Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): May 30, 2011

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:08

“We will undertake such an operation when it is in our national interest militarily,” the general said, describing North Waziristan as “calm and peaceful as it was weeks ago”

so khan is ordering "chhoooo", dog is only barking. Khan gives ultimatum, dog stuffs its tail behind. Whats khan gonna say? July is just 2 months away!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2011 21:15

archan wrote: That begs the question. We have no reason to believe that SSS was not a Allah fearing, good Muslim. Killing a good Muslim is a huge crime in Islam. So the ISI officers who killed him committed blasphemy? I just wonder how does a common religious Pakistani reconcile with these issues?

Archan - there was a time when I used to believe that Pakis were being serious about Islam. I believe I was wrong. They are bullshitting. They use "islam" when it is convenient and shove a rod up Allah's ass if that is more convenient. Check that mullah sex video. If I tell an erotic story or describe an erotic scene and pepper my talk with references to Allah willing all the sex - you get Pakistani Islam. Maybe all Islam is like that I don't know. Pakistanis are certainly using Islam this way.

The mango Abdul knows it is wrong and is in a state of continuous cognitive dissonance. but there is nothing he can do. The leaders of Pakistan have lost control. In Pakistan you can use Islam any which way you like and even Allah won't interfere. If there was one way to ensure that the entire world is ROTFL about Islam and going hack thoo - it is simply to watch what is done in the name of Islam in the pious Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Ten years ago I never dreamed that it would come to this.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:15

So how would SSS have been kidnapped by the ISI?

Exactly like the ISI goons on bikes tried to flag down Raymond Davis. RD paid them back in their own currency.

SSS couldn't.

Rehman Malik wanting journalists to carry guns is trying to suggest that they could defend themselves just like RD did. Hope Rehman Malik will also impart RD level of training to the Journalists so that they can 'effectively' defend themselves against their kidnappers.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 01 Jun 2011 21:17

SSS knows that what he is writing has lot of dangers. He is either self motivated or helped by the insiders to write the stuff. He is in a way an insider. He has the confidence of those insiders regarding safety to his life. Otherwise it is extremely foolish of him to think he will survive in the country that he knows pretty well and also he is sure of how the systems work there.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 01 Jun 2011 21:18

Gagan wrote:By the time they reached there, the police had already buried the body!!! And they had taken pictures of the body that showed the injuries.I won't buy the argument that the police are staunch islamists and will bury a dead man before the sun is down in each and every case. Poor guy that SSS.

Hey, lets see if the pure complain about the proper Islamic burial that SSS did not receive or that (akin to OBL's mid-sea over the side disposal) show us the body.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 01 Jun 2011 21:20

ramana wrote:Rajaram,
I think the PNS Mehran is related to some clown jewels. S^3 got killed as he figured it out. Hajam Sethi is trying to protect the ISI goons.

TSP involved with terrorists in not earth shattering new news.

I think where we are getting fogged is the traditional role of nooks to attack land targets. The fact that the PRC and TSP are working on integrating something on an anti-submarine patrol aircraft (Onion) means its related to something they both see as a threat. The Indian second strike option is the only thing that would attract their joint efforts.
I think when the Arihant goes on its deterrent patrol, this nuke armed plane will also go on patrol.

Where I am not clear is the attackers' objective? What did they seek? The Onion blowing up happened in first one hour of the 17 hr encounter. What happened during the later 16 hours? Did they take something else with their hostages?

Ramana,

I think you are correct about the Mehran incident involving Clown Jewels.

I also think you are incorrect about it having anything to do with those poor P3C Orions.

BRF is a forum heavy with mil-tech enthusiasts and, while that yields a lot of valuable analysis under many circumstances... I think it also biases us in ways we don't ordinarily realize. Sometimes we end up missing the forest for the trees. In this case we missed the fish molee/ chicken do-pyaza/dinner conversation for the Onions.

In the case of Mehran I think BRF analysis was hampered by the fact that we were partially blinded/hypnotized by the bright, bright flames wreathing the frying Onions!

My guess is the Onions per se are 400% irrelevant. They were set on fire because they are dispensable, but likely to attract attention... a classic diversionary tactic. While we all watched the Onions burning, that's when the real goals of the attack were achieved in the darkness.

I still don't buy Onions as a nuke delivery device or ground attack device of any consequence. What does it cruise at, 5-600 km/h? No doubt if it comes to that, Pakis will try to deliver nukes with every bail-gaadi they have, including Onions... but I do not believe this aircraft could be any sort of spear-point to their strategic plans.

As things stand they are the most useless aircraft Pakistan has (can you honestly see MMS sending IN into Karachi Harbour anytime soon?) Once destroyed, they would eventually be replaced for free (at US taxpayer expense), and of all the planes in Pakistan's inventory they were the least likely to be needed in the short term. Yet they were phoren, expensive-looking and people would be distracted by the fact that they were set alight. IMHO, we are chasing a red herring if we continue to emphasize the damn things in our analysis.

They happened to be there, so they were set on fire while Chinese engineers were grabbed (maybe they were attacked in the hope that American engineers working on them could also be grabbed.) Bums may have been present at Mehran, the whole thing may have been a bum-snatching operation, you are very right about that. However, I'm all but convinced the bums and the Onions were two separate things... onions were burned to distract people from the bum-snatching elsewhere on the base, that's it.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:21

abhijitm wrote:No NW operation
“We will undertake such an operation when it is in our national interest militarily,” the general said, describing North Waziristan as “calm and peaceful as it was weeks ago”
so khan is ordering "chhoooo", dog is only barking. Khan gives ultimatum, dog stuffs its tail behind. Whats khan gonna say? July is just 2 months away!

Doggie needs a nice big juicy bone.

Said bone needs to be stuffed in doggie's musharraf.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:22

Just one question. Are we sympathizing SSS or just discussing his murder, or both? Because I found his article in Asia Times a piece of sht planted by ISI. I am suspicious about his link with ISI.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:24

Or the good old carrots and stick policy.

Stick be used on doggie's mouth and carrot be stuffed in doggie's musharraf.

Guaranteed to get desired results.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Jun 2011 21:24

Rudradev the Orions are credible nuke delivery platforms - and in fact that would make the placement of bums in PNS Mehran more logical.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:25

SSS didn't deserve to die, right?
I mean his death would have been horrible. As a human being I am shocked and horrified.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:26

their elint and sigint capabilities might allow them to make a stealthy approach to mumbai... and free fall a big ol' bum

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:27

Gagan wrote:SSS didn't deserve to die, right?

Gagan ji, but we don't know that.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 21:30

shiv,
The picture of TSP has to be constantly updated. Early on it was a Modern Islamic State, the first one created since the colonial era. Then it fragmented into TSP and Bangladesh as ethnic nationalism resurged. It then changed to modern Sultanate under the Mamelukes( TSPA chiefs: Ayub Khan, Yahya, Zia, Mushy). After Af-Pak and Kunduz its again transforming to Somalia with nukes.

Its wrongly named as Pakistan. It should be named Pakjabistan.

Its a half-baked(un-Pak!) concoction with a creamy rotten layer of RAPE/TAP (Turco-Afgan-Persian) Ashrafs on a dysfunctional Pakjabi core (RAPE and Islmaist) which holds the Sindh (for sea access), KP (former NWFP to make Durand Line permanent) and Balochistan to curry US favor during Cold War. Now that FSU is gone there is no need for airbases in Balochistan to attack the underbelly of FSU. So Baloch can and should be set free. Call it Republic of Kalat.

They now use Islam to justify their evil. Narrate Pakistani Nights and throw in PUBH/Allah here and there. What will this do to aam abdul who is brought up on strict Koran is there to see with Qadirfication in full throtle.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 21:30

The scenario where the Orions will be nuclear delivery platforms is when they have been jerry rigged to carry one Babur or a Raad cruise missile.

The pakistanis might figure that they can fly the Orion in the Karachi-Mumbai air corridor and disguise it as a civilian airliner. Once close enough it has to fire off its missile and turn away.

Might even be successful.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 01 Jun 2011 21:32

abhijitm wrote:Just one question. Are we sympathizing SSS or just discussing his murder, or both? Because I found his article in Asia Times a piece of sht planted by ISI. I am suspicious about his link with ISI.

Well FWIW, SSS was a source whose information provided fodder for new hypothesis. He also went where few dared to go; the AQAM's lair. The amount of public source info available will be less than before. Further his death has shut up all the voices in TSP baying for TSPA blood. It is like another Salman Taseer. Though we would like TSP to burn for it misdeeds, you need voices that call a spade a spade. That is where he will be missed. He was about to sign up as a contributer to the LongWarJournal; perhaps that was the last straw since LWJ has of late been very clear about TSPA duplicity.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:40

deleted. duplicate post.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:41

What I am trying to say is journalism in pakiland is not free. ISI runs the media is a known fact. There is something fishy about SSS. I have to gather some material...

My only suggestion is lets not go overboard. He was a paki, and lets go by the thumb rule first.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 21:53

Gagan wrote:The scenario where the Orions will be nuclear delivery platforms is when they have been jerry rigged to carry one Babur or a Raad cruise missile.

The pakistanis might figure that they can fly the Orion in the Karachi-Mumbai air corridor and disguise it as a civilian airliner. Once close enough it has to fire off its missile and turn away.

Might even be successful.

Gagan, TSP believes in surprise. In 1971 they had the PNS Ghazi lurking around Vizag harbor days before the war started. It got sunk by Eastern Command promptly on discovery.

I know its against the grain, but I think the Onions were being rigged to carry nukes for the Arihant. I find it intriguing that Chinese were on base near the Onions late at night on a Sunday while the attack was going on.

They have many delivery options for attacking land targets in India : Ghauris, M-11s, F-16s, C-130s, donkey carts etc.

abhijitm · Post by **abhijitm** » 01 Jun 2011 21:55

one quick quote by SSS on who masterminded mumbai attack

The former army major, with the help of Ilyas Kashmiri’s men in India, hijacked the ISI plan and turned it into the devastating attacks that shook Mumbai onNovember 26, 2008 and brought Pakistan and India to the brink of a war

We know that a so called former army major is now a scapegoat to save ISI. This quote from SSS is pulling the same line on ISI favor.

Rajiv Lather · Post by **Rajiv Lather** » 01 Jun 2011 21:59

MY thoughts, forget about Orion-nuke and Orion-avionics connection. The reality may be bigger than this.

The state of Pakistan, as we know it, may unravel quicker than what most may have anticipated.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Jun 2011 22:03

ramana wrote: Gagan, TSP believes in surprise. In 1971 they had the PNS Ghazi lurking around Vizag harbor days before the war started. It got sunk by Eastern Command promptly on discovery.

I know its against the grain, but I think the Onions were being rigged to carry nukes for the Arihant. I find it intriguing that Chinese were on base near the Onions late at night on a Sunday while the attack was going on.

They have many delivery options for attacking land targets in India : Ghauris, M-11s, F-16s, C-130s, donkey carts etc.

Minor knitpick, weren't the PRCians and US guys in the military hotel on the base?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 22:04

Why dont you expound in the managing TSP Failure thread?

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 01 Jun 2011 22:10

Interesting things happening. Pakistaniyat is being discussed in the mainstream western media. Yesterday's Guardian had one piece on Hamid Gul and MO shunting and there was one on Asia Today's yesterday edition talking freely about the freedom related aspirations of the Baloch people.
Wow

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 01 Jun 2011 22:13

ramana wrote: Where I am not clear is the attackers' objective? What did they seek? The Onion blowing up happened in first one hour of the 17 hr encounter. What happened during the later 16 hours? Did they take something else with their hostages?

ramana garu

From what I hear, A plane left Mehran base carrying the Chinese immediately after the attack to an unknown destination.
It could be

1.Nuke angle
Some important Nuke components were indeed nearby Mehran base which IK and ISI top brass needed for the bomb he/they are building. Orions were being used for transporting radio active material/components into Pakistan from the sea where PLA Navy was parking its submarines. They did not need the planes anymore because they had been contaminated and would compromise further mission.America knows this and hence kept silent.This is the scariest possibility. Chinese might have been needed as the SME's.The time delay also matches this possibility because it would take time to handle such highly sensitive equipment.

2. Technology
Orions would have been stripped to bone by the Chinese of any sensitive equipment which they could use for their own imitation Orion. Chinese have an obsession for this particular plane especially after the Hainan incident. If Chinese are anyway involved they wouldn't let go of one plane let alone two orions. The delay might be due to assembling them in a second plane and smuggle out of Pakistan

Both have a Chinese involvement because they have a stake in Pakistan as an asset. They simply cannot let Americans walk in and boss around in what China considers its turf.

Brigade 313 and/or ISI is in war mode. They have no limits and no mercy. They can go to any extent to realize their goals. They are also on a very tight schedule.India must be alert to avoid any trap setup by IK/ISI to draw us into a War.I have a feeling that very soon there will be a Hijacking to secure some mullah from Pakistan's custody or India's custody. This would be the trigger point of a War.

Altair

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 22:14

The Pakistani army has a history of sudden collapse.

They can bear pressure only to a very early point, and then they break down. They are acutely aware of how termite ridden their system really is.
People have low morale, are less sure that their higher ups are working to save them to protect them from harm's way. If they see that a war is unwinnable, the tendency to wave the white flag is just around the corner.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Jun 2011 22:16

Rajiv Lather wrote:MY thoughts, forget about Orion-nuke and Orion-avionics connection. The reality may be bigger than this.
The state of Pakistan, as we know it, may unravel quicker than what most may have anticipated.

I suspect the same . Beard factor is now big enough to cause revolt. Civilian control was never there and now military is loosing control over Hoor Pasand Mujjars. Are we watching the begining of Somalialization in the land near our Western border?

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Jun 2011 22:18

Killing a good Muslim is a huge crime in Islam. So the ISI officers who killed him committed blasphemy? I just wonder how does a common religious Pakistani reconcile with these issues?

Oh was he. Killing a Muslim is easier simply because he can be classified as working for a foreign agency. Which SSS was. Then by extension some of his writings if he wanted a job there had to be objective and thus pissing off ISI/ PA/ 313 guess a hundred others groups that consider themselves to be purer flag bearers of the Ghazwa. Thus by the same contortion of logic he becomes CIA/ RAW/ MOSSAD and eligible to kill. Important here is for Islamists you are not a good muslim if you do your Namaz and be a good family man. Indulging in Jihad is the ultimate. SSS did not do that and was working for an Italian company and thus was possibly a Munafiq. Killing is never an issue for Islamists.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 22:26

shyamd wrote:
...
Minor knitpick, weren't the PRCians and US guys in the military hotel on the base?

I didn't see that report. Can you find it? If that is true then the terrorist squad also attacked that hotel/bldg?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 22:27

NOW is the time more than any, where Pakistan is being squeezed and put in a very very tight corner.

They have a 1 month deadline to kill/capture 4 dreaded terrorists, which the US knows they are shielding.
The Pakistanis won't take out one of those - Haqqani.
Another one of those is their own flesh and blood - Iliyas Kashmiri.
The remaining two are expendable, but there will be a horrible cost that will be incurred by the Pakistani Army and the nation if they take these two out.

My God! These guys did 9/11 on the US, I shudder to think what they will do to Pakistan if they fear for their lives!

Two possibilities arise now:
1. Pakistan will try everything to squeeze out of this deadline: How have they done this in the past? And what was Iliyas Kashmiri's and ISI's alleged aim for doing 26/11? An Indo-Pak warlike situation so that the heat comes off the Pakistan Army and Ilias Kashmiri alike.

2. If there is no war, or if Pakistan tries to take these guys out, then a JDAM inside Pakistan is a distinct possibility. For Pakistan's own sake, their bums had better be New-clear bums and Hydrogen (sulphide) bums. Because these 4 guys and their organizations now have their backs against the wall.

Yet another day of reckoning approaches for Pakistan.

No need to say this - India needs to be really really careful for the next 2-3 months or so.
(I see that MMS has already reviewed the nuclear and security situation a few days back)

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 01 Jun 2011 22:33

ramana wrote:
shyamd wrote:
...
Minor knitpick, weren't the PRCians and US guys in the military hotel on the base?

I didn't see that report. Can you find it? If that is true then the terrorist squad also attacked that hotel/bldg?

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/27052011/page6.shtml

The raid: The actual number of terrorists who carried out the attack on PNS Mehran could not be verified, but an estimated six to nine gunmen entered the compound through gutters. They blew up a guard’s room and split into three groups. One group headed for the PC3 Orions, another went to the hotel compound where the American and the Chinese resided, and the third engaged the rapid response teams killing at least 11 and seriously injuring eight.

According to a senior American source, “US contractors were working on a project with the Pakistan Air Force” in the base, “but were escorted safely”.
The Interior Ministry said they were mostly foreigners, perhaps from Uzbekistan. “Three militants were killed in a gunbattle and the fourth is believed to be under the rubble,” Interior Minister Rehman Malik said.

Investigations continue into what is being seen as one of the biggest security and intelligence failures in the recent history. “We are looking for the black sheep among us,” said a senior naval officer asking not to be named. “It is impossible that the terrorists could have known precise details of our assets and personnel without intelligence from within.”

A Special Services navy official from the Mehsud tribe arrested recently had confessed to working with terrorists to plan attacks on sensitive naval installations. “The most remarkable thing is that the navy did not share these details with other intelligence agencies.”

AK Chishti is a good source too. He is incensed by the SSS killing and is vowing all sorts of moves against the TSPA. He met SSS last week.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Jun 2011 22:35

I think Onions with phyjjicks packages are being confused on the roles they can play - between counter-force vs counter-value. Most of the folks here talking about Onions sneaking into India and dropping he packages are talking about the latter. That possibility is highly unlikely, as ramanaji has already pointed out. They have better capability delivery mechanisms than a slow moving plane.

But an Indian SSBN with its current "thinner missile" loadout needs to be near the paki waters to "touch" their northern counter value targets. So in essence this could be their equivalent of NASR in naval arena. Figure a way to triangulate the SSBN (via agosta, rigged up fishing trawlers, drop sonars etc) and pepper the area with a phyjicks package or two. No one can blame them, as they have the same excuse as NASR "we used the nukes in our own territorial waters against invading Indian forces"

The way out is to follow the soviet model of launching from sanitized sea-air space. ie, an "aviation cruiser" led group accompanies the SSBN and swats out the onions or other lurkers to create a bigger space for the SSBN to operate in peace. But that would have its own headache in the matter of time element and positioning etc. again purely FWIW. I dont think the thin ladies might be working out as expected, unless it has more range than publicised or maybe has a more conventional role like hystrike concept.

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 01 Jun 2011 22:40

Rudradev wrote: In the case of Mehran I think BRF analysis was hampered by the fact that we were partially blinded/hypnotized by the bright, bright flames wreathing the frying Onions!

+1 saar. If onions were indeed the only targets then all 10 of the attackers might have fled the scene within couple of hours onlee and that too without any caualities. The 17 hour seige seems redundant in that case.

Frying of onions is a spectacular by-product. The real recepie of what was up in the menu is unkown to us so far. TSPA knows it and most probably unkil too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 22:41

26/11 as 'heat comes of TSPA' is debateable. The TSPA is not a warlike force but a group of thugs in uniform.
I think 26/11 was an act of pure terrorism by the Islamist factions of TSPA: regular (ISI, PN and TSPA) and irregular (Deadly, Rana and their support network). I really dont think they would have withstood if India attacked. None of their formations were at battle readiness etc.

BTW US was expecting India would get involved at that time.

-----------

ShyamD, Thanks for that clears up some confusion in my mind. Need to re-connect the dots. So if the squad was six to nine and they split into three groups, how many went for the hotel? We know four died in the Onion area eventually.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Jun 2011 22:51

This VOA report shows a picture of a coffin carrying SSS. So whats the earlier report of him having been buried already by ISI?

VOA Report

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 01 Jun 2011 22:53

forgot to add - I am not guessing the objectives of the attackers. The onions might have been targets of opportunity is the one I agree with the most. But chinese near onions story stands on its own and needs a close watch.

I would consider the Mehran raid like that Gulf War1 "routine" bomb raid that tore up a part of the roof at Tarmiyah to reveal a calutron facility. Something no one apparently thought saddam had or would go down as a route of enrichment. Accidental unveiling of weird thinking.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 22:55

I don't know what to make of the nuke + Orions + both US and Chinese personnel present on the base.

To me these things are as they have been described, that both teams were working on their respective aircraft.
I don't know if nukes were involved or not. No open source has commented on this, except one story which stated that this was a dry run for an attack on a Nuke base.

To me, the more significant thing seems to be the news confirming the Al-Qaida has sympathizers in the Pakistan Navy.
Now this news is of utmost importance, because it now raises a lot of questions.
1. This means that the jihadis and terrorists have sympathizers in all branches of the defence services, including the people who guard the new-clear bums.
2. Why is Al Qaida so interested in the Pakistani Navy? The Navy doesn't have any significant role in deciding the running of Pakistan, that role is played by the Pakistan Army and the ISI.
Why the PN?

So the first thing that comes to my mind is, that the Al Qaida was into planning an attack where the PN or PN personnel would play a role.

Could it be that the real aim of the attack was to hold the Americans and the Chinese hostage and negotiate for their colleagues, the Orions and the attack on the base was the distraction? Seems plausible. Also the attack, the loss of the Orions sends a message to the Pakistanis - next time co-operate with us when we ask you the first time, don't make us say 'please'.

Pakistan will be getting more orions very soon, and refurbished ones. Their fleet is going to be more than they'll ever need. So the loss of these two only affects them in the short term until the half a dozen or so arrive from the US.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 01 Jun 2011 22:59

Also if the guys killed in the PNS mehran attack were Uzbeks or Chechens, then it is possible that these guys might be ex-military from these nations.

If so, the Pakistani N-SSG got owned by their much better trained colleagues from the former CIS nations.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 01 Jun 2011 23:07

hnair wrote:
But an Indian SSBN with its current "thinner missile" loadout needs to be near the paki waters to "touch" their northern counter value targets. So in essence this could be their equivalent of NASR in naval arena. Figure a way to triangulate the SSBN (via agosta, rigged up fishing trawlers, drop sonars etc) and pepper the area with a phyjicks package or two. No one can blame them, as they have the same excuse as NASR "we used the nukes in our own territorial waters against invading Indian forces"

hnair garu, I still don't get it. The most difficult part of taking out an SSBN is finding it. In the scenario you describe, the PN has already managed to determine the SSBN's general location using an SSK (Agosta), the P3Cs themselves, etc. If that is so, they can easily pinpoint the accurate location using the Agosta's active sonar, sonobuoys dropped from the P3C, Z-9 helicopter's with dipping sonar,etc. Depth charges dropped from multiple platforms plus torpedos from the Agosta and P3C will do the rest. Nukes are completely unnecessary.

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 01 Jun 2011 23:08

Gagan wrote:Also if the guys killed in the PNS mehran attack were Uzbeks or Chechens, then it is possible that these guys might be ex-military from these nations. If so, the Pakistani N-SSG got owned by their much better trained colleagues from the former CIS nations.

Anoher theory doing the rounds on the Internet is that most of these guys were from Iran/Baloch border (possible Jundullah types). Maybe a Press TV plant. I will try and find that link.