Bharat Rakshak

Okay forget TSP. What prevents GOI from coming down hard on IM if there really is such an outfit? Why can't they hunt them down? There is no nookular threat against that.

Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi has expressed the apprehension that Wednesday's serial bomb blasts in Mumbai could be a “dress rehearsal” for a bigger terror attack in the country.

WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED? i remember their was an incident involving ammunition laden truck fire after which he took leave during parakram.

Dilbu wrote:Okay forget TSP. What prevents GOI from coming down hard on IM if there really is such an outfit? Why can't they hunt them down? There is no nookular threat against that.

M the muslim factor in IM prevents such an action.

gakakkad wrote:WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED? i remember their was an incident involving ammunition laden truck fire after which he took leave during parakram.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/20army.htm

shravan wrote:Yes compared to the Congress, they were in power only from 1998 to 2004. So much shorter…however they had an ample opportunity to do something in 2001. Our very seat of visible democracy was attacked! And we did nothing. Our Govt – BJP or Congress – just does not have any balls to do NOTHING.

Take the nooklear weapons out of the equation and you have a different story. So the question is…who really is scared? Them or Us?

There are two things I want to say amidst claour that india should fight / overtly attack pakis.

1. If a rich guy fights a beggar, the rich guy's suit gets torn too
2. Money is a coward. Be prepared for flight of capital if ever there is insecurity amongst investors.

Is the price of war worth jeopardizing indias march towards development ? I think it is preferable to pay back pakistan in the low tech game of sabotage, propoganda and letthem split balochistan and maybe create a pashtunistan.

A profile on Lt Gen Kapil Vij...he passed away in August 2010 to cancer.

http://defencelive.blogspot.com/2010/08 ... -away.html

Rakesh wrote:

gakakkad wrote:WHAT EXACTLY HAPPENED? i remember their was an incident involving ammunition laden truck fire after which he took leave during parakram.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/20army.htm

but we surely must be much better prepared now.

Rakesh wrote:Sir, the NDA led govt. did take that decision. However, what's important is the true reason. Yes, Lt. Gen. Kapil Viz was a fine general, let down by structural issues.

Roy Saar, he was let down by our spineless netas who were born as eunuchs. He came a little closer to the IB than he should have during the stand off. He should have got a medal for that, but rather he was posted out.

Stop believing that the BJP are saints and the Congress are devils. They are both devils.

shiv wrote:

Carl wrote: Why isn't the Non State Actor BS a game that two can play?

Carl pliss excuse me for throwing a piskology bomb at you.

In other words our covert action ability is immaterial for prevention of terror in India and is useful only to make us feel satisfied that "we are also doing something". Unfortunately for people who are losing mothers and fathers or sons and daughters in India there can be no such satisfaction.

Shiv ji, in response to the piskology part:

1. Last night the anger Jibreel appeared to me and gave me the ayat "Revenge is sweeter than sex." There is some satisfaction to be had in retribution that is seen to be what it is. But this was not the main point.

rajanb wrote:Unkil or Ru or China never advertise.

2. Unkil or Ru or China are not seen to be docile cows by TSP, the wider Ummah or the rest of the world. They surely have covert ops, but they make a massive show of strength too when it matters.

3. The piskological points TSP gets with its own people as well as vis a vis the frustrated Indian is negated when an Indic terror group claims credit for a revenge hit inside the snakepit.

4. Last but not least, for our own internal security, law and national integration: Striking inside TSP creates respect and relief in the eyes of Indian Moslems, even the chutiyas with divided loyalties. Most of them are innocent citizens who fear reprisals or blame when such things happen. We see even here on BRF some people turning on Indian Moslems to "clean up the bad apples before we tackle TSP". This introversion is not right for national discourse. Cleaning up the bad apples within is a matter of the law and should be done anyway. Striking at the heart of TSP and claiming it is a huge morale asset. Plus its deniable.

from globalsecurity
"In early January 2002 Lt Gen Kapil Vij, General Officer Commanding of the strike corps involved in the build-up deployed in the Rajasthan sector on the Indo-Pak border, proceeded on leave amidst conflicting reports about the reason. In view of the prevailing situation, the government asked Lt Gen B S Thakur to take charge pending approval by the Cabinet committee on appointments. General Vij was carrying out new tactics a little too close to the International Border for the government's comfort. Removing Lt. Gen. Kapil Vij, suddenly and unceremoniously from the command of 2 Corps, sent shock waves throughout the serving soldiers as well as war veterans alike. The Defence Ministry termed as "totally baseless" reports that Lt Gen Kapil Vij had been shifted from the strike 2 Corps due to "external pressure or at the direction of the Prime Minister's Office".

According to one report, Lt.-Gen. Vij was replaced by Lt.-Gen. B. S. Thakur because Vij went beyond his brief and moved the 111 missile regiment. US satellites photographed them and confronted New Delhi with evidence. The Indian government's position all along was that the Indian military build-up was conventional, and there would be no nuclear posturing.

According to another version, Vij's mistake, according to some reports, was to take his war mandate seriously. His armor was pushed close to the border, and the soldier protested instructions from Western Army Commander Lt-Gen. Surjit Singh Sangra to pull back. As part of an unofficial understanding, the Indian Army keeps its armored elements east of the Indira Gandhi Canal, which by and large runs parallel to the border. The Pakistani armor keeps a similar distance on its side of the border. Reports said that 2 Corps elements penetrated this buffer, moving up to a distance of just 2 km short of the border.

As of early 2002 it was reported that Western Command's II Corps had been reinforced by the 31st Armored Division from Central Command.

In May 2002, it was reported that the II corps, usually based in Ambala, had moved its armored and mechanised units. The movement of armoured units is always closely watched because they are perceived to be assault forces in times of conflict in the plains. Other mobilised hardware include bridging equipment and field artillery. This series of movements began around late April 2002. The movements were possibly part of an exercise that has been codenamed either "Operation Parakram II" and/or "Operation Brahmashava". The movements were confined largely to the Suratgarh-Ganganagar area in Rajasthan but could be covering a part of Punjab as well. This is roughly the time for the 1 and 2 (both strike) corps to conduct its exercises."

Rakesh wrote:

SRoy wrote:We were few hours from rolling across IB with heavy armour and air borne ground attack raids. Please talk to the people those were part of Op Parakram deployment.
The strories that our IT bosses pressed upon GoI to hold back may be partly true or maybe fairy tales. Even if true that was not the factor for not carrying out the plans.

However, the allegation that NDA govt. too didn't act is a media propaganda to make a equal equal with congress govt.

The real factor – back then and even now – is the nooklear weapon. Our politicians are scared of them. They are bluffing and our netas on both sides of the political spectrum have fallen for it -> hook, line & sinker. We will not attack, as long as that noose is hanging over our head. We are scared, definately scared.

And I am not making an allegation, our politicians did nothing during Operation Parakram either. Why did our netas post out the Lt Gen who moved his troops closer to the IB just because Colin Powell made a noise about it? We lost a fine general that day.

IMO, calling nuclear weapon as the real factor is plausible, but also a conveniently plausible excuse to cover our establishment's lack of cojones, and our institutional inability to face down the Pakistani habit of bluffing. From the Kandahar hijack, the Parliament bombing, Kargil, 26/11 are to me all suggestive of a single idea - that the Indian establishment and therefore the state does not have the will to retaliate.

Baikul wrote:IMO, calling nuclear weapon as the real factor is plausible, but also a conveniently plausible excuse to cover our establishment's lack of cojones, and our institutional inability to face down the Pakistani habit of bluffing. From the Kandahar hijack, the Parliament bombing, Kargil, 26/11 are to me all suggestive of a single idea - that the Indian establishment and therefore the state does not have the will to retaliate.

Which basically boils down to having no balls. Thanks Baikul for calling a spade, a spade.

Carl wrote:............

4. Last but not least, for our own internal security, law and national integration: Striking inside TSP creates respect and relief in the eyes of Indian Moslems, even the chutiyas with divided loyalties. Most of them are innocent citizens who fear reprisals or blame when such things happen. We see even here on BRF some people turning on Indian Moslems to "clean up the bad apples before we tackle TSP". This introversion is not right for national discourse. Cleaning up the bad apples within is a matter of the law and should be done anyway. Striking at the heart of TSP and claiming it is a huge morale asset. Plus its deniable.

FWIW, endorsed.

Out of curiosity, has MMS made any statement?

Rakesh wrote:............Which basically comes down to having no balls..................

Yes.

And, on a related note, claims that we 'will give it back to them in our own way/ via undercover ops/ etc' is a convenient fig- leaf for our establishment to hide their lack of will.

The older I get the more I believe that if you wish to be respected and even feared, don't just display your strength. Use it.

In this world at least, there are few alternate options.

have all the concerned expressed their "deepest sympathies" ? i guess that's it for this one then...

We have complete paralysis on decision making. This would not even warrant anything more than the usual platitudes..

Cosmo_R wrote:Out of curiosity, has MMS made any statement?

So far only Modi has made a statement. He expressed the apprehension that Wednesday's serial bomb blasts in Mumbai could be a “dress rehearsal” for a bigger terror attack in the country.

>>don't just display your strength. Use it. In this world at least, there are few alternate options.

More to the point, we have already exhausted the alternative options. Repeatedly. To the extent that no other country in the world would even consider.

suryag wrote:from globalsecurity
According to one report, Lt.-Gen. Vij was replaced by Lt.-Gen. B. S. Thakur because Vij went beyond his brief and moved the 111 missile regiment. US satellites photographed them and confronted New Delhi with evidence. The Indian government's position all along was that the Indian military build-up was conventional, and there would be no nuclear posturing.

As of early 2002 it was reported that Western Command's II Corps had been reinforced by the 31st Armored Division from Central Command.
In May 2002, it was reported that the II corps, usually based in Ambala, had moved its armored and mechanised units.

Chhota muh badi baat.

But this is BS. Psy ops. Are our generals indisciplined warlords that they do things of their own?
A plan failed and a scapegoat was to be found as simple as that.

The wounded are the unfortunate ones - most will be scarred for life and have complications which many in our system will suffer through with little or no help.

This is happening every time if India talks to Pakistan. Period. We need to not just stop talking but just cut off all diplomatic relations. It could be apprehensions in Pak that something needs to be done to stop the bhaichara in order to keep the Army unity. Or it could be a system inside Indian government which simply does not want the BS called Indo-Pak talks.

Cosmo_R wrote:Out of curiosity, has MMS made any statement?

Made a very short statement: Remain calm! Really!

Muppalla wrote:This is happening every time if India talks to Pakistan. Period. We need to not just stop talking but just cut off all diplomatic relations. It could be apprehensions in Pak that something needs to be done to stop the bhaichara in order to keep the Army unity. Or it could be a system inside Indian government which simply does not want the BS called Indo-Pak talks.

Muppalla garu,

Those talks are required for fooling the Indian public after the bomb blast.
if the talks are not there, what will the congress show as doing to the Indian public??

They cannot comprehend to take the next step from the "no talking" to anything.

Cosmo_R wrote:Out of curiosity, has MMS made any statement?

Yes.

I strongly condemn the bomb blasts in Mumbai this evening. I have asked the Chief Minister of Maharashtra to do whatever is possible to provide relief to the injured and to the families of the deceased citizens. I have also asked Union Home Minister, Shri P Chidambaram to provide all possible expert assistance to the state government. I appeal to people of Mumbai to remain calm and show a united face."

"Silent n peacful candel light march at INDIA GATE on 14th July 2011 at 7.45 PM..In wake of terriost attack in mumbai..Pl RT"

This is perfect oppertunity to drop all the Hoorirats near the blast areas and let people know these buggers are part of the same terrorist cabal who did the blasts. It is a bad situation but it still can be used for neutralizing some overt,overground dirty elements working for our enemies.

This attack will irrevocably damage the image of Mumbai! ANd it is true! Mumbai IS UNSAFE now. And the blame lies both with local and central governments.

saadhak wrote: MMS pravachan: I strongly condemn the bomb blasts in Mumbai this evening. I have asked the Chief Minister of Maharashtra to do whatever is possible to provide relief to the injured and to the families of the deceased citizens. I have also asked Union Home Minister, Shri P Chidambaram to provide all possible expert assistance to the state government. I appeal to people of Mumbai to remain calm and show a united face."

My pravachan to him: dig a ditch and bury yourselves like the ostrich.
On second thoughts, that is what exactly he is doing.

Absolutely no talk of catching the terrorists.

Neela wrote:This attack will irrevocably damage the image of Mumbai! ANd it is true! Mumbai IS UNSAFE now. And the blame lies both with local and central governments.

Yawn and a bigger yawn to all those expecting anything from congress, Sonia/MMS.

this is not even a drop compared to mumbai terrorist attack on 26/11. What happened then? Atleast dossiers/aka toilet paper were sent. This time even that will be saved and will be written by the finance babu as money saved.

All the revolving chairs of politicians is complete and those who resigned/dismissed are at the same positions now. Dont expect anything else.

Neela, that's the second time you are taking that line in this thread. Any specific reason?
The language is interesting.

Neela wrote:This attack will irrevocably damage the image of Mumbai! ANd it is true! Mumbai IS UNSAFE now. And the blame lies both with local and central governments.

nothing will damage the image of mumbai. control yourself. the terrorist want u to think in that fashion.

ravi_ku wrote:

saadhak wrote: MMS pravachan: I strongly condemn the bomb blasts in Mumbai this evening. I have asked the Chief Minister of Maharashtra to do whatever is possible to provide relief to the injured and to the families of the deceased citizens. I have also asked Union Home Minister, Shri P Chidambaram to provide all possible expert assistance to the state government. I appeal to people of Mumbai to remain calm and show a united face."

My pravachan to him: dig a ditch and bury yourselves like the ostrich.
On second thoughts, that is what exactly he is doing.

Absolutely no talk of catching the terrorists.

That would be a great day when he says something like "We have to teach these b******* a lesson now, enough is enough!"

Zee News reporting 2 scooters recovered with batteries that were removed and used as batteries for the IEDs.
Total 7 IEDs -- 3 used at Zaveri Bazar, 3 at Opera House and 1 at Dadar (in tiffin box)
Blasts triggered via cell phones
-- per reporting on Zee News.

Oh! how we should have led General Paddy sort out pakees in 2002....he had planned well!

I'm not too concerned with what MMS or Modi or any politico says now; chances anyway are that they all are going to indulge in babble or posturing or rabble rousing.

I only wish we could become a state where you just knew that discrete, measurable and heavy retaliation was coming down the pike.

rohitvats wrote:Oh! how we should have led General Paddy sort out pakees in 2002....he had planned well!

what was the possible scenario then ? What would padmanabhans strategy have been ?

JE Menon wrote:Neela, that's the second time you are taking that line in this thread. Any specific reason?
The language is interesting.

OT but still....economy and growth rate is the solution to everything - this not just from one thread. The financial capital of India has taken 5 big hits.

Neela wrote: OT but still....economy and growth rate is the solution to everything - this not just from one thread. The financial capital of India has taken 5 big hits.

yet it continues to be the financial capital. yet we keep on growing.

rohitvats wrote:Oh! how we should have led General Paddy sort out pakees in 2002....he had planned well!

Does anyone have a recording of the good Generals press conference? The one in which he made the comment about bulls fighting regardless.