Civil Aviation Development & Discussion

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 27 Sep 2008 03:15

Sam CS wrote:
Purush wrote: You should try the Mallustan-Gulf sector on AI then. The flight attendants actually shout at the passengers (or used to at any rate. I don't know how things are now).
I know some people who will pay good money to be verbally abused by females in uniform. Maybe AI should offer special S&M flights.
The ones to and from Singapore are usually much more subdued, but equally interesting.

I have seen several passengers snap their fingers to call the flight attendants on SQ. Granted they don't speak English, but snapping fingers...?

Most interesting passenger was deegent looking lady in 50s who got on SQ flight and sat on the wrong seat. The rightful owner of seat requests, shouts, screams, begs. The lady plays deaf. Flight attendants tried the same and then seated the other gentleman elsewhere .

My "worst experiance" is on a KLM flight from AMS to Del. This old sardarji starts to complain big time on a air hostes. The girl actually answer back. It was really embarassing being an Indian on the flight.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 27 Sep 2008 12:56

Sam CS wrote:
Purush wrote: You should try the Mallustan-Gulf sector on AI then. The flight attendants actually shout at the passengers (or used to at any rate. I don't know how things are now).
I know some people who will pay good money to be verbally abused by females in uniform. Maybe AI should offer special S&M flights.
The ones to and from Singapore are usually much more subdued, but equally interesting.

SilkAir flights to and from mallustan are very normal. No incidents so far on any of my trips. People just want to get on the plane and sleep their way to their destination after the pathetic in-flight 'meal'. It's a really booooring flight with no IFE in cattle class. Moi has to pass time watching ripped movies on the laptop.

BTW, I just bought a November return ticket SIN-COK via silkair for $805!! What a hike, and Nov is not even the rush season. I flew the same in Jan this year for only SG$590.

I agree, on the gulf sector, blame can be distributed 50-50 among AI staff and passengers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Sep 2008 14:06

my pa in law has this embarassing habit of calling waiters to the table with a snap
of the fingers and a hissing/whistling noise. maybe ok to call chotu in the nukkad tea stall but
certainly not in any higher grade of eatery.
fortunately I have never flown with him yet.

sum · Post by **sum** » 27 Sep 2008 14:42

Link

Plane aborts takeoff to take in minister

KOLKATA/Ranchi: Union minister for food processing Subodh Kant Sahay allegedly forced an airline to reopen the aircraft door after reporting late for the Kolkata-Ranchi flight on Friday morning. The flight took off 20 minutes behind schedule, thanks to the ruckus.

Sahay and his aide reached the airport barely five minutes before the scheduled departure of the Kingfisher Airlines flight and demanded to be let on board. By then, the CJR aircraft was ready to taxi with 10 passengers seated and its door secured for the flight.

Sahay allegedly told Kingfisher staff that the return flight would be grounded in Ranchi if he was not allowed to board. “We tried to explain how difficult it is to reopen the door and fit the ladder. But after his threat, we didn’t have any option but to comply as he holds tremendous clout there,” an aircraft staff said. Sahay is an MP from Ranchi.

When TOI contacted Sahay in Ranchi, he brushed the allegations aside, saying it was a minor matter. “I had checked in over the internet, had the boarding pass and reached the airport 13 minutes prior to departure. The airline staff should not have had any problem,” he said.

Eyewitnesses, however, said the minister barged into the security check area, pushed aside passengers in the queue and then demanded to be allowed to board. Although CISF jawans frisked him, he did not wait for the hand baggage to clear the X-ray machine and boarded the coach before the security gate.

Sahay’s behaviour is in sharp contrast to civil aviation minister Praful Patel, who called up Jet Airways last September when he was caught in a traffic jam in Delhi and asked them to take off without him. He later took a low-cost airline to Kolkata.

All these netas deserve a public lynching some day....

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 29 Sep 2008 13:05

Only Indians can head airline security

MUMBAI: It is an official government order now: only Indian citizens can be appointed to the top security posts in airlines. The Bureau of Civil Aviation Security (BCAS) last week finally cleared the air on the nationality aspect in airline security posts which till now was ridden with ambiguity.

Jet Airways had appointed Steve Ramiah, a Singaporean national as its vice-president, security, a month ago as the country did not clearly dictate the terms in such appointments.

"Only an Indian citizen shall be appointed as chief security officer (CSO) of any Indian air carrier and such CSO would directly report to head of the airlines concerned in all matters of security,'' said the order issued by M Malaviya, addl commissioner of security , BCAS, on September 24. The order was effected by Jet Airways' decision taken in the last week of August to have a foreigner as its vice-president, security. "Since Ramiah is a Singaporean national, the airline mentioned in its offer letter that his appointment would stand terminated if the Indian government does not approve of his employment with an Indian carrier,'' said a source.

The decision on nationality was taken in a high-level meeting called by BCAS on September 11, which was attended by representatives of IB, RAW, home ministry, civil aviation ministry and airlines. It was unanimously decided that top security posts should only go to Indian nationals. Globally, each country has its own rule on this matter, with some airlines in the Middle East having foreigners in key security posts, while other airlines, like those in the US reserve the post only for its citizens.

The second part of the order-that of CSO reporting only to the head of airline-was already a security norm in India, but as quite a few airlines in India were violating it, the BCAS reiterated the term in its recent circular. In fact, BCAS officials brought up the matter in the said meeting as well, only to find the representatives of Kingfisher Airlines and IndiGo confess that their top security official does not report to the head of the airline. Jet Airways, too, in thw May 8, 2008, offer letter made to Steve Ramiah for the post of vice-president, security, asked him to report to its chief commercial officer.

"To foolproof security, it is imperative to have an airline's CSO report to the head of the airline and not the chief commercial officer as the latter would only have commercial interests as top priority,'' said a source. "Both Kingfisher Airlines and Indigo airlines were directed that this anomaly should be corrected with immediate effect and a report to this effect should be submitted to BCAS within a period of 15 days,'' said the minutes of the BCAS meeting.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Sep 2008 16:22

Madurai airport runway extended & ILS installed

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 01 Oct 2008 23:45

Tata buys one-third stake in Italian aircraft company Piaggio Aero.

Tata Ltd. has acquired a one-third stake in Piaggio Aero Industries SpA, the Italian aircraft company said on Wednesday.
Financial details were not released. The move makes Tata one of the main shareholders alongside the Ferrari and Di Mase families and Abu Dhabi's Mubadala Development Co.

The Tata investment consists of purchasing existing shares and a new capital subscription, Piaggio Aero said in a statement.Tata will have three of the nine seats on the board, and one of the three seats on the management committee.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Oct 2008 08:39

Great!.Air Parasite is expected to make a whopping Rs 3000 crore loss this year, close to 50% of the losses of the industry in India (with a less than 50% market share of course).. The govt of course is planning a Rs 1500 crore infusion ie. close to Rs 15 for every man, woman and child in this country.

Pray, what does the poor jhuggi-jhopdi wallah , whose only connection with an airplane is to watch one flying over his slum have , have to do with Air Parsite. What does he get in putting Rs 15 into air parasite in return .. atleast a cup of chai ?

For how long do the people of this country have to keep feeding these absolute vermins ? I hope atleast some political party puts it in it's manifesto to shut down these vermins along with AAI and send them home.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 06 Oct 2008 17:13

Crores and crores to blood sucking parasites..it happens in other ways too...PSUs now forced to park funds with state-run banks so that the clerk behind the counter at your friendly-neighborhood public sector bank can scowl at you even more and not attend to you until days cricket scrores, serials etc. are discussed and over with.

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 061505.htm

What do you expect with a regime that has absolutely no issues being a slave of Stalinist mass murderer worshippers and chinese puppets..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Oct 2008 11:03

I went to SBI-M, ICICI and HDFC recently for various reasons.

SBI-M : truly everyone was scowling and the general demeanour was "why are you
here, get out!". do they have a training school on scowling and generally
unhelpful body language run at public expense?

ICICI : three people were clueless what I wanted from my demat a/c(a
freaking balance stmt). finally the expert says it cannot be done at
their branch and sends off to another

HDFC: not as much crowds, the staff seemed better trained and having
some clue about the proceedings. but their PYT types are the most
unhelpful and not smiling unlike ICICI. better catch a guy if you go there.

meantime JET and KF have been holding summit meetings in Mumbai
and announced the first steps to a eventual merger.

KF might also stop its US service soon, following JET.

so its back to thai, malay, SIA for the US SFO/LAX types and into
the tender arms of LUft, BA, KLM and AirIndia for BOS/EWR/JFK

the Chakra has come full circle.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 14 Oct 2008 19:46

Following their meeting for getting better Operational benefits, Jet and Kingfisher may launch fewer flights but to more US destinations under Code share. With oil prices coming down and expected to go down further i hope this happens soon, i do not want to face the BA/Luft and Air parasite aunties when i travel.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 14 Oct 2008 23:40

so its back to thai, malay, SIA for the US SFO/LAX types and into
the tender arms of LUft, BA, KLM and AirIndia for BOS/EWR/JFK

No No...it is Qatar, Gulf, Emirates etc. for India trips. They have the best connectivity, the cheapest deals ( you can get a r/t to COK from as far south as DC for $1100 in the lean Jan - Mar season). Besides, they are sitting on oil

reserves. It is back to modern day dhow services.

Coming to think of it I have never in the last 20 yrs got any deal to South or east India from either the west or east coast of US for less than $1300. So things are looking up if you can deal with flying through the middle east.

Sam CS · Post by **Sam CS** » 15 Oct 2008 03:56

Bade wrote:
so its back to thai, malay, SIA for the US SFO/LAX types and into
the tender arms of LUft, BA, KLM and AirIndia for BOS/EWR/JFK
No No...it is Qatar, Gulf, Emirates etc. for India trips. They have the best connectivity, the cheapest deals ( you can get a r/t to COK from as far south as DC for $1100 in the lean Jan - Mar season). Besides, they are sitting on oil reserves. It is back to modern day dhow services.

AoA to that one. I have made most of my trips exclusively on SQ, even when MH has been slightly cheaper (by $100 or so) - ignoring all scowls of SHQ. When Emirates start flying LAX, they'll likely undercut SQ by a huge margin, and I'll run out of excuses.

I was really rooting for Jet. Brussels airport screwed them, and they screwed themselves up a lot too. It is not really the economy that did them in. Flying both EWR and JFK was mistake number one. Biting the Lizard's offer of SFO through Shanghai during graveyard shift was the last straw. They didn't give a chance to SFO, LAX, ORD, DFW, and IAH at all from Brussels.

Mallya saab never had a chance to succeed to begin with.

One would hope the two airlines would choose a good European hub and cover as many India to North America routes as possible through this hub.

vina · Post by **vina** » 15 Oct 2008 14:11

Hmm. Private airlines sucked dry by ridiculous taxes and Jet lays off some 850 odd kids who are on probation , who were looking forward to life. While the blood sucking parasites who for 40 years sucked up passenger, tax payer and competitors monies are sitting pretty and fat and chuckling.

When was the last time you heard of layoffs in IA and AI ever ? . Why should the tax payer pay to keep those parasites in their jobs? The just gave us a check for Rs 3000 crore as losses.. (close to Rs 30 for every man woman and child in this country) and now the govt wants to put in Rs 1500 to Rs 2000 crore more into those parasites?

Someone somewhere should file a PIL on that. I hope the laid off folks file that and ask the govt to give them same lifelong protection and job guarantees as IA and AI or compensation in lieu of that . Let the Civil Aviation ministry pay for that. Why should they pay on the IA and AI fat cats. Sure why not ?. Atleast these kids were working , unlike the parasites.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Oct 2008 21:10

the parasites have also lost all eastern and western markets. Emirates has 150 flights a week from India now and Luft & BA increased their flights by 3 times. SIA/Thai/cathay/malay/asiana control the US west coast routes.

so instead of dilli, the regional hubs are dubai, changi, kuala lumper, bkk .... relatively tiny but
smarter countries.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 08:17

Jet has let go another 1050 people yesterday including ground based.

Shivani · Post by **Shivani** » 16 Oct 2008 11:33

Many reasons are being thrown about to explain the perilous condition of 9W and IT. But no one mentions the true reason why the private carriers are suffering: Air India.

Air India is unaffected by high oil costs. They just make losses and steal from us taxpayers to pay the bills. The private operators do not have this luxury so they suffer.
When the time comes to order new aircrafts, the private operators need to finance their purchase and have to be profitable to do so. Not Air India. They once again steal from the tax payers and order 68 planes from Boeing.

Absolved from such foreign notions like "profit", Air India is free to set the floor on ticket prices, which also goes on to hide the high costs of operations in India courtesy fuel taxes et al.

Many countries have such a thing as competetion commission that ensures that all players operate on equal footing, and that the consumer interests are not compromised. Not so in India.

This country gives you a new reason to hate it every day.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 11:44

close to $1b dollars is being stolen by these buggers every year on one pretext or another.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2008 11:48

Link

AI mulls leave without pay to 15,000 employees
Amitabha Roy Chowdhury

October 16, 2008 11:51 IST
Facing the heat of the financial crisis that has hit the aviation sector, state-owned Air India on Thursday said it is considering a plan to give 3-5 years leave without pay to about 15,000 of its staff.

"We are planning to offer leave without pay for three to five years. We can consider it for about 15,000 employees," Air India CMD Raghu Menon told PTI.

He, however, said those who take up the offer to go on leave would be taken back if they desire so at the same seniority and last drawn pay.

Interesting way to cut the flab...
However,expect all hell(and lal-jhandas) to break loose..

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 16 Oct 2008 11:56

I just wonder where all those Jet's Pearls will go

. If I had my co in India.......only if I had if I could recruit some.......only if. I am ready for desh-sheva like never before.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 16 Oct 2008 12:02

Naa, all the crown jewels will be kept close to the family jewels of the respective managers. It will be those ayesha's who are 'un-co-operative' and with attitude problem who will be given the boot.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 12:14

I doubt any other airline in world can let 15000 people walk out and still function.

just shows the density of useless termites in the colony.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 16 Oct 2008 12:59

CITU says Jet's planes should not be allowed to fly if they don't withdraw the layoff.

Hmm, people in red lungi-shirt, carrying red flags, gheraoing the planes on the tarmac of Cochin AP!! That would be nice!!!

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 16 Oct 2008 14:11

Shivani wrote:Many reasons are being thrown about to explain the perilous condition of 9W and IT. But no one mentions the true reason why the private carriers are suffering: Air India.

Air India is unaffected by high oil costs. They just make losses and steal from us taxpayers to pay the bills. The private operators do not have this luxury so they suffer.
When the time comes to order new aircrafts, the private operators need to finance their purchase and have to be profitable to do so. Not Air India. They once again steal from the tax payers and order 68 planes from Boeing.

Absolved from such foreign notions like "profit", Air India is free to set the floor on ticket prices, which also goes on to hide the high costs of operations in India courtesy fuel taxes et al.

Many countries have such a thing as competetion commission that ensures that all players operate on equal footing, and that the consumer interests are not compromised. Not so in India.

This country gives you a new reason to hate it every day.

It is not so easy. AI is subject to a lot of political manuplation. They can't even change the cabin staff, are forced to fly uneconomic routes and have a lot of management constraints.

The private sector is loosing money, because of over investment and capacity. Hopefully consilidation will bring down the losses.

I feel the best thing would be if AI was privatised and was restructured.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Oct 2008 14:21

When they cant even change the cabin staff without hue and cry , you expect them to be privatized? Look what happened when BSNL wanted to go public.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Oct 2008 18:23

We will soon see passengers carrying their own luggage to the aircraft and flapping their wings through the windows for flight! The cruelty and sheer heartlessness of the capitalist system is seen with this one incident.If Mallya wants to jet across the globe like its richest playboy,by all means let him do it but not at the taxpayers expense (with the huge proposed aviation bailout)! Who asked him to place orders for 50 aircraft at the 2006 Paris air show,that he can't afford and has already offloaded two new A-340 aircraft to another airline? I suppose he needs money to pay for his new yacht,fund his Formula-1 "Farce-One" team and continue to enjoy the "good times" at our expense.Similarly there was no need for Goyal to buy Sahara and lord it over the other airlines.Had he not been so greedy,Sahara would've dived and kept Jet in the black.At least Mallya has his booze to use as fuel,Goyal has nothing to fall back upon!

My advice to these worthy aviation heroes,stop flights on useless routes,strip the aircraft of their seats and lease them to the IAF (also use as cargo carriers) who are short of transport aircraft and need replacements for their AN-32s,some to be upgraded with new engines.They'll save more money that way then by firing the lowest level of staff in this shameful manner.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 16 Oct 2008 18:40

It may now be difficult to obtain the bailout, what with these highly publicized layoffs. Politicians of all hues will object to it or demand that there be no more layoffs in return for giving them this money. After all political brownie points have to be earned. This is the season for politicking with assembly elections in 5 states and general elections in 6 months time. This will not work to Jet or Kingfisher's advantage.

And yes, as a previous poster pointed out the problems of Jet and KF are because of over capacity. I mean, what were they thinking? Every Tom, Dick and Harry knew that an economic slowdown was imminent. Soros had been saying so since January 2006. Yet the buggers went in for expansions and acquisitions. The only people laughing now are Subroto Roy and Gopinath, who are sitting on loads of cash after having sold it at over-inflated prices.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 19:28

slots on the airbus/boeing production lines are hard to get at short notice. even if
chance of india slowing down was there, they would have calculated the slots
could be sold to others.

nobody would have expected a global meltdown of this nature, else why are people
moaning and drinking single malts over what % their portfolios are down

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 16 Oct 2008 20:36

A lot of IA/AI losses are because they have to operate on unprofitable routes, e.g. to most destinations in the NE, because of political and national requirements. Pvt. airlines are not required to do so, yet they are at a loss. If Pvt. airlines were bound by law to fly to these destinations then they would have been bankrupt much earlier. All of these points will be brought up now when they are going to beg for the 3000 crores. I see a slim chance of these guys getting anything. They are some real issues, like mismanagement and overcapacity and some highlighted ones now like the layoffs. All in all a difficult task for Jet/KF.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 21:14

there are not political but national reqs to provide air routes and subsidies to the NE, since Dilli has done
such a stellar job of road and rail connectivity since 1947. nothing has come to NE without some agitation
and deaths.a rail journey from tripura to kolkata would be a gruelling 48 hrs vs 45 min in a plane.

the pvt carriers are also obliged to service these routes just like IA.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Oct 2008 21:47

a rail journey from tripura to kolkata would be a gruelling 48 hrs vs 45 min in a plane.

Do we have rail in Tripura? Was under the impression that Assam is the eastern-most rail-head...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Oct 2008 22:08

see http://www.nfrailway.org/nfr_map/lumdingDIV.jpg

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 16 Oct 2008 23:06

So when the good times have ended the snotty Jet Air stewards go running to MNS for morchas. I do have a personal grudge against the Mumbai Jet Air crowd and found their service only a shade better than the AI equivalents.

Also me thinks, Jet Air's strategy of ignoring the Gulf sector to build on has bitten them hard. No sympathy from me.

SBajwa · Post by **SBajwa** » 16 Oct 2008 23:36

I don't understand what you guys are talking about Air India being the good in business class. It is nowhere near the world class.

The seats, entertainment and food is on par or below than others.

While 100% for sure your luggage will be lost or gone to Bombay (when you are landing in Delhi)., it happened with me and my parents 3 times in a row( from 1998 - 2003). Since then we are not flying Air india anymore (even if offered free of cost).

Good thing about my luggage lost, while I was waiting for it in Delhi was that I acquired visa for naPakistan by bribing them Rs5000 for each visa (at least something to do while these bozos ship my luggage from Bombay) and then later crossed the Wagah Border to visit Nankana Sahib, Lahore, Aimnabad(Gujranwala).

These Air India Bozos don't understand that we only get 2-3 weeks off in a whole year and instead of going off to other places in the whole wide world we pick our Desh so that we can go visit our family and friends and they need to at least be little bit more careful.

Now talking about Delhi Airport. I visited last year and this year again. Last year at 11:50 about 3-4 airlines landed at the same time. Airport only had one luggage baggage conveyor belt for all airlines from Dubai, Singapore, Canada to USA. Then they just took all the luggage off from the belt and stashed it all along the walls. I was able to locate and find my one bag by 5:00 Am. This year Delhi airport was little better as KLM airlines got a whole baggage conveyor belt to themselves., it took me only 1 hour to get out of the airport.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Oct 2008 13:27

Seems that some of the folks were getting paid a cool salary of 35K. One was actually complaining about how she has to postpone a trip to Dubai for her parents. Another PYT was complaining about how to make a payment on the new LCD TV.

Am I supposed to feel sorry for them ??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Oct 2008 15:54

and they get to stay in 5* hotels as part of outstation overnights on work
and party hard with fellow crew, expats, local studs in the organic discos
and restaurants therein

I too would like to be a normal human sometimes and not write 500 lines
of code a day - everyday

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 17 Oct 2008 17:11

I don't get it. Southwest airlines - that darling of B-school case writers - announces a loss for the first time in 17 yrs exactly when oil prices 9and ATF ones too, I presume) actually *halve* from their July peaks and when the peak travel season (thanksgiving and xmas) is just round the corner?!? What gives?

Lemme know if desi air ticket prices in any way reflect the 'correction' in crude prices recently....

bart · Post by **bart** » 17 Oct 2008 18:26

Well, there are a lot less people flying at the drop of the hat or able to afford vacations. People have to think out their expenditure carefully these days. And companies have cut business travel drastically as well.

Indian ticket prices wont reflect the correction in crude prices since the Indian fuel prices themselves have not reduced, because the PSU oil companies say that the crude price is not still low enough for them to make a profit. And even after it does, they will try to re-coup some of the losses they have made before passing the benefit on to the customer. And much of the reduction in crude prices have been offset by the falling value of the rupee.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 17 Oct 2008 19:33

In any other Country (save for a Banana Republic or a Communist Wasteland) such a person should be thrown in Jail.

Link

Won't allow Jet to cut staff wages: Shiv Sena
Press Trust of India
Mumbai, October 17, 2008

Jet Airways reinstates all employees Claiming credit for Jet Airways' decision to take back all sacked employees, Shiv Sena warned the private airline would face its wrath if it dared to reduce salaries of permanent staff "even by one rupee".

"Jet should know that it is dealing with Shiv Sena. (Chairman) Naresh Goyal is saying he was not aware about the decision to sack the employees. If this is true, those responsible for the decision should be kicked out," party Executive President Uddhav Thackeray said.

There was no need for enacting this "farce" in the name of recession, he added.

The Sena will ensure that Jet pays Diwali bonus and ex-gratia to its employees, Uddhav said.

Henceforth, Jet or any other company management should desist from indulging in such "antics", the Sena leader said.

What kind of naked goondagardi is this? How can this thug get away with openly threatening a CEO like this?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 19 Oct 2008 02:06

The Jet layoff was a big drama. It seems that the private airlines were asked to pay the money incurred towards aviation fuel. None of them want to pay as they have no margins. Murli Deora asked them to pay up. As part of the game Jet announced a open layoff. In India no one announces layoffs openly as they all what happens. Sensing the situation, GOI has quietly provided the extension of payments.

One stupid thing about this government is they are continuing with massive cross subsidization of fuel. The aviation fuel is also highly taxed and overall very expensive. Everything related to Civil Aviation is highly taxed. If the airlines increase the price no one will travel which makes most of the airlines bankcorrupt. All in all the government is not allowing the Civil Aviation to grow.