Commonwealth Games-New Delhi 2010

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 23 Sep 2010 00:26

ramana wrote:vijayk, where have you been arguing this? In which thread?

I did not mean BRF. I have proposing this theory with friends. Every one is so enamored of Rahul Baba's projection by NDTV/CNN-IBN or print media that they look at me with such a sympathetic look on their faces "You are out of your mind or Rahul is very nice and doing good things na... We need youth in politics na... Is he not going to some untouchable house na... Why are you saying such bad things about this little cute boy?"

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 23 Sep 2010 01:11

chetak wrote: Should they not declare Delhi as a disturbed area?

Heard a viewer comment on TV:
They should hand over the CWG to National Disaster Management Authority. NDMA has the mandate to deal with this.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 01:22

RamaY wrote:
Bade wrote:This thread displays the greatest whine fest on BR. Seriously, folks when aam aadmi in most Indian cities has to deal with poor infra and hygiene on a daily basis, why did you guys have such high expectations for CWG.
Bade-saab,

There are two options.

1. India doesn't venture into this type of events unless all its citizens achieve the expected living/wealth standards. That means no international events unless India achieves 1st Rank in HDI and a GINI score of 1. Unfortunately one cannot achieve wealth/progress/recognition without interacting the world community.

2. India tries to achieve internal progress while simultaneously hosting CWG type international events. The reality appears to be this.

If not a GINI score of 1, I would be happy if such events are held when the score is tending rapidly towards a value of 1. This would definitely save the H&D of at least BR postors.

Incompetence of the managers and executors selected for the job is a big part of this fiasco. The buck stops at Kalmadi and Sheila Dixit's door, doesn't it ? I do not know how any PM can be held responsible for this.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 01:32

PM of India

The Prime Minister of India (Hindi: प्रधान मंत्री) is the chief of government of the Republic of India, and head of the Council of Ministers, appointed by the President to assist the latter in the administration of the affairs of the executive in India. The Prime Minister is responsible for bringing proposal of legislation. The Prime Minister is appointed by the President, and recognized as leader of the majority party in the two Houses of the Parliament of India.The Prime Minister of India is the head of the executive branch as the President's position is ceremonial and it is the Prime Minister who is the head of the executive

Let us assume you are right. Then why isn't MMS releasing his incompetent colleagues?

Could you please specify the areas that (in your opinion) MMS should be responsible for? We will take it from there.

P.S: Please check my first post on this topic. I clearly mentioned that no one should blame MMS for this issue (and no other issue)

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 01:54

^^^ Sorry, what relevance does this question have to CWG ?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 02:10

That is a good one Bade-ji.

First you claim that MMS has nothing to do with CWG. I give you the benefit of doubt, and ask what should MMS be responsible for. Now you say I am OT. Nice try.

This is the general non-sense we see across the board. MMS doesn't claim any responsibility; neither to the party's actions nor to the govt deeds. So no one can blame him

All he does is losing sleep, once in a while.

If a CEO/Manager is responsible for the failure of the project (in your own words), what should MMS be responsible for; A simple question you fail to answer.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 23 Sep 2010 02:12

Well, in the end nothing will happen. World will scream, Babooze will clam up, netas will claim it is conspeeracy by opposition/ISI/CIA/MI6/Jinns to defame them, SDREs will shrug and say "we are like this onlee" and life will go on...

The current happenings bring to my mind what my grandfather told me many many years ago. He used to gather in the evenings with a lot of GoI babooze (retired and serving) in our neighborhood and he told me that the most common boast amongst them was not how fast they could move a file or resolve an issue efficiently but rather how long they could hold onto a file and delay the resolution of any issue. Sadly these are are IAS/IFS babooze and the cream of the crop in terms of education and learning (with quite a few having MS/Pee-chaddi from massa/uk-stan).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Sep 2010 03:34

Two headlines:

One being told about the tiles falling in JNU stadium:

False ceiling collapse normal

and
On the sinking feeling with more revelations on CWG infrastructure:

No pride in this shame

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 23 Sep 2010 03:36

http://dailycaller.com/2010/09/22/2-tea ... -in-india/

time, it is backfiring. Instead of showing the world that it is a modern, global power, India is being castigated for its lack of preparation.With barely a week to go before the games begin, frantic last-minute preparations are verging on chaos, international sports officials are furious and the games have become an international embarrassment that could threaten plans for major sporting events in other developing nations.Scotland and Canada said Wednesday they would delay their departures to New Delhi because of the unfinished athletes’ village. Meanwhile, an official with the New Zealand swimming team said international swimming federations could quickly stage an alternative meet if the games were canceled.
The Times of India summed it up with a front-page headline: “C’wealth Games India’s Shame.”
“Irretrievable damage has been done to the country’s reputation,” said Norris Pritam, an Indian journalist who has covered many Olympics and Asian Games. “India can still pull it off, but I was more hopeful a few weeks ago.”Commonwealth Games Federation President Mike Fennell headed to New Delhi, seeking emergency talks with the prime minister to discuss the situation, the games’ chief executive, Mike Hooper, said Wednesday.
Andrew Foster, head of Commonwealth Games England, said Wednesday “the next 24 to 48 hours is the critical time” to determine if the standards of the athletes’ village can be raised.
So far, four athletes — including three world champions — have said they won’t attend because of health or safety concerns.Indian government officials insisted they would prove the critics wrong.Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna, in New York for the U.N. General Assembly, told the BBC that the games will be “one of the most successful that the Commonwealth has undertaken.” He blamed “the prolonged monsoon” for the problems

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 23 Sep 2010 03:48

Good thing is

1) We do not need "spontaneous Tibetan uprising" type charades by gora-dom to tarnish our image. We are doing it ourselves and hence in total control

Gora-dom's "Embedded Journo" industry must be gasping for air at us snatching away the vital "disaster manufacturing segment" from them.

2) Less chance for our Olympic bid and putting more money into the hands of autocratic, robber-baron run European led sporting bodies with Three-four letter acronyms.

I fervently hope that the incredibly invasive and thoroughly useless (for 400% of world) Formula1 organization's Delhi Grand Prix gets struck off the circuit from next year, because of rain filled pot-holes, blackmarket spare parts and a stray dog on the track causing a mega pile up of expensive goras. Inshallah, that infamous Abu Ghraib Pyramid needs an answer in the form of well-heeled goras unceremoniously stacked five high....

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 04:09

RamaY wrote:That is a good one Bade-ji.

First you claim that MMS has nothing to do with CWG. I give you the benefit of doubt, and ask what should MMS be responsible for. Now you say I am OT. Nice try.

This is the general non-sense we see across the board. MMS doesn't claim any responsibility; neither to the party's actions nor to the govt deeds. So no one can blame him All he does is losing sleep, once in a while.

If a CEO/Manager is responsible for the failure of the project (in your own words), what should MMS be responsible for; A simple question you fail to answer.

I think you are the one going overboard with this argument. Surely, the PM cannot be held responsible personally for everything that goes on, from the toilet habits of his fellow countrymen and stray animals. I still do not understand why this is a political issue. There are many more important things a PM can be and should be held responsible for. Why do you insist that I should answer you in this thread about them ?

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Sep 2010 04:57

A mistake is a mistake and should be called out as such. Esp, if its a blunder and not merely a mistake only.

This hiding behind "India's prestige and image" thing is a non-argument.

Hosting such games at tremendous cost (INR 35 kilo crore!) for what or who exactly? I'd rather the money have been used to fund the narmada jet engine or at least ploughed back into the kaveri.

Yup, I agree that partisangiri is a self-goal and all that. Yet, doesn't mean that if and when particular political parties are to blame, we bury their role in a conspiracy of silence.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:04

^^^ Gee, with all the threads in Strategy forum, you still need to ask, isn't is obvious.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:08

Hari Seldon wrote:A mistake is a mistake and should be called out as such. Esp, if its a blunder and not merely a mistake only.

This hiding behind "India's prestige and image" thing is a non-argument.

Hosting such games at tremendous cost (INR 35 kilo crore!) for what or who exactly? I'd rather the money have been used to fund the narmada jet engine or at least ploughed back into the kaveri.

Yup, I agree that partisangiri is a self-goal and all that. Yet, doesn't mean that if and when particular political parties are to blame, we bury their role in a conspiracy of silence.

Who says bury and not question. But it has to be done after the games. I wholly agree with you that spending all those crores in building sports infra in places other than Delhi would be money well spent instead of on CWG. It is too late now, the decision to bid was done many years ago ,and it has so far been less than satisfactory in execution, and it has left a bad taste. No one is disputing all that. But, any colored discussion on it here does not achieve much else other than many self-goals at this point.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:15

The bridge collapse is a very serious issue and a proper probe of that will be the key to opening up all the looting and mismanagement that has gone behind the scenes. This has to be seen not in isolation. Even there were serious compromises in safety with the Delhi metro construction. There are definitely some common players here very likely. Add to that the Delhi Airport flooding issues and other minor construction related events not even reported which could compromise safety.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:17

Ajatshatru wrote:
Gee, with all the threads in Strategy forum, you still need to ask, isn't is obvious.
And yet you continue to unsuccessfully defend the undefendable on this thread?

??

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:36

The quality of construction in general back in India even in the private sector (talking of residential sector) is not excellent from personal experience, since lots of corners are cut routinely. With public money it only gets worse.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 05:40

Bade wrote: I think you are the one going overboard with this argument. Surely, the PM cannot be held responsible personally for everything that goes on, from the toilet habits of his fellow countrymen and stray animals. I still do not understand why this is a political issue. There are many more important things a PM can be and should be held responsible for. Why do you insist that I should answer you in this thread about them ?

All I am asking is what they are. If CWG is not part of your list, this will be my last post in this thread will carry my whine-fest to the relevant thread.

P.S: There are quite a few intellectuals on this forum who thought toilet habits of his fellow countrymen and stray animals are part of GOI's responsibilities. You may have to stand alone against those giants, so be prepared!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:42

^^^

here is a prominent face associated with CWG. I am sure the buck stops here. I did not see any link to anyone else on that page.
http://www.cwgdelhi2010.org/?q=node/1614

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 05:44

Hari Seldon wrote: Yup, I agree that partisangiri is a self-goal and all that. Yet, doesn't mean that if and when particular political parties are to blame, we bury their role in a conspiracy of silence.

HS-ji

Only the people who are trying to defend the indefensible are bringing the partisangiri into the discussion. A poster is not supporting BJP when he criticizes INC and vice versa; similarly defending Hindu India doesn't automatically translate religious chauvinism. This is the psy-ops people have carefully created in India.

This way our forum and society will fast forward into Pakiness.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 05:46

Ajatshatru wrote: Is it not the job of the bas&$£&* who were stuffing their pockets with loot earlier (Kalmadi & Co.) to keep India's prestige and image in mind when they were doing so but now with bridges and roofs falling all over the place, the onus is cleverly being shifted, by the likes of Sheila Dixit, on mango Indians as well as the Indian media to maintain India's prestige and image etc. by not talking or highlighting these issues. Amazing....

While the "financial" corruption is a definite issue, the real threat to Indian Interests is the "Intellectual Corruption" that justifies, supports and encourages that financial corruption.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 05:48

Bade wrote:^^^ here is a prominent face associated with CWG. I am sure the buck stops here. I did not see any link to anyone else on that page.
http://www.cwgdelhi2010.org/?q=node/1614

on what basis? Who hired him and on what basis?

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 05:55

Why the hurry to go higher than him right now ? Please do go after everyone, but it has to work from the bottom up isn't it. If and when the Games 'fail' it has not yet, then it is open season and then I have no issues with your line of argument.

You may have to stand alone against those giants, so be prepared!

Hope that is not a threat

and made in jest. It can be read many ways after all the pincer attacks.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 05:58

Bade-ji,

That was just an advise from a friend. I believe that all of us have Indian Interests at heart. The difference of opinion is on how to achieve that goal. So never worry about pincer attacks from me.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 23 Sep 2010 06:08

I do not bring any agenda to this forum, and would like to keep it that way. I care too hoots whose H&D is bruised by such fiasco so I am not as sensitive to the end result. But, I did feel that in one of the post a line was crossed so it was reported. No harm intended either by that. Just did not like a probe to hidden agendas on my position/take on this, when there was none.

My last post on this.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 23 Sep 2010 06:17

RamaY wrote:While the "financial" corruption is a definite issue, the real threat to Indian Interests is the "Intellectual Corruption" that justifies, supports and encourages that financial corruption.

I wonder what the punishment is for corruption in India, and what the punishment is for not meeting KPIs. In China, the feeling is you can be as corrupt as you like(obviously within reason, whatever that means), but you have to meet your KPIs. If you don't meet KPIs, they will come down on you for corruption.

What's it like for India?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 06:21

TM-ji

I think you should stay out of this. This is a friendly advise.

There is no punishment for not meeting KPIs in India.

You can refer the punishments for corrupt individuals in IPC. There is enough legal protection for the accused.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 23 Sep 2010 06:24

RamaY wrote:TM-ji

I think you should stay out of this. This is a friendly advise.

Why is this? I'm seriously curious. Please tell.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 06:26

Because, you are trying to learn Indian thought process and this is not the right thread if your quest is genuine.

I think you have genuine interest in India and I would like you to get a true understanding of India.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 23 Sep 2010 06:30

RamaY wrote:Because, you are trying to learn Indian thought process and this is not the right thread if your quest is genuine.

I think you have genuine interest in India and I would like you to get a true understanding of India.

Thanks. But this just gets me more and more curious. Why is this thread not a true reflection of India? Are you not Indians discussion current Indian events? I would love to have a deeper understanding of corruption in India, as compared to corruption in China.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 06:40

This thread is about an aberration that India had to live thru due to its past karma (remember the Dalai-Lama thread?) that resulted in external invasions and colonialism.

Corruption in India (I dont know much about PRC) stems from it's misunderstanding and rejection of its values. India has a great treasure that can save not only India but the whole world if it can be understood for what it is and accepted.

People who grew up in [sic] independent India have to achieve liberty in their minds to see this.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 23 Sep 2010 07:28

RamaY wrote: This thread is about an aberration that India had to live thru due to its past karma (remember the Dalai-Lama thread?) that resulted in external invasions and colonialism.

My pet hate is when people use Karma/fate/destiny (I know they are not the same thing) to justify/explain anything. But that's just me.

RamaY wrote: Corruption in India (I dont know much about PRC) stems from it's misunderstanding and rejection of its values. India has a great treasure that can save not only India but the whole world if it can be understood for what it is and accepted.

I'm curious to know what this is.

But we're derailing the thread, so I'll take your advice and butt out. But if you want to take this conversation else where, I'll be more then happy.

/On a on topic note: The CWG hasn't failed yet. I didn't think the soccer world cup in South African was gonna be as good as it was. The CWG failing or not is not up to the Indians, it's up to the competitors, watchers and their spirit.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 23 Sep 2010 07:42

A successful CWG wouldn't change the underlying aberration. That is short-sightedness.

Scientific equivalent of Karma is "consequence", if that makes sense to you.

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 23 Sep 2010 07:47

RamaY wrote:Scientific equivalent of Karma is "consequence", if that makes sense to you.

Hate to be OT, but there is also the saying in science, that correlation does not imply causation. The CWG mess does not even correlate to any particular event India did wrong in the past, to suggest a causation is...unscientific.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 23 Sep 2010 07:50

Why we must go to the Games

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 23 Sep 2010 08:05

Did these contractors use materials imported from China?

BTW, some international coverage:
India's Disastrous Sporting Event Is A Big Red Flag About Its Economy

Check Out The Worst-Planned International Sports Event Ever

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 23 Sep 2010 08:31

We hosted the 1982 Asian games which were a grand success when the Indian economy was much smaller.

Now we are a USD 1 trillion economy and growing and the "games have not even begun" [pun intended].

When public figures start defending the indefensible [different standards of cleanliness comment] and people start tacitly or otherwise through their inaction tolerate or accept these state of affairs they are giving up their right to good governance (CWG, Swiss bank accounts are a good start).

There is a huge tolerance among the Indian public for corruption in public life. When transformation in democracies does not happen through governance it happens through public activism at a scale where the tipping point must be reached.That or an exceptional leader.

Can't see the outrage on the street which is what should be happening if we have any hope of reforming our elected polity.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 23 Sep 2010 08:32

The RIT act must bring out accountability list, and get this correction act begun soon before we become laughing stocks. All responsible government agencies must be listed, and taken to task. Public protest must begin.

Politicians should come out open on the games, and organizers should shut up on saying things like our hygiene is different from yours/theirs. He should quit or sacked by now for saying that.

Wish we have many E. Sreedharan clones for this. It is still not too late to correct.

Let a new revolution begin for hygiene, health and wealth while corruption is routed out. People have to revolt and gov make the necessary changes done so that this does not happen. Checks and balances and distribution of power is important. Standards specified must be strictly executed per design and certified.

People must listen to such events and participate proactively to prevent such things happening in the future.

It is not bad to learn from mistakes/sins. [including corruption]. Some heads must go behind bars for all these.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 23 Sep 2010 08:37

rahulm wrote:Can't see the outrage on the street which is what should be happening if we have any hope of reforming our elected polity.

Average public who may be willing to go to street for protest do not care about this game. It is the affluent class who is concerned about India's international image. But the best they would do is to become internet warriors and not street fighters.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 23 Sep 2010 08:54

Maybe the country doesn't need New Delhi. Its irrelevant.