldiers but the fact that the military situation has changed so rapidly also suggests the rebels have acquired new strength. Today, Donetsk is a much safer city than it was a few weeks ago. The reason for that is that Ukrainian forces have been pushed back though the two sides still trade artillery and Grad rocket fire every day.

This dramatic shift in the conflict is also made clear in the carnage on the road between Ilovaysk and Novokaterinivka and in the middle of fields across which some vehicles had tried to escape. Many of the vehicles, which had been coming in different convoys, from different places—though the bulk of them from Ilovaysk—had been not only professionally ambushed but utterly destroyed, meaning that much bigger weapons than rocket-propelled grenades had been used. Tank turrets had been hurled far from the rest of the tanks to which they had been attached, for example.

What all this reveals is that those attacking the pro-government forces were highly professional and using very powerful weapons. It also suggests there must have been a lot of men along the roads to be able to take out so many vehicles and soldiers, more or less at the same time. Gennadiy Dubovoy, who said he was chief editor of a rebel newspaper and who was dressed in military fatigues, estimated that there had been 2,000 Ukrainians in flight when the ambushes occurred.

The fighting in Ilovaysk began on August 7 when units from three Ukrainian volunteer militias and the police attempted to take it back from rebel control. It was heavily shelled. The rebels were never driven out, though, but held on to part of the town. Then, on August 28, they were able to launch a major offensive, with help from elsewhere, including Donetsk—though “not Russia,” according to Commander Givi, the thirty-four-year-old head of rebel forces here. By September 1 it was all over and the Ukrainians had been decisively defeated.

The Ukrainians claim that their units had made a deal to gain free passage out of Ilovaysk and that Russian President Vladimir Putin himself had said they should be allowed to go. But Commander Givi, whose real name is Mikhail Tolstykh and who said that he worked in a rope factory before the war, denied there had been any agreement. The ambushing forces, he said, were militias not regular soldiers—“we don’t know who they are.” Their numbers had been boosted, he claimed, by foreigners, including Czechs, Hungarians, and “niggers.” When he arrived at his HQ he came in a big, shiny car with music blasting and some of his men in the back cradling guns in their laps with the muzzles sticking out of the windows.

The next targets, says Commander Givi, are the port of Mariupol in the south, on the Azov Sea, and Sloviansk, which had been a rebel bastion until the rebels retreated from it on July 5.

The situation on the Sea of Azov, an appendage of the Black Sea surrounded by Crimea in the west, southeastern Ukraine in the north, and Russia in the east, has, as in the regions further north, changed dramatically in the last couple of weeks. On August 27 the border crossing to Russia was taken by the rebels after it had been shelled with a few mortars and the Ukrainians there, with far less firepower, fled. They fled the nearby town of Novoazovsk too. On August 30 I saw a group of twenty people with their arms stretched up to heaven by the main checkpoint on the eastern outskirts of Mariupol praying for peace and for the protection of the city while volunteers assembled to dig trenches.

That weekend it was unclear how far the rebels had advanced because no one seemed to be in control of large areas. We passed a checkpoint close to Novoazovsk manned by men who seemed to be locals but were eating ration packs clearly marked as Russian army-issue. Behind us at various points we had seen tanks dug in. The road from the border with Russia appeared to be rutted with tank tracks, though Aleksandr Demonov, the rebel press spokesman, claimed that the marks had been made by a bulldozer pushing giant concrete bollards that the Ukrainians had put on the road out of the way.

At the village of Bezimenne, where you can see the sea from the road, we stopped to ask some people who was manning the next checkpoint and if it was safe. There was a Russian checkpoint at the exit of the village, they said. They could have used “Russian” to mean “rebel,” but in this case the men, who had modern communications equipment and some jeeps of a type which I have not seen elsewhere, did not seem in the mood to chat and ordered us to go. On the other side of the road was a tank, whose cannon was not pointing ahead to the Ukrainians whom we met a few minutes further down the road but out to sea.

As we sped away from the “Russians” we could see a column of black smoke rising from the sea. When we got to the Ukrainian checkpoint the men told us that it was a coastguard cutter that had been hit, they thought by a tank. They were from the Azov Battalion, one of the Ukrainian volunteer militias. On their vehicles and their arm flashes they had the “wolfsangel,” a neo-Nazi symbol, which is their insignia and which tells you much of what you need to know about their background. (On September 4, they were driven out of this position as the rebels, and presumably regular Russian forces, too, advanced.)

In Mariupol, people were packing the 5:05 PM train to Kiev. It was the end of the summer holidays, but many were also leaving because of the situation. Many of those leaving Mariupol were already refugees from Donetsk and elsewhere. Mariupol felt eerily empty, and like Donetsk from which perhaps half of its million people have fled, many of those who remain are elderly. The city is sharply divided. Half those I talked to supported the government in Kiev and the other half the rebels. But people are confused and loyalties shifting. Some told me they used to support the rebels but now supported Ukraine and vice versa.

Back in Ilovaysk, I went to see the school in which the Ukrainian militias had been living before being driven out. Extraordinary footage has been filmed of their days here showing them shooting from the windows and dousing fires started by incoming bullets. Now it is totally silent.

There were eleven destroyed vehicles around the school. In a store cupboard by the gym where many had been sleeping I came across a polystyrene Father Christmas. Outside there were some graves in which—according to Vergil, the twenty-year-old soldier who had been detailed by Commander Givi to show us around—the battalions had buried civilians they had killed. There was no way to verify this and the graves might well contain their own dead, though Vergil said that they had taken those bodies away. Vergil told us that he was from Luhansk and had been doing his Ukrainian military service in April. His unit had been captured and told that they could either leave or join the rebels.

On the road back to Donetsk there is a long straight stretch lined by tall trees. In the distance we could see something. Realizing it was a military convoy, we pulled over and I jumped out. The car leading the convoy of four tanks and three APCs topped with dozens of men screeched to a halt, as did all the cars that were behind us. Armed men jumped out of the car demanding to know what we were doing—one jabbing his fingers at the TV tape on the car. A fat, angry man with gold front teeth demanded our phones. A stocky lady in her fifties sat in the back of their car pointing her sniper rifle out of the window at my colleague a few meters away.

After a few minutes the neat tall man standing in front of me told me to put my hands down and asked me in good English where I was from. He told me he had once lived in Lausanne. As the situation cooled the angry fat man returned our accreditations and passports and the woman still pointing her gun at my female colleague began blowing kisses at her. The fat man got back in his car with our phones but our translator stuck her foot in the door yelling at him to return them, which eventually he did. The entire convoy then juddered back into action.

The tanks looked relatively modern. As they pulled away, a man whose head was sticking out of the hatch at the top of a tank waved at us. His features were central Asian. A large proportion of Russian conscripts are central Asians. The men on top of the APCs looked like locals, but if the tanks were Russian army ones, this could explain the otherwise inexplicable rage of the fat man encountering journalists seeing his convoy.

The war has a taken a decisive turn. There is now talk of a ceasefire, an advance on Mariupol, new sanctions on Russia, and what NATO might do at its summit in Wales now under way. According to the UN a million people have already been displaced by the war. Putin reportedly told José Manuel Barroso, the president of the European Commission, that he could take in Kiev in two weeks. The Ukrainians have suffered major reverses in the past few days, but they have not lost the war yet, though Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko must now be wondering if he should cut his country’s losses and sue for peace. Poroshenko knows that alone, Ukraine cannot win a war against Russia; and one hundred years after the beginning of World War I, it is not clear that anyone is going to rush to help him win either.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 05 Sep 2014 21:35

^^
Cannot really argue against it. Umrikhans wanted to create a new pakistan and they did it. Good thing is Russians behaved the way they should have instead of indulging in useless bahanebaazi. Russians will get their chance, in time.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 Sep 2014 22:20

nageshks wrote: This is a given. Trouble in the north east or Kashmir is what I predict will be West's next step, once they see Modi is no poodle.

Yes, confrontation is looming. It is looking more and more like the oppressed "lumpenproletariat" Indian low-caste ajlaf masses will be India's own Cossacks, and will be a key player in the northeast at least, and maybe even in Kashmir.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 Sep 2014 22:25

habal wrote:strategic weapons must always be either home-made or of Russian origin or collaboration, there is no guarantee that western systems won't just blow out of the sky on self-destruct mode.

Home made. Let's not forget cryogenic engines saga.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 05 Sep 2014 23:05

India should buy S-400's like China to be prepared for US invasion.

Admin - stick to the topic TSJ - no random rants

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 05 Sep 2014 23:32

Dunno why the Chinese are buying those S400s. You only need good old AKs. Like in Vietnam.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 05 Sep 2014 23:42

This ceasefire is not going to hold. Poroshenko cant beat the rebels. He cant join them now either.
The ethnic russians have had enough of the maidan geniuses. Its their homes and cities that have faced the brunt of the conflict.
Washington is going to continue prompting Poroshenko to finger the Russians. Now he is dependent on the west for finances too. Cant say no to them.
It would make sense for Putin to arm the rebels to the teeth. When the next conflict comes they should be ready to overrun Kiev.
Ukraine`s goose is cooked. Its fate is no longer in its hands anymore. Others will decide what course it takes now. Thats what happens when lesser people like Arsenic and Poroshenko and Nehru rule a state.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 06 Sep 2014 00:03

And here the Russians are beginning to have a good time after winning the war.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... tweet.html

Toy tank tweet.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 06 Sep 2014 02:19

All tnis rah-rah about tanks in the armor thread and then you see them in these wonderful states on roadside in eukraine. matchboxes would have withstood worse. there is one image of a withdrawing ukrainian tank running into the road barrier. squashed like a bug.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2014 02:30

Leaders talk about peace, but in eastern Ukraine the reality looks more like war
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 12944.html

There was artillery shelling, tank fire and gun battles, retreating soldiers and reports of warships putting out to sea, but, amid all the strife, there were also signs of a truce as Ukraine’s bitter civil war moved towards a defining phase.

Speaking at the Nato summit in Wales where the conflict in his country, and Russia’s role in it, has taken centre stage, President Petro Poroshenko said he will order a ceasefire if the framework for a deal is agreed in meetings due to be held today. This was followed by leaders of two separatist people’s republics, Alexander Zakharenko of Donetsk and Igor Plotinsky of Luhansk, also declaring they were ready to follow suit.

But even as the leaders talked about possible peace, there were violent developments taking place.

Firefights were followed by an advance by the rebels towards Mariupol, a port and a vital strategic point, and government forces retreated from positions around Luhansk, which they had laid siege to for weeks. They also abandoned some checkpoints to the south of Donetsk, the main rebel centre in the east. But, at the same time, artillery rounds were fired into Donetsk, the main separatist stronghold: a barrage the previous day had left the city without water.

The rapid movements on the ground could be attempts to maximize gain before a ceasefire following the talks at the Belarus capital, Minsk. But a failure to achieve a deal leaves the military balance in favour of the rebels. Kiev and the West have repeatedly accused the Kremlin of backing them with weapons and, in their recent advance, Russian troops.

The capture of Mariupol would complete a land corridor to Crimea and leave Russia in control of the Azov Sea coastline. Today there were clashes to the east of the city with some artillery rounds hitting homes in outer suburbs. Ukrainian troops took up defensive positions with some commanders saying they expected an attempt to take over the city, while others dismissed the prospect of a full assault.

Serhiy Taruta, the Kiev-appointed governor of Donetsk region, who was forced to flee to Mariupol after Donetsk was taken over by separatists, stated: “We are fighting to repel the DNR (Donetsk People’s Republic), Russia and whoever else wants to come here”. But, he wanted to stress: “We are hoping for a ceasefire, talks and resolution of all unresolved issues within a sovereign Ukraine.”

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian military claimed that two Russian frigates were on the Azov Sea heading towards Mariupol, but they had not been sighted by nightfall. What was seen further along the coast a few days ago was a Ukrainian coast guard vessel on fire, with no clear indication of what had happened.

The confusion and fog of this civil war was evident among Ukrainian soldiers. Some, at a checkpoint towards Mariupol, said they had been asked to reinforce the defences of the port. But more than a few were bemused by the actions of their political masters. “We are told we must defend our land, we’ll do so gladly” said a chief sergeant. “But we also hear that there will be a deal with the terrorists which will mean that we have to withdraw from this land, which is a part of Ukraine. So we do not know what is going on. I just hope we are not asked to retreat.”

Some of his comrades, however, already appeared to be in the process of retreating. A Channel 4 television news team discovered a column heading away from Novoaidor, 60km east of Luhansk. Rebel forces from the city had, meanwhile, broken out to recapture a number of crossing points.

A number of Ukrainian positions south of Donetsk were unmanned. At one checkpoint 90km away, the prevailing feeling, again, was that troops were being let down, by their government, by the West, by Nato.

“I have been a soldier for just five months. I joined because I wanted to defend my country from the criminals sent by Putin,” said Mykhailo, a former teacher told The Independent. He had spent almost the same number of months at the Maidan protests in Kiev which brought down the government of Viktor Yanukovych.

“We were fighting for democracy in the Maidan. We had plenty of encouragement from America, England, from Germany. But where are they now when the Russians come to bring back the Soviet Union. Where’s Nato? They are having a meeting? Well they have done nothing while our government is being forced to negotiate with the criminals. Are they so foolish that they think the Russians will just stop with this part of Ukraine?”

Near the checkpoint a red-and-black flag of Right Sector, a right-wing nationalist group which has become the object of hatred among Russian-speakers, fluttered in the wind. “I do not know who that belongs to,” shrugged Mykhailo, who has the rank of Senior Soldier. “I am certainly not a member. Anyway, the right-wing parties did badly at our elections. At least there was a vote. There will be no votes if the Russians take over: that is why we need to fight.”

But for many civilians caught up in the unrelenting rounds of killings, the overwhelming craving was for peace. The walls of 64-year-old Katarina Anisimova’s home in Donetsk have large cracks from ordnance which had been landing regularly in the neighbourhood. “This house was painted by Aleksandr, this is him.” She held out a photograph of her 33-year-old son. “He was killed walking across the street by rockets, a month ago.” Who was doing the firing? “They say it is the fascists, the Right Sector, I don’t know. But we want this to stop; if they are talking they must put an end to this. Have you seen what they have done to Donetsk? They are killing this city as they killed my son.”

The bustling metropolis with a population of more than a million is now a place of emptiness. Shops, businesses, cafes and restaurants are largely shut. There are old bloodstains on the pavements outside Mrs Anisimova’s home; the small number of civilians around hurry off to their homes as dusk falls. The nights belong to the camouflaged gunmen of the separatist movement driving around to the sound of shelling.

They, too, want to continue the fight. “Why should we stop now we are winning?” Leonid Golovkin, 23, was genuinely puzzled. “They thought they were going to crush us. Now those in Kiev, the junta, just want to get time to get more weapons. That is what Poroshenko is doing now, trying to get weapons and mercenaries from Nato. Even if they agree something, it’s not going to last. Too much blood has been shed – people will want revenge.”

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 06 Sep 2014 02:36

RSoami wrote:Dunno why the Chinese are buying those S400s. You only need good old AKs. Like in Vietnam.

A poster that passed by this forum long time ago had said this here:

wong wrote: The US couldn't beat China in the Korean war when it was dirt poor and coming off 40 years of civil war and invasion. It's really not even a possibility now. The US doesn't even dare go kick Iran and North Korea's ass and has trouble fighting illiterate Afghans who only have an AK-47 and one goat (Afghan MRE).

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 06 Sep 2014 03:15

Makes Sense?
Putin's Trap

According to Lukin, the Donbas isn’t the goal at all: “No one in the Kremlin needs the Donetsk People’s Republic, the Luhansk People’s Republic [the self-styled secessionist entities in the Donbas], or New Russia,” he said. Indeed, “to win the Donbas and to lose Ukraine would be a defeat for the Kremlin.” When pressed further about the purpose of the Kremlin’s agitation in the region, Lukin responded that one should “forget the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. The goal is to demonstrate to [Ukrainian President Petro] Poroshenko that he cannot win.” Russia, he said, would “introduce as many [troops] as necessary to persuade Poroshenko that he must negotiate with whomever Putin chooses.” In his commentary about the interview, Gelman went on to explain that, according to Lukin, both Donetsk and Luhansk will serve “as guarantees of [Ukraine’s] nonmembership in NATO.” After all, “any referendum on joining any bloc would have to take place in every region, and if only one were against, then the country could not join.” The Kremlin’s ideal outcome, according to Lukin, is that “everything should go back to as it was under Yanukovych, but without Yanukovych.”

When asked how long the violence would continue, Lukin explained, “We’re in no hurry. [Poroshenko] is the one who needs to hurry. Or else the girl with the braid” -- former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko -- “will eat him up. Poroshenko’s chair is on fire beneath his butt, not ours.” But people do not need to continue to die. “It was because of the false certainty of the Ukrainians that they could win that they proceeded so actively with the Anti-Terrorist Operation,” Lukin explained. Now, “everyone sees they cannot win” and so “the most militarily active stage has passed.”

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 06 Sep 2014 03:18

so why are they buying S-400's from your BFF the Russians?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2014 05:54

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/s ... ire-russia

Heavy shelling in Ukrainian port of Mariupol hours before agreed ceasefire
Reports of overnight artillery fire by Russia-backed rebels on key eastern port of Mariupol as truce set to take effect from midday

Hours before an expected ceasefire in eastern Ukraine, heralded as a significant breakthrough by Nato leaders meeting in Newport, heavy shelling has been heard on the outskirts of Mariupol.

A commander of a Ukrainian volunteer militia based in the key eastern port city told Reuters: "We were under fire all night but we are still keeping the rebels at bay. They are facing us with tanks and artillery."

The mayor of Mariupol, Yuri Khotlubey, told Ukraine's 112 TV channel: "Our artillery has come and is being deployed against the [pro-Russia] rebels."

A series of explosions was also heard in the main eastern rebel hub of Donetsk overnight, apparently coming from the city's airport, according to reports.

Mariupol has become the latest flashpoint in the east of the country as separatists wage a counter-offensive that has seen swaths of land seized from government forces in just a matter of days.

Residents of the government-held city on the Sea of Azov have been digging in for fear of a major onslaught by the rebels, apparently backed by Russian troops and firepower.

By mid-morning, the shelling had died down. Andriy Biletskiy, commander of the far-right Azov battalion which has been doing much of the fighting, said the pro-Russia forces had been pushed back to 20km from the town, having reached 5km on Thursday.

Tanks and other armour from the Ukrainian army arrived late on Thursday evening, he said, and despite coming under heavy artillery fire, the Ukrainians were able to repel the rebel advance.

It was unclear whether the rebel moves had been aimed at a serious assault on the city or were instead an extra bout of pressure to push the Ukrainians to sign a ceasefire deal in Minsk.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2014 06:14

Shaurya,that was a very interesting quote.It makes sense that ultimately Putin and Russia want to control whoever is in power in the UKR,preventing it from embracing NATO and being absorbed by the EU.When Gen.Winter with his army of a million+ freezing icicles,Putin will threaten to turn off the tap of gas unless past debts are paid up.the UKR is bankrupt,$14B in debt and cannot pay for past or future energy supplies.He will also demand that Western sanctions be lifted in return for preventing the UKR from freezing over.It is inevitable that the link from Russia to the Crimea will take place and even Odessa when ripe will be "plucked". The financial burden of the east will be upon the UKR's head,the price for keeping the country together!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2014 06:44

That 16 mile ambush would need lots of well trained infantry artillery and late model rpg and kornet units to hit tanks.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 06 Sep 2014 10:38

Singha wrote:That 16 mile ambush would need lots of well trained infantry artillery and late model rpg and kornet units to hit tanks.

RPG may be, ATGM not seen much at all. T-64 in particular seems tohave done quite badly (also captured by the dozens). And nothing yet (except magazine kaboom) explains the often seen divorce of hull with turret, both still intact by themselves.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 06 Sep 2014 12:23

A lot of Ukrainian tanks and other vehicles trapped inside the pockets were captured intact. I wonder if the crews (instead of destroying them) agreed to sell them to the separatists.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 06 Sep 2014 13:21

TSJones wrote:so why are they buying S-400's from your BFF the Russians?

To ensure that uber-macho Americans do not drop nukes on sleeping women and children like in Hiroshima.

RSoami · Post by **RSoami** » 06 Sep 2014 13:26

Those who were retreating from Ilovaisk were the volunteer battalions salivating at the maidan. The right wingers. The dumb Arsenic and Poroshenko types. The rebels were never going to let them off without a sound beating.
The volunteer battalions have almost been wiped out. The Ukarainian army minus those battalions have little interest in fighting in the east.
Nevertheless, the ceasefire is not going to hold.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2014 22:39

Shaurya,that was a very interesting quote.It makes sense that ultimately Putin and Russia want to control whoever is in power in the UKR,preventing it from embracing NATO and being absorbed by the EU.When Gen.Winter with his army of a million+ freezing icicles,Putin will threaten to turn off the tap of gas unless past debts are paid up.the UKR is bankrupt,$14B in debt and cannot pay for past or future energy supplies.He will also demand that Western sanctions be lifted in return for preventing the UKR from freezing over.It is inevitable that the link from Russia to the Crimea will take place and even Odessa when ripe will be "plucked". The financial burden of the east will be upon the UKR's head,the price for keeping the country together!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 06 Sep 2014 23:12

So when I look at a map of Ukraine, it is like a bull. The ***s are Crimea, the mijjile is maybe near Odessa. So Comrade Putin is doing exactly what Yes Minister advised:

When u have them by the ***s, their Hearts and Minds will follow

Q.E.D.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 07 Sep 2014 01:57

Shreeman wrote:RPG may be, ATGM not seen much at all. T-64 in particular seems tohave done quite badly (also captured by the dozens). And nothing yet (except magazine kaboom) explains the often seen divorce of hull with turret, both still intact by themselves.

No fancy explanation required - RPG's and even light cannon can easily do this to Russian designed tanks. RGP-armed rebels did the same thing to hundreds of Russian tanks in Chechnya. In Gulf War I, US M-2 Bradley IFV's routinely destroyed Iraqi T-72's with 25mm auto cannon. All you have to do is penetrate the armor somewhere; it's very easy to get a fuel fire started on all these models (T-55\62\64\72\80\90). Once hit and burning, any Russian tank will blow its top when the stored ammo cooks off. Unlike most western tanks, Russian tanks are not designed to vent an ammo explosion up and away from the crew. The whole thing just blows sky high, often sending the turret flying.

Our T-90's and T-72's would suffer a similiar fate if they ever had to go up against an opponent armed with more than small arms. The reactive armor would help some, but there would still be a lot of hull penetrations and spectacular cook offs.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 07 Sep 2014 02:10

RSoami wrote:This ceasefire is not going to hold. Poroshenko cant beat the rebels. He cant join them now either.
The ethnic russians have had enough of the maidan geniuses. Its their homes and cities that have faced the brunt of the conflict.
Washington is going to continue prompting Poroshenko to finger the Russians. Now he is dependent on the west for finances too. Cant say no to them.
It would make sense for Putin to arm the rebels to the teeth. When the next conflict comes they should be ready to overrun Kiev.
Ukraine`s goose is cooked. Its fate is no longer in its hands anymore. Others will decide what course it takes now. Thats what happens when lesser people like Arsenic and Poroshenko and Nehru rule a state.

I agree - Putin's a fool if he backs down now. Poroshenko's just buying time to rearm with sophisticated US weaponry, then he will attack again. The Ukrainians don't have time to absorb complex weapons systems like Apache helicopters but they can definitely wreak havoc on the Russians and separatists with simple-to-operate but very deadly weapons like Javelin anti-tank missiles and GPS-guided artillery shells. There's all kinds of extremely deadly weaponry and supporting technology the US can provide at very little cost to themselves, which would put a world of hurt on the relatively primitive Russian forces.

Additional sanctions are already coming regardless; now is the time for Russia to just plow ahead and secure all of Donbass and a land corridor to Crimea. Completely wreck the Ukrainian armed forces while doing so, and ensure they don't want to fight again for a few generations. Then the US can shower them with sophisticated weapons that the beaten-down Ukrainians will have no stomach to use.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 07 Sep 2014 02:15

Y. Kanan wrote:
Shreeman wrote:RPG may be, ATGM not seen much at all. T-64 in particular seems tohave done quite badly (also captured by the dozens). And nothing yet (except magazine kaboom) explains the often seen divorce of hull with turret, both still intact by themselves.
No fancy explanation required - RPG's and even light cannon can easily do this to Russian designed tanks. RGP-armed rebels did the same thing to hundreds of Russian tanks in Chechnya. In Gulf War I, US M-2 Bradley IFV's routinely destroyed Iraqi T-72's with 25mm auto cannon. All you have to do is penetrate the armor somewhere; it's very easy to get a fuel fire started on all these models (T-55\62\64\72\80\90). Once hit and burning, any Russian tank will blow its top when the stored ammo cooks off. Unlike most western tanks, Russian tanks are not designed to vent an ammo explosion up and away from the crew. The whole thing just blows sky high, often sending the turret flying.

Our T-90's and T-72's would suffer a similiar fate if they ever had to go up against an opponent armed with more than small arms. The reactive armor would help some, but there would still be a lot of hull penetrations and spectacular cook offs.

Breakfdfast, lunch and dinner for thought then? RPGs have proliferated like cigarettes in bakistan. Why keep making more T-XXs, at current rates ibdian factories will be making and upgrading them for another decade.